Todd Howard is a legendary video game designer at Bethesda Game Studios. He led the development of the Elder Scrolls series and the Fallout series, and an upcoming game Starfield. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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EPISODE LINKS:
Bethesda: https://bethesda.net
Bethesda Game Studios: https://bethesdagamestudios.com
Creation Club: https://creationclub.bethesda.net

PODCAST INFO:
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Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41

OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
0:55 - Simulation
2:51 - NPCs
11:42 - Daggerfall and Arena
19:55 - Bethesda
28:19 - Video game graphics
34:38 - The essence of a video game
39:27 - Redguard
44:27 - Creating open worlds
52:06 - Superintelligent NPCs
57:00 - Starfield
1:16:42 - The Elder Scrolls 6
1:36:03 - Fallout
1:43:11 - Character creation
1:48:13 - Quests & items
2:01:58 - Xbox
2:07:24 - Greatest game of all time
2:17:40 - Day in the life
2:25:34 - Advice for young people
2:29:02 - Fallout TV show
2:33:34 - Indiana Jones game
2:39:46 - Meaning of life

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You know you're going to miss it, it's arbitrary.

We really try to, you know, keep ourselves honest because it will let you know where you're at, right?

When I first playable, we want to be done with prototyping or design by this date, we want to have a first playable this date, we want to have this, but look, you know, things happen.

Pandemic happens, people go home, it's throws everything off or, you know, what you needed to do because we're not just like making a game and then moving everybody on, what you needed to do, like Skyrim was so popular, we kept people on that game for longer.

So it delayed a little bit, We were doing a Fallout 4 at the time, because we can't, you know, hey, we really shouldn't move the people on the Fallout yet, because we're doing these things in Skyrim and we should.

So it just sort of keeps you honest for where you're at.

Does it get super stressful as you get closer?

Are you sure you tried to avoid announcing anything?

I've announced, you know, Starfield, we were pretty loud with a release date that we then had to delay, so.

It was, it was, but it was the right thing to do.

Like when you sat down and looked at it, like this is not ready?

It's not an exact science, but you can look at what needs to be done and the amount of time you have.

And we've done it in the past where we can get it done.

And so you're fighting that personal belief that you can get something done.

But there's a lot of things that go into release date with marketing and publishing.

And, you know, we've reached a point where on Starfield where it was pretty clear to us, even though you want to say you can get it done, that the risk involved with that to the fans, to the game, to the team, to the company, we're part of Xbox now, to everybody was we should really move it and give it the time it needs.

So you mentioned part of Xbox, Microsoft bought Bethesda and Zenimax for $7.5 billion.

Well, what's it like joining the Xbox team?

You know, when your company goes through a change like that, no matter what it is, even if it's somebody that you've worked with for a long time, you never know what you're in for, you hope.

And I had worked with them for, since we started doing console stuff with Morrowind, was, you know, they came to us, came to me and, hey, you should make this game for the Xbox.

And so when they were making that console, had a great experience with them.

And so I guess the point is, we felt that we had a very good relationship with everybody there, and we understood what their culture was, but you never really know.

And I mean this honestly, it's been awesome.

That the culture inside of Microsoft and Xbox that people see from the outside is the culture inside, the way they talk about players, the way they'll invest in the players, the risks they'll take, the thoughtfulness from Phil Spencer on down has been, you know, I feel really, really lucky.

And then a game like Starfield where, look, we've had a lot of success with the games that you talked about, but we've never been kind of the platform seller, you know, the game for a platform for a period of time.

And so, you know, there is a lot of pressure there.

Is there a chance that Starfield is exclusive to Xbox?

So extra pressure also creating a new world.

Yeah, it's new, but keep in mind, for us that exclusivity is not unique, even though we've done PlayStation stuff, and I think the PlayStation 5 is just an insane machine.

They've done a great job, and we've had great success on PlayStation.

We were traditionally a PC developers in the beginning.

We transitioned to Xbox, became our lead platform.

Like, Morrowind's basically exclusive to Xbox.

Oblivion was exclusive to Xbox for a long period of time.

So we've done a lot of, like, our initial stuff is all Xbox.

So we get in development and saying we're focused on Xbox and it's not abnormal for us in any way.

And from a development side, I, you know, I like the ability to focus.

So our ability to focus and say, and have help from them, you know, the top engineers at Xbox to say, we are going to make this look incredible on the new systems is like, from my standpoint, it's just awesome.

What's the difference in creating the console versus the PC?

I also have to admit, I've never, is this shameful?

I've never played Skyrim or any of the games you've created on Xbox.

I mean, look, there's the obvious interface part between mouse and keyboard and then a controller, but when you're looking at hardware, PCs, it's tough, right?

Because you're looking at, well, you know, what are their driver versions?

You know, what kind of monitor do they have?

What is the actual refresh rate of X, Y, and Z?

But if, you know, anyone will tell you, give me the hardware that I know I'm writing it for, you know this.

And the Series X is just a incredible machine.

You know what it is, and now that we're part of Xbox, getting the people who built it to show you how to make it really, really dance is just awesome.

Do you get people that enjoy, people that do both PC and Xbox, that enjoy Xbox more?

Like if they have a choice, that they enjoy it.

I think that depends on, and look, now that you can kind of cross, you can take your save and go between and all those things.

If you have the Game Pass PC version of it versus Steam.

So there's a Microsoft, so this is gonna be on Game Pass.

And then you can, yeah, if you can take it from PC through Game Pass.

But I think it depends on like, for me, like what's my physical mood?

Right, like The actual physicality of it is what determines where I want to play.

Do I want to be 2 feet from a thing right now?

I am more of a console player just because I sit at my PC at work all day.

So when I get home and I wanna play something, I was like, I am a sofa screen controller person.

So you've created some of the greatest games ever.

I think there's, the question would be, what's the best game of all time?

All right, all right, just give me a second.

You should read it, basically someone who grew up in Russia.

Yeah, I'm sure there's an interesting story.

The fact that there's a book about Tetris is fascinating.

I would love to find out more, but I think I would put, personally, I would put Skyrim.

At number 1 for me, which is tough, however you put it, because you could also make the case out of the Elder Scrolls series, like what do you actually value more?

If you put Tetris and Super Mario up there, then like the credit goes to Morrowind maybe over Skyrim.

I don't know where the biggest leaps are, but overall I think it's Skyrim.

But for you, if you're not allowed to pick any of the games you were involved with, what are some interesting candidates for you that are just games that inspired the world, impacted the world, shook the world in terms of what video games are able to do.

Well, first, I'm just sort of like hearing you say that you think Skyrim's the best game of all time is quite, like, thank you, and it's, you know, incredible thing to hear.

And, you know, when I think about, well, there's a couple answers.

There's ones that are, like, personal to me.

And Ultima Online, first, you know, really visual online world in that way.

But for me, that was a virtual fantasy world where I had, you know, you could bake bread, you could pick all this stuff up.

I mean, anyone who's played Ultimas and plays our stuff can see the kind of touchstones and callbacks to that or inspirations.

And the other thing that I loved about Ultima was, actually, they were all different, right?

That they iterated and there weren't necessarily what I'll call a plus 1 sequel outside of Ultima VII Part II, clearly a plus 1 sequel, but they each had their own tone.

I love like the boxes, You know, it's something that we get into as well.

I love this idea that a game also is this tangible thing.

You buy the cardboard boxes and the way they were designed and Ultima VII is black and Ultima VIII is the fiery gate and the paintings on them.

that break your heart a little bit, that that culture is a big gone?

And that's also why I like, you know, this goes to video gaming or any other digital things where digital ownership has great value to people.

So I like looking at my collections of games, even digitally.

I want to see nice, you know, in the same way you want to see nice album art, want to see nice cover art for our games.

And we spend a lot of time in them so that you take a look at Elder Scrolls and Morrowind Oblivion and Skyrim we want those boxes to look good next to each other.

Going back to the video games yeah you know I always mentioned Tetris because I think it's you know obviously I love virtual worlds and those kinds of things, but for the time and what an interactive like video game, sort of the simplest form, I sort of think you can put Tetris in front of just about anybody, and they'll enjoy it.

And it's got some moment of challenge, and it's just so elegant.

It's like, to me, this very pure game that only works because it's a video game.

And I think mobile games figured out some of the magic of Tetris, the simple.

You can really create that immersive experience without.

But for me, you know, the ultimate civilization.

As far as, you know, a grand strategy game.

Pac-Man I mentioned, in terms of bringing games into the mainstream in a way that captured people that nothing before it had.

Nintendo, probably the best game makers in the world still.

They know who they are, they know what they want to do, always in awe of what they create.

I gotta ask you about a game I haven't played, but people put up there as 1 of the greats, is Zelda Breath of the Wild.

A lot of it, yes, yes, it's fantastic, it's fantastic.

What do you think about, I mean, it's a very different experience, I've played other Zeldas than the open worlds you've created, but it is also an open world.

It is, it's my favorite Zelda, because I obviously like open world stuff.

And the 1 thing that they do really, really well is they don't constrain you.

Some people, you know, even some of the things we do constrain you a little bit more.

And you are constrained by the actual player abilities you haven't earned yet, not some arbitrary barriers.

And so I think this did a phenomenal job, it's a magical game.

What about, I mean, I just like asking about some open world.

A very different 1 is the world of either Grand Theft Auto or Red Dead Redemption.

I would put GTA 3, Grand Theft Auto 3 up there with the landmark kind of usher in the open world.

When that comes out on the PlayStation 2, even though there was GTA 1 and 2, this was an all new thing with the mobster storytelling.

Then Vice City's kind of a fast follow, which could be my favorite 1.

I think they're really phenomenally well-made games.

I think Red Dead Redemption 1 could be my favorite story.

Like, highly recommend finishing that game.

So you like both the story, you like the grittiness of it, because they have a bit of the, I guess if you like the fallout, there's the humor.

I don't know what it is, it's the lighthearted humor of it, but also the brutality of human nature is in there too.

And also some of the fun they create with the music when you drive and stuff like that.

You know, the satire on the world is just so well done.

I think they've just done a phenomenal job.

I could just sit here and list games forever.

I love all type, like sports, college football.

It's like, I would say this is a great role play.

Oh, you would actually keep getting a role?

It's a role-playing game, because I have all these characters.

I have like 60 characters, and they're all leveling up, and then I have to play them, and then the college ones, I like college football, they graduate, so you lose your players, and then they stop making the series, and I know the folks at EA, and they will say, I have bugged them, when is this coming?

They're doing it, so it's finally coming back.

you say is the greatest sports game of all time?

Well, it's NCAA football, you have to pick the year.

Oh yeah, yeah, but there's more teams, you get the college, you know, fight songs, there's more pageantry, and the players turn over.

They're only there for 4 seasons, so you have to, so, you know, it's more dynamic.

If you like European football slash soccer, FIFA's incredible.

Have you been paying attention to the game design of that world, of those worlds?

Yeah, and the thing people, I think, with those kind of games, it is really, like, or racing games, Forza, put up there, I love Forza, play them all.

When you have to recreate something that's real in the real world, say it's cars or it's sports games.

That's a really difficult task when people know how it should work.

Then you're gonna balance it for single player, the multiplayer parts of it, they get very, very competitive.

And in many respects, you're forced to put out a new version every year.

And I say forced in quotes, because they're, you know, you count them as big updates.

But it's a very, it's a much more difficult development process than I think people understand and how hard those teams work and know a lot of people who do it and I think they just do.

Yeah, look, there have been years where it feels like less was done and more was done, but I enjoy it every year.

What does a perfectly productive day in the life of Todd Howard look like?

So maybe not perfectly, but just like a perfectly average productive thing.

What, are you a morning person, evening person?

So there's things I'm like executive producing and then, you know, Starfield I'm directing.

So I sort of view that as that's an everyday thing.

Fortunately, I get to do a lot of stuff from look at the TV show we're making and this Indiana Jones game that's being developed at Machine Games, we get to look at that.

But, you know, the best really day or where I feel it's fulfilling is get to play some of a game, the game, we'll say Starfield, get to play some of Starfield, look at the problem set of what it is doing, and then get in a room with the other developers that I work closely with, and we solve that problem together.

So that's the most rewarding thing when you can say, okay, what do we want this to do?

What's the real player experience we want?

Where you know the actual tangible pieces as opposed to, the beginning, the pie in the sky part is always fun, but it's like anything is possible, that's fun, but it's not rewarding in the same way because you haven't solved something, whereas these are the elements you have to play with.

And you come out of it at the end of the day like, now that feels great.

So brainstorming about specific big picture, both big picture and very specific detail of a game that's not working, something's not working, you want to fix it, that kind of stuff.

Because you feel like, okay, you've made tangible progress on the actual build of the game, or something you played in the beginning of the day didn't feel great, you've figured out a solution with a group of people.

And then the next day you're like, yeah, that worked out.

So Internal to the studio, it's a lot of programming, a lot of art.

You have design, which breaks into some quest design, writing, systems design, who are doing all the treasure and the loot and the skill systems.

And then level design, who's making the spaces like those that you'll play through.

I can't remember if I mentioned art, a lot of artists.

They're hugely valuable in saying, hey, we broke your game in these magical ways, what are you gonna do about it?

Is the LÜ design team still hiring, how do I apply?

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Todd Howard: Skyrim, Elder Scrolls 6, Fallout, and Starfield | Lex Fridman Podcast #342