In this second part of Ralph Hänel’s story of his life in East Germany.

We hear of Ralph’s arrest by the Stasi and subsequent interrogation for 10 months.  

Ralph describes in some detail the arrest and his early days of imprisonment. He also details the techniques used to try and make him break and the pressure the Stasi also put on his mother.  

It’s an incredible insight into the workings of the Stasi from someone who was there and I am honoured that Ralph shared this story with us. 

We also hear about his court case and in the following episode we hear about his time in the Stasi prison in Cottbus which with its dark red brick façade was often referred to as the ‘Red Misery’.  

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I am delighted to welcome Ralph to our Cold War conversation…

There’s further information on this episode in our show notes which can also be found as a link in your podcast app here. Other episodes with Ralph are here https://coldwarconversations.com/episode177/ You can buy Ralph's book here  

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The doorbell rang and there were 3 young men on the outside, flipped their IDs, Ministry of State Security, and we would like you to get dressed and come with us just to clarify a few questions.

If you're new here, you've come to the right place to listen to first-hand Cold War history accounts.

Do make sure you follow us in your podcast app so that you don't miss out on future episodes.

This is the second part of Ralph Haenel's story of his life in East Germany.

In this episode we hear of Ralph's arrest by the Stasi and subsequent interrogation for 10 months.

Ralph describes in some detail the arrest and his early days of imprisonment, and he also details the techniques used to try to make him break and the pressure the Stasi put on his mother.

It's an incredible insight into the workings of the Stasi, from somebody who was there, and I'm honoured and humbled that Ralph has shared this story with us.

We also hear about his court case and in the following episode we hear about his time in the Stasi prison in Cottbus, which with its dark red brick facade was often referred to as the Red of Misery.

Now, I could really use your support to help me to continue to produce the podcast.

A simple monthly donation via Patreon will really help and you will get the sought after Cold War Conversations drinks coaster as a thank you and bask in the warm glow of knowing that you're helping to preserve Cold War history.

Listen to 1 of our Patreons tell you why they donated to the podcast.

Hi, I'm Sue Norton and I live in Dublin, Ireland.

I love Cold War Conversations because it offers a huge variety of recollections and analysis of the Cold War years in a conversational way.

It's fascinating to listen back through Cold War Conversations and increasingly comprehensive oral history.

Just go to coldwarconversations.com and slash donate.

So back to today's episode, I'm delighted to welcome back Ralph to our Cold War conversation.

Late spring 1988, a colleague, and I'm presuming this is a work colleague of yours, introduces you to a girl.

So there were 2 things happening at this time.

Number 1, this girl that I accidentally met, was introduced to, and she came with on the little trip that we did, and we seemed to hit it off.

And we seemed to have a great connection, was kind of, oh wow, what a coincidence and how things happen accidentally.

And this is the time where I started to think, I was already for years considering, I knew I wanted to be in the West.

I wanted to learn at this Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy which was in a real castle in the West.

It was just my life's dream and I knew I'm going to do this 1 day even though friends said get this out of your head you will never be able to train in this castle.

You might as well try to apply for a flight to the moon.

So, and she also then basically told me that she would be interested in joining if I would find a way to get to the West, if there would be a possibility.

And this was just 1 of my different ideas if we would get a passport.

And with this passport in Hungary, get across the border, There was a fast bus from Vienna to Budapest where the Hungarians went as viciously as the East Germans checking at the border and with those express buses, when there are only Austrians and West Germans in it, they hold their passport up, there's not much of a control.

So I thought, this might be a cool idea, had written to somebody in the West from Poland just to be on the safe side.

And then it came a day in August of 1988 that I asked, hey, come back tomorrow.

And she, oh, no, no, tomorrow I absolutely can't.

I said, a week ago you said you can't, she no.

And then the next morning I got up early, had to go to work and this is where the doorbell rang.

I thought, before going to work, must have been at 7 or so, doorbell rang and there were 3 young men on the outside and flipped their IDs, Ministerium für Staatssicherheit, Ministry of State Security, and we would like you to get dressed and come with us just to clarify a few questions.

There's a certain wording in German, Klärung eines Sachverhaltes, that sounds...

Everybody was picked up with this phrase and I thought at this moment they of course as always in German history they come in the morning to get you.

And then I was brought there and into the building.

The driver, the guy next to the driver, and 1 to the left and 1 to the right and 1 of them in the hallway opened his jacket and showed me his gun or made me see it and just nodded so be careful maybe because of the martial arts stuff they because typically you were picked up by 2 or 3 people I was picked up by 4 especially my daughter is very proud of it she said did they think you come food but so he said yeah maybe I don't know what they were thinking I

reckon they did I reckon they did I reckon they were worried about what you might do

yeah probably if they have watched just any kung fu movie from the west They must have had ideas what they think is going to happen.

So yeah, I was brought with 4 people with guns there.

When they came in the door, what was running through your mind at that point?

You're early, you have just gotten up, you have a plan for the day, you're completely caught off guard.

Literally, if somebody would say okay focus, go back to this moment what were you thinking I probably a blank would come up an empty a white space something I had no idea that was later I've talked to people in church circles who were familiar with people who were in the resistance, people who were demonstrating against what happened in the south, with the chemical factories in East Germany, environmental issues.

So I was literally thinking, okay, secret service, they wanna ask you a question.

And then there was a big, like in a Western, when this stuff blows from 1 side to the left just before the 2 heroes pull their guns.

So this quiet moment where everybody, where nobody moves, This is how I felt.

But you thought that they were arresting you because of kung fu or something else?

So and Then I came in and of course as it is, there's then 1 sitting in front of you, 1 is sitting next to you and 1 is standing behind you.

Those young men said, you have questions.

Oh yeah, we have many questions and we know already you have many answers and a lot we know already.

I thought, okay, I don't even know what this is about.

He said, in 2 weeks I'm flying to Prague.

So you're not planning to leave the country?

So have you done anything to plan leaving illegally our country?" He said, no.

And then in between the phone call, somebody picks up the phone.

I have to listen and put the receiver down.

Oh, before I thought we can still come to a compromise here, but it has turned greatly.

I don't know how this is going to end for you today.

And I thought, oh my gosh, say something, say anything.

As of course, they had such interviews, let us call it for now, always those were prepared by psychologists how to wear you down because then at 1 point lunch comes and you think, hello, I'm missing already half of my shift.

After work, I have to pick up my laundry from the laundromat and still meeting somebody tonight.

Oh yeah, no worries, we'll drive you later to work.

And then it continues and then somebody else sits there and then somebody comes in and whispers anything and then, okay, it has taken yet another turn.

Okay, looking at the others, you have to come with me and then looking at me, kind of shaking the head as if to say, how could you, how could you, to make you feel so guilty?

And then 1 guy was alone sitting there and he was, I still remember he looked very young.

He had glasses, a little bit broken in the middle, so about over his nose there was a little bit like a bandage.

And he had, even though he looked too young, he had white hair.

And I looked up to the ceiling, looked down, he looked at me.

I looked out of the window, looked back, he looked at me.

And it was of course part of the whole thing because they had the camera on.

And from the other room, they were looking at how nervous you get and how you start to twitch and so on.

And then they came back and basically 1 question after another, did you take actions in order to prepare documents to leave the country?

Did you look out for ways how to leave the country.

Eno, so yeah, those my colleagues here, they have tried to work with you.

But it has been decided as of now, we have to declare you, you are here to stay.

We have to declare you as being under arrest.

I thought, shit, they can't just arrest you.

There's nothing even, they have not put anything on the table.

They have not even mentioned the stuff that I thought I have done.

And then I was overnight in the first cell and all night long, the lights on.

And number 2 is a so-called suicide watch and then in the morning somebody knocked and I thought I'm now for the second day here nobody knows where I am he said get ready it's outside time fresh air and for some strange twisted reason I had in my mind I must have seen at 1 point a movie I go out and then there is this prison backyard and people with a chain and a ball walk the circle oh how long are you oh already 15 years Something like this.

I had this weird laughable image in my head.

Then I went out and the prison yard turned out to be yet another cell where on top was plastic.

So from there some fresh air came in and then there were 3 cells to the left 3 to the right and above them was a walkway where a guard with Kalashnikov was walking up and down and I stood in there thought am I waiting now to get into the prison yard or is this the prison yard maybe 9 square meters or so of concrete nothing else just concrete and then those 3 4 meter high walls and I stood there thought okay And then I just heard the guy from above, quiet down there.

I said, jeez, I only was clearing my throat.

And then I went up and in the afternoon, I had to pack my stuff, the bedding I had.

They had already taken everything from me the evening before.

So the procedure you have to go through with bent over and open wide and so on.

And I was put into another cell, there was already somebody in there.

When you, for the first time in your life, you are under arrest and then you're in a prison cell and there's somebody else in the same kind of tracksuit out attire as you.

Yeah, I later had much more time than that.

And we started to talk, you tell the story and then he for the first time told me there are 2 main lawyers in the country.

Vogel, now he's worldwide known, the spy trader who, which in the Tom Hanks movie, of course, was made famous.

Vogel, but he has the ear of Honecker, the party and country leader, the party chief.

And then there is somebody else who's paid by the West German church who's also taking care of political prisoners.

So you must have 1 of those two." I said, yeah, I do not intend to stay here.

I thought they must get me, but this was of course, this phase to wear you down so that you're happy the first time you see somebody, that you then confess what you did.

And then I was for the first time taking again and 1 day in, day out, sometimes at night.

And then he said, okay, we don't seem to have a cooperation I was trying to help you because my word the main interrogation officer they were all together 3 him the older the father type then the younger kind of a little bit like a buddy, but at times really harsh and hard, and then the bureaucratic office type, not bad, not good, who I just have to write down what you tell me, so all 3 had to wear you down.

Then the the fatherly type he was saying okay we have now what is it it's August let's say August 22nd or so or 25th I'm going soon on summer vacation Then my kid is going to school.

Then there's in the fall, the fall break.

Yeah, I have other cases I have to work with too.

I thought I can help you really quickly because we both have to get through this.

You are here, I cannot change it, you cannot change it.

We have to work together so that there's no other way, he said, about when I get other cases.

Otherwise, maybe I can get you out of your cell before Christmas 1 more time and we can talk.

I thought what, you would let me rot here for months, September, October, November and maybe in December.

And so piece by piece they say have you done this and you say yep sure so they wear you down but then it happens those little things said oh good yeah you had this and this for lunch today jeez that reminds you oh this soljanka soup you don't like it what was it 3 years ago yeah you were with this friend here on the way at the autobahn station and it was a little bit salty and you had them bring the soup back.

This is where they wanted to really shock you.

How can they know something that happened 3 years ago that there was a soup in some Autobahn highway restaurant that you didn't like and had returned to the kitchen?

If they know that, then they must know everything else.

And then I had a day where he said, okay, today it's getting really serious.

We are adding another paragraph of the crime law that you've done this and this now you will also be indicted as a basically as a spy working as a traitor of the country such it what is now going to happen Now they're adding a spy paragraph that is treason.

And he said, yeah, okay, you have to sign here.

I found in my Secret Service file this document that I had to sign that the indictment has been extended now and this new paragraph has been added.

I said, I'll send you now back because you soon have coffee time, you get your coffee in your cell.

He said, we had in our country until just a short while ago still the death penalty for that.

Okay, officially it's taken out of the law books.

And only because something is not in the law text anymore.

And you really, the first weeks I still thought I can help you, but now it has reached a level we will have to talk.

I don't know yet what we can do out of yet to save you." So it was basically indirectly threatened with the death penalty, which we'll do a little bit with you.

Altogether the interrogations went on for 10 months.

I really appreciate you sharing those details because it does quite graphically describe the psychological techniques that the Stasi were using to try and get you to talk.

Oh I found notes now where it says when the team of those interrogation officers they even were proud 1 of them said I am a trained psychologist I have a degree as a psychologist we take our work very serious And then in 1 tiny little handwritten paper in my secret files, secret service files, it says his unyielding willingness to leave for West Germany and the declared will of the parents to stay in the East has to be continued to drive a wedge into the family and to produce through targeted personal operation distrust and basically create loneliness.

The fatherly type interrogation officer, At 1 point, many months in, you get a little bit more brave.

Where I said, you know what, it was a nice day through the...

And no, it was actually 1989, my birthday.

On my birthday, the father type interrogation officer had ordered from the secret service canteen a real farmer's breakfast with real cutlery on a real porcelain plate.

That's only on the side 1 of the sarcastic stories.

So he thought it was a really nice gift to give me as it was my 25th birthday, the first quarter of a century in a person's life.

So this other day, around that time, I said, really, why am I in here?

The other stuff, that I may be able to use a passport that I didn't have yet, that I may flee via this bus or attempt to flee from Budapest to Vienna.

So you're being arrested for a thought, crime.

We only arrest people if they have really done something against the communist order and walk towards into the hands of our enemies who are trying to take down communism, the real paradise for the people.

Said, yeah, okay, but now why am I really here?

He said, well, it is not forbidden to do martial arts.

And you have, in a very short time, however you did it, created a network of little training groups.

And if you want to kill something, you take off the head.

And this of course is not found in any of the papers, it's not found in the verdict that couldn't be handed out for the safety of the people, done in a court procedure with no people allowed for the safety of the people where a sentence was announced 3 years and 6 months to protect the people.

A sentence that I have heard already half a year earlier from my interrogation officer.

But if I would be the judge and given the circumstances, I would, it's just like a lottery tip, but probably say 3 years and 6 months and half a year later that's exactly what I got.

Can I just ask you a few questions around those 10 months?

When they were describing lots of detail of obviously surveillance or information they were getting.

Did you suspect who was giving that information?

It was typically done in a context that it could have been let's say at least 234 people but it was always done that those were significant moments that they're telling you you were with your body in this pub out for a pint and when this goal in the soccer game was scored you said this and this.

A moment that then like a blinding light comes back into your memory and where you think, shoot, I exactly remembered this moment.

But there were several people around you so that you, under distress after all, and that you could not have pinpointed who did it, so to say.

But they did it, and sometimes with years of a distance to just, you were supposed to get this feeling that they're all present permanently, that they know everything, and that they're only waiting for you to admit what they know already.

With your cellmate that you mentioned, Did you fully trust him at the time?

In a way I've been asked as I've met him after he got in the evening, a little black and white portable TV in it.

The guards put the TV onto the toilet seat because you had the 2 beds, 2 stools in there, a table you could pull off the wall, and then a sink, cold water, and a toilet.

This was, I don't know, 12 square meters the most.

And this I found a little bit strange that we're getting TV.

It was just the time of the Olympic Games.

And that was the, you have to find in those times the funny moments.

And we then said, okay, when we get out of it, I think, when the next games 4 years later, those were the Barcelona games, I think.

So we both had said, when we get out and we make it to the West because we kind of knew already that most political prisoners are being sold to West Germany because East Germany urgently needed the hard cash, the foreign currency from West Germany.

So we will make it at 1 point, it's just a question of how long.

So we said we are going to meet in Barcelona and we buy tickets doesn't matter what it costs and then came the day where this new paragraph was announced to me during interrogation.

So I came back to the cell and he said oh jeez you look like crap what happened and I told him that this guy even talked about the death penalty and that it's now state treason that I'm being accused of and then he shoot which Olympic Games did I say again where we will meet up sorry I still have to laugh about it in all of that even we back then laughed about it he said he said I'll go to Barcelona and we meet 4 years later if this is enough.

We must have laughed probably a little bit silly.

Those are the moments where you think, oh, jeez, I think I'm about to lose it.

1 of my questions was, how did you deal with those 10 months mentally?

I think, yeah, looking back after the fact, I think it was the martial arts stuff because I was in the morning doing my exercises with other cellmates.

You were in no recognizable order or timing over those 10 months.

You were at the oddest time, sometimes you were with 1 together, let's say 3 days, and they said, bed 1, pack your things.

You were called Bed 1 or Bed 2 in the cell.

Another tool yet, besides not having a radio, not having a watch, barely ever getting newspapers to completely disconnect you from real life.

Together with people so that even there you should in nothing recognize or realize any kind of pattern.

You're supposed to be stripped so blank And that's what I wanted to say.

But some, they tried to do push-ups and then it was knocked against the door, stop it.

And I did my Kung Fu exercises and nothing was said.

1 of the really, really strange stories, 1 day the interrogation officer said, so you're okay with the exercises?

And I was just saying out of the blue, yeah, there's this 1 exercise, I have a poster of it at home and there I don't remember some of the things.

He said, well, maybe we can ask your mother that she can bring that poster.

At the next visiting time, a parent can visit you once a month for half an hour.

You weren't supposed to speak about the trial.

You couldn't speak about your future plans.

So you were sitting there, so, hey, mom, how is stuff?

And my mom told me later that when she was ordered into this interrogation officer, she was told to tell me to maybe I hadn't exercised for a week to take up my exercises again.

So I don't know what the plan was, the psychological game I was supposed to do to exercise.

And this is, I think, what saved me, that what saved me in the big house later too.

Yeah, it sounds like it's all part of their psychological game.

But when you saw your mother that first time, how many weeks or months was that after you'd been under interrogation?

My mum happened to be in town that time, even though she lived already in East Berlin.

And then she went to work and somebody said, yeah, we don't know, he didn't come to work.

And she asked friends, yeah, we saw him last on a weekend he's gone and then somebody else probably told her he may have been picked up she had picked up what yeah probably by the Secret Service this was typically then in the East the the other thing so they weren't always as in the movies with those long trench coats or those long leather coats somebody had told her yeah there was a Lada and there were young men, those typical men where everybody knew who it is, who have a blazer on and are still wearing a tie with their jeans or so.

Then my mom went, my kids are very proud of their grandmother, my mom went to the Secret Service building and walked right into the front entrance to the first guard and he, yeah, are you a civilian, something like this?

And she, I want to know if my son is here.

And he was mumbling, he didn't know what to make of it.

What would give you the impression that your son would be here?

She said, well, somebody told me they have seen a ladder with young men wearing ties and they picked them up and he hasn't been seen since.

Yeah, how come you're even walking into the building?

I wanna know where he is, what's happening.

And now this guy, probably a higher ranking officer, now he was a little bit dumbfounded because apparently no parent ever has just walked in there and has said I want to know what's happening with my child he must be here so and then she was told okay you have to leave the building go around the corner and there's a side entrance come in there and then she was again asked again and again how she would think and then she was told yes he's here that's all we can see and then when she returned to Berlin she was picked up by the East Berlin Secret Service and this as you long know those huge headquarters of the Secret Service in East Berlin and there she was many times interrogated and whatever they thought I have done which was never cleared not to the end they always just said we are watching you my mother and if we find out you know anything about what your son has done or if we find out you are part of it we will instantly arrest you for now you may go." And yeah she was again and again picked up and we know it is happening.

They basically told my mother, we're waiting for you to trip up.

We both still have no clue until this day.

None of it is in my files what they thought is happening.

She got from this point on her mail, the 80s were days, it was a time when you got every day was something in your letterbox.

She got from then on her mail on Fridays all letters opened, it was supposed to be visible and with a rubber band around it.

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Ralph - Arrested and interrogated by the Stasi (181)