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Speaker 1

00:04

General Keith Alexander is a decorated military veteran who ran the NSA for the last 8 and a half years. During that time he faced questioning from the highest ranking officials in the land, But now he would face the opposite of that. So first, General, thank you so much for sitting down with me. Looking back on your time at the NSA, do you have any regrets such as not retiring 1 year earlier?

Speaker 2

00:30

You know, I thought about that. And, you know, at times you think, if I had just retired, somebody else would have had this burden. It would have been wrong for me to leave that for somebody else to do.

Speaker 1

00:41

Do you think that the NSA is suffering from a perception problem with the American people at the moment, bearing in mind that the answer to that is

Speaker 2

00:48

yes. Absolutely. You know, the first assumption is that you're collecting on the American people. And therein lies the problem, because the reality is the target is not the American people.

Speaker 1

01:01

No, The

Speaker 2

01:01

target is not the American people.

Speaker 1

01:02

No, the target is not the American people, but it seems that too often you miss the target and you hit the American person standing next to it going,

Speaker 2

01:10

whoa, whoa, him. But you see, we're not just out there gathering US communications, listening to their phone calls or collecting their emails, but that's the first thing that people jump to but you are out There doing that you're just saying you're not then reading them. You are gathering that data No, no, so In terms of going after US infrastructure or sitting here in the United States, you know, talking to A and B, talking in the United States.

Speaker 2

01:37

We aren't collecting that. We don't collect that. We do collect a metadata, a to-from number, date, time, group, and duration of a call. That's all that's in there.

Speaker 1

01:46

But that's not nothing. No, that's not nothing. That's significant information.

Speaker 1

01:50

Otherwise, you wouldn't want it. Is this the argument, then, that to get the needle, you need the haystack?

Speaker 2

01:55

Well, that's part of the argument.

Speaker 1

01:57

Right, but people's concerns, I think, are that you're not just taking the haystack. You're taking the whole farm and the county and the state and you've now got some photos of the farmer's wife in the shower as well.

Speaker 2

02:09

So NSA is not allowed to go do that on its own. It has oversight. And so what the courts, Congress and the administration do is say, if you're going to do this, it has to comport with the Constitution.

Speaker 2

02:23

So the question I think the American people really have to ask is, are we doing the right things to protect the nation and our civil liberties and privacy? I am the biggest advocate of freedom of the networks, Internet. And if we could come up with a way of segregating all the terrorist communications, it would really help us and protect our civil liberties and privacy. And you know, there was a great statement by somebody, you could probably get this into a part of that.

Speaker 2

02:53

You know what we really need to do, is all the bad guys need to be on this section of the internet. And they only operate up here. All good people operate over here. All bad guys over here.

Speaker 1

03:04

Are you talking about Pinterest?

Speaker 2

03:05

No, I'm, you know, bad guy downtown.

Speaker 1

03:07

Oh, I thought you meant all the worst people in the world in 1 area, so I thought you were talking about Pinterest, because that seems to be where they kind of assemble.

Speaker 2

03:13

Oh, could be.

Speaker 1

03:14

They are the worst people. Oh, look, I've found this gopher bedspread. I'd love that.

Speaker 1

03:23

Shut up, shut up.

Speaker 2

03:26

So I've not seen that.

Speaker 1

03:27

That's what you haven't seen. As director of the NSA, you haven't seen Pinterest. That's right.

Speaker 1

03:32

So that's where the terrorists could have been hiding all these years.

Speaker 2

03:35

And have led a sheltered life.

Speaker 1

03:37

How much data do you need to keep Americans safe?

Speaker 2

03:41

That's a tough, tough question. I don't know the answer to that. Here's what I do know.

Speaker 2

03:46

Look at the last 12 years, 13 years since 9-11. We've had a tremendous and remarkable record. That wasn't by accident.

Speaker 1

03:56

But you're always going to err on the side, aren't you, in your position of wanting more rather than less to be safe.

Speaker 2

04:02

Well, absolutely. And the court is going to take just the opposite view and say, do you have the necessary rationale for having this data?

Speaker 1

04:12

That's what I'm saying. So those 2 principles of the NSA are built to clash. You have 1 side saying, let's take everything.

Speaker 1

04:17

You have 1 side saying, let's protect privacy. Those 2 things don't work together.

Speaker 2

04:21

Well, they actually, you have to balance them, but I think you can do both.

Speaker 1

04:25

It's been said that your motto was collect everything.

Speaker 2

04:29

Is that true? For specific problems.

Speaker 1

04:32

Right. But you do understand that collect everything is also the motto of a hoarder. That's the fundamental principle which ends up with someone living alongside 1,500 copies of newspapers of the 1950s and 6 mummified cats.

Speaker 2

04:47

What I would tell you is, let's go to where that statement applied. Iraq. And the situation was 2006 and the issue was the number of casualties for us and our allies was rising.

Speaker 1

05:03

In your mind, has the NSA ever done something illegal?

Speaker 2

05:06

In my time, no. Not that I know of. You know, 1 of the most impressive things that I've seen in my career was people who have made a mistake that could be a huge mistake stepping up to say, I made a mistake.

Speaker 2

05:20

And in every case, to my knowledge, everyone except for 12 individuals stepped forward at the time they made those mistakes.

Speaker 1

05:28

Right, but you can't say everyone except for 12. That's like saying I've never killed anyone apart from those 3 people that I have buried under my patio at home.

Speaker 2

05:39

The issue is, I think the key issue is, that I was trying to make is, in every case, we reported. In some cases, those who made a mistake didn't report but were still caught.

Speaker 1

05:51

Why should the American people trust the NSA?

Speaker 2

05:55

Well, from my perspective, because of what they do to protect this country every day. These are good people trying to do the right thing.

Speaker 1

06:02

Right, but much of your reassurance there is based on your own moral code. The idea of you thinking, well, I wouldn't abuse this power, so why would anyone else? I would.

Speaker 1

06:12

I would. If I had access to that kind of information, I would abuse the hell out of it. I'll be looking up information about everyone that I knew. I know that.

Speaker 2

06:19

Everybody who goes through the training, they'd say, John, here's the deal. You're going to get access to this data. But you can't use it for these things.

Speaker 2

06:26

You can't use it for this and you can't use it for this.

Speaker 1

06:28

Sure, I definitely won't do that. Where's my computer? Right.

Speaker 2

06:30

And so as soon as you get on the computer, what happens, you type in...

Speaker 1

06:34

That's her name, she screwed me over so bad.

Speaker 2

06:36

Boom, and you hit return.

Speaker 1

06:38

There. Oh, you bitch! Oh my God! Oh my God!

Speaker 2

06:43

If you were caught doing that, then you would either be removed... Or promoted. No, referred to the Department of Justice, as we did on several of those cases.

Speaker 1

06:53

Let's talk about Snowden. What would you like Snowden to know right now, other than significantly less?

Speaker 2

07:01

I would like to set him down in a classified setting and say, you want to see the damage you've done and lay that out on the terrorist side and others. So he knows in his heart, and he would have to live with that the rest of his life.

Speaker 1

07:13

But you're giving information to the 1 man on earth guaranteed to leak it? Is it any wonder that Americans are concerned about your judgment regarding their data?

Speaker 2

07:22

Well, you know, you're asking ideally if we had a way of sitting him down and that he's not going to go leak more data and you could show him, do you understand what you've done? And from my perspective, I don't think he understands the true damage that he's done,

Speaker 1

07:36

right? Okay. So finally, let's talk about Branding the NSA's brand has been damaged. I think that's fair to say right, right as we learned with blackwater you don't have to change the substance of anything that you do as long as you visibly rebrand.

Speaker 1

07:54

Okay. So let's try this. The Washington Redskins. It's a slightly less tainted brand than yours.

Speaker 2

08:00

Yeah, but probably not a good 1 to go with.

Speaker 1

08:02

Sorry, okay, no good. How about this?

Speaker 2

08:06

Mr. Tiggles.

Speaker 1

08:06

Mr. Tiggles is not just the mascot, it's also the name of the agency, like Chuck E. Cheese. Then a journalist can't say, the NSA is storing huge amounts of data on foreign countries.

Speaker 1

08:17

Instead, it's saying, Mr. Tiggles is storing huge amounts of data. Isn't he? In the boot.

Speaker 1

08:22

Isn't he clever? He's in his boot. Oh, you've massively overstepped your bounds, Mr. Tiggles.

Speaker 1

08:27

But I can't stay mad at you. You just want to keep me safe.

Speaker 2

08:31

Yeah, and I don't think that's gonna work.

Speaker 1

08:33

Okay, how about rebranding yourself as a great listener?

Speaker 2

08:37

The only agency in government that really listens.

Speaker 1

08:39

That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Because in many ways the NSA is the perfect partner.

Speaker 1

08:45

So, let me introduce you to the new NSA, Trevor.

Speaker 2

08:49

I think this is good.

Speaker 1

08:50

Tell us about your day, everything about it. How's Mohammed at work? How is he?

Speaker 1

08:55

What's he been

Speaker 2

08:56

doing? Trevor.

Speaker 1

08:58

So if you had to choose 1 of these, which would it be?

Speaker 2

09:01

Well, I think that's something that perhaps you could have people vote on.

Speaker 1

09:06

So there you have it. At long last, Americans are being allowed to vote on something having to do with the NSA. Just pick up your phone and call any number and say A, B, or C into the handset.

Speaker 1

09:17

Don't worry, your vote will be collected.