This section introduces the guest Kai Lenny, providing details about his origins in Hawaii, his early experiences surfing, and his accomplishments as a stand up paddleboard and big wave surfer.

Kai Lenny's background and accomplishments

In this section, Kai discusses how the ocean provides energy and motivation for surfers. He talks about surfers' interest in space technology and how it might improve surfing equipment and abilities.

The ocean as a battery and inspiration for surfers

Kai discusses what age is appropriate for big wave surfing and shares his early experiences. He also describes long hold downs under waves and the mental training needed to overcome fear during hold downs.

Age for big wave surfing and hold downs

Kai explains how top surfers can read the ocean and position themselves for the best waves. Basics of wave physics are also covered. Kai discusses planning tricks while also responding flexibly to the wave.

Reading the ocean, wave physics, and tricks

Kai talks about customizing his own equipment to match conditions. He also discusses how other ocean sports like foil boarding and paddle boarding allow him to access different types of waves and ocean energy.

Equipment customization and other ocean sports

Kai discusses the issue of ocean plastic pollution and his beach cleanups. He also talks about working with companies to develop more sustainable surfboard and packaging materials.

Ocean conservation and sustainable materials

Kai further explains reading waves and conditions perfectly to position for the best rides. Guests also discuss wave physics concepts like bathymetry and how it impacts wave size.

Reading waves perfectly and wave physics

Kai talks about pushing to ride even bigger waves and seeking new big wave locations worldwide. He also shares a story of riding a huge wave formed by a calving glacier in Patagonia.

Pushing limits to bigger waves

In the conclusion, Kai and Neil discuss maximizing wave conditions through environmental manipulation to create even bigger ridable waves. Kai also speculates on future surfing possibilities.

Creating perfect waves and future possibilities

Hitting the lip of the wave at the right speed

Keeping the back hand lower than the right hand

What do we want? A time machine. When do we want it? It doesn't matter.

- Surfers, including top performers, are fascinated by space technology and its potential applications in surfing.
- Neil deGrasse Tyson hosts "StarTalk Sports Edition" with co-hosts Chuck Knight and Gary O'Reilly.
- Guest Kai Lenny, a renowned surfer and environmentalist, started surfing at age 4 and has multiple championships.
- Lenny describes the ocean as his source of inspiration and purpose.
- He discusses the challenges and excitement of big wave surfing, including the energy of waves and the skills required.
- The conversation touches on the increasing age of young surfers tackling big waves and the importance of safety.
- Lenny compares the thrill of big wave surfing to snowboarding and emphasizes the physics involved in both sports.

- Surfing big waves requires understanding meteorology, tides, and ocean dynamics.
- Waves carry energy, not water; energy moves through water molecules.
- As waves approach shallower shorelines, their energy causes them to rise and become larger.
- Surfers must adapt their tricks based on wave conditions, including wind and energy from storms.
- Each wave is unique, requiring intuition and flexibility in performance.
- Bathymetry (underwater terrain) significantly affects wave size and behavior.
- Hawaii's steep underwater slopes contribute to powerful waves, making it a prime big wave location.
- Surfers face risks like hold downs, where they can be trapped underwater due to fast-moving water.
- Safety measures, such as inflatable vests, are crucial for managing these risks.

- The speaker reflects on their first experience of being underwater and the mental challenge of not panicking.
- They describe the intense visuals and sensations of being deep underwater, emphasizing the need for self-belief.
- The discussion shifts to various water sports, particularly in Maui, known for its big wave surfing and innovative water sports.
- The speaker mentions the evolution of sports like kite surfing and hydrofoiling, highlighting their connection to understanding ocean dynamics.
- They explain the differences between big wave surfing and inter-island foiling, emphasizing the unique perspectives gained from different equipment.
- The conversation covers the physics of surfing tricks, comparing it to skateboarding and the importance of timing and wave interaction.
- The speaker elaborates on the dance-like relationship between the surfer and the wave, emphasizing technique, speed, and body positioning.

- Surfing offers limited opportunities in a session, often requiring competition for waves.
- The best waves typically come in sets, with the second wave often being the best.
- Surfers must be in tune with the ocean to maximize their chances of catching good waves.
- Kelly Slater exemplifies mastery in reading ocean cues and timing swells.
- Surfers often make their own equipment to improve performance based on personal experience.
- Modern surfboards use environmentally friendly materials and require a balance of stiffness and flexibility.
- Traditional Hawaiian techniques involved using natural oils to seal wooden boards, connecting surfers to nature.

- Riding a thin wooden surfboard connects surfers to nature and the spiritual side of surfing.
- There's a contrast between traditional surfing and high-performance, tech-driven surfing.
- Surfers are interested in innovations from science, hoping for advancements to improve their experience.
- Environmental concerns arise from using toxic materials in surfboards while trying to keep oceans clean.
- The impact of plastic pollution is significant, with long-lasting effects on marine life.
- Beach cleanups are insufficient; addressing the source of pollution is crucial.
- A partnership with Atlantic Packaging aims to create sustainable packaging solutions to reduce plastic waste.
- The goal is to change products without altering consumer behavior, similar to electric cars.
- Nature may adapt to plastic pollution, but humans risk being harmed before that happens.

- Discussion of black hole waves and surfing them, highlighting time dilation effects.
- Exploration of the search for new big wave surfing locations globally.
- Mention of Nazare in Portugal as a recently discovered big wave spot with unique geological features.
- Ideas on engineering larger surfable waves and the potential for man-made wave pools.
- Reference to a drone used to measure swell heights at Nazare, revealing significant wave heights.
- Speculation on the historical formation of the moon and its impact on Earth's tidal waves, suggesting tides were once 8,000 times higher.

- Discussion about tidal strength and the moon's influence on tides.
- Mention of time travel and a humorous reference to wanting a time machine.
- Anecdote about an adventurous trip to Patagonia with Navy SEALs, climbing uncharted mountains.
- Experience of witnessing a glacier calving, creating a perfect wave.
- Estimate of the wave's height at around 50 feet, emphasizing its beauty and power.
- Contrast between cold water conditions in Patagonia and warmer Hawaiian waters.
- Closing remarks from Neil deGrasse Tyson and Kai Lenny on the episode.

- Surfers are intrigued by space technology and its applications in surfing.
- Neil deGrasse Tyson hosts "StarTalk Sports Edition" with guests like surfer Kai Lenny.
- Lenny, a champion surfer, finds inspiration in the ocean and discusses big wave surfing's challenges.
- Emphasizes the importance of safety, meteorology, and ocean dynamics in surfing.
- Each wave is unique, requiring adaptability and intuition from surfers.
- Bathymetry affects wave size; Hawaii is noted for its powerful waves.
- Surfers face risks like hold downs and use safety measures like inflatable vests.
- The conversation covers various water sports and innovations in surfing equipment.
- Environmental concerns arise from surfboard materials and plastic pollution.
- Partnerships aim to create sustainable packaging and reduce plastic waste.
- Discussion includes black hole waves, new surfing locations, and the moon's influence on tides.
- Anecdotes about adventures in Patagonia highlight the beauty of nature and surfing.
- Closing remarks emphasize the episode's themes of surfing and science.

What is the biggest wave in the solar system? Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-hosts Chuck Nice and Gary O’Reilly explore the science of big waves with professional big wave surfer Kai Lenny.

If you ask every surfer, basically every top performing surfer, guess what?

They're watching every space shuttle launch because they're so into the stuff that is created to make these rockets go to space and help us survive in space.

Everyone's just waiting for anything new that was created to trickle down to us so that we could like use it.

And maybe it'll be that silver bullet to allow us to ride the waves better or the wind better.

Dude, you could shoot my surfboard into space and it can re-enter without burning up.

Welcome to StarTalk, your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide.

Neil deGrasse Tyson, your personal astrophysicist.

I'm your host and I got my co-host Chuck Knight.

Chuck, an actor, comedian, and, but more importantly, he's my host, my co-host.

right, Gary O'Reilly, thanks, well, thanks to UK for creating you and for lending you to us, your former soccer pro and game announcer, and we got you as my other co-host for this.

Now you put together this show, so tell me what you and the team of producers, So what do you got for us today?

All right, we have a guest born in Hawaii.

Given the name Kai, which I do believe in Hawaiian language is the sea, rode his first wave aged 4.

something years later, he's a Red Bull athlete, 8 time stand up paddle world champion, if I'm not mistaken, the youngest ever Surfer Hall of Fame inductee In

He won the toe-in surfing challenge at Nazare, Portugal.

know, it just doesn't get any bigger than that.

He's a windsurfer, paddleboarder we know.

Windsurfer, kite surfer, wing foiler, he is considered by those that know, the ultimate water man.

Wait, with 70 foot liquid avalanches and our guest is still alive?

And just to add another facet to this rather incredible diamond, He's also an environmental campaigner who does not mind each clean up himself.

So he don't want to surf into a mat of plastic.

know, but he gets down there and he cleans up himself.

Kai, thank you, dude, for coming on to StarTalk.

It's a pleasure to be here with you guys and you know I got so many questions for you guys.

No, no, no, no, that's a different show if you're going to ask me questions.

We don't get somebody like you on the show.

So what is this, I hear that the ocean is like a battery pack for you?

Oh, you know, I think just the ocean for me is like, kind of what keeps me going.

It definitely, I think beyond having, you know, my family and my kids, it's kind of my purpose.

I wake up every morning and I just have this drive and longing to get in the water and experiment and ultimately ride the biggest waves I can find.

So it calls to you, the ocean calls to you.

And 1 of my favorite big waves in the world is 15 minutes down the road here on Maui, and it's called, the world knows it by the name Jaws, but in Hawaiian it's called Pe'ahi, which means the beacon or to be called because it calls people from all around the world.

And it called me since I was a little kid.

I think 1 of my earliest memories alive was being on the cliff watching my heroes surf this gigantic wave.

So, you know, what better place to have been born to become a product of my environment I am today than having Mount Everest sort of in your backyard.

Speaking of Little kids, what's a safe age for big wave?

Does some, of course you gotta graduate to that, but I'm saying how young would it be, or could you be, and somebody say, get on out there, kid.

Well, you know, I always thought, you know, surfing is kind of like this activity or water sports in general, or these activities that are kind of outside of society's bubble.

I feel like the rules change, you know, you could have, you know, all the money in the world, all the opportunity in the world.

But at the same time, you know, there's a different pecking order out in the water.

There's like a different kind of like, it's very tribal, I would say.

And I mean, that in the most positive way, you know, you kind of go back on our ancestral tendencies.

And when I first surfed Jaws was with Laird Hamilton and Dave Kalama when I was 16 years old.

And back then I thought that was like young.

I was probably like the second youngest person to ever go out to surf these like proper big waves.

Because it's sort of like a line in the sand where you could surf a giant wave maybe on the outer reefs here that could be a 30-foot face but as soon as you go to a place like Jaws or Peahi all of a sudden it's like a completely different energy level.

I would say there's like 5 or 6 big waves I know around the world that have sort of this next level energy that, you know, it's I don't know how you could measure it, but it's you can feel it in the air.

You know how energy can't be created or destroyed.

It starts with the sun, it goes to the atmosphere, the wind, and it goes into the ocean.

And then when these waves explode, this energy gets released and you don't know what it transforms into necessarily, but it almost feels like it goes into yourself.

But nowadays, kids are starting to surf these giant waves at like 12, 13 years old.

And I'm like, thinking to myself, are they even strong enough?

Can their limbs handle getting pulled out?

And it's actually been quite remarkable and eye opening how how big of waves they can not only ride because they got the skill set but how they can survive and they come up smiling and I'm like maybe this generation's just built completely different but

wait so you're ready to sit on the porch and say, young whippersnappers coming up.

At 30 years old, I'm thinking I'm like, I'm like, oh my gosh, these guys are next level.

I mean, guys and girls, you should see these little kids that are, you know, they're going to be leading the sport into the future, big wave riding.

You know, I think part of, you know, being a big wave rider of any kind is it's, it's kind of like, you can come in really hot for a couple of years and you could be amazing, but to be able to sustain, you know, the long career through big waves is really difficult just because, you know, it's life and death sometimes.

It's, you know, It doesn't happen every single day.

So you don't have the opportunity to necessarily practice.

You kind of get flung in from a flat summer into an apocalyptic winter.

And while the rest of the world's kind of bummed that it's gonna be like an El Nino winter, all the big wave surfers are rejoicing because that means bigger waves and more consistent big waves.

you said you're 15 minutes from a big wave location.

So that means if we were to imprison you, we would just put you in Colorado or something, a landlocked state, and you would die.

I probably, my life cycle would be much shorter, but I'd probably find a mountain to tomahawk down, you know?

And I thought my biggest inspiration for big waves was, uh, snowboarding because it got to the point where, you know, you can ride a big wave.

You can go straight, you can ride inside these giant barrels.

And that's doing big aerials on big waves.

And if someone like Travis Rice, 1 of the legends of snowboarding, can go to Alaska and do an 80-foot jump and do 3 rotations, 2 rotations.

And I actually ended up going to Alaska a couple of weeks ago and actually experiencing with him what it's like.

And I'd have to say being in the mountains to me is far scarier than actually riding big waves.

Big waves, it's like, oh, it's only a 50 to 60, 80, 70 foot wave on the face.

Or these mountains are 2, 000 vertical feet and you have crevasses, 500 foot cliffs, avalanches coming behind you that'll bury you if you can't swim up.

So we're in a position to throw some physics at what it is you do.

Do you think much about the physics of your rotations and your speed and the waves themselves?

I, you know, I was never really good in math at school.

I think I had so much energy sitting down wasn't kind of my calling and looking at numbers.

But when I really got into what I'm doing now today, it's funny how the passion can bring out things that I wasn't necessarily good at, like the physics of things, trying to understand all the rotations.

And then even like trying to predict these big waves, you end up sort of becoming a meteorologist, trying to read weather patterns and understand all these sort of things, and the tides of the world, and so on and so forth.

But I'd love to hear what your thoughts are on all of that.

I'll just set up the stage here, and then I know Gary and Chuck have questions.

So in case the public doesn't know, A wave moving through the water is the speed of energy that has been deposited in the water at some earlier point.

So water is actually not moving at that speed, it is the energy of all the water molecules communicating the flow of that energy from 1 molecule to the next.

So that's why, like you ever see a duck sitting up on a, you know, on the ocean and then a wave just comes under the duck, the duck just goes up and down, that energy went under the duct and kept going, but the water didn't transfer until you get to the shoreline where the energy has to go somewhere.

And If it's a really deep ocean, a tiny little wave in the deep ocean, measure up how much that energy is, and as the shoreline gets shallower and shallower, that energy is still there, But it's not moving as much water, so it has to move the water higher.

And you get bigger and bigger waves as the shoreline gets shallower and shallower.

And now that is 100% of everything I know about what you do.

But Neil, so Neil, is that why when you have a shelf off the shoreline, the waves get that much bigger at that place?

Because all at once, all that energy is now slammed up to the shelf, but now it, boom, has to go somewhere, so it goes up and over.

Correct, it goes up, Rick, because it was carrying that much more mass of water previously, and now if the shore is shallower, then the mass of water isn't available to it, so it's got to do something.

So, Carl, when you get towed up, you're on 1 of these big waves, do you know in advance what trick you're about to perform?

Or do you have to make intuitive on the spot calculations?

You go, you know what, this wave, this angle, this wind, I need to bring this trick.

Or is there something of you pre-planned how you're going to do this?

You know, it's where there's no 2 ways ever alike, even at a perfect spot And a lot of these places, the tricks or kind of the approach that I have really depends on the spot I'm traveling to.

You know, for example, here in Hawaii, because we have no continental shelf, and it just rises, the mountain rises from super deep water I'll kind of find the right equipment to ride.

So like let's say if I'm getting towed into a wave my board will be 13 pounds here and I will be you know probably traveling at around the wave itself will be going 25 to 30 miles an hour depending on the amount of joules that the storm produced.

So on the biggest days we'll get 27, 000 30, 000 joules and then the wave will be like a big day out there is 20 feet at 20 seconds, which is kind of the swell interval and the sea height that it travels from 4, 000 miles from the storm.

And I guess really having all that knowledge and knowing that there's like a 25 knot trade wind, There's going to be a chalk going across the face.

I'll know that trick I want to do at the beginning if I have the opportunity is a backside 360 and I'll be going left instead of right.

And when I land my board will it'll be more of a 540 than a 360.

So I'll be kind of landing on right again.

And that'll put me in the perfect position to drop in and hopefully pull into the barrel of these giant waves.

The tricky part about big waves or just waves in general is it's You can have a plan, but if you stick too much to it, you're going to kind of like, it's like dancing with a partner.

If you're kind of trying to do your own thing, and you're not kind of adjusting to that person, it's going to look forced.

So in the back of your head, I always have an arsenal of maneuvers or things I can do.

And as it kind of comes without thinking, I just kind of like do, you know, it's like, you don't think about walking, but you know that you have to put the next foot forward every time you step.

So I spend a lot of time doing visualization.

If I'm doing a long plane ride somewhere, you know, I'm just praying it's not my last plane ride.

And I'm also thinking about how I'd want to do it.

So having music is a trigger and trying to kind of place myself there and get my heart pumping to the point where I feel like my palms are sweating on an airplane.

You're factoring so much in there, the wind speed, the knowledge of a storm far out at sea, how much energy is coming towards you, but surely the underwater terrain matters, right?

If there's a slope change, that'll have a big effect on the wave, won't it?

Yeah, and That's like, it's a great point.

Every wave that I travel to, I have a really good understanding of the spot.

So like here at Jaws, Peahe, the bathymetry is really unique.

So for example, we don't have a continental shelf here in Hawaii.

And that's the reason why all of the waves here have so much force because you can basically guarantee that same energy coming from the storm is going to just unload.

And that's why Hawaii is known as being 1 of the best big wave places on planet Earth, maybe 1 of the more consistent ones.

to remind people, the Hawaiian Islands are volcanic cones, so they come up from the bottom of the ocean.

So your slope is, You're right, it's not the continental shelf.

It's just the mountainside as it enters the water, right?

It's that the mountain continues all the way down.

And just because we've, like, the island itself is constantly kind of breaking into the ocean.

I mean, the big island of Hawaii, which is, you know, you could fit all the other islands into it.

Maui was at 1 point with similar size and you can just see daily that the cliff kind of is eroding away just from the salt and it's almost like the volcanic rock is rusting because we have this red dirt.

So there's a lot of ledges along our coastline and that kind of will take all that swell energy like you described earlier and will force the waves vertically kind of ledge up.

But the interesting thing is, is you think with all this coastline that these giant waves coming in would actually be vertically taller everywhere.

But there's a lot of places, there's a lot of, you know, underwater conditions that it requires.

Like Jaws has a giant trench that travels way out to sea and it basically takes all that energy and it kind of sandwiches it in and it forces it into this kind of like, I would say track and the track kind of comes in and now there's this perfect triangle of reef not really reef boulders.

We call them dinosaur eggs because what I believe happened is there was this big point this big cliff that had eroded away and what was left was the bedrock and over time it turned into these boulders because they kept rolling.

And on a big wipeout, when you fall out at JAWS, you can actually hear these dinosaur eggs, probably the size of an entire living room going clink, clink, clink.

And your worst nightmare is you get caught between 1 of them.

And you hear these big sounds and the wave itself produces this violent sound, this percussion, but underwater you could hear rock going, boom, boom.

And you kind of bounce off those rocks sometimes, but luckily they're pretty round from kind of rolling around.

But then there's all this, so these fingers there, and what gives you these long, long hold downs at this particular wave is that similar to this, if this is shallower and this is deeper, you can get stuck in these fingers and the water's traveling faster above you.

So imagine letting go of a balloon inside and it floating and hitting the ceiling.

The water's moving so much faster above your head and you're kind of in this spinning vortex that you try to come up and we have these inflation vests.

So we're wearing these airbags under our wetsuits with CO2 canisters up to 35 milligrams and or grams and you when you pull it, it just blows your airbag up and you brings you to the surface like a cork.

But when the water's moving too fast above your head, you can't penetrate.

just– you're bouncing off of the faster rushing water.

And it's like if you try to like dive into a river, you're gonna get swept across versus kind of traveling across the river.

Tim Jackson And so the hold downs can vary from, if you're lucky, 5 seconds underwater.

And if you're unlucky, you could be under for well over a minute and you could be dragged maybe 3 football fields.

Mentally, the first time this happens to you, and you're, okay, used to 5 seconds, but Now you're down for 30 seconds, 35 seconds.

What is the training that you have to go through to say, I'm not gonna die?

And the first time I fell when I was 16, I was like underwater, I'm like, well, I lived a good life.

And I opened my eyes and I saw like, it looked like the most violent scene that you could ever paint.

It was just these giant thunder cloud, lightning clouds moving at a speed that looked like a time-lapse.

It was just going so quick and such a deep blue water and you just felt like the whole ocean you're trapped under because in a second, you're 60 feet underwater.

So you have to clear your ears immediately, otherwise you'll blow your eardrums out.

And then it's like, you feel the pressure all of a sudden on your lungs.

And, you know, there's no training for that.

You kind of have to have, this is where like, you can do all your homework, you can do everything possible, but you sort of have to have faith in yourself.

And I always believed that if you didn't, you know, if you didn't believe in a higher power, put yourself in that situation and you start praying to someone, anyone.

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Kai, having described all of that, is that why you went into other events like paddle boarding?

I mean to be honest my heroes before me they did all these things and I was heavily influenced and this place on Maui is the mecca of big wave surfing, windsurfing and a lot of these sports have been invented here.

We know that ancient Hawaiians used to paddle on surfboards with canoe paddles, so standard paddling, but it was kind of rebirthed here by these legendary figures.

And then, you know, a lot of things have been invented that have actually helped us kind of realize the potential of the ocean, like kite surfing was created here.

And most recently, and it's like, it's like a new old sport, you know, because the hydrofoils being invented for the military or by the military, you know, 100 years ago, it's been finally used now as personal use.

And now that's a real sport that is kind of forced everyone to learn physics or the understanding of fluid dynamics.

And it's just it's really cool now because like when there's those big waves maybe 5 times a year that are in the exceptional range, let's say 50 to 60, 70 feet high, half that We have to be able to be entertained somehow, some other way.

And what better way of understanding big waves that break along the shoreline than the swells that are out in the middle of the ocean.

And so in the summertime, I'll take my hydrofoil board, or my paddleboard or whatever, and I'll go ride open ocean swells between the islands.

Can I, with the wing foiling, how much difference is there between the physics that you're presented with as a big wave surfer and then this sort of inter-island foiling that you do?

Oh, so like between the, like using the wing and then going like on the swells between islands?

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Big Wave Physics with Kai Lenny