- The artist, Lauren McCarthy, explores systems of interaction and the impact of technology on human relationships.
- One of her projects, called Social Turkers, involved going on blind dates and streaming them online while receiving instructions from people watching the date.
- The project helped McCarthy realize the limits she puts on herself and allowed her to loosen up her identity.
- McCarthy did not inform the dates about the project until after it was over to avoid the conversation being solely focused on the project.
- Giving up control during the project made McCarthy feel more freedom, but also made her unsure about making decisions in future dates.
- McCarthy's difficulty interacting with people led her to study computer science and art, and she later created the P5 JS framework to make art and technology more accessible and welcoming to diverse individuals.
- The framework is designed with an emphasis on documentation and user-friendly language to support diversity and encourage contributions from non-expert developers.
- The user base of P5 JS has become broader and the project actively seeks to highlight different contexts and translate resources into different languages.

- The speaker discusses the need to change metaphors used in teaching and the wide range of projects they work on, including art projects and visualization.
- The Facebook Mood Manipulator was created in response to a study on mood manipulation by Facebook, but it no longer works well due to changes in Facebook's infrastructure.
- The Mood Manipulator allowed users to select their desired mood and filtered their posts accordingly using linguistic analysis.
- The speaker mentions another project called Us Plus, which analyzed speech and facial expressions during Google Hangouts to optimize conversations.
- The speaker also created ConversaCube, a centerpiece for conversation that provided cues for what to say or talk about.
- Physical objects are more effective at influencing behavior, but apps and extensions have a wider reach.
- The speaker discusses the choice users have in downloading and using their apps.
- The speaker mentions the commercial interest in their projects, but prefers to focus on software rather than manufacturing physical products.
- The ideal model for consuming and purchasing digital art has not been found yet.

- The speaker discusses the challenges of buying and selling digital files and the ownership of digital artwork.
- They mention different models and platforms that have been attempted but haven't caught on.
- The speaker also talks about their interest in home automation and creating a service called Lauren, which would be like Amazon Alexa but with a more personalized touch.
- They explore the idea of the human element behind services like TaskRabbit and question the role of humans in the face of advancing artificial intelligence.

The speaker discusses their projects involving observing people through cameras and creating connections with them. They explain their plans for a new service where they can remotely control electronic devices in someone's home and engage in conversation with them. The speaker also talks about a previous project where they looked through people's social media and their intention to create spaces for people to consider the future. They discuss the balance between fear and optimism in their work and the importance of finding the positive aspects in a changing world. The speaker mentions the potential for lasting connections and friendships through their projects.

- The speaker met her husband through one of her projects and considers it a successful outcome
- Her husband is comfortable with computers and people and is a digital artist
- They work on projects together, with his focus being on machine learning and computer vision
- To start doing this kind of work, the speaker suggests using tools like processing, P5.js, Open Frameworks, and Arduino, and joining online communities
- In art school, the speaker advises taking risks, connecting with peers, and asking questions
- Influences include artists Sophie Kahl and Jill Magid, performance artist Touching Shea, and author Joyce Carol Oates
- The speaker's website is lauren-mccarthy.com and she publishes most of her work there
- She is working on a home project and will be open for signups soon
- The p5js.org platform, which she leads the development of, is recommended for those interested in code art.

- Lauren McCarthy is an artist who explores the impact of technology on human relationships.
- One of her projects involved going on blind dates and streaming them online while receiving instructions from viewers.
- McCarthy's projects aim to make art and technology more accessible and diverse.
- She created the P5 JS framework for this purpose, which emphasizes documentation and user-friendly language.
- McCarthy's projects include the Facebook Mood Manipulator and Us Plus, which analyze and optimize conversations.
- She also created ConversaCube, a centerpiece for conversation.
- McCarthy discusses the challenges of digital art ownership and the need for new models.
- She is interested in home automation and creating a personalized service called Lauren.
- McCarthy explores the role of humans in the face of advancing artificial intelligence.
- She plans to remotely control electronic devices in someone's home and engage in conversation with them.
- McCarthy emphasizes the importance of finding positivity in a changing world and has found lasting connections through her projects.
- She advises using tools like processing, P5.js, Open Frameworks, and Arduino to start doing this kind of work.
- In art school, she advises taking risks, connecting with peers, and asking questions.
- McCarthy's influences include artists Sophie Kahl and Jill Magid, performance artist Touching Shea, and author Joyce Carol Oates.
- Her website is lauren-mccarthy.com and she publishes most of her work there.
- She is working on a home project and will be open for signups soon.
- The p5js.org platform, which she leads the development of, is recommended for those interested in code art.

Lauren McCarthy is an artist and assistant professor at UCLA - https://twitter.com/laurmccarthy

Her latest project LAUREN, is a human intelligent smart home. Lauren will visit your home, deploy a series of smart devices, and watch over you remotely 24/7. Learn more here - https://get-lauren.com/

YC's podcast is hosted by Craig Cannon - http://twitter.com/craigcannon

I'm a assistant professor here at UCLA Design Media Arts.

But my art is basically thinking about what are the systems we use to be a person and interact with other people and will technology save all of our problems or cause many more?

So like at the footer of your website on your about page, you wrote, I make art about what confuses me.

The main thing that confuses me is just people.

So I make art about people and about, you know, the sort of expectations we have of each other or the rituals and the patterns and the strange things we do when we're together or alone.

And so I guess to give people some context, can you just like reference 1 of your projects that is about people?

So maybe to give an example, I did a project called Social Turkers a few years ago and I was trying to see if I could fix my non-existent dating life.

So I made this system where I went on a series of blind dates with people that I met on the internet and then I sort of discreetly streamed the video of the date to the web and then I paid people through the service called Amazon Mechanical Turk small amounts of money to watch the date and try and give me instructions for what to say or do to see if that they might be better at kind of coaching me or directing me through this date.

Maybe less successful than I had hoped, but also less successful than I had feared.

Yeah, the thing that it did really was make, I guess 1 thing I'm always trying to do without getting too philosophical here is understand what are these limits we put on ourselves.

And so for me to get these instructions, oh yeah, so they would come as text messages and I have to do them or say them immediately.

And so just having to do these things and not being totally in control felt really uncomfortable at first, but then also started to become really natural.

But the thing it made me realize was I could say or do things that I felt like, oh, that's not me, or that's totally weird of me to do.

And then the date would not act like it was such a strange thing to say or do and so like the sky didn't fall and so I realized what a narrow box I normally hold my idea of myself in and So what that project was really successful in doing was just getting me to like kind of loosen up my identity, I guess, in some way.

They had no idea that this was going on while you were doing it?

They didn't And that was part, you know, I didn't, I started out with these where I would tell them at the beginning of the date.

Because that, you know, it wasn't supposed to be out this secret thing.

But the problem was that the whole date would be just talking about the project and about the issues around it and surveillance and art, which was great, but it didn't feel like a first date then.

It was just them quizzing me about my art practice.

And so I switched to telling them at the end or after the fact, just to try and get a more, get this feeling that this is this thing we all do, we don't talk about it.

And so was it, just really eyeopening for you to give up control and let other people like basically do the date for you in a way that like made you more comfortable with other people over time?

Or was it just that individual experience that was just different?

Yeah, no, I think it did have some lasting effect where I sort of felt a looseness that came from that project.

It like almost by giving up control, I started to feel more freedom in some way.

But the other weird effect was that, like immediately after the project, I had gotten really used to the system that like for the first few dates, I felt really like unsure about how to make a decision like, you know, like, can I kiss you?

Like, or do you want to have a second date?

I just like, I don't know how to determine those things anymore.

Like, have you wanted to jump on the other side and like control other people?

I have less of a, maybe my controlling of other people is just by setting up these situations and asking if they'll participate.

I was wondering with like all these projects, if you're just attracting more people like you to run the date for you.

I get all these socially inept people as my turkers.

It is interesting though with a lot of these projects where there's different roles.

I talked to someone and they Immediately are like, oh I want to be this on this side of it or I want to be on that other side of it Or I want to do neither of those things and and for every person it's like really clear in their head but different

That's so crazy And so was there a moment like before all this like the art projects got started, the programming got started, that you recognized that you were having difficulty interacting with people?

And so then like throughout your, did you study art in college?

Yeah, I studied computer science and art.

And maybe this is the source of all my problems, but I went to MIT where I feel like the 1 thing I didn't learn was any social skills.

And so I never felt that like inadequate in college.

It was like immediately afterwards where I was like, oh, wow, all these people know how to like interact with each other.

But it seems like you're in this interesting place in between, right?

Because you also had your JavaScript thing, which was P5 JS, which is like about opening up art and technology as a whole, right?

So there are obviously like larger issues you're trying to tackle as well.

Or is that just because you found that like, you went to MIT, so you were given the aptitude to get into programming and like make art, and you felt that people couldn't do it?

I think part of my social anxiety or awkwardness comes from just a feeling of like, I just don't know how to fit in to a lot of situations.

And so another place where there's a big problem with people fitting in or feeling welcome is in tech in general.

And I think that was what really got me interested in working in this P5.js project.

And not just tech, but open source is even worse in terms of the gender breakdown or minorities that are involved.

And so I was just trying to see what would it look like if the number 1 goal of this project was to build a space where people feel welcome and use that as a starting point not like oh we built this cool tool and then oh crap like can we get some more you know different people in here after the fact.

And yeah, so that's, you know, I like JavaScript and I like building this tool, but that is the core for me.

It's like, can we make a space where people just feel comfortable being there, even if they don't know yet how to code or they don't know how they fit in or they don't know the other people.

Like, what about this particular, like, I mean, it's an entire framework, right?

What about it is attracting those people?

So if we have that core value of like, we wanna support diversity and different points of view from the get-go, part of that goes into design decisions about the tool itself, like trying to make the, like the language itself understandable, the functions in the library.

Trying, like, putting a really heavy emphasis on documentation.

So it's not this barrier where you have to figure it out.

It's like someone has actually helped, wants you to learn.

And also actually doing things behind the scenes.

So taking some trade-offs in the code, like under the hood, to make it easier for people that are not like expert developers to still be contributors to that code base.

And so adding a lot more commenting in there and just doing things in slightly less sort of obscure ways.

I never thought about that, like just opening up exactly how you comment to make it better for people to jump in and be open source contributors.

I always thought about it as much more end consumer facing, I guess processing.

And so has this netted different kinds of projects?

I mean, the user base is so much broader, and we really try to highlight that.

So that's the other piece of it, is actively doing events or curating home page sketches or galleries or doing outreach and working with specific groups and being like, well, what does it mean in your context?

Or maybe we need to translate this all to Spanish.

And then what are the relevant examples or concepts there?

Do we need to change the metaphors we're using to teach instead of assuming that you use the same object that we're talking about.

So yeah, the projects are just, they reflect a wider range of people and different ideas.

And are they chiefly art projects or what?

Mainly, but I think it's being used in a lot of other contexts too, like visualization stuff.

I see it like in news and like blog posts kind of things as a showing data or making some point.

Yeah, it's, I think wider than just art for sure.

So 1 thing that I did want to talk to you about was the Facebook mood manipulator.

It exists, I don't think it works so well.

Facebook kind of changes their underlying infrastructure Very regularly,

okay, so just explain how it worked in the past.

Yeah, so it actually I made it in response to this news in like 2014 or something like that, where it was like, oh, Facebook did this study about mood manipulation, where they were showing people either positive or more negative content, and then showing that this would cause the person themselves to make more positive or negative posts with the conclusion that they can actually influence your mood based on what they show you in your feed.

And the outcry was all about the procedure and like, you didn't get the proper permission, like I can't believe Facebook is experimenting on us, which is like a whole different conversation, but I was more interested in like this question of like wait, but they can like control our moods, like I don't have time to be mad about them experimenting right now, like what about this issue?

So the Facebook Mood Manipulator was this Facebook add-on you could get that basically would give you this interface that you could it had a few metrics like positive negative but also like optimistic pessimistic I think or open or private something like that.

And then how would it actually interact with the interface?

Yeah, and so you get to select how much of these things you want to feel in a given day, like when you wake up, and then it filters your posts accordingly.

So it was using this method called linguistic inquiry word count, or LWC, That was actually the same method that the Facebook mood manipulation study used.

It's basically just looking at the words in a post and trying to tag them with different qualifiers.

You know, this is a positive word or this is the pronoun and then all of these different, you know, end results like openness or hopefulness are based on what percentage of the words are in this category or that category.

So you just like add it up like an equation.

Have you thought about doing a version 2, like post 2016 election to see the other side of Facebook?

Yeah, I actually think I've seen some things like that, like to see outside the echo chamber.

I wonder what it would be, what would be the appropriate add on now?

Because I think now people are so used to that idea.

Like, of course they're manipulating my mood, of course.

You know, they're filtering out certain things or targeting me.

It also seems difficult given like how much like app and like mobile browser traffic they have right now.

I guess, I mean, I don't know how much it's changed since 2014, but I imagine it's gone up, which is super difficult.

And so what, Have you done many other extensions?

So 1 that comes to mind is this extension for Google Hangouts that I made with Kyle McDonald.

It was called Us Plus, which is kind of a play on Google Plus.

And the idea is that you would install it in your Hangout and it would measure what you would do speech to text and like measure the words that you're saying and analyze them and then it would also analyze your facial expression and it would try to kind of optimize your conversation and then give feedback individually.

So it might notice that I'm being much more negative or pessimistic than my conversation partner and so it would show me an image like, stop being such a downer or something like that.

Or My favorite feature was if you are talking a lot more than the other person, it would just auto-mute you.

You've been auto-muted for talking too much until there was more of a balance.

To me, it's so surprising that you're the 1 building these tools when you seem to have a very high EQ for other people.

I feel like I am very sensitive to other people, but then I just like my output, I'm always feel like lost.

Like I'm like, okay, this person, like I'm supposed to say something reassuring or like, you know, make this situation comfortable right now.

I think more people have that feeling than you think.

Because, because there was that also that like box project you guys made, right?

It would tell someone what to do on their date at a certain point in time.

This is the special version we made for our wedding.

So they're silver to match the color theme.

Yeah, this was a project I did a while ago.

It was called ConversaCube and it's just like a centerpiece for conversation.

And it would kind of sit in the middle of your table and detect like who was talking and then try to give you just single 1 or 2 word cues of what to do or actually what to say or talk about.

Was it parsing the conversation or was it just like throwing random stuff out?

Yeah, it was listening to the conversation and I can't go into the specifics of that 1.

I mean, a lot of these projects are sort of working with people's kind of desire to buy into things.

It's like you give someone a product and you tell them it does something and they really start to, they kind of want to believe it or they, so like with the Us Plus project I was talking to this reporter and we were doing the interview over Us Plus, and she was, you know, towards the end, and she's kind of like, well, you know, this is great, but like, is this really working?

These feel sort of random, like, how smart is this thing?

And I was about to explain how like, yeah, you know, speech to text is not that great.

And the analysis we're using is actually supposed to be for longer bits of text, whatever.

But at that moment, it's like, it's like, stop being so doubtful or something.

And she was like, Oh, my God, okay, I'm gonna go read the article right now.

So it's like, we remember these moments where it works for us and we forget more often the times where it just doesn't work.

Are the physical objects more effective or less effective than the plugins or the websites?

I think they're more effective in the sense that like, it's amazing what a physical object can do to just give people like an excuse.

And so that was part of the thinking with the conversa cube because it was like, you know, people are really just starting to get smartphones and for it to be more widespread.

And I was like, what about this thing that we're all carrying these objects around?

So yeah, I think having an object, people are instantly like ready to just sort of act differently or like put aside some of their normal patterns and see what this thing does in the space.

The apps and extensions are nice, though, because it means I don't have to get objects to people.

It's like anyone can download it, and the reach is so much wider.

And What I really like about it is this question of like, okay, so you saw the little video trailer and maybe you feel upset or excited or confused, but then you could just click download and do you.

And if you do, then how do you use this app and why?

It's not just something you see and muse about.

Because I was wondering how often you get pulled toward commercial interest with these projects.

Because I think we were talking before we started recording about people asking you to like make a startup or misunderstanding the project as a startup.

Do you ever feel like, I mean, the cube is a perfect example, like the desire to do like a giant Kickstarter for something like that?

I also had this like happiness hat that would detect if you're smiling and then like stab you in the back of the head until you started smiling again to train your brain and that 1 like people were really like writing me asking to buy them.

I guess for me it's just like how I know how much some I've seen friends do Kickstarter's I know how much time goes into just like figuring out manufacturing and production and everything and that's not where I want to spend my time particularly.

So I think the software gets to that point of mass distribution.

So yeah, so 1 thing that I am curious about is how people do consume and even buy digital art or digital media in general.

I know that like you make websites and apps and stuff and not everything's physical, so it's like kind of hard to sell, but where do you see that going as far as like people consuming and purchasing it?

Yeah, it's interesting because I don't think anyone has found the ideal model yet.

I know a few artists that have found something that works for them.

They have a specific contract they use for selling a website or transferring ownership of something.

But there's not like 1 universal way of dealing with it in the way that there is with like, you know, selling a painting or something like that or selling a sculpture.

And there's also the trickiness of just like, if I sell you a digital file what is there anything wrong with like just making a copy and giving it to someone else like is there some difference between the copy of a file or the original or if I sell you a you know an app and the app no longer works with your current version of your phone, is that still an interesting thing to own?

Right, are you like now the project manager forever?

So people have different ways around this.

Sometimes there's contracts for how long you maintain something.

But yeah, so for me, I don't, the only context in which I've kind of sold an app before, well usually it's free because I'm just interested in people trying it.

That's not where I'm trying to make money, but 1 time I made this app that a lot of people, it got to the front page of Reddit and so all these people started downloading it and I hadn't really built the server for that use case.

I was expecting maybe 1,000 people at most.

And so I needed people to just like stop dealing with us so I just like added a price.

And then like a few hours later I felt like, oh I feel bad, like I just want this to be free.

But in that time I made like a few thousand dollars and I was like oh great.

Did you refund everyone or did you keep it?

During that 1 window when it wasn't free.

That's like the exact inversion of almost every other company.

It's interesting, because I was wondering about why there aren't more digital artists.

I know there are obviously a lot of them, but more prolific, more really well-known.

And I was wondering if that issue around selling and buying stuff is actually a part of it.

Because if you're a painter, if you're the rare combination of someone who's a painter, who also has some like business savvy and can sell stuff, like you can survive.

Whereas like someone like you, like you teach at UCLA, which is awesome, but Like that's not solely your art, right?

And yeah, I'm just curious, like what like innovative models artists are trying to like push on right now to try and create that stuff?

Or if you think that like maybe everyone becomes artists and this is just like the side thing for lots of people.

Yeah, it's, I think part of the difficulty comes out of just the market around buying and selling art is very conservative, because you are agreeing that this particular object has this value, and it's all kind of consensus-based.

So it's very risk-adverse in the first place.

So anything digital is like, first of all, just like new and not necessarily like we've established this as art and it's okay.

But I've seen like different models, you know, there's, you know, things like electric objects where you can, which is a platform for people to distribute images, and they've tried like a number of different subscription or selling models.

I was talking with someone at a company recently where they are trying to use the blockchain as a way to sign, kind of verify the originality of a digital file.

So you might make a copy, but you wouldn't have the bit marked 1 or something like that.

But I haven't seen any model that really like has worked or has caught on in any way.

I mean, the thing is, I think it used to be like, oh, there's these digital artists, and you're saying they're still not really represented in the art world at large.

But also, every artist is starting to use technology now.

Like seeing these, you know, I teach in a program that uses technology, but seeing the grad students in fine arts, like they're all like making gifts and using computers and using like 3D software.

So I think they're going to have to figure out something because this is not going back into the box.

Totally, or you have to get really good at painting or something.

So is there, like, what are you really excited about right now?

I'm, I don't know if excited is the right word, but I've been like really obsessed with just all this home automation stuff and thinking about Alexa and products like that Google home and it's It's so interesting for me compared to something like Google Glass, where people were kind of, there was this huge rejection of it when it came out.

Whereas with Alexa, I see like, oh, my parents have 1.

Actually, they got like 2 more for Christmas just because they liked it so much.

Or like, My grandma's got 1, or my friend has 1, and it's like nobody is having such a knee-jerk reaction to it.

And I think they are selling it really differently.

They kind of like don't make it too smart at first.

It's like, oh, it's just like a smart speaker.

And they don't talk about all the really technical things that could be done or they are doing already.

It's like, first, we have to get people used to the talking speaker.

And then it could be the talking speaker that controls everything and knows every detail about you and streams it all to the web or whatever.

But so, and for me, it's just so provocative that it's in the home.

And to think of the home is the place where you first learn how to be a person.

And talk to people, you learn what your culture and your values are and what your history is.

And a lot of that is shaped by your interactions with your environment.

And so then if you've got this device or this home system that is answering your questions or talking to you in a certain way or shaping your interactions, how does that change?

And it's a pretty small group of developers that are designing these things.

It's a very limited set of experiences or views.

How do you account for the huge range of people that might be using this?

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Artist Lauren McCarthy Will Be Your Home's Brain