- The Jocko Podcast Studio is hosting a podcast with Jocko and Mike to discuss their new program.
- Jocko introduces himself as a military veteran who now teaches civilians about leadership through his book and podcast.
- The podcast focuses on human nature, leadership, war, and struggle.
- Mike, also a military veteran, explains his transition from the military to facilitating successful veteran transitions.
- They discuss the challenges veterans face when transitioning to civilian life and the importance of setting realistic expectations.
- Mike talks about his involvement in a research project on veteran challenges and the creation of a comprehensive veteran transition program.
- They mention their involvement in Vetted, a social venture that aims to help veterans transition successfully.
- They discuss the decision to create a for-profit venture to have a greater impact.
- Jocko shares his experience of transitioning out of the military and how he started working with companies on leadership training.
- They explain how their work with companies led to the creation of a book on leadership.
- The podcast ends with a discussion on the transition process for Navy SEALs and the lack of training provided.

- The military does not adequately prepare soldiers for retirement and transitioning into civilian life.
- The Department of Labor runs a one-week program called TAPS to assist with the transition, but it is not sufficient.
- Echelon Front Overwatch is a company that provides a premium service to help special operations forces and combat aviators transition into the private sector.
- The company focuses on thorough vetting and preparation of candidates and places them in various industries.
- Echelon Front Overwatch also provides educational resources and offers a corporate skills apprenticeship program for veterans.
- The program emphasizes leadership skills gained from military experience and combines them with industry knowledge for success in civilian jobs.

- Military experience provides valuable leadership skills and high-stress environment training.
- Combining military experience with industry knowledge creates strong leaders in the civilian sector.
- The U.S. military is a premier leadership training platform due to its resources and time for training.
- Leadership development in the executive industry is growing as companies recognize the need to train internal talent.
- The military's leadership training is not enough on its own; experience and practice are crucial for developing effective leaders.
- Not all military members are exceptional leaders; there is a range of capabilities and personalities.
- Employers should interview veterans and assess their skills and fit for the job through scenarios and a trial period.
- Veterans may lack technical skills but can bring leadership, discipline, and people skills to the table.

- The speaker discusses the benefits of setting up a veteran fellowship program for recently separated veterans, allowing companies to test drive potential candidates before making a final offer.
- The speaker also talks about the concept of dichotomy of leadership and how it is important for leaders to balance different aspects, such as being too hands-off or too aggressive.
- The speaker mentions that their company, Echelon Front, operates based on their established culture and that they hire the right people who align with their values.
- They also discuss different styles of getting things done and the importance of modulating leadership based on the individual's needs and strengths.

- The speaker views Echelon Front as a rebranded version of Task Unit Bruiser from the Battle of Ramadi
- They emphasize the importance of trust, credibility, and performance in their work with Jocko
- They acknowledge that mistakes will happen but stress the importance of learning from them
- Task Unit Bruiser was a military unit known for its humility and excellence
- The speaker clarifies that they are not judging or screening people, but rather looking for individuals who are better than them to work with companies
- They discuss the concept of decentralized command and the importance of humility in leadership
- They highlight the success of Task Unit Bruiser in empowering new members to lead and achieve great results
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of setting up a culture where everyone's opinion matters and leads to success
- They acknowledge the limitations of controlling everything and stress the need for strong culture and commanders intent.

- The importance of setting up a strong culture in order for individuals to operate properly
- The upcoming book "Dichotomy of Leadership" will include stories from military experiences and echelon front
- The author writes about an hour a day, producing about 1,000 words per hour
- The discipline of writing every day helps maintain flow and memory of previous work
- The importance of discipline in achieving goals and projects
- One of the authors is focused on becoming a better father, while the other is constantly working on improving in various areas
- The mindset of high achievers is focused on the process rather than the end result
- Military tactics such as teamwork and cover move can increase effectiveness and throughput for startups.

- The importance of teamwork and working together for success
- The laws of combat and how they can be applied to startups
- The importance of having a strong team and trusting them
- The need to detach emotionally and reassess in order to make better decisions
- The daily warrior mindset and its impact on daily life

- The Jocko Podcast Studio hosts a podcast discussing a new program with Jocko and Mike, both military veterans.
- They discuss the challenges veterans face when transitioning to civilian life and the importance of setting realistic expectations.
- Mike talks about his involvement in a research project on veteran challenges and the creation of a comprehensive veteran transition program.
- They mention their involvement in Vetted, a social venture that aims to help veterans transition successfully.
- Jocko shares his experience of transitioning out of the military and how he started working with companies on leadership training.
- The podcast ends with a discussion on the lack of training provided for Navy SEALs during the transition process.
- Echelon Front Overwatch is a company that helps special operations forces and combat aviators transition into the private sector.
- The company focuses on thorough vetting and preparation of candidates and offers educational resources and a corporate skills apprenticeship program.
- Military experience provides valuable leadership skills and high-stress environment training.
- Combining military experience with industry knowledge creates strong leaders in the civilian sector.
- The U.S. military is a premier leadership training platform.
- Leadership development in the executive industry is growing.
- Not all military members are exceptional leaders; there is a range of capabilities and personalities.
- Employers should interview veterans and assess their skills and fit for the job through scenarios and a trial period.
- Veterans may lack technical skills but can bring leadership, discipline, and people skills to the table.
- The speaker discusses the benefits of setting up a veteran fellowship program for recently separated veterans.
- The speaker also talks about the concept of dichotomy of leadership and the importance of balancing different aspects.
- The speaker mentions that their company, Echelon Front, operates based on their established culture and values.
- They emphasize the importance of trust, credibility, and performance in their work.
- They discuss the concept of decentralized command and the importance of humility in leadership.
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of setting up a culture where everyone's opinion matters.
- The upcoming book "Dichotomy of Leadership" will include stories from military experiences and Echelon Front.
- The author writes about an hour a day, producing about 1,000 words per hour.
- The importance of discipline in achieving goals and projects.
- Military tactics can increase effectiveness and throughput for startups.
- The importance of teamwork and trusting the team.
- The need to detach emotionally and reassess for better decision-making.
- The daily warrior mindset and its impact on daily life.

- The speaker discusses their deep involvement in the military and their passion for it
- They mention the negative connotations associated with the military, but also highlight its importance and the positive impact it can have on individuals
- The conversation shifts to discussing MREs (Meals Ready to Eat) and how they are not enjoyable, but serve a purpose in austere environments
- The importance of water and food is emphasized, particularly in situations where they are scarce
- The speaker talks about the importance of consistency in culture, both on a macro and micro level, especially for leaders
- The speaker discusses the "muster" events organized by Echelon Front, which are leadership events aimed at making their services more accessible to small to mid-sized businesses
- The upcoming muster event in San Francisco is mentioned, highlighting its benefits for clients and those who cannot afford the full services of Echelon Front.

- The speaker believes that every problem a company faces is ultimately a leadership problem.
- Taking ownership and responsibility for these problems is essential for effective leadership.
- The speaker shares a personal anecdote about the impact of the leadership philosophy on a supplement company in Austin.
- The speaker believes that the leadership principles taught at the muster would be beneficial for startup teams in Silicon Valley.
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of being surrounded by like-minded individuals who want to achieve success.
- The websites mentioned for more information are extremeownership.com, echelonfront.com, and jockopodcast.com.

The speaker discusses their deep involvement in the military and their passion for it, highlighting the positive impact it can have on individuals. They also discuss the importance of MREs in austere environments and the significance of water and food in scarce situations. The speaker emphasizes the importance of consistency in culture and leadership, and mentions the upcoming muster event in San Francisco organized by Echelon Front. They believe that every problem a company faces is a leadership problem and stress the importance of taking ownership and responsibility. The speaker shares a personal anecdote about the impact of leadership philosophy on a supplement company in Austin and believes that the principles taught at the muster would benefit startup teams in Silicon Valley. They emphasize the importance of surrounding oneself with like-minded individuals and provide websites for more information.

Jocko Willink - https://twitter.com/jockowillink - and Mike Sarraille - https://twitter.com/mjsarraille - served together as Navy SEALs and now work together at Echelon Front - https://www.echelonfront.com/ -  a company Jocko cofounded.

We met up to talk about a new initiative they’ve set up called Overwatch. Overwatch is a talent acquisition firm that matches employers with veterans from special operations forces and combat aviation. You can learn more about Overwatch at https://www.efoverwatch.com/

They’re also hosting an event called the Muster in San Francisco on October 17th and 18th. You can sign up at https://www.extremeownership.com/

If you’d like to hear more from Mike and Jocko, check out Jocko Podcast Episode 134 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDWupT4tc8M

The YC podcast is hosted by Craig Cannon - https://twitter.com/craigcannon

We're accepting applications from startups for the Winter 2019 funding cycle. Apply here: http://ycombinator.com/apply

***

Topics
00:17 - Intros

4:20 - Mike and Jocko on how they transitioned out

8:50 - How the military prepares people for the private sector

13:00 - What is Overwatch?

22:45 - Preconceptions about veterans

27:37 - Advice for companies looking to hire veterans

30:16 - Jocko's next book, The Dichotomy of Leadership - https://www.amazon.com/Dichotomy-Leadership-Balancing-Challenges-Ownership/dp/1250195772

33:11 - Mike and Jocko's working relationship

44:33 - How to set up your team so everyone can contribute

54:15 - What Mike and Jocko are trying to improve about themselves

57:58 - Alex Badalyan asks - What are some military tactics startups could adopt to increase team effectiveness and throughput?

1:00:00 - Allen asks - From your experience as a SEAL and in the business world, do two or more co-founders/leaders have a higher success rate? What are your thoughts on a solo leader/founder with a strong team and culture?

1:06:09 - Armando Neves asks - I liked Jocko's episode on strategy and the way of the Samurai (The Book of Five Rings), how much of the warrior mindset is he implementing on a day to day basis?

1:10:30 - Ryan Carl Mercer asks - Favorite MRE and thank you for your service sir.

1:14:12 - Spencer Clark asks - Is culture more decided by micro or macro policies & interactions?

All right guys, well, thanks for hosting me.

I'm excited to do a podcast at the Jocko Podcast Studio.

For those of our listeners that don't know about you guys, I think we should start with some quick intros and then start talking about the new program you're working on.

Cool, I was in the military for 20 years and then I retired and when I retired I started working with civilians primarily and Teaching them about leadership that I've learned while I was in the military Mm-hmm

and that culminated in a book to know another

that ended up kind of morphing into a book called extreme ownership and that book came out and that book's done pretty well and That kind of morphed into a podcast.

So I have a podcast called Jocko podcast where I talk about Really talk about human nature through the lens of leadership and war and general atrocities and struggle that human beings go through So it's a little bit of a rough podcast to listen to from time to time, but there's a lot of a lot of lessons in it

Yeah, I mean, it's it really contrasts from the average podcast in the sense that it's sort of like you reading a book every single week or every other week and Just going through giving notes giving notes based on your experience

Yeah, it's it's interesting too because I get most of the books that I try and use our first-person accounts

of these situations So whether it's war or whether it's some kind of atrocity.

It's someone that was Actually there it's not an interpretation.

It's not what someone else thought that person thought it's what that person thought So I think that has the ability to take you into the minds of and see some of that stuff through a better perspective And the more you the more the more different perspectives you can get other than your own, the better you're gonna understand things.

Yeah, yeah, I've been blown away by like, I mean, the legs the podcast has.

When you started off, I was like, I don't know if he's gonna be able to find 50 books.

Because when I started, there was a few books, you know, about face by Hackworth.

There was 3 or 4 books that I knew I could cover that really had a big impact on me And then I then I reached a little bit I said we know I can do this 1 too, and when I started reading with the thought that What what can I learn from this not just not just what do I understand about it?

Then I started pulling out all these old books that I had read with the old breed just just books that are Incredible books and as I pulled Those out and now I realize the the actual problem isn't that there aren't enough books the actual problem Is that there's no possible way I can cover all the books that exist that?

We can learn from and that I can learn from so the problem ended up not being the problem I thought it initially was There's a lot of incredible books out there.

Well, you're doing a great job Mike What's your story

a much along the the same lines first off?

Thanks for having to have me on Y Combinator is dear to my heart because I was born and raised in Silicon Valley Much like Jocko.

I did something uncharacteristic to a kid coming out of Atherton, California, enlisted in the Marine Corps, and then eventually became a SEAL, and finished up and retired after 20 years.

In the book, Extreme Ownership, it's all about the Battle of Ramadi.

I was 1 of those guys that worked for Jocko and hence how we've known each other for so long.

I did not write a book because I believe in extreme ownership.

We can't replicate what is already working.

But really, I finished my MBA at the University of Texas right before I retired, and I just got into facilitating successful veteran transitions.

And when I say successful, a lot of the time that is not setting the expectation on the corporate side.

That is actually setting the expectations on the veteran's side and getting their heads right.

It's not an easy thing to hear after 20 years in the military that you are a new guy again, but you are.

You may have some great leadership tenets and foundational aspects of leadership But when you step into a different industry you step into a different industry and it takes time You got to roll your sleeves up.

You've got to get to work and you've got to prove your worth And so sometimes that's a lot tougher for veterans than the general public may know.

And I mean, that's really at the core of what we were going to talk about today.

And so how did that process go for both of you?

I mean, Mike, you got vetted going while you were still active, right?

I still don't know if that was the right decision.

When you're not coming from a totally stable financial position, you're still active duty starting a company, even though it was a social venture.

The timing might not have been right, but in retrospect, it is an organization that's going to do a lot of good for veterans.

And let me say this, when I stepped into the MBA program, I thought I was going to do investment banking.

And I realized really quickly that that did not play to my strengths and that I like to create things in front of me And I like to see the value proposition As I stand it up And quickly transition to focusing because there was a lot of teammates calling me that were like Mike did we know you have connections in Silicon Valley, can you help me get a job?

And I'm like, dude, what is going on here?

I'm like, these are, and Jocko knows a lot of these guys, are like amazing, amazing leaders.

And that's when I got Admiral McRaven involved, and we discussed the systemic challenges facing veterans, and Really started the foundation of what that it?

Came from which was a research project into those challenges facing veterans and then the so what how do we solve it?

that's when we got Wharton UT McCombs and Texas A&M Mays Business School involved.

And hence, we created what Huffington Post has called the most comprehensive veteran transition program in the nation.

00.20 And now you guys are starting it here to some extent.

So yes, we basically, we did the social side and Jocko and Leif have been involved in Vetted.

And now it's all those lessons learned from standing that up and we're capitalizing it.

We can do a lot more good on the for-profit side than we can on the non-profit side.

We didn't want to let those valuable lessons from standing this thing up just go to waste when we knew we could actually shake a lot more cages and rattle things loose in the for-profit realm.

Because your story, Jocko, when you transitioned out, is that when Echelon Front began?

Or did you think about finding a job somewhere?

No, so about 6 months before I retired, and my last job in the Navy was running the training for the West Coast SEAL teams and really what I was doing was Simulating combat and then putting leaders through leadership training That's what it was and So about 6 months prior to retiring a guy that I knew asked me to come and talk to his executive team about combat leadership and I thought you know okay cool.

I'll go do that and he said I'll give you some money And I said well that's makes it even a little bit cooler, so I went up and I talked and I Don't know what he expected me to talk about but whatever I you know I Basically gave the same brief that I would give the young junior officers when they were Entering the SEAL teams when they had graduated the the basic SEAL training I would give him a brief and I basically gave that same leadership brief to To these executives and when I got done the CEO came up to me and said hey I want you to do this for every division of my company And I said well, you know I'm retiring in 6 months And I'm not really looking to do anything like that and he says I'll give you money And I said well, okay, let's talk about that then and so then he ended up paying me and and At 1 of those divisional meetings the CEO of the parent company was there and when I got done the CEO of the parent company came up to me and He said hey, I want you to do this for all my CEOs I want you to come talk to all my CEOs and they owned 45 or 50 companies at the time So I did an event with 45 or 50 CEOs And got done with that and a bunch of those CEOs came up and said to me Hey, can you come and talk to my company and and that was where it started?

It didn't take very long for me to be stocked up with work and at the same time Leif Who wrote the book with me and Who was also in Ramadi and you know my dear friend and brother?

He had he was still in the Navy and he had met with a company that had come to do like a tour of the SEAL team and they they kind of were interested as well, and he kind of talked about leadership with them and as As soon as he was getting ready to get out he got out of 13 years I think I said hey man I need some fire support over here And so that's that's where that's where it started and and then like you said you know as we would go out and work with these Companies they'd say hey, do you have these do you guys have this stuff written down anywhere?

have a document you can give us or a manual you can give us and eventually we wrote we wrote that the stuff down more specifically and That's what turned into the book.

Okay, so I think we should explain like Basically how the transition process works from I mean the Seals of the Navy or more broadly because I didn't fully understand the Amount of training or the lack of amount of training that you got so I think most of our listeners don't know either So could you walk through what you get so, you know, you announce you're retiring What happens?

Don't think I'm really a great example that I think Mike would be better because I I told my chain of command that I was retiring and I Great relationships up my chain of command and it was a very hard decision to make But I told him I was retiring and then I finished out my my work, and then I went the civilian sector I I didn't even go to the There's a class called tap Transit I didn't even go to that I went to 0 so I got I didn't do anything and I wouldn't recommend that there's a lot.

I know there's a lot of good good information by the time I was retiring I well I was pretty much just good to go and on another path moving down this road and Didn't need to do anything else I need to do what I need to do is go forward and continue to Work with civilian leaders and expand working with more companies.

I'm not a great example of How to set yourself up for retirement Or how the Navy transitions you for retirement.

Yeah, I could actually provide us some context for that So, you know for your average and by what I mean average, it's not average in talent, just your general soldier, airman, sailor, marine, when you make the decision to get out, you know, the military starts you on a process.

Unfortunately, you're pretty much focused on your work almost up to the day you get out.

And because you want to do such a good job and you want to pass off a good product to whoever's coming behind you to ensure their success, That's what vets do.

And so you focus very little on your actual transition.

And then all of a sudden you get an exiting document from the military.

So the military does a really good job of training people on the front end.

I mean, for the SEAL community, we'll use that as an example.

I mean, you go through basically 2 years of training before you even show up to a SEAL team.

You know very specifically how to do your job.

And of course, over the course of your SEAL career, you hone the art.

The military does do a great job of transitioning people out and preparing them for success.

What they did was outsource the process to the Department of Labor, hence this transition assistance program called TAPS.

And even though TAPS are run by awesome, awesome Americans.

We have people in the Department of Labor running those programs that have very little private sector time themselves.

So federal government employees should not be preparing veterans for jobs in the private sector.

And TAPS is a basically a cursory program that covers all your VA benefits.

Here are some sources for how to do your resume.

And the Department of Labor does very well with the problems that they were handed.

It just, as a whole, we're underserving our veterans and preparing them for successful transitions.

that's why we need to rely more on the private sector to get involved and actually solve it for the government.

At the end of the day, the military needs to focus on what's important, and that is winning wars.

If we want the military to get good at transitioning veterans out, that draws resources from elsewhere, which means we're sending less prepared soldiers airmen Marines and sailors Overseas to face the threats that they have to face.

Mm-hmm So again, you know if people think well the military should do a better job of this It's not all on the military.

I know the military has their job their real job, which is to defend this country and to take folks away from that.

So you're stepping in and trying to like solve this mismatch of education, right, between the private market and military.

And so what does the current program look like for you guys?

So, the name of the company that we unveiled on July 4th is Echelon Front Overwatch.

We focus specifically on the special operations forces.

That is your Green Berets, your Navy SEALs, your MARSOC Raiders, Air Force PJs, Pararescue Men, CCT, and then combat aviators.

So we had to start with a small group, nail that market, and then maybe we can expand down the road to all veterans.

Because we're not saying that soft and combat aviators are the only ones that are going to be successful in the private sector.

And there's a lot of cases that actually defy that.

We do a lot of preparation on the front side, preparing our candidates, 1, the vetting process.

Jocko and I are gonna tell you, like, our industry in the military is much like any industry.

You have high performers, those middle or road performers, and then the substandard performers.

Echelon Front Overwatch will not place anyone that is substandard in any company because we at the end of the day are concerned about our credibility in the private sector.

So we put a lot of diligence into preparing and vetting the candidates that we present to our clients.

Ultimately, vets know or think they know what they want to do when they get out.

So that's why we'll place in any industry.

But we do have a thorough process to vet them and prepare them and we do put a lot of the work on Veterans, you know our golden rule on the website is no 1 will own your transition for you Not even us we shouldn't you have to own this we are not gonna, you know, completely do your resume for you We'll revise it But if you're not willing to roll your sleeves up, and especially, here's the key, not willing to be humble and not willing to work hard, then this is not for you.

And so every candidate we produce is going to be a 1 established leader in the military, is humble, is ready to work.

They're ready to listen to somebody in that industry and learn the tools of the trade and then apply the leadership they learned in the military to succeed.

And are you applying any particular like educational regimen for them?

So, you know, actually I'm pretty proud of the career resources page on Echelon Front Overwatch.

If you go to efoverwatch.com, under the career resources tab, we've laid out a six-step process for veterans to follow.

And it starts with know thyself, a lot of personal assessments.

We always talk about Echelon Front, brutal self-assessments to know your strengths, know your weaknesses, specifically to play to your strengths and know how to augment your weaknesses.

And then it goes from there of re-educating yourself.

1, doing a lot of career and industry research to identify if a certain industry or company is the right fit, that's on them.

There's a lot of great programs out there.

Vetted, the Veteran Accelerated Management Program.

And the 1 thing about vets is we do lack a business acumen.

We come from a different industry where we have a completely set of tools.

And if I took a CEO from a tech company in Silicon Valley, they would be blown away watching us go through the military decision-making process and how diligent it is.

So for vets, they have to learn the hard skills in the new industry they're stepping into.

And that's 1 of the things when working with clients and we place a candidate into that company is we lay out all the steps they need to sort of retrain themselves to learn those tools.

So if they're stepping into digital marketing, we're going to lay out a number of digital marketing courses that they can take when they step into the job so it's on-the-job training.

And again, that Overwatch phase of maintaining contact with the candidate and client.

The 1 thing, and simply learn in your backyard, in August, we are unveiling the corporate skills apprenticeship program for veterans.

It's simply Learn and Echelon Front Overwatch are spearheading this.

It'll include digital marketing, digital selling, PMP, Lean 6 Sigma, so process improvement, Agile, and then also business analyst certifications.

But we got a great discount for veterans And if someone goes through the other program there is no doubt that they're you know starting salary with all those certifications Will go up.

It's just hey Here's the thing you have to be willing to sit down and do the work and get through that corporate skills apprenticeship program, but it's worthwhile.

I just turned 39 because I did a little bit over 20 years.

So I, I got out at a 40, enlisted when I was, 19.

But not, I mean, we have veterans getting out at all stages, guys in their young twenties that just do, you know, 4 to 6 years and then guys that do more than us getting out in their 50s.

guess what, they want to get after it in the private sector.

I mean, they have a whole life ahead of them.

Yeah, and the thing is, as Mike was talking about, like sure, there's skills that you have to learn for these specific industries.

And quite honestly, that's the easy part.

Like, if you blow it off, it'll crush you.

Yeah, you address it You'll you'll get those skills but the hard part that people need and what makes this program great Is that you got people that have experience and leadership and experience leading other human beings to accomplish very challenging missions over short periods of time and over long periods of time and That is what is challenging and it's much harder to Train someone to be a leader than it is to train someone about some technical aspect of a job or even the background of a job It's it takes much more time.

It takes dozens of years and that's what we've got in this situation We've got people that have Not only learned those leadership skills and they've applied those leadership skills over and over again in high stress environments There's no better way we could prepare people for leadership in the civilian sector then have them Serve in the military and being leadership positions, And then you take them out you polish them up with the industry knowledge which again hey I'm not taking anything away from the industry knowledge It's important And it's it's hard to learn But the level that a leader needs to learn it isn't the same level that the ground troop needs to know it so they they Acquire the skill set and then they've they apply what they've got from the military and what they've got from their leadership experience, and you've got a winner right there.

Yeah, well it's as Mike said before, you know, it's this practiced experience as compared to an MBA, which is too, I mean like 2 months into your MBA you're looking for your internship?

The thing about leadership in the executive development industry is the year-over-year growth is amazing because companies realize they have to train their internal talent, they have to build talent from within, is that, you know, at the end of the day, the U.S.

Military, and we talked about this before, is the preeminent leadership training platform in the world, because we have the resources and the time to do it.

I mean, If you step into the military, whether you enlist or you're an officer, you're going through an initial three-month, 24-7 restructuring program and training program to get you ready for the rigors of the military and 1 to lead.

And officer candidate school and boot camps, I mean, there's a methodology to the design.

You know, the Marine Corps is probably the best at putting people through Marine boot camp and turning Young girls and boys into men and women and it's amazing that process has just not been replicated by anyone

Yeah, yeah And it's it's the whole thing with with leadership is that it takes time it takes time to develop those skills and the other thing is it's it's It's hard It's hard to do and you've got all these crazy people that that work for you I know regardless of what situation you're in you know that's 1 thing 1 of the 1 of the myths about the military So everyone in the military is just they're like robots, and they'll just listen to what everyone says well the fact the matter is That's that's not true and even in even inside the SEAL teams everyone thinks all these guys are just so motivated They'll do whatever you say that's completely untrue the guys in the SEAL teams You've got All kinds of just like any other group of people you got egos you got personalities you got different motivations that are driving people You got people that get get wrapped around their own plan that they come up with and they don't want to listen to anyone else Or it's you have to work through all those problems So people that have experience doing that over time you can't you can't buy that experience you can't go to school for that experience And even the fact that the military takes people and puts you through leadership training that right there alone isn't enough What really makes the people in the military get become good leaders is that they lead.

They lead, and they succeed sometimes, and they fail sometimes.

And if they go through their career, they learn from those failures, and they become better, and they don't make those mistakes again, and by the time they're getting ready to move on, They know what they're doing.

So I think many people, actually, given the success of your podcast, think that when someone comes out of the sales, they're like, oh, it's a Jocko, or it's a Mike.

And I think because So as a percentage of the population, so few people know any of these elite members of the service.

There are these preconceptions that people get in their head.

And I think now is a good time to just like dispel those and honestly like explain what people are expecting.

So when you guys are talking to an employer, what are you coaching them with?

How are you instructing them to like, this is what's reality and this is what you may think?

Well, you got individuals, first of all, and Just like just like any group of people it's a bell curve right and just like Mike just talked about you got people at the High end of the bell curve you got people at the low end of the bell curve You got a bunch of people in the middle of the bell curve and our job Before we place someone is to make sure that they're at the high end of the bell curve Because There's you're a hundred percent right and we'll talk about seals for example As far as someone that's in civilian sector a seal is a seal is a seal is a seal if you if you were in The seal teams you're good to go You're a you're just a perfect leader, and you're a great You've Got a great way to deal with stress, and you can overcome all these problems.

It's like that's actually not true there's a lot of great guys in the SEAL teams and There's some spectacular Individuals in the SEAL teams and there's also guys there's a bunch of people that are middle that do their job And they do a great job, And then there's people on the low end of the spectrum that They don't do a good job, and they manage to stay in and this is true with the Marine Corps Yeah, sure with the army.

It's special force true with everyone every group has their their bottom feeders in there And so what we do is make sure that some none of those bond bottom feeders get placed by us Because it's very hard for a civilian to tell the difference between you know I always ask I always ask employers this have you ever interviewed somebody and you thought I am about to hire

crush this and I'm set for life because I got this guy coming on my team or this girl coming on my team.

And then how often does that person turn out to be horrible?

You know, okay, let's say you're pretty good.

Even if you're pretty good at judging those situations, you're still probably only batting like 70 or 80 percent at best 20% of time You're hiring someone that is a disaster people learn to interview well Some people can interview very well some people some people are great workers But they interview horribly And you can't tell from looking at the resume when you sit and talk to me, I don't see this guy or girl working out.

So it's the same thing with the SEAL teams.

It's the same thing with any group, any group.

And so what we're doing is taking a look at these people.

We're making sure that we're screening them properly, and know and understand their reputation through our connections, and then train them and test them, and make sure that they are on board and think the way we think, and are going to be a good fit for where we're placing them.

I think Jocko pretty much summarized that pretty well.

Naturally, people's perceptions of the military come out of the books and the movies, primarily the movies.

And so, you know, a lot of people think we just run around the bases singing cadences 24-7.

They're usually of high emotional intelligence.

And if they don't, even within our respective communities, again, we're using the SEAL community, we tend to minimize those bottom feeders, as Jaco referred to them.

If they are bipolar and just have low emotional intelligence, we were like, okay, yes, we're going to shift you over to this job here because you can do this job well and it's not on the front line and it won't have any major consequences.

That happens within our community as well.

But we know, and here's the great thing about the special operations community and the combat aviators is we can reach back to our respective colleagues that are still in the community and say, hey, John Doe, thumbs up, thumbs down.

So at the end of the day, I tell a lot of employers like, hey, we don't even charge a retainer like a lot of recruiting firms.

So if a company comes to us, we're not going to charge you for a retainer fee.

Just give us 3 promised interviews and we want the dates and times.

we'll put our candidates in front of you.

Like, oh, wow, totally demystified what I thought about veterans.

Yeah, we know we know and That that changes a lot of perceptions.

You just got to talk to them and you recognize.

So for those who aren't fortunate enough to work with you guys Do you have some advice for companies interviewing veterans or looking to interview veterans?

This is the question that's comes up all the time It comes up from every company I work with and it came up in the SEAL teams And you've probably heard me talk about this.

It's really hard to judge a book by the cover and We you know I I was in you you watch people going to the basic seal training course and you look at a Group of 10 people and You're not gonna know who's gonna make it through and who's not gonna make it through That's the way it is and the only way to figure out who's gonna make it through is to put them through it Yeah, that's the only way now So what I recommend to companies all the time is when you you know, yes, you want to do a thorough interview Yes, you want to give them scenarios?

Yes, you want to put some pressure on them and figure out where they're coming from.

But what you really want to do is say, look, we're going to bring you on as a contractor for 90 days and see what you're like, see what you're like, and see if you can really do what it is you say you can do and see if you're going to lose your temper and see if you're going to get crazy on some minute thing that doesn't really matter and see if you're gonna work hard Like all those things are things that you need to explore when you're dealing with a hiring situation

standard best practices cool standard, I mean you could the only thing I'd say is when you when you do have a veteran and or you're looking to hire a veteran Again going back to the technical skills that they may or may not have that's okay Take a look at their technical skills and say you know what?

Are they in the ballpark and can we give them a little bit of leniency because we know that they've got some experience And some leadership skills that we're can bring the table and they've got some discipline and they've got some Some people skills that they can bring the table.

So all those are all those are good things

So 1 of the services it's worth mentioning that you know, basically this this test drive before you make a final offer We actually will work with companies to set up a veteran fellowship For recently separated veterans so they get this Great Veteran for anywhere from 6 months to 12 years at a industry standard salary as a fellowship working in there and then they get to make that final determination at the end of the 6 months or 12 months of Yes, this is a good candidate for this company we want to make a final offer.

And then what it allows veterans to do as well, sort of, you know, the altruism side of the company is you're giving them great industry experience where they can come back to us and we can find another company that is a right culture fit.

You've been on a warpath writing in the past couple years I'm curious about the next book.

dichotomy leadership this is another 1 I'm writing with oh we actually wrote it's with it's with laif once again and the title is dichotomy leadership and so as as which is actually chapter 12 in extreme ownership is called the dichotomy leadership and the reason for that is the reason that we ended up writing a whole book about it now is as we work with companies over the past years and We'd look and see what what problems were they having where were the issues that they were having And it was always trying to find this balance in the various dichotomies of leadership of which there is I think in Infinite numbers number so for instance as a leader if you go too far in 1 direction you become a micromanager Mm-hmm And now your people lose any initiative and they stop taking charge of things and they stop they stop moving forward without your permission So you're micromanaging them too much, and that's bad You go too far in the other direction where now they they don't they don't even know what Your strategy is you don't communicate with them enough.

They don't know which direction they're supposed to be heading.

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Jocko Willink and Mike Sarraille - Helping Veterans Transition into the Private Sector