- Kevin, a partner at Y Combinator, and Mike, the chief product officer at Zapier, discuss their backgrounds and the concept of remote work.
- Zapier is a software that automates tasks at work, making users more productive by integrating different tools.
- The founders of Zapier met through Y Combinator and Kevin provided insights on remote work and integrating tools based on his experience with his company, Wufoo.
- Zapier's growth strategy has been focused on getting more apps on their platform, and they initially built the first 50-60 apps themselves to jumpstart the ecosystem.
- Zapier's value proposition to partners was centered around retention and providing access to a wide range of integrations for free.
- Early adoption and recommendations of Zapier came from support teams and sales teams who found it useful for customer requests and closing deals.
- Zapier's app directory and landing pages were built before the product itself to gauge market demand and generate interest.
- The core mechanics of Zapier were prototyped during a startup weekend, and the first three apps integrated were PayPal, HiRise, and Twitter.

- The founders of Zapier came up with the idea during a Startup Weekend demo, where they showcased the ability to receive live tweets and payments through PayPal.
- They initially applied to YC with just a prototype and got rejected, but it motivated them to work harder and gain traction.
- By the second time they applied to YC, they had hundreds of conversations and users, with some paying for the service.
- The founders were initially working on Zapier as a side project while having full-time jobs, but after YC, they committed to working on it full-time.
- They started as a remote company with just the three founders and later hired a remote support person.
- The decision to be a remote company was driven by necessity, cost-effectiveness, and the belief that it was a better way to run the company.
- They were profitable and saw no need for an office or commute.
- The founders mentioned the success of Wufoo, another remote company, as inspiration.
- They resisted the pressure to have an office and believed in the profitability and efficiency of being a remote company.

- The belief in remote work at Zapier was driven by logistics and practicality, as well as the desire for autonomy and setting their own goals.
- The company values autonomy and default action, attracting individuals who enjoy working alone.
- It is important for employees to have a social network outside of work.
- Past experience with remote work is a good signal for success, but there is a learning curve.
- The ability to default to action and take initiative is a key trait looked for in interviews.
- Remote work requires explicit processes and communication frameworks.
- Balancing deep work and collaboration is important in remote teams.
- Knowing when to increase the bandwidth of communication is crucial.
- Zapier implemented rules to limit long discussions and ensure efficiency.
- In remote companies, it may be challenging to get someone's full attention, but it protects individual attention.
- Social norms in remote organizations include acknowledging Slack messages within 24 hours.

- Zapier, a remote company with employees all over the world, values hiring individuals who take initiative and find other tasks to work on when they are blocked in their primary task.
- The design and product teams at Zapier work closely together and have a shared ownership over goals and projects.
- The company uses OKRs (Objectives and Key Results) to align teams and create focus on customer impact.
- Zapier encourages autonomy and experimentation within teams while maintaining consistency in interfaces and project management processes.
- Teams are created based on new opportunities and areas of the product that need improvement, and individuals generally stay with their teams for the long term.
- OKRs are set on an annual and monthly basis, with high-level direction set by leadership and work prioritization happening at the team level.
- Zapier has built its own internal tools, such as an internal blog called Async, to facilitate communication and reduce noise in Slack.

- The use of Slack in remote teams can lead to overwhelming amounts of noise and pressure to keep up with messages.
- Zapier encourages its employees to leave Slack channels to reduce pressure and noise.
- Zapier created an internal blog called Async for more thoughtful and long-term work discussions.
- The company uses email for external communication but does not send any internal emails.
- Zapier also uses Quip for long-form documentation and building processes.
- The company invests in building internal tools, with some becoming separate startups.
- Zapier holds two company retreats a year to build relationships and empathy among employees.
- The retreats include structured activities like hackathons and unstructured time for cross-team collaboration.

- The company implemented unstructured time during retreats to encourage cross-team collaboration and idea sharing.
- The success of this approach was determined through feedback and observation of the teams taking advantage of the time.
- Design critiques were conducted through exercises like the 9 box design exercise and Tuesday/Thursday design reviews.
- Remote collaboration was facilitated through Zoom calls, encouraging participants to share their ideas and provide feedback without muting themselves.
- The company also implemented processes like pair buddies and sharing work documentation to foster communication and prevent information silos.
- Starting a remote company requires a cultural change rather than just implementing processes and tools. Setting up a culture that encourages action, autonomy, and explicit communication is crucial.

- The importance of writing down and sharing work in a distributed organization is emphasized
- Building a culture of written communication and over-communication is crucial
- Autonomy and written communication are identified as the two most important values in a remote company
- Scaling asynchronous communication is a challenge that needs to be addressed
- GitLab, Envision, and Automatic are mentioned as remote organizations to look up to for inspiration
- The key takeaway is that remote work is possible and there are successful examples to learn from.

Kevin, a partner at Y Combinator, and Mike, the chief product officer at Zapier, discuss their backgrounds and the concept of remote work. Zapier is a software that automates tasks at work, making users more productive by integrating different tools. The founders of Zapier met through Y Combinator and Kevin provided insights on remote work and integrating tools based on his experience with his company, Wufoo. Zapier's growth strategy has been focused on getting more apps on their platform, and they initially built the first 50-60 apps themselves to jumpstart the ecosystem. Early adoption and recommendations of Zapier came from support teams and sales teams who found it useful for customer requests and closing deals. The founders of Zapier came up with the idea during a Startup Weekend demo, where they showcased the ability to receive live tweets and payments through PayPal. They initially applied to YC with just a prototype and got rejected, but it motivated them to work harder and gain traction. By the second time they applied to YC, they had hundreds of conversations and users, with some paying for the service. The founders were initially working on Zapier as a side project while having full-time jobs, but after YC, they committed to working on it full-time. They started as a remote company with just the three founders and later hired a remote support person. The decision to be a remote company was driven by necessity, cost-effectiveness, and the belief that it was a better way to run the company. The belief in remote work at Zapier was driven by logistics and practicality, as well as the desire for autonomy and setting their own goals. Balancing deep work and collaboration is important in remote teams. Zapier implemented rules to limit long discussions and ensure efficiency. In remote companies, it may be challenging to get someone's full attention, but it protects individual attention. Zapier, a remote company with employees all over the world, values hiring individuals who take initiative and find other tasks to work on when they are blocked in their primary task. The design and product teams at Zapier work closely together and have a shared ownership over goals and projects. Zapier encourages autonomy and experimentation within teams while maintaining consistency in interfaces and project management processes. Teams are created based on new opportunities and areas of the product that need improvement, and individuals generally stay with their teams for the long term. Zapier holds two company retreats a year to build relationships and empathy among employees. Remote collaboration was facilitated through Zoom calls, encouraging participants to share their ideas and provide feedback without muting themselves. Starting a remote company requires a cultural change rather than just implementing processes and tools. The importance of writing down and sharing work in a distributed organization is emphasized. Autonomy and written communication are identified as the two most important values in a remote company. Scaling asynchronous communication is a challenge that needs to be addressed. The key takeaway is that remote work is possible and there are successful examples to learn from.

Mike Knoop is cofounder and Chief Product Officer at Zapier, which was in the YC Summer 2012 batch. Zapier moves information between your web apps automatically.

https://twitter.com/mikeknoop
https://zapier.com

Kevin Hale is a Visiting Partner at YC. Before YC Kevin was the cofounder of Wufoo, which was funded by YC in 2006 and acquired by SurveyMonkey in 2011.

https://twitter.com/ilikevests

The YC podcast is hosted by Craig Cannon.

https://twitter.com/craigcannon

***

Topics

00:10 - Kevin's intro

00:30 - Mike's intro

1:30 - How Mike and Kevin met

3:30 - Market sizing for consumer software

4:40 - Zapier's growth strategy today vs 2012

5:55 - Jumpstarting a platform like Zapier

8:30 - Building an app directory before building a product

10:30 - Applying to YC twice

12:50 - Zapier after Demo Day

14:15 - Zapier's first remote hire

16:15 - Remote companies not being perceived as legitimate

18:15 - Noticing remote was working then committing

20:55 - Qualities to look for when hiring remote employees

23:55 - Nina Mehta asks - What’s the best way to share work and knowledge across designers working on different parts of product without distracting from focused working time?

25:25 - Remote mistakes in the early days

27:00 - When to change modes of communication to allow for deep work

28:55 - When to ask for someone's full attention

31:00 - Product and design practices at Zapier

34:05 - OKRs for teams vs individuals

39:15 - Tools for remote teams

43:15 - No internal email at Zapier

46:20 - Keeping morale high in a remote team

48:45 - What happens at a Zapier retreat

51:10 - Remote design critiques

56:10 - Serendipity and over optimizing for it

58:00 - Setting up a remote company for success

For people who don't know you, what do you do?

I founded a company called Wufoo back in 2006.

And that company, appropriately, was a no-office company.

We were all remote all the way back then.

I'm their chief product officer, and I originally started out as a front-end engineer and a product designer, so I have a very deep appreciation for those areas, and I think has kind of how I came to run some of the design team today and I've thought a lot about scaling design teams over the last 7 or 8 years.

Zapier is a piece of software that helps you automate your tasks at work, helps you be more productive.

So if you have, if you use multiple tools for your job and you're trying to, like you've manually copying and pasting data from 1 tool to the other all day as part of like a task you do, you can use Zapier to automate that and have it done automatically in the background.

So an example would be like, if you are a, let's say a project manager and you've got a team that works out of GitHub and you wanted to send some notifications into Slack or into JIRA whenever those issues get closed, you could set that up, just as 1 example.

Because you've known each other for a while.

Kevin G Yeah, I came over to the place that you guys were working when you guys were doing YC, and we just talked for a couple hours.

It was a really interesting conversation.

Basically I told you, this is what we did at Wufoo, and I was like, you should basically just do a lot of the same things.

In regards to, think about remote work, that you're going to be doing this for a really long time.

And then integrations was patching a bunch of things together to a form builder, was a feature at Wufoo.

But to me, I saw what they were doing was turning that into an actual business.

And so a lot of my insights were like, this is what works for us, it's really powerful and I totally get why every other company would be interested in Zapier.

Yeah, You're definitely 1 of the people who saw the early, I think, vision of what Zapier could be.

And form software is such a good use case because the data never ends in a form.

Usually it's once someone submits a form, I want to go put it in my CRM or qualify that lead or put them in an email list somewhere.

It's actually interesting that I think the life cycle of people getting their business online, it's like you start off with I need a presence.

It's like how do I get my stuff out there?

And so you use website builders by default to become really big.

We didn't realize this when we started, but we understood this later on, was that, oh, then people need to figure out, how do I collect data from all these people that are coming to us?

And so form building, contact forms, etc., all of that became really relevant in surveys.

And then the next thing is, oh, now I have all this new data, what do I do with it?

And that's like, Zapier's like the next step.

So these are like the 3 stages of every company of like, oh, this is what I need.

I remember early days, Wufoo, people would talk to us about like, so what's your TAM?

What's like your total addressable market?

And we literally would just like, I'm not doing that.

Because it'd be like, everyone that ever has a website, everyone who needs to collect data, like do you want me to calculate that?

Yeah, I sometimes think those exercises while useful are sometimes like a little misleading.

It's misleading when your market is so ridiculously large.

Yeah, when you're thinking about a consumer adoption.

And for us, when we think about this opportunity, certainly when we got started, our ambitions were, hey, can we build a cool piece of software and support ourselves?

But over the years, I think we realized, whoa, we've tapped into something that almost every person who uses apps and software to get their job done should be using something like Zapier.

There's this huge explosion in SAF software in the industry that is like the barrier to entry to creating software is so low and distributing software is so low that you get these niche tools and more and more folks are using these niche tools and bringing them into the workplace.

So something almost out of necessity has to exist like Zapier in order to be able to make those tools play well together.

And a lot of times, just because of the dynamics of the explosion and how many tools there are, there's no 1 player in that marketplace that's going to be incentivized to go build thousands of integrations with everyone else.

Yeah, I mean at this point, surely you do have to be thinking more specifically about personas and like growing out individual markets, right?

So how do you approach it now that you have so many users?

Yeah, honestly, to date, it's still a very horizontal strategy.

We have mostly focused over the last 7 years about getting more and more apps on Zapier and getting the tools people want on Zapier.

I think that's been 1 of the things that actually surprised me was how much growth we've been able to get out of like the initial I guess decision back in 2012 to build an open platform.

Looking back that was definitely 1 of the better decisions I think we made in the early days.

We built the first 50 or 60 apps on Zapier ourself, Brian Wade and I, just to bootstrap that engine.

When we launched in 2012, I remember we had live chat, I think, Alark on the site at the time.

And we got, literally we launched in TechCrunch and had 3 days straight where all the chat messages we were answering was just people asking for apps that we didn't support, and I had never even heard of.

And it opened my eyes, and opened I think all of our eyes, that if we're gonna get this thing to scale, we have to figure out a way to get those apps on Zapier, and we just can't do it with 3 people.

We don't have money to hire, we can't build these ourselves, so we have to figure out a way that partners can build those things on Zapier.

And at that point, we had enough inertia momentum from the launch and from early users that were really excited about the product and that carried us.

Jumpstart that, because I think that's like everyone, especially I remember back then, people were talking about the platform.

And the thing is, jump starting that is difficult.

Just because you put up an API and tell people, hey, if you go and do this, then you're gonna get benefit.

How did you guys in the early days get people to be like, I will program against your thing so that I can be part of your ecosystem when it was very, very small.

It is interesting how every SaaS company, every software company eventually get big enough and you want to be a platform.

I think I'd always, I'd heard the heuristic of like once you get big enough where you could carve off 1% of your revenue and that could be its own standalone business, like you've kind of reached a critical mass that you could actually build a platform that has legs and can sustain itself for us in the early days.

I think the thing that we leaned on really heavily was the value proposition to some of our partners building on Zapier.

It wasn't just, most of the time these platforms plays, 1 of the big mechanics you see people building on platforms is for distribution.

Like I might go wanna be in the Salesforce AppExchange because that way more Salesforce customers can learn about the fact that I exist and might discover me.

We didn't have a big user base in the beginning.

The value we gave to partners was around retention.

If they built, they integrated with Zapier, they got access to 50, 60 at the time, integrations that were maintained and scaled and were adding more to it, and they got it for free.

So it allows them to go say to their customers who are asking for these integrations, no longer do they have to say, hey sorry, no we'll put that on our to-do list or our feature backlog and we all know how that goes.

They could start saying, hey yes, you can do that with our product.

It was a way for them to say yes to customer requests.

There's actually a way for you to do this, go

There was value to them beyond just user acquisition that incentivized them in the early days to build on Zapier.

Did it end up being that a lot of people on the front lines recommending you were then support people.

Because for us, in our company, customer support was where all these feature requests would come in.

And so it ended up being, I would imagine a lot of them were like, hey, here's the stopgap, here's how I satisfy you.

We would get listed a lot in help docs, help documentation.

Sales is also another avenue where we get mentioned a lot, where Zapier basically helps them close a deal with a customer that they're trying to upsell or convert into a paid plan.

Was that the start of your dominance in SEO stuff?

It was like, oh, we get people linking to us.

We built our app directory before we built the product.

Before we launched in TechCrunch, that whole story was, we had been working on Zapier for about 5 months, I think, at that point.

The very first thing we did when we sat down was we built our app directory, which was landing pages, and we used that to try and gauge what people wanted us to build.

We had a very big opportunity cost on our time.

in the beginning, how many apps did you guys integrate and do before you actually had people integrating and doing the work

But we had landing pages for I think a few hundred at that point.

And we had email collection on the pages.

Classic lean startup of just trying to understand and gauge the market demand for this thing before you go invest time to build it.

Because that was a startup weekend project initially?

Yeah, That's where I met Wade at actually.

I'd known Brian for about a year before we started Zapier.

I was actually going to pitch a different idea at that start of weekend.

Like, I mean, not even worth talking about at this point.

As soon as I heard Brian pitch the idea for what was called API Mixer at the time, My eyes lit up and I was like, that's what I'm working on this weekend.

So during that weekend we prototyped out actually what Zapier is, the core mechanics of mapping data between apps all came out of that weekend.

And I think We built PayPal and HiRise and Twitter, I think were the first 3 apps.

Paul Matz It was more, we sat down and said, what would be a cool use case that we could demonstrate this prototype with?

So during the final demo, during Startup Weekend, the mechanics of the weekend is you work for a weekend and then you present to the rest of the crew on Sunday night.

And during the demo we said, wouldn't it be fun if we could get up on stage and have people actually tweet something live and then have people pay us something on PayPal?

And then you could actually see the prototype of Zapier run and pull that data into Highrise.

The idea was like, oh, we could aggregate, if someone pays you on PayPal and they're tweeting at you, you'd like to know that in your CRM so that you could pay special attention when you're contacting them.

kind of came out of a single use case and we worked backwards from that.

Paul Matzkoff And so at what point do you end up doing YC?

We got the email rejection the first time.

We applied basically with the prototype from Startup Weekend.

So we had no customers, no traction, basically just 3 dudes from Missouri.

But it definitely lit a fire under us, I think,

Did something change while filling out the application?

It was helpful to think through what we didn't have yet.

I think for that first time It made us realize some of the things around traction that we were like there was a big Delta and Still like optimistic with a prototype But yeah, once we got the email objection, we at that point, we had enough hints of success.

We were like, we're going to keep working on this.

And it gave us actually more motivation to keep burning 40 hours and nights and weekends a week for the next few months.

And then the second time we applied, you know, by that point, we had had hundreds of conversations and chat logs and messages from actually a lot of folks in the YC network were even using the product.

We had our first 10 people pay us $100 to validate it.

And we turned down the price to like I think 5 bucks.

And we had a few hundred people who'd paid us an amount of money.

So just a lot more social proof and validation that like, hey, this is a problem that a lot of people care about and could be useful.

And so at that point, had you guys committed to being a fully remote company when you went through YC?

Zapier had been, I mentioned we'd been doing nights and weekends for that 4 or 5 months in early 2012.

I was still a full-time student, actually a grad student.

I I get the 1 the 1 star of dropping out to to start Zapier.

But yeah, after like our full-time jobs were over, you know, 05:00 we would go either back to our own apartments and work separately, or we had 1 of our bosses let us run, like use 1 of his offices to co-work out of in the evenings.

And we'd go put in, you know, work until midnight, 1 a.m.

Every night, working on Zapier, basically.

So it's kind of 2 full-time jobs for the first few months.

Yeah, and so demo day happens, and then what do you do?

Yeah, so obviously YC, 1 of the things is moving out to California, so that was really, I think 1 of the big values of YC for us was the forcing function to go commit all in, right?

Or is it like, you thought this is an interesting hobby?

Yeah, I think thinking back to that time, it was, think about our ambitions.

It was like, hey, we wanted to get this to a point where we could support ourselves, be our own bosses, control our own schedule.

hadn't got to the point where we could supplant like our full-time income.

So it was kind of out of necessity that we were running the company, building it that way.

By the point we got to YC, you know, you get a little bit of initial capital.

We got an apartment in Sunnyvale and that kind of allowed us to focus all full time on it after demo day.

I remember 1 of the problems early problems we ran into that summer was all 3 of us would wake up in the morning and we were all doing customer support We had a shared gmail inbox like or not even that an email would get copied into all 3 of our inboxes in order to do Support we would have to sit next to each other so we wouldn't answer the same email

And we would be spending you know until mid noon each morning just like answering support tickets and trying to help people get set up with the product.

And that was chewing up a lot of development and forward progress time.

So the very first hire we looked at was someone to help us out with support.

Our networks were from kind of like our college networks and from past jobs.

And when we started looking at the folks we thought might be a good fit for that, the 1 person who came to mind was 1 of Wade's, I think, college roommates.

And he lived in Chicago at the time and we knew we couldn't convince him to move to the Bay Area like we but we didn't want to and we thought back to like hey we were kind of doing Zapier remotely before start weekend or before YC like what's we could give that a try And this coincided with the exact time after YC where I was my wife girlfriend at the time was finishing law school back in Missouri So I was flying back and forth every 2 weeks back to back to Missouri and then back out to California to work Brian Wade So kind of this perfect storm of like situation where it was like, well, we have some confidence that we can do this remotely because we had been doing it before.

And the people we want to hire want to be remote and I had to be remote for part part of the time.

So it's very much an experiment in the early days just to think like, hey, this was working, let's see if it can continue to work.

And did you have any kind of plan or structure where you just said, well, let's just see what happens and

Matthew Feeney It was more an inspiration than plan, I'd say.

You look at folks like Basecamp at the time, Wufoo at the time, We had seen at least small organizations that had been successful at building fully distributed remote workforces.

So I think there was more inspiration than anything.

A lot of times, for a lot of people, they feel like the company isn't real until there's an office.

And so I think that's the kind of thing that's amazing about remote teams that actually get really big.

Somehow they don't have something that's tied to the thing, the thing I need to show off.

They're comfortable with saying, I got no place to show you.

Did you guys even struggle at all about that?

How are we going to be a real serious company without this?

It didn't hurt any efforts in terms of scaling the organization.

It's certainly, even, it's funny how much, how pervasive that like idea is, because even, I remember probably last year or the year before, we'd still have people joining the organization who'd comment Like, yeah, do my parents want to know if I'm working at a real company right now?

And it's like, well, yeah, we have like 50 million in ARR.

But yeah, it's still 1 of the reasons why some of the PR things that we do are actually useful, because we can send those to friends and family and say, hey look, this isn't just a side show.

Rimas- But how did you not get caught into that trap?

That's the thing, it has to come from the founders, obviously.

why is it that you never felt like you needed to have an office?

No, it's just like peer pressure around startup norms.

Because that's often what I see a lot of people do, is that I'm spending this money because I think this is what it looks like to normalize me.

Because this is actually very, especially at that time, it was very radical to be like, I'm not going to have an office.

I mean, when we were talking to investors and whatnot through YC, lots of raised eyebrows, we'd get folks turning us away strictly because of that.

Even some of the folks who we went forward with still would be like, Hey, when are you gonna, you know, mature as an organization and get an office and start hiring locally right now, do you see a very different opinion in VCs?

So which is fun to see that mindset shift.

I mean in there in like those early couple of first years between you know 2012 2014?

It was largely driven out of I guess kind of like the scrappy nature of the organization like it was out of necessity because we weren't profitable yet.

We'd only raised a small amount of money to like help give us a backstop to be able to scale a little bit faster than we otherwise would have and the networks of folks who wanted to hire were remote.

It was probably around 8 or 9 people into the organization when it stopped being an experiment.

I do remember specifically having that conversation with Brian Wade around like, hey, this is working.

And it was probably I think right after our first company retreat where we went up to Washington and had like 7 of us, where it felt like, yeah, this isn't just like an experiment and an easy way to get better recruiting.

This is actually a better way to run the company.

For us, definitely it started off with cost.

We were like, oh, we can't afford an office.

But later on, as things were working, we were just like, if you have this frugal mentality, we're like, there's nothing about the office and wanting to have a commute that made any extra sense.

And we also had relocated from California to Florida.

So it wasn't like, oh yeah, Our office in Florida was going to be the driving thing for anyone.

And so for us, it really just was like, I think profitability was the biggest thing for us.

We were making money, and so if someone had some criticism against, why are you doing it this way?

I was like, I'm making tons of money, so I don't really care what you have to say about this.

Paul Krugman Does Wufoo still have the best exit to investment ratio?

terms of like, how much percentage of the company that YC owned, or any of my angel investors, to the output?

And I think we're still in top 10 biggest exits for YC still.

Because of how much equity that was owned.

YC was $18,000 then, and we raised money from 2 angels, PB and PG.

I was just thinking, I think logistics and practicality was 1 reason why remote was like, we believed in it so much.

The other reason I think is actually a little bit more tied to like Brian and Wade and how we like to work.

In the early days, I think it goes back to that nights and weekends.

Part of the reason inhibition of wanting to start zapper in the first place was we kind of wanted to own our own schedule and like set our own Goals and not be beholden to like a giant organization telling us what to do We wanted to be very autonomous and 1 of like that That's a that is a company value our number 1 values default action and that permeates all the way from the very beginning where we wanted to like we wanted to build Zapier as a company that we would want to work out.

And if I'm going to go work at it like a big company, I would want that like level of autonomy and no 1 telling me that I have to be in the office at 8 30 in the morning every day and like control my own schedule and be able to like just go know go identify good things to work on and do them.

So as someone now who's hiring these people, do you have to filter out people who think that they want that autonomy, who think that they might want to be working alone from people who actually do?

people are really gonna- Is your company full of libertarians who care about freedom or is it a company full of introverts?

I imagine it's not 1 or the other, but it's 1 of these things where it's like-

I do think we probably attract folks that enjoy working alone more.

Not exclusively, we do have quite a few folks who are extroverted in the organization who've been successful and found ways to make it work.

1 of the things I tell everyone who's going through the interview process is, your work can't be your family at Zapier or any distributed remote company.

See all Y Combinator transcripts on Youtube

Mike Knoop on Product and Design Processes for Remote Teams with Kevin Hale