Sophie Spital is Triggernometry's video editor and the first employee to have joined the Trig team all the way back in 2020. When she's not behind a computer screen making us look good, she speaks and writes about issues including gender dysphoria, autism and ideology - topics with which she's had more than her fair share of first hand experience!
Sophie's Twitter: https://twitter.com/SophieSpital
Sophie's Substack: https://sophiespital.substack.com/

#transition #autism #interview 

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Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians.

00:00 Intro 
01:07 Sophie Spital’s Background
04:51 The Liberal Feminist Mindset
09:29 How Autism Impacts Worldview 
11:48 Gender Identification 
17:27 Experiencing Gender Dysphoria
21:42 Social Media’s Influence on Gender Ideology
25:56 Sponsor Message: BetterHelp
27:47 The Connection Between Autism & Gender Dysphoria
40:38 Why Aren’t We Recognising Autism?
46:04 'Identifying With' Vs 'Identifying As'
34:13 Sponsor Message: Manscaped
55:37 The Implications of the New Trans Worldview
58:04 Do These New Trans Policies Say Something Deeper About Society?
59:21 The Invention of the Concept of Gender
1:03:23 What Other Positive Changes Do we Need to Make?
1:09:15 The Demonisation of Masculinity
1:12:11 Coming to Peace with Who You Are
1:15:32 What’s the One Thing We’re Not Talking About?

If I were born 10 years later, you know, but for the grace of God, there's no doubt in my mind that I would have transitioned.

I got really involved in, like, feminism about, like, 10-odd years ago.

I think what sucked me into it in the first place was this kind of revelation of like everything is socially constructed And it became quite clear to me that it's just like no that's not the case The fact that I was autistic getting diagnosed was what helped me.

I think it's something like 40% of girls who transition are autistic.

Letting children do whatever they want is not kind.

No, and it might make you feel like you're doing the kind thing, and the whole of society can tell you it's kind.

But what we're doing now is like the least kind thing that could ever be done to children.

And this is a show for you if you want honest conversations with fascinating people.

Our fantastic guest today is somebody you have not seen on the podcast circuit.

She is, in fact, the first person that we ever hired to work with us here at Trigonometry.

She edits most of the videos that you guys see, and she has a very interesting story to tell about some of the things that we talk about regularly on the show.

It's great to actually have this conversation.

You've been building up to it for a long time.

We'll get into the stuff that you want to talk about and we want to ask you about.

Before we do though, what has been the journey that's taken you to be sitting here?

Because you were the first person we hired, as I said.

You emailed us saying, hey, are you looking for anybody?

But what's been your journey through life?

Yeah, well, I come from Chelmsford in Essex.

So I was born, I moved to Brighton, which is for anyone who doesn't know, it's like the Portland, Oregon of the UK.

I got really involved in like, feminism about like 10 odd years ago.

Because I was trying to do the right thing.

At the time, it was that kind of liberal feminism of that sort of intersectional, it's totally different from the feminists in that.

But yeah, so I was really involved with that.

And I would have considered myself at that point, woke.

Like I actually, like I've found diary stuff from that time and I actually did call myself woke.

It's like not a pejorative, just actually, you know, and I was proud of it and I was very like into that progressive stuff and then, Well, long story short on that 1, I got very disillusioned with it when I saw that it didn't actually marry up with reality and there was some good seeds of truth in there, but I moved away from that.

But I was really, really passionate about the truth and doing the right thing and doing what's good and right in the world.

And that's kind of why I never really kind of make fun of or, you know, I don't think people are stupid on the other side, because I'm like, I know a lot of them are really well meaning and a lot of them, they just, they want to be, they want to do the moral right thing in their lives.

And that was what was given me at the time.

Anyway, so I, then I got really into listening to Douglas Murray, he was the gateway drug to basically leaving behind a lot of the leftism that I had at the time.

I was really passionate about getting to the truth and I just saw these people, a lot of people who have been on the show, speaking this truth that I realised just wasn't marrying up with what people said about what these people are.

Like, these people are evil, racist bigots.

And I was like, well, if I actually listen to what they say, that's not the case.

And So I kind of flipped from being on the far left to being, well, not on the far right.

I go to extremes and I've been finding my place on that stuff.

Anyway, so I started listening to a lot of this stuff and then I found trigonometry during the lockdown, actually, the first lockdown.

And I was just like, someone said, my friend Ruth was like, oh, just check this out.

And I looked through the feed and I was like, oh my gosh, it's like all the people I love and listen to.

And so I got hooked on that and then I messaged you guys being like, you know, hey, is there anything I can do to help?

And unbeknownst to me at that time, young sweet Anton, who's the producer, was completely inundated with stuff.

And so I stepped in and pretty much took over from there.

And look, actually the thing that we want to talk to you about isn't wokeness necessarily.

But I was curious that you said that you were, obviously we've talked about this before, she's spilling water on herself.

You were talking about the fact that you were in this kind of liberal feminist mindset.

And then you mentioned that it didn't marry up to reality, which is what sort of shook you out of that to some extent.

What was it that made you think that it didn't marry up to reality?

Like what were some of the clashes between reality and ideology that you experienced?

There was a lot of stuff like, I think what sucked me into it in the first place was this kind of revelation of like everything is socially constructed.

So for example, you look at things, people come to you and they say, Well, why do we have blue as the boy color and pink for the girl color?

And you go, oh, yeah, they're just arbitrary colors.

And then a lot of stuff was you see stuff and I still see online about like children's clothes and it's like all the boys' clothes are like building and fighting and you know triumphing and all the girls' clothes are like be kind, you know, be sweet, lovely.

And at the time the narrative was everything is socially constructed So there's no difference between men and women at all.

It's literally just how we socialise them in society.

And I've really bought into that, even to the extent where I didn't believe that there was such thing as someone being subjectively beautiful.

Like I remember arguing with someone being like, are you only think she's beautiful because you've been socialised that way and all this kind of stuff.

So I was like online, in line with the thinking, you're even like the kind of thinking you see now, which is like, no disrespect, but people being like obese with a shaved head and like those piercings, but saying like, I'm a 10 and I'm just as attractive as this person you just don't understand it because you've been you know anyway but the crack So sorry to interrupt you

know what that makes your point so well about you know the people on the other side if there is such a thing, are not stupid because you're an incredibly smart person.

And you're very intelligent, but for you to believe something that factually incorrect is quite incredible, right?

Because our standards of beauty are based on biology and hip ratio and all of that.

So it's so interesting that you could have been persuaded to think that

Well, the thing is, I'm a bit of an all or nothing person.

And so when I saw the seed of this, I jumped into it and I started seeing everything through that lens.

And actually, quite quickly, because I went into it full throttle, like I saw the faults in it very quickly as well.

Because it's a blessing and a curse, because it means that I can throw myself into something and I can be in it, fully in it and then see the problems very quickly as well.

But yes, so I started to see how this just doesn't marry up with reality and I started to understand, well actually, you know, there are reasons.

I started learning a little bit more about the differences, like, between men and women, like, neurologically, and, you know, in terms of our bodies and everything.

And it became quite clear to me that it's just like, no, that's not the case.

And again, even with the thing about, as I said, school, sorry, not school, clothing in shops, the message that you get at the time was, boys and girls are blank slates and we've socialized girls to be into flowers and pretty things and the boys into this.

But the reality is, is that the market is following the response.

The market isn't interested in like churning out like strong boys and weak girls or whatever.

The market is just following what people like.

And yes, there is probably an element, well, there's definitely an element of girls get socialized into it because that's the majority thing.

But it's also the reason that if they started putting loads of, if they put them boys clothes stuff on a lot of the girls clothes stuff, you know, when they're old enough to choose their own, they're not going to choose it.

They are, the girls are more likely to choose the kind of princess dress over the spiderman outfit like, you know, most girls.

So yeah, I just realised it's more complicated than that, than what I'd initially thought.

Sophie, you've always been a fascinating person to me.

And 1 of the things that I really enjoy talking with you about with you is autism, being neurologically atypical.

When did you realize that you were autistic and you saw the world in a different way?

Well, actually, I always kind of knew it because I had sensed it in many ways.

Actually, funnily enough, a lot of the things I've discovered about autism, I had no idea were connected to autism at the time when I got diagnosed.

It's not actually that uncommon to get diagnosed that late in life.

For most girls, actually, That's changed now because people are thinking about it a lot more.

But most women who are diagnosed were diagnosed in adulthood because they manifest differently in terms of the boys tend to act out and have meltdowns and are very explosive in school, and the girls are just like, I like rules and just like working and like high achievers.

And so I was like that, I was like that all the way through school.

It's like achievement, you know, and I did my school, my, you know, college, uni, and then, But the problems didn't really arise until after uni because everything up until that point was very structured.

And then you finish uni and it's like I literally have the entire world of choices and I don't know what to do.

And like the paralysis of that and other problems that I had with not being able to respond to change, executive functioning skills, so life management skills, just got me to a place of complete breakdown really.

I literally just not being able to function in the world.

I was very ashamed of that because at the time I didn't know it was autism.

I'm really high achieving and get high grades and good degree and everything, but I can't do the washing up.

A lot of that is due to sensory issues as well.

But yeah, so there was a lot of shame that I had attached to that and for other reasons, which we'll go into.

But yeah, the warning signs were always there.

But it is the black and white thinking and the kind of really extreme thinking, you know, which leads you to sometimes call me an extremist.

But also as well, I mean, you tell that story from your PE lesson and obviously tell it because you're gonna tell it a lot better than me when it comes to identification and gender ID.

So, yeah, So another part of my experience.

Because I think the issue that we've talked a lot about on the show, as you well know, is how I do.

I mean, and this is why I asked you about wokeness because it just shows you how ideology is so powerful.

That it can convince you, even a very smart person like you and like me and like everyone really, of things that are just patently not true, but ideology is a very powerful thing.

And 1 of the things we've talked a lot about on the show is the rise in transgenderism and young children in particular identifying out of their gender and so on.

How that marries up to a lot of the other stuff, particularly in relation to autism.

I mean, there's a clear link between people who are autistic and people who are transitioning.

And a lot of people essentially are making the argument that the overwhelming majority of the increase in recent years is basically autistic and gay children.

Sort of looking for an answer to why they're different.

And the reason we wanted to have you on is that that is actually to some extent your experience.

So tell us that now that we've set that up.

It's weird that I'm about to tell my story to however many people.

Yeah, I always experienced thinking that I was a boy from a young age.

And it's hard to explain what that means, because it's like, what does that mean?

And it wasn't that I wanted to be a boy, or like I was telling people, I'm a boy, I'm actually a boy.

I actually genuinely thought I was, and I didn't realize that I was a girl until something would come along and remind me.

So I think what you're referring to maybe, Frances, was, yeah, I think when I was in assembly in primary school, so I don't know how old I was, maybe like 5 or something.

The teacher asked the boys specifically a question, and I started answering.

I just remember the boys next to me being like, why are you answering?

I default into thinking that I was male and that other people saw me as male.

That carried on all the way through my life really pretty much until, well, until some stuff happened later that, you know, has alleviated that.

But, but yeah, like I had that all the time like and even when I was like 25, like my friends, I had my hair cut and my friends were like, oh, you know, you should get some lipstick.

Because at the time, I don't think I'd really worn makeup apart from when I've been forced to for a special occasion.

But I didn't like, you know, girls stuff at all.

I was just always with the boys, and I was just a massive tomboy, and I didn't like that stuff.

Anyway, My friends were like, oh, let's get you some lipstick, and they sort of marched me down to boots.

It's like a little sort of coloring in book at the start of the day, every day, which is fun for me.

But we went there, they put the lipstick on me, and I just genuinely felt like, just really ashamed because I just felt, well, I felt like a clown, first of all, and then when I walked home wearing the makeup, I was just like expecting everyone to look at me like, you know, like, you know, because I thought that they were seeing a man.

The way people might look at a man wearing obvious makeup.

And I thought that they would see a man walking down the street in drag.

But then I had to remind myself, oh no, you're a woman.

And so they're seeing a woman wearing lipstick, which is normal for them.

And so like, and that was the same when I was 25 before I was diagnosed.

So that was kind of my story all the way through life.

And it wasn't the done thing back in those days to, especially not for girls, to do anything about it because you don't, You just say, I'm a tomboy and I'm comfortable with these things and I just carry on.

Also, there's no, like the reason why up until very recently with the whole explosion of girls identifying as trans, it was pretty much all boys.

And I think the reason for that, 1 of the reasons for that is that there's no socially safe way for a boy to sort of gender bend as it were.

Like for me, I just wore shorts and t-shirts and whatever.

So I could wear boys' clothes but it didn't look like I was cross-dressing.

Whereas if you're a little boy and you hate being a boy and you want to be a girl, you know, you'll start wearing dresses and then, you know, you're going to very quickly, it's going to be evidence to everyone around you that there's some incongruity going on there.

And Sophie, did you feel, apart from this 1 instance with the makeup, did this cause you particular distress?

Did you feel a sense of discomfort or disgust for your own body, which is what some people talk about?

Well, actually, interestingly, I feel like the pressure almost, like, in terms of fitting with the narrative is to say, yeah, I really had a problem with my body.

I had, because when you don't have a choice to opt out of your gender, as so many teenagers are given the choice now, you just get on with it.

Realistically speaking, there's not too many moments in one's life where your sex actually comes into play.

So you learn to use the bathroom with this symbol on it, the lady symbol.

And when people referred to me as woman, it was just a little reminder, oh yeah.

I mean, there was a bit of a, there was, it did hurt not being able to join in with the boys.

And like, so I explain, when I talk about gender dysphoria now, which is what it is, you know, it's the, it's defined as the persistent discomfort and distress associated with your sex.

When I experienced that, I talk about it in terms of 2 separate categories.

There's the actual thinking I was a boy, and then there's the wanting to be.

So, the wanting to be wasn't there when I was young, but when I got older, and I would have a reminder that I'm a woman, I would then have feelings of, my life would be so much better if I were a man and everything would be, I don't know, like, I just got really annoyed with the seemingly arbitrary things that were foisted on me as a girl that seemed to be valuable to other people, like in terms of looking after your appearance or whatever.

No, but seriously, it's just like, I mean, like I didn't wash my hair, do my hair, and I've talked about it before, and I think my mum feels quite bad about it, but she basically said to me when I was like 13 or something that you need to start washing your hair, and if you don't wash your hair, I will cut the whole lot off.

And Because it genuinely got to the stage of being like matted and horrible.

And I was just so not bothered about that stuff.

saw it as such a waste of time and such a stupid imposition that I just couldn't care less.

And she feels bad about that because she thinks people will think that, you know, that she's an evil mother.

But I think it was the right thing to do, to be honest, because it did make me back up my ideas a little bit.

But but yeah, so there were sorry, there were like those those feelings.

But I think 1 of the interesting things is I see a lot of people who are going through gender dysphoria online talking about their hatred for their bodies.

But I was different in that I never thought about my body.

I don't think I realized I had a body until I was 23 or something, which is obviously that's a little bit exaggerated because of course you know you have a body.

But what I mean is I never thought about it.

I probably thought about my body as about as much as you think about your capillaries.

Like, I know they're there or maybe like choose something that you can actually physically see, like, I don't know, the crook of your elbow or something.

It's like, I know it's there, I can see it, but I never think about it.

And I didn't think about, yeah, so I actually, you know, contrary to, yeah, what a lot of people kind of experience with their sort of hatred of the body, I was just completely disassociated from it.

And I actually, so I had the blessing of never being in any way dissatisfied with my body because I just never thought about it.

So I was just like, it's working, it's functioning, it's fine.

Do you think that's part of the problem now is because of social media and gender ideology that kids are now being encouraged, and in fact could be argued, manipulated into an obsession with their own bodies.

I mean, like, I'm showing my age, but we didn't really have social media when I was growing up, back in the day.

Yeah, so we didn't really have social media.

So it was, there wasn't that fixation on, I mean, girls around me were always kind of, you know, especially in school, the girls were like, you know, doing their hair and makeup and stuff.

But I mean, I actually, yeah, I think I developed quite a lot of sexism really against women because of that, because I didn't understand the value of it.

Do you think they were vain or something?

Like I had a, when I was working through, so obviously we will come to like how, Because, you know, basically there was an alleviation of my gender dysphoria due to...

But yeah, I realised that because of the autism and my black and white way of thinking, There just wasn't any space for nuance.

I mean, I try really hard to do it now because I care so much about the truth and the truth is nuanced.

So I have to actively go against the type to really, really work on that because it's important to me.

But I basically just looked at the girls, were like, why would you rather play with a Barbie than an action man?

An action man abseils and shoots missiles and does cool stuff, rock climbing and what have you.

The Barbie is literally just standing there with a mirror.

It blew my mind that other girls would choose this.

And you know, like now, as I say, with a bit of nuance, I understand that, you know, dolls and things like that are very good, like social tools for learning many things.

And there's nothing wrong with choosing a Barbie.

But at the time I just had so much disdain for girls and that made me disassociate even further to the point where I didn't even consider myself 1 of them.

And so I had, when I was working through trying to get over my gender dysphoria, I met with 1 of the pastors of my church, Stephen and he, you know, I was talking about it and I was like, ah, like, why?

Women are so boring and just airheaded and all they care about is their appearance and you know like and I'm really like passionate about like philosophy and history and all these important intellectual things and you know and they're just not on my level." And he was like, yo, you're being really sexist.

That just really hit me, because I was just like, yeah, I am.

What I'd done is I'd conflated all of the worst things I'd seen about this picture of femininity I built up in my mind, to almost make an enemy.

So if you've got an enemy, you can run away from it or fight it or whatever.

And then I just realized that, I mean, obviously that was sexist.

And I'm being a bit over the top about it.

But Yeah, I had to work through that because I realised that there's just so many, that's so not true.

And like some of the things that I had a problem with are just women just being women in the same way that a lot of people have problems with the things that are masculine.

And they're just, you know, it's just men being men a lot of the time.

And it's like, it's not, it's just that I was an outlier on the bell curve, that I resented that.

This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp.

Konstantin, what's the best thing about having this episode sponsored by BetterHelp?

In my country, mental health is something that you have before you start drinking.

Thankfully, we start drinking at breakfast, so we have no problem.

Yes, our slogan is drink breakfast vodka and become real men.

but if you do wanna feel better inside and out, then maybe you should try BetterHelp.

I have been doing therapy for over a year and it has really helped me understand myself better and become far more effective in both my work and my personal life.

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