Tulsi Gabbard's background and political stances on war and military industrial complex.

Introduction to Tulsi Gabbard

Tulsi Gabbard's firsthand experience in Iraq and the real cost of war.

Lessons from War Experience

Insights into the cost of war, war profiteering, and the impact on soldiers and taxpayers.

War Profiteering and Cost of War

Discussion on the influence and power of the military-industrial complex in government and defense contracting.

Power of the Military-Industrial Complex

Tulsi Gabbard's philosophy on when war is justified and the messy details of the war on terrorism.

Justification of War

Strategies for understanding and combating terrorism, based on Tulsi Gabbard's experiences in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Somalia.

Defeating Terrorism

Complexities of the Israel-Gaza conflict and the challenges of achieving peace between the two sides.

War and Peace in Israel-Gaza Conflict

The necessity of a brokered dialogue for peace in Ukraine and the role of the US president in facilitating negotiations.

Resolution of the War in Ukraine

Discussion on the role of diplomacy and engagement in international relations, with examples from history.

Diplomacy and Engagement

The importance of meeting with adversaries in pursuit of peace and increased understanding.

Meeting with Adversaries

Challenges faced in questioning the objectives of the military-industrial complex and warmongers.

Challenging the Establishment

Discussion on the dangers of nuclear war, the role of leadership, and the need for independent thinking in critical situations.

Nuclear War and Leadership

Discussion on the challenges of advocating for thoughtful decision-making and the fear of retaliation for speaking up against warmongering establishment in Washington.

Challenging Warmongering Establishment in Washington

Exploring the difficulty of questioning military involvement and the pressure to self-censor within the institution, requiring courage to ask critical questions.

Courage to Question Military Involvement

Examining the power and influence of the military-industrial complex and its impact on decision-making and the suppression of critical questions.

Influence of Military-Industrial Complex

Discussion on the legislation threatening freedom of speech, empowering the executive to control social media platforms and its implications on privacy and censorship.

Threat to Freedom of Speech

Explanation of the resignation from the Democratic National Committee and endorsement of Bernie Sanders due to bias and unfair treatment in the 2016 Democratic primary.

Democratic National Committee Resignation

Reasons for leaving the Democratic Party, citing opposition to freedom, elitist warmongering, and the rejection of objective truth within the party.

Leaving the Democratic Party

Acknowledgment of power-hungry politicians in both political parties, highlighting the need for voters to select leaders who prioritize freedom and accountability.

Challenges in Political Parties

Discussion on the pros and cons of Joe Biden and the division caused by his leadership, contrasted with the unifying message of Barack Obama during his 2008 campaign.

Evaluating Biden and Trump

Reflection on personal experiences with Joe Biden and disappointment in his leadership as president, particularly in his failure to unite the country as promised.

Disappointment in President Biden

Personal accounts of individuals who felt hopeful during Obama's campaign but were left heartbroken by the lack of change and the perpetuation of the status quo in Washington.

Unfulfilled Hope and Change

Discussion on the challenges presidents face in translating their campaign promises and ideals into action, particularly related to foreign policy and civil liberties.

Challenges of Presidential Ideals

Importance of courage and resistance to corruption in political leadership, as well as the challenges faced in maintaining integrity and purpose amidst personal attacks.

Courage and Leadership

The central role of faith in providing strength, inspiration, and guidance in the face of challenges, and the inclusive and non-sectarian nature of Hinduism.

Role of Faith in Leadership

Reflection on the personal relationship with God, the universal principles of love and service in religion, and the significance of a loving relationship with God.

Personal Relationship with God

# The Lex Friedman Podcast: A Conversation with Tulsi Gabbard

In this episode of The Lex Friedman Podcast, Tulsi Gabbard, a former long-time Democrat and vice chair of the Democratic National Committee, shares her insights on war, the military industrial complex, and the ongoing conflicts in Ukraine and Israel. Here are some key takeaways from her conversation with Lex Friedman:

## **Lessons from War**

Tulsi Gabbard served in the US military, achieving the rank of Lieutenant Colonel, and was deployed in Iraq and Kuwait. She emphasizes the high human cost of war on both the troops and the people in the countries where war is waged. She also sheds light on the exorbitant costs incurred by defense contracting companies like KBR Halliburton, highlighting the disparity in wages between the workers and the profits made by these companies.

## **The Power of the Military-Industrial Complex**

Gabbard discusses the powerful nature of the military-industrial complex, emphasizing the deep-rooted connections within the government and the revolving door between the Pentagon, defense contractors, and Congress. She points out the influence of lobbyists and the cozy relationship between political leaders and the defense industry.

## **Justifying War and Defeating Terrorism**

Gabbard believes that war is justified when it is in the best interest of national security and is the last resort after exhausting diplomatic efforts. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the enemy and building relationships with leaders and religious figures in other countries to combat terrorism.

## **The Ongoing Conflicts in Israel and Ukraine**

Gabbard shares her perspective on the Israel-Gaza conflict, highlighting the complexities and the need for strong leadership to work towards peace. She also expresses her hope for a brokered dialogue between Russia and Ukraine to end the war, emphasizing the importance of finding an agreement that requires concessions from both sides.

## **The Role of the US President**

While Gabbard believes that the US president should ideally play a role in bringing conflicting parties to the table, she raises concerns about the current administration's stance and suggests that the most effective neutral broker should take the lead in facilitating peace talks.

## **The Threat of Nuclear War**

Gabbard and Lex Friedman discuss the terrifying potential of nuclear war and the lack of preparedness and awareness surrounding the devastating consequences. They emphasize the need for leaders to think independently and critically in the face of such a catastrophic event.

## **The TikTok Ban Bill**

Gabbard delves into the details of a controversial piece of legislation that is being expedited through Congress. She highlights the significant concerns surrounding freedom of speech, foreign adversary designations, and the potential surveillance and censorship implications of the bill. The legislation, under the guise of national security, raises serious civil liberties concerns and presents a threat to individual freedoms and privacy.

## **Faith and Personal Philosophy**

Tulsi Gabbard shares the central role of her Hindu faith in her life, emphasizing the monotheistic nature of Hinduism and its acceptance of other religions. She discusses the teachings of the Bhagavad Gita and the timeless truths that are applicable to people of all faiths.

Tulsi Gabbard's insights provide a thought-provoking perspective on the complexities of war, the influence of the military-industrial complex, and the challenges in achieving peace in ongoing conflicts. To listen to the full conversation, visit The Lex Friedman Podcast.

Stay tuned for more thought-provoking discussions and insights on The Lex Friedman Podcast.

"Unveiling the Truth: Tulsi Gabbard's Insights on War, the Military-Industrial Complex, and Global Conflicts"

Checking the casualties list for injuries

Tracking injured soldiers and ensuring they received care

The success in countering violent extremism

The importance of labeling Islamist terrorists

Serving on the Foreign Affairs Committee and the Armed Services Committee

The hour that she announced her candidacy for president

The publication of a podcast with David Axelrod

The lack of room for debate within the party

The influence of the military-industrial complex

The escalation of warmongering in the party

A nuclear war cannot be won and should never be waged

Tactical nuclear weapons are the key to winning a nuclear war

Nuclear war is just another war that can be won with strategic weapons

To ensure voters have the best opportunity to vote for their chosen candidate

To eliminate candidates with controversial policies

To prevent new candidates from entering the race

Making decisions in favor of Hillary Clinton

Dedication to be pleasing to God and serve God's children

- The conversation is with Tulsi Gabbard, a former Democrat who endorsed Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden
- She served in the US military and achieved the rank of Lieutenant Colonel
- She discusses the high human cost of war, both on troops and on the people in the country where the war is being waged
- Gabbard also talks about the financial cost of war, particularly the excessive profits made by defense contracting companies
- She shares personal experiences from her deployment in Iraq, including the emotional toll on soldiers who were injured and had to be evacuated

- In a war zone, soldiers focus on their comrades and the mission, not politics
- Soldiers from Hawaii, American Samoa, Guam, and Saipan built relationships with local Iraqis
- These relationships led to a decrease in casualties and the discovery of weapons caches
- The military-industrial complex is powerful and extends deeply within the government
- War is justified when it is in the best interest of national security and a last resort
- The war on terrorism has led to conflicts and violations of civil liberties
- The focus on regime change in Iraq diverted attention from the initial mission in Afghanistan
- Understanding the enemy is essential for building a strategy to defeat terrorism

- Understanding the enemy is crucial in building a strategy
- Islamist terrorist groups continue to pose a threat despite declarations of the war on terror being over
- The ideological and military components of fighting terrorism are both important
- Building relationships with leaders and religious figures in other countries is crucial in combating terrorism
- The Israel-Gaza conflict and the war in Ukraine require a brokered dialogue for peace
- The role of the US president in bringing parties to the table is important, but the current administration's stance may hinder this process

- The speaker believes that the Biden-Harris administration should encourage diplomacy with leaders like Zelensky and Putin
- They emphasize the importance of human connection and communication in resolving conflicts
- The speaker criticizes the lack of willingness to engage with adversaries and the politicization of diplomatic efforts
- They argue for the need to understand different perspectives and the potential consequences of regime change
- The importance of friendly competition and collaboration between nations is highlighted

- The speaker discusses the friendly competition between the Soviet Union and the United States in the space race, and how it led to scientific breakthroughs and dreams of reaching the stars.
- They address the criticism of being accused of loving Putin, attributing it to their opposition to the military-industrial complex and warmongers in Washington.
- The speaker highlights the lack of debate and room for dissent within the Democratic Party on foreign policy, particularly in relation to the war in Ukraine.
- They express hope for the power of free people in a free society to stand up against the military industrial complex and its influence.

- The piece discusses the terrifying ease of starting a nuclear war and the inability to stop it once it begins
- It criticizes the normalization of nuclear war and the lack of understanding of its catastrophic consequences
- It highlights the lack of preparedness and carelessness of government officials towards nuclear war
- It emphasizes the importance of having a leader who can think independently and make rational decisions in times of crisis

- The speaker advocates for thoughtful decision-making and questioning of military actions in Washington
- There is pressure to conform and self-censor within the military establishment
- The military-industrial complex wields significant power and influence
- The speaker criticizes a new bill as a power grab and assault on freedom of speech
- The bill gives the president and cabinet secretary power to designate foreign adversaries and ban social media platforms
- The bill could potentially target individuals like Elon Musk
- The speaker criticizes social media platforms for censoring voices at the behest of the federal government

- Tulsi Gabbard, a former Democrat, discusses the human and financial costs of war, drawing from her military experience in Iraq
- She emphasizes the need for understanding the enemy and building relationships with other countries to combat terrorism
- Gabbard criticizes the lack of diplomatic efforts and the influence of the military-industrial complex
- She advocates for independent thinking and rational decision-making in times of crisis
- Gabbard also criticizes a new bill that could give the president power to ban social media platforms and target individuals like Elon Musk

- The Democratic Party is being criticized for attempting to regulate social media platforms and restrict free speech
- The legislation is seen as an assault on liberty and a power grab by the government
- There are concerns about government overreach and censorship, as well as the potential impact on data security and privacy
- The speaker, a former vice chair of the Democratic National Committee, resigned due to concerns about bias in the 2016 primary election
- There are worries about the potential for surveillance and oppressive measures if the legislation passes

- Tulsi Gabbard resigned as vice chair of the DNC to endorse Bernie Sanders due to her belief that the mainstream media and Democratic Party were not holding Hillary Clinton accountable for her record in foreign policy.
- She left the Democratic Party because she believes it has become opposed to freedom and controlled by warmongers and elitists.
- Gabbard also acknowledges that both political parties have power-hungry politicians, but she sees increasing voices in the Republican Party challenging the norms.

- The Republican Party is seeing increasing voices challenging its norms, with Donald Trump being one of them
- The next election is about selecting leaders committed to the Constitution and the interests of the people
- Joe Biden's leadership as president has not reflected the positive characteristics that drew people to him in the past
- Obama was seen as a uniter during his 2008 campaign, but some felt let down by his actions as president
- Obama's failure to act on promises and ideals may be driven by concerns for reelection and funding
- Trump's weakness lies in not surrounding himself with courageous people and not addressing the corruption in the federal government
- The hope is that Trump learns from the mistakes of 2016 if reelected

- The speaker hopes for Trump's reelection and believes he has learned from past mistakes
- Trump's non-interventionist agenda was undermined by his advisors
- Trump's resistance to attacks and lack of desire to please Washington are seen as strengths
- The speaker's faith in God is central to her life and provides strength and guidance
- Hinduism is described as a monotheistic religion that promotes love for God and service to others
- The speaker sees God as a personal friend and confidant, turning to him for solace and strength

- The speaker turns to God for solace, clarity, and strength in times of struggle
- They emphasize the importance of developing a personal, loving relationship with God
- The conversation with Tulsi Gabbard is honored and appreciated
- The podcast sponsors are mentioned for support
- A quote from Dwight D. Eisenhower about the military-industrial complex is shared

- Democratic Party criticized for attempting to regulate social media and restrict free speech
- Concerns about government overreach, censorship, data security, and privacy
- Tulsi Gabbard resigned from DNC, criticizing bias and lack of accountability
- Gabbard believes Democratic Party has become opposed to freedom and controlled by warmongers
- Increasing voices challenging norms in both Democratic and Republican parties
- Hope for leaders committed to Constitution and people's interests in next election
- Criticisms of Joe Biden's leadership and disappointment in Obama's presidency
- Trump's weaknesses and hope for reelection and learning from past mistakes
- Speaker's faith in God and importance of personal relationship with God
- Honored conversation with Tulsi Gabbard and mention of podcast sponsors
- Quote from Dwight D. Eisenhower about the military-industrial complex shared

Tulsi Gabbard is a politician, veteran, and author of For Love of Country. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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TRANSCRIPT:
https://lexfridman.com/tulsi-gabbard-transcript

EPISODE LINKS:
For Love of Country (book): https://amzn.to/3VLlofM
Tulsi's X: https://x.com/tulsigabbard
Tulsi's YouTube: https://youtube.com/@TulsiGabbard
Tulsi's Podcast: https://youtube.com/@TheTulsiGabbardShow
Tulsi's Instagram: https://instagram.com/tulsigabbard
Tulsi's Facebook: https://facebook.com/TulsiGabbard
Tulsi's Website: https://tulsigabbard.com/

PODCAST INFO:
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Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41

OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:07 - War in Iraq
8:53 - Battle injuries and PTSD
16:03 - War on terrorism
24:44 - War in Gaza
28:45 - War in Ukraine
32:31 - Syria
40:13 - Warmongers
49:33 - Nuclear war
1:05:01 - TikTok ban
1:17:06 - Bernie Sanders
1:22:01 - Politics
1:40:52 - Personal attacks
1:43:01 - God

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It's a sad state of affairs when some of the most influential voices in our country will label someone a lover or supporter of dictators simply because you're saying, hey, we shouldn't be going to war.

The following is a conversation with Tulsi Gabbard, who was a long-time Democrat, including being the vice chair of the Democratic National Committee.

She endorsed Bernie in 2016 and Biden in 2020.

She has been both loved and heavily criticized for her independent thinking and bold political stances, especially on topics of war and the military industrial complex.

She served in the US military for many years, achieving the rank of Lieutenant Colonel.

And now she is the author of a new book called For Love of Country.

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

And now, dear friends, here's Tulsi Gabbard.

You've served in the US military for many years, achieving rank of Lieutenant Colonel.

You were deployed in Iraq in 2004 and 5, Kuwait in 2008 and 9.

What lessons about life and about country have you learned from that experience of war?

Central to those lessons learned was having my eyes open to the very real cost of war.

Of course, I served in a medical unit during that first deployment to Iraq.

It was 2005 during the height of that war.

And unfortunately, we took a lot of casualties.

We, across the entire US military, my brigade that I deployed with was from the Hawaii National Guard.

We had approximately 3,000 soldiers who were operating in 4 different areas of Iraq.

And my first task every day was to go through a list of every injury, combat-related injury that had occurred the day before in the country.

And I went through that list name by name, looking to see if any 1 of our nearly 3,000 soldiers from Hawaii had been hurt in the line of duty.

And then if seeing them on the list, tracking them down, where were they?

Were they getting the care they needed, would they be able to get sufficient care to stay in country and return to duty, did I need to get them evacuated.

Usually it would be to military hospitals that at that time were in Landstuhl and Ramstein in Germany.

And then from there, getting them to either Brooke Army Medical Center, which is here in Texas, that specialized in burn-related injuries, or to Walter Reed.

And tracking them and their care until they were finally home with their families.

It never became like, okay, cool, check the list, you know, kind of dot the I's, cross the T's.

It was that daily confrontation with the reality of the cost of war.

Experiencing firsthand that high human cost of war caused me, you know, 20-something year old from Hawaii, I had left my seat in the state legislature to volunteer to deploy with my brothers and sisters in my unit to Iraq.

And so recognize the cost of war, I think in 2 fundamental ways.

Number 1 is the high human cost of war on our troops and on the people in the country where this war was being waged, and also the cost on American taxpayers.

Seeing then back, again, 2005 and recognizing KBR Halliburton, 1 of the biggest defense contracting companies then.

And I know that they are still very much in that business now.

Dick Cheney being connected with that company at 1 point or another.

But in our camp specifically, which was 1 of the larger ones in Iraq at that time, there wasn't anything that happened in our camp that didn't have the KBR Halliburton logo imprinted on it.

We had a big shack-looking place where we ate our meals.

They call it a dining facility, a DFAC in the military.

They brought in, and they being KBR Halliburton, they imported workers in from places like Nepal and Sri Lanka and the Philippines to come in and cook food and work at this dining facility, I got curious about how much it cost us as taxpayers.

And so I started asking around some of the people, and I think at that time it was like, well, every time a soldier or a service member walks through the door, If I were to go in for breakfast and grab a banana and walk out, that's an automatic $35 per head, per meal, 4 times a day, thousands and thousands of people.

There's a pretty large Filipino community in Hawaii, a lot of Filipino soldiers from Hawaii.

We made friends with the Filipino workers who were there.

They would often go in the back of the tents and set up their own rice cookers and cook their own meals, which is where the real good food was.

But just started talking to them and getting to know them and asked like, hey, how much do you get paid?

And on average, it was like, oh, I get paid like 500 bucks a month, 500 bucks a month to go and do this work of either cleaning out porta potties, picking up trash, the dining facility, doing laundry, all of these different tasks, because the military wanted soldiers to be out doing things that only soldiers could do.

But when I started putting, you know, 2 and 2 together and knowing that this company, 1 company alone, was making trillions of dollars, trillions of dollars, and yet this Filipino mom is making 500 bucks a month, maybe getting 1 day off a week, maybe working 12 hours a day otherwise.

I said, how often are you able to go home to your family?

Well, they'll let us go home a couple of weeks every other year.

It was an eye-opening experience that growing up in Hawaii, I frankly hadn't given much thought to before.

But it's what led me ultimately coming back from that first deployment.

There was no way that I could go back to the life that I had left behind.

And I knew somehow, someway, I needed to find a way to use those experiences to try to make a positive impact, to try to influence those, I mean, frankly, the politicians who are making decisions to go and launch these regime change wars and send our men and women in uniform into war, and to what end, ultimately?

So the list is just Name and injury, name and injury.

Name, unit, potentially location, if someone had documented that, and their injury.

And I knew, I didn't get to call home every day, but when I called home and talked to my parents, I felt the tension in their voice.

And they didn't want me to worry about anything at home, And so they were always like, hey, how are you?

But, you know, it wasn't like I was calling them from down the street and saying, hey, how's it going?

And so, I knew that the reason for that tension was they were terrified of getting a phone call delivering the worst possible news.

And that was what I thought of as I went through that list of how, you know, it is the reality of war.

Behind every 1 of those names on that list was a husband or a wife, parents, sons and daughters, family members who had no idea what we were dealing with, really.

All they knew was what they saw on the news.

And what my dad told me later when I got home after that deployment was that every time they saw the news and they saw a helicopter shot down or crashed or some IED, they held their breath until they saw or heard the news of who it was or what it was.

What can you say about what the soldiers had to go through physically and psychologically when they get injured?

The physical, you know, I mean, some injuries appeared to be minor up front.

At that time, traumatic brain injury was not something that was talked about much, if at all.

And so, you know, many had visible wounds, others are now what we know were, appeared like, all right, cool, you checked out, but had invisible wounds.

Those who were injured in a way that did not allow them to get back to work, found it emotionally very difficult to be put on a plane and evacuated out of there, feeling guilty that they were leaving their friends behind, and not thinking about themselves, or not feeling bad for themselves, but instead feeling bad for being forced to be in a position to leave.

Of course, we all have our own political opinions on things, but when it comes right down to it, in a war zone, it's about your friends, it's about your brothers and sisters that you're serving alongside.

It's not about the politicians or whatever insanity is going on in Washington.

It's about getting up and going out, getting the job done and coming back home together.

I mean, I had friends of mine who were from Hawaii, who were from American Samoa, very culturally tight-knit community, who confided in me throughout that, you know, year that we were there.

Some of the infantry soldiers who were going out on security patrols and doing raids every day.

Just some of the very traumatic experiences that they went through.

No physical injury, but creating a kind of emotional stress and trauma that as human beings, they were struggling in dealing with.

On a positive note, you know, the Polynesian culture especially, but also Asian culture and other cultures around the world, Our guys found that as they were, shortly after we got there, the unit that we were replacing, you know, were taking the guys out on patrol and saying, hey, here's this village, here's where we found friendlies, or here's where we know that there are insurgents operating, and they've got allies and lookouts, and, you know, showing them the lay of the land, basically.

And what our guys found was that as they were doing these ride-alongs, they call it a left seat, right seat, when you're coming in and taking over, that there was a bit of a tense, even adversarial type of relationship where on the military side, there was an assumption of suspicion or lack of trust, just with the local Iraqi people who lived around the base that we were at.

And without anybody telling them to culturally, our guys began trying to build relationships.

And for Hawaii and Samoa, and we had soldiers from Guam and Saipan.

Little things like you're riding down in a Humvee, you've got a gunner in the turret with a 50 cal or a machine gun of some sort.

Little things like pointing the muzzle to the sky as you're riding through a town rather than pointing it directly at where people are walking down the street was a huge gesture of an assumption of, hey, let's actually talk and become friends.

We had our guys riding down the street and throwing shakas out to the local people there, breaking bread, sharing tea, and building those relationships.

And again, I served in a medical unit and what we saw was a downward shift in casualties from the unit that had been there before us simply because of that basic human connection that our guys sought to make.

And then gradually finding like, hey, local, people who lived in the town right next to us are saying, hey, you guys should really, somebody was digging a big hole down this, a mile down the road.

You might wanna bypass that or check that out and finding weapons caches and IEDs, improvised explosive devices and other things that helped save people's lives.

On the cost side of things, how is it possible for a company like Haliburton or others to get away with $40 bananas or however much it was, the overhead costs?

Look, what they will claim is that it's expensive to move logistics through a country at war.

But they get away with it ultimately, this insane war profiteering, and they're not alone, obviously, there are other companies that...

They get away with it because of their political connections.

And the lobbyists that they have, the relationships they have with politicians, and ultimately what President Eisenhower warned against with regard to that cozy relationship between Congress and even what he called then the military industrial complex.

It's been alive and well, he warned us against it, and I would say it's thriving more now than ever before.

How powerful is the military-industrial complex as a thing?

Is it a machine that can be slowed down, can be stopped, can be reversed?

I don't think you can overstate the powerful nature of it because it extends so deeply within our government.

It's not just those in these specific big defense contracting companies that benefit from it.

You look at the revolving door within the Pentagon, for example, where you have both high-ranking people who wear military uniforms as well as those who serve as high-ranking Department of Defense civilians who are literally working their way into a big payout when they leave that job.

We see it with our own Secretary of Defense now.

He retired as a general officer, went and served on 1 of the boards for 1 of the big defense contractors, and then now back as the Secretary of Defense.

We see the same thing in Congress with members of Congress and senior professional staffers in Congress.

Same exact revolving door where you have people, whether they're writing contracts for the Department of Defense, for the company that then wins the bid for that contract and then going and working for that company, or those in Congress who are writing policies and doing exactly the same thing.

You have been both a war hawk and a war dove at times.

So what is your philosophy on when war is justified and when it is not?

War is justified when it is in the best interest of our national security, and when it is the last resort, when all diplomatic efforts have been completed and exhausted, and war is the last possible route that must be taken to ensure the safety, security and freedom of the American people.

So that's a high level, beautiful ideal, but there's messy details.

The United States involvement in the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was in part the big umbrella of the war on terrorism.

So, you know, when you decide whether something's justified or not, and whether something can be defeated or not, how hard is it, is it even possible, to what degree is it possible to defeat terrorism?

Well, first of all, there is, Part of the problem of our foreign policy has been how many conflicts, wars, military actions have been waged in the name of this quote-unquote war on terrorism, in the name of national security, legislation like the Patriot Act that violates civil liberties, our civil liberties and freedoms in the name of the war on terrorism and national security when it's not justified.

And so I'll use Afghanistan as an example.

I support the initial mission that lifted off shortly after the attack on 9-11, the Islamist terrorist attack on 9-11.

Military launched to go after those Al-Qaeda cells and Osama bin Laden in the wake of that attack.

That is the mission that should have been supported and focused on in its execution.

Instead, as you know, it was, attention was diverted very quickly to the regime change war in Iraq that was waged on false pretenses and the resources and focus was taken away from that initial mission that went to Afghanistan.

And the war in Afghanistan blew up into something that became about regime change and governance and the Taliban and less focus on Al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden.

And it became this thing that even general officers had a hard time, articulating, what is the objective here?

What, at what point do we know it's time to exit and get out?

And as you look at things like the Afghanistan files and others, the answers to these simple and essential questions shifted and changed over time, over a very long time.

Similarly, in Iraq, I bought into a lot of what was being sold by the administration and by Democrats and Republicans and Congress at the time.

And very quickly, even as I was on the ground there, started to have my eyes opened up into how we had been lied to tremendously, and how that protracted war went on for a very, very long time with decisions being made that ultimately served to strengthen terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda, the creation of ISIS and others, really undermining our national security interests in the meantime.

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Tulsi Gabbard: War, Politics, and the Military Industrial Complex | Lex Fridman Podcast #423