- The United States and Russia have a large number of deployed nuclear weapons
- A nuclear war between the two countries could kill billions of people
- The US has a policy of launching a counter-attack within 6 minutes of a nuclear warning
- The president has sole authority to launch nuclear weapons without needing permission from anyone else
- The speed and devastation of nuclear war is emphasized, with the author questioning how to prevent it.

- The piece discusses the inevitability of nuclear war and the lack of understanding among presidents about their responsibility in a nuclear attack
- Former Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta explains the weight of the decision to launch nuclear weapons to the president
- The immediacy of the decision to retaliate in a nuclear attack is highlighted, with a six-minute window to decide
- The arsenals of the United States and Russia are compared, with the capability to launch weapons in seconds or minutes
- The use of tactical nuclear weapons and the potential for escalation to strategic nuclear weapons is discussed
- The misinformation and disinformation surrounding nuclear weapons is highlighted
- The conversation about nuclear war is deemed necessary, as the world is at the brink of madness

- The speaker researched the time it takes for a nuclear warhead to reach the East Coast from different launch methods
- The process involves three phases: boost phase, mid-course phase, and terminal phase
- The time it takes for a missile to reach the East Coast varies depending on the launch method, with submarines being the fastest
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of communication in preventing nuclear war
- The speaker also discusses the capabilities of nuclear submarines and the speed at which they can launch missiles from underwater

- The location of silos in the US and Russia is publicly available
- Russia uses road mobile launchers for their ICBMs
- The CIA and intelligence agencies track the number of warheads and weapon systems in both countries
- DARPA is involved in creating new weapon systems, including nuclear weapons
- The "nuclear football" contains the President's orders for launching a counterattack in the event of a nuclear war
- The system for launching a counterattack is non-digital and involves a laminated plastic list of targets and weapon systems

- The National Military Command Center and Cheyenne Mountain are well-known bunkers, but the bunker beneath Strategic Command in Nebraska is less familiar.
- The STRATCOM bunker is described as the "muscle" of the operation, where the commander receives launch orders and directs the response.
- The doomsday plane from STRATCOM flies in circles around the US to launch nuclear weapons if ground systems are taken out.
- The US has 44 interceptor missiles with a 50% success rate, making it unlikely to effectively intercept incoming nuclear warheads.
- North Korea has an estimated 50-100 nuclear weapons, posing a threat that the current interceptor system may not effectively counter.

- North Korea's nuclear weapons program has no transparency
- No one wants to start a nuclear war by accident
- There have been at least 6 known close calls with nuclear war scenarios
- Bill Perry, former Secretary of Defense, experienced a false alarm in 1979
- Pentagon runs classified nuclear war scenarios, one declassified scenario called Proud Prophet
- Proud Prophet war game showed that no matter how nuclear war starts, it ends in Armageddon
- The concept of "escalate to deescalate" involves threatening a large response to stop an attack
- There is still a probability of errors leading to nuclear war

- The piece discusses the potential for nuclear war and the flaws in the current national security system
- It highlights the lack of communication and potential breakdown in communication during a crisis
- The piece also raises concerns about the advisors surrounding the president and the potential for a push towards aggressive counterattacks
- It mentions historical beliefs that a nuclear war could be won, but emphasizes the need for a shift in mindset
- The piece questions the cognitive abilities and training procedures of the president in handling a nuclear crisis

The United States and Russia have a large number of deployed nuclear weapons, with the potential for a devastating nuclear war between the two countries. The speed and devastation of nuclear war is emphasized, with a six-minute window to decide on a counter-attack. The piece discusses the inevitability of nuclear war and the lack of understanding among presidents about their responsibility in a nuclear attack. It also raises concerns about the flaws in the current national security system and the potential for errors leading to nuclear war.

- The speaker questions the qualifications of current presidential candidates for handling nuclear war scenarios
- Emphasizes the importance of the president's cognitive and judgment abilities in making decisions about nuclear war
- Discusses the process of launching nuclear weapons and the role of the STRATCOM commander
- Considers the possibility of the STRATCOM commander defying presidential orders in the event of an unreliable or non-presidential president
- Expresses doubt in any president being qualified for the responsibility of making decisions about nuclear war

- The speaker discusses the weight of the decision to launch nuclear weapons and the importance of being aware of who holds that power
- They have interviewed experts who have been involved in the development and use of nuclear weapons
- The Russian nuclear command and control system has flaws and there has been a recent shift in their nuclear policy
- Putin's background in intelligence may lead to paranoia and trigger-happy decision making
- Concerns about cyber attacks on the nuclear command and control system have been addressed by General Tuhill, who reassures that the system is mostly analog and not easily hackable

- The piece discusses the aftermath of a nuclear attack on America and its impact on communication and survival.
- It describes the devastating effects of a nuclear weapon, including the destruction of buildings, fires, radiation poisoning, and the breakdown of society.
- The director of FEMA explains the lack of population protection after a nuclear strike and the struggle for survival.
- The piece also explores the long-term effects of a nuclear war, including the nuclear winter theory.

- The nuclear winter theory was developed in the 1980s, and recent climate models show that it could be worse than previously thought
- After a nuclear war, megafires would burn large areas, soot would block out the sun, and agriculture would fail
- The aftermath of a nuclear war would lead to a depleted ozone layer, extreme cold, and the potential for human extinction
- The oldest known civilization in the world, Göbekli Tepe, was built by hunter-gatherers 12,000 years ago
- The impact of a nuclear war could lead to the loss of technological advancements and historical knowledge
- The potential for nuclear war to be forgotten and repeated is a terrifying thought
- The idea of what is buried, such as the wishing tree at Göbekli Tepe, is seen as a hopeful and optimistic concept
- The importance of communication and diplomacy to prevent the use of nuclear weapons is emphasized
- The concept of the "great filter" is discussed, questioning whether other alien civilizations are contending with similar existential threats.

- The speaker ponders the existence of alien civilizations and the possibility of a "great filter" preventing their discovery
- Astronaut Ed Mitchell's belief in the connection between human consciousness and the universe is discussed
- The speaker delves into the US government's investigations into extrasensory perception and psychokinesis, which began after World War II
- The CIA and military's interest in using ESP as a weapon is mentioned
- The Navy currently has a program based on soldiers' "Spidey Sense" from the war on terror

- The speaker discusses the concept of placebo and its origin from the CIA
- They express conflicting feelings about the CIA, having written about their aerial reconnaissance programs and kill programs
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of trust in their work as a reporter, sharing a personal story about a CIA operator
- They also talk about their experience with a veteran and the human connection they formed
- The speaker has written a book on Area 51 and discusses its legendary status as a center for testbed aerospace programs and captured aliens

- The speaker questions the qualifications of presidential candidates for handling nuclear war scenarios
- Emphasizes the importance of cognitive and judgment abilities in making decisions about nuclear war
- Discusses the process of launching nuclear weapons and the role of the STRATCOM commander
- Considers the possibility of the STRATCOM commander defying presidential orders
- Expresses doubt in any president being qualified for the responsibility of making decisions about nuclear war
- Discusses the devastating effects of a nuclear weapon and the aftermath of a nuclear attack
- Emphasizes the importance of communication and diplomacy to prevent the use of nuclear weapons
- Explores the concept of the "great filter" and the existence of alien civilizations
- Discusses the US government's investigations into extrasensory perception and psychokinesis
- Talks about their experience with a CIA operator and a veteran
- Mentions their book on Area 51 and its legendary status as a center for testbed aerospace programs and captured aliens

- Area 51 is a mysterious and top secret military facility in Nevada
- It was used to test spy planes and other advanced technology
- The interviewee does not believe in aliens visiting Earth, but acknowledges the possibility
- The CIA has engaged in strategic deception campaigns involving UFO sightings
- The interviewee questions the credibility of UFO narratives and believes they may be part of a larger deception campaign by intelligence agencies
- There is a possibility that the existence of aliens could be a strategic deception campaign by the CIA or other intelligence agencies

- The speaker discusses the possibility of a strategic deception campaign regarding UFOs and the government's involvement
- They mention an expert advisor who claims the Roswell incident was a disinformation campaign created by Stalin
- The source, Al O'Donnell, a nuclear weapons engineer, confessed to being involved in a program to create a similar hoax, leading to human experiments and deaths
- The speaker defends the credibility of the source and their decision to reveal this information, despite criticism

- The speaker discusses the ethical and moral implications of covert actions and assassinations carried out by the CIA
- The CIA has been involved in assassination during the Cold War, and the legal framework for these actions is outlined in Title 50
- The speaker also discusses the origin of covert operations and the challenges of carrying out assassinations in foreign nations
- The perspective of operators involved in these missions is also shared, including a hypothetical mission to assassinate Hugo Chavez

- The speaker discusses reconnaissance missions and the importance of confirming the target before an operation
- He shares a hypothetical conversation about who would win in a duel between two legendary agency guys
- The role of women in the Special Activities Division of the CIA is highlighted
- The speaker talks about the difficulty and dirty nature of assassinations, using the example of Imad Mugnia
- He discusses the strengths and weaknesses of different intelligence agencies, highlighting the need for multiple sourcing in journalism
- The recent death of Alexei Navalny in prison is mentioned, with speculation about whether it was natural causes or an assassination

- The speaker discusses Russia's history of assassinating dissidents, including a KGB assassin who defected to the US and exposed Russian assassination programs
- They compare the ruthlessness of the KGB to the surveillance tactics of the US government, noting the widespread sharing of personal data on social media
- The speaker also touches on the ethical implications of mass surveillance and the use of biometric data for drone strikes
- The discussion then shifts to the decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the possibility of Hitler and Germany developing the bomb first, based on research for the book "Operation Paperclip"

- The decision not to develop nuclear bombs was influenced by Hitler's prejudices
- Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended the war
- The development of thermonuclear bombs and the potential for war in the future is concerning
- The hope is for human civilization to evolve beyond war
- The use of artificial intelligence and autonomous weapons in war is a growing concern
- The speaker is optimistic about human evolution and hopes for a multi-planetary future
- Legacy and passing on knowledge to the next generation is important
- The peril of conflict is growing with new technologies
- The speaker is a fan of Annie Jacobson and thanks her for the conversation

Area 51 is a top secret military facility in Nevada used to test advanced technology, with the possibility of CIA deception campaigns involving UFO sightings. The speaker discusses ethical implications of covert actions by the CIA, including assassinations, and highlights the role of women in the Special Activities Division. The discussion also covers Russia's history of assassinations and the ethical implications of mass surveillance. The decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki is mentioned, with concerns about the potential for future wars and the use of artificial intelligence in warfare. The speaker is optimistic about human evolution and hopes for a multi-planetary future, emphasizing the importance of passing on knowledge to the next generation. The peril of conflict with new technologies is acknowledged, and the speaker expresses gratitude to Annie Jacobson for the conversation."""

Annie Jacobsen is an investigative journalist and author of "Nuclear War: A Scenario" and many other books on war, weapons, government secrecy, and national security. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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EPISODE LINKS:
Nuclear War: A Scenario (book): https://amzn.to/3THZHfr
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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
2:13 - Nuclear war
6:57 - Launch procedure
12:36 - Deterrence
16:09 - Tactical nukes
25:35 - Nuclear submarines
28:35 - Nuclear missiles
35:46 - Nuclear football
44:53 - Missile interceptor system
49:10 - North Korea
55:46 - Nuclear war scenarios
1:04:38 - Warmongers
1:09:06 - President's cognitive ability
1:15:19 - Refusing orders
1:23:17 - Russia and Putin
1:28:23 - Cyberattack
1:29:45 - Ground zero of nuclear war
1:34:24 - Surviving nuclear war
1:38:42 - Nuclear winter
1:49:05 - Alien civilizations
1:54:40 - Extrasensory perception
2:08:25 - Area 51
2:12:23 - UFOs and aliens
2:22:51 - Roswell incident
2:29:30 - CIA assassinations
2:48:23 - Navalny
2:50:48 - KGB
2:57:24 - Hitler and the atomic bomb
3:01:27 - War and human nature
3:04:53 - Hope

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The United States has 1,770 nuclear weapons deployed, meaning those weapons could launch in as little as 60 seconds and up to a couple minutes.

Some of them on the bombers might take an hour or so.

Russia has 1,674 deployed nuclear weapons.

Their weapon systems are on par with ours.

That's not to mention the 12,500 nuclear weapons amongst the 9 nuclear-armed nations.

The sucking up into the nuclear stem, 300 mile-an-hour winds, you're talking about people miles out getting sucked up into that stem.

When you see the mushroom cloud, Lex, that would be people.

30, 40 mile wide mushroom cloud blocking out the sun.

And that speaks nothing of the radiation poisoning that follows.

In addition to the launch on warning concept, There's this other insane concept called sole presidential authority.

And you might think in a democracy that's impossible, right?

Well, you can just start a nuclear war if you're the commander in chief, the president of the United States.

In fact, you're the only 1 who can do that.

We are 1 misunderstanding, 1 miscalculation away from nuclear Armageddon.

No matter how nuclear war starts, it ends with everyone dead.

The following is a conversation with Annie Jacobson, an investigative journalist, Pulitzer Prize finalist, and author of several amazing books on war, weapons, government secrecy, and national security, including the books titled Area 51, Operation Paperclip, The Pentagon's Brain, Phenomena, Surprise Kill Vanish, and her new book, nuclear war.

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

And now, dear friends, here's Annie Jacobson.

Let's start with an immensely dark topic, nuclear war.

How many people would a nuclear war between the United States and Russia kill?

So I'm coming back at you with a very dark answer and a very big number, and that number is 5000000000 people.

You go second by second minute by minute hour by hour what would happen if the nuclear war started.

So there's a lot of angles from which I would love to talk to you about this.

At first, how would the deaths happen in the short term and the long term?

So To start off, the reason I wrote the book is so that readers like you could see in appalling detail just how horrific nuclear war would be.

And as you said, second by second, minute by minute, The book covers nuclear launch to nuclear winter.

I purposely don't get into the politics that lead up to that or the national security maneuvers or the posturing or any of that.

I just want people to know nuclear war is insane.

And every source I interviewed for this book, from Secretary of Defense, all retired, nuclear sub force commander, STRATCOM commander, FEMA director, on and on and on, nuclear weapons engineers, they all shared with me the common denominator that nuclear war is insane.

You know, first millions, then tens of millions, then hundreds of millions of people will die in the first 72 minutes of a nuclear war.

And then comes nuclear winter where the billions happen from starvation.

And so The shock power of all of this is meant for each and every 1 of us to say, wait, what?

This actually exists behind the veil of national security.

And I don't know, you know, most people do not think about nuclear war on a daily basis and yet hundreds of thousands of people in the nuclear command and control are at the ready in the event it happens.

But it doesn't take too many people to start 1.

In the words of Richard Garwin who was the nuclear weapons engineer who drew the plans for the Ivy Mike thermonuclear bomb, the first thermonuclear bomb ever exploded in 1952.

Garwin shared with me his opinion that all it takes is 1 nihilistic madman with a nuclear arsenal to start a nuclear war.

What are the different ways it could start?

Like literally who presses a button and what does it take to press a button?

Meaning the US Defense Department has a early warning system.

It's a constellation of satellites that is keeping an eye on all of America's enemies so that the moment an ICBM launches, the satellite in space, and I'm talking about one-tenth of the way to the moon, that's how powerful these satellites are in geosync, they see the hot rocket exhaust on the ICBM in a fraction of a second after it launches.

And so there begins this horrifying policy called launch on warning, right?

Meaning, the reason that the United States is so ferociously watching for a nuclear launch somewhere around the globe is so that the nuclear command and control system in the U.S.

Can move into action to immediately make a counter-strike.

Because we have that policy launch on warning, which is exactly like it says.

It means The United States will not wait to absorb a nuclear attack.

It will launch nuclear weapons in response before the bomb actually hits.

So the president, as part of the launch on warning policy, has 6 minutes.

I guess can't launch for 6 minutes, but at 6 minute mark from that first warning, the president can launch.

And that was 1 of the most remarkable details to really nail down for this book when I was reporting this book and talking to Secretary of Defense's for example, who are the people who advise the President on this matter.

You say to yourself, Wait a minute, how could that possibly be?

So in addition to the launch on warning concept, there's this other insane concept called sole presidential authority.

Well, you can just start a nuclear war if you're the commander-in-chief, the president of the United States.

And we can get into later why that exists.

I was able to get the origin story of that concept from Los Alamos.

But the idea behind that is that nuclear war will unfold so fast only 1 person can be in charge, the president.

He asked permission of no 1, not the Secretary of Defense, not the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, not the U.S.

So built into that is this extraordinary speed you talk about, the six-minute window.

And some people say, oh, that's ridiculous.

Well, here's the best sort of, you know, hitting the nail on the head statement I can give you, which is in President Reagan's memoirs he refers to the 6 minute window.

And he says, he calls it irrational, which it is.

He says, how can anyone make a decision to launch nuclear weapons based on a blip on a radar scope?

And yet that is the reality behind nuclear war.

Just imagine sitting there, 1 person, because the president is a human being.

Sitting there, just got the warning that Russia launched.

You know, I meditate on my mortality every day and here you would be sitting and meditating, contemplating not just your own mortality, but the mortality of all the people you know, loved ones.

Just imagining, what would be going through my head is all the people I know and love, like personally, and knowing that there'll be no more most likely.

And if they somehow survive, they will be suffering and will eventually die.

I guess the question that kept coming up is, how do we stop this?

Is it inevitable that it's going to be escalated to a full-on nuclear war that destroys everything and it seems like it it will be.

In the position of the president it's almost inevitable that they have to respond.

I mean 1 of the things I found shocking was how little apparently most presidents know about the responsibility that literally lays at their feet right so you may think through this six-minute window I may think through this six-minute window but what I learned like for example former Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta was really helpful in explaining this to me because before he was SecDef, he served as the director of the CIA.

And before that he was the White House chief of staff.

And so he has seen these different roles that have been so close to the president.

But he explained to me that when he was the White House Chief of Staff for President Clinton, he noticed how President Clinton didn't want to ever really deal with the nuclear issue because he had so many other issues to deal with.

And that only when Panetta became Secretary of Defense, he told me, did he really realize the weight of all of this?

Because he knew he would be the person that the president would turn to were he to be notified of a nuclear attack.

And by the way, it's the launch on warning.

It's the ballistic missile seen from outer space by the satellite.

And then there also must be a second confirmation

But in that process, which is just a couple minutes, everyone is getting ready to notify the president.

And 1 of the first people that gets notified by NORAD or by STRATCOM or by NRO, these different parties that all see the early warning data.

1 of the first people that's notified is the Secretary of Defense as well as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff because those 2 together are going to brief the president about, you know, sir, you have 6 minutes to decide.

And that's where you realize the immediacy of all of this is so counter to imagining the scenario.

And again, all the presidents come into office, I have learned, understanding the idea of deterrence, this idea that we have these massive arsenals of nuclear weapons pointed at 1 another ready to launch so that we never have nuclear war.

But what we're talking about now is what if we did?

And what you've raised is like this really spooky, eerie subtext of the world right now because many of the nuclear armed nations are in direct conflict with other nations.

And for the first time in decades, nuclear threats are actually coming out of the mouths of leaders.

So deterrence, the polite implied assumption is that nobody will launch, and if they did, we would launch back and everybody would be dead.

But that assumption falls apart completely.

The whole philosophy of it falls apart once the first launch happens.

Then you have 6 minutes to decide, wait a minute, are we going to hit back and kill everybody on earth?

Or do we turn the other cheek in the most horrific way possible?

Well, when nuclear war starts, there's no like battle for New York or battle for Moscow.

It's just literally, you know, it was called in the Cold War push-button warfare, but in essence that is what it is.

Let's get some numbers on the table if you don't mind, right?

Because when you're saying like, wait a minute, we're just hoping that it holds, right?

Let's just talk about Russia and the U.S., the arsenals that are literally pointed at 1 another right now, right?

So the United States has 1,770 nuclear weapons deployed, meaning those weapons could launch in as little as 60 seconds and up to a couple minutes.

Same scenario, their weapon systems are on par with ours.

That's not to mention the 12,500 nuclear weapons amongst the 9 nuclear armed nations.

But when you think about those kind of arsenals of just between the United States and Russia, you realize everything can be launched in seconds and minutes.

Then you realize the madness of Matt, that this idea that no 1 would launch because it would assure everyone's destruction.

And in my interviews with scores of top-tier national security advisors, people who advise the president, people who are responsible for these decisions if they had to be made.

Every single 1 of them said it could happen.

And so the idea is worth thinking about because I believe that it pulls back the veil on a fundamental security that if someone were to use a tactical nuclear weapon, oh well it's just an escalation.

So to you the use of a tactical nuclear weapon, maybe you can draw the line between a tactical and a strategic nuclear weapon that could be a catalyst.

Like that's a very difficult thing to walk back from.

And again, every person in the national security environment tells, we'll agree with that, right?

Strategic weapons, those are like big weapons systems.

We have our ICBMs which are the silo-based missiles that have a nuclear warhead in the nose cone and they can get from 1 continent to the other in roughly 30 minutes.

Then we have our bombers B-52s and B-2s that are nuclear capable.

Those take travel time to get to another continent.

The ICBMs cannot be recalled or redirected once launched.

So land launched missiles, rockets with a warhead can't be recalled.

And speaking of how little the president generally know as we were talking a moment ago, President Reagan in 1983 gave a press conference where he misstated that submarine-launched ballistic missiles could be recalled.

So that gives you – here's the guy in charge of the arsenal if it has to get let loose and he doesn't even know that they cannot be recalled.

So this is the kind of misinformation and disinformation.

And, you know, UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres recently said, when he was talking about the conflicts rising around the world, he said, we are 1 misunderstanding, 1 miscalculation away from nuclear Armageddon.

So just to sort of linger on the previous point of tactical nukes, so you're describing strategic nukes, land launched, bombers, submarine launched, What are tactical nukes?

We have the triad and Russia has the triad.

Tactical nuclear weapons are smaller warheads that were designed to be used in battle.

And that is what Russia is sort of threatening to use right now.

That is this idea that you would, You know, make a decision on the battlefield in an operational environment to use a tactical nuclear weapon.

But the problem is that all treaties are based on this idea of no nuclear use, right?

And so the what would happen if the line is crossed is so devastating to even consider.

I think that the conversation is well worth having among everyone that is in a power of position.

How, as you know, the UN Secretary General said, this is madness, right?

So land launched, how long does it take to travel across the ocean from the United States to Russia, from Russia to the United States, from China to the United States, approximately how long?

When I was writing an earlier book on DARPA, the Pentagon Science Agency, I went to a library down in San Diego called the Giesel Library to look at Herb York's papers.

Herb York was the first chief scientist for the Pentagon for DARPA, then called ARPA.

And I had been trying to get the number from the various agencies that be to answer, like, what is the exact number and how do we know it?

And you know, as technology advances, does that number reduce?

And no 1 will answer that question on an official level.

And so, much to my surprise, I found the answer in Herb York's dusty archive of papers.

And this is information that was jealously guarded.

I mean, it didn't – it was not – it's not necessarily classified, but it certainly wasn't out there.

And I felt like, wow, Herb York left these behind for someone like me to find, right?

And what the process – he wanted to know the answer to your question.

So he hired this group of scientists who then and still are in many ways like the supermen scientists of the Pentagon and they're called the Jason scientists.

I interviewed their founder and have interviewed many of them.

But they whittled the number down to seconds, okay?

Because this is where my jaw dropped and I went, wow.

So 26 minutes and 40 seconds from a launch pad in the Soviet Union to the East Coast.

Very simple and interesting to remember because then suddenly all of this makes more sense.

Boost phase, mid-course phase, and then terminal phase, okay?

So you just imagine a rocket going off the launch pad and the fire beneath it.

Again, that's why the satellites can see it, okay?

5 minutes, and that's where the rocket can be tracked.

And then imagine learning, wait a minute, after 5 minutes, the rocket can no longer be seen from space.

The satellite can only see the hot rocket exhaust.

Then the missile enters its mid-course phase, 20 minutes.

And that's the ballistic part of it, where it's kind of flying up at between 500 and 700 miles above the Earth and moving very fast and with the Earth until it gets very close to its target and the last 100 seconds are terminal phase.

It's where the warhead re-enters the atmosphere and detonates.

Now, in my scenario, I open with North Korea launching a 1 megaton nuclear warhead at Washington, D.C.

That's the bolt out of the blue attack that everyone in Washington will tell you they're afraid of.

And North Korea has a little bit different geography and so I had MIT professor emeritus Ted Postel do the math.

33 minutes from a launch pad in Pyongyang to the east coast of the United States.

But hopefully now that allows readers to suddenly see all this as a real – you almost see it as poetry, as terrible as that may sound.

You can visualize it and suddenly it makes sense.

And I think the sense making part of it is really what I'm after in this book because I want people to understand on The 1 hand it's incredibly simple, it's just the people that have made it so complicated.

But it's 1 of those things that can change all of world history in a matter of minutes.

We just don't as a human civilization have experience with that.

I mean, I think what you're after, and I couldn't agree more with, is like Why is this fundamentally annihilating system, a system of mass genocide as John Rubell in the book refers to it, why does it still exist?

We've had 75 years since there have been 2 superpowers with the nuclear bomb.

So that threat has been there for 75 years and we have managed to stay alive.

1 of the reasons why so many of the sources in the book agreed to talk to me, people who had not previously gone on the record about all of this, was because they are now approaching the end of their lives.

They spent their lives dedicated to preventing nuclear World War III.

And they'll be the first people to tell you we're closer to this as a reality than ever before.

And so on the bright, the only bright side of any of this Is that like the answer lies most definitely in communication?

So there's a million other questions here.

I think the details are fascinating and important to understand.

You mentioned about 30 minutes, 26, 33 minutes, but with nuclear submarines, that number can be much, much lower.

So how long does it take for a warhead to, a missile to reach the East Coast of the United States from a submarine.

And then you kind of realize about the submarines.

I mean, the submarines are what are called second strike capacity, right?

And you know, it was described, submarines were described to me this way.

They are as dangerous to civilization, and let me say a nuclear-armed, nuclear-powered submarine is as dangerous to civilization as an asteroid, okay?

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Annie Jacobsen: Nuclear War, CIA, KGB, Aliens, Area 51, Roswell & Secrecy | Lex Fridman Podcast #420