- Tal Wilkenfeld, a musician who has performed with many legendary artists, talks about the importance of taking risks and not being afraid of making mistakes in music.
- He discusses his experience playing with Jeff Beck at the 2007 Crossroads Festival and the importance of not letting fear limit musical expression.
- Wilkenfeld emphasizes the value of being on the edge of the cliff, where all possibilities and unknowns exist, and how recovery from mistakes is crucial in musical performance.
- He shares a story about playing a note he didn't like at a festival and how he learned to let go of mistakes and not dwell on them.

- The speaker discusses the importance of confidence and trust in their performances.
- Mentions their mentor, legendary bassist Anthony Jackson, and the impact he had on their musical development.
- Talks about the meditative and centering effects of meditation before performances and in daily life.
- Reflects on the grief of losing influential musicians like Prince and Leonard Cohen, and how it impacted their musical journey.

- The speaker went through a period of grief and unplugged from work to process it
- They found solace and healing by spending time with comedians at the Comedy Store
- They received support from friends and musicians during their grief
- The speaker found inspiration in the songwriting of Leonard Cohen and shared a personal connection to his song "Chelsea Hotel"
- They discussed the meaning and impact of certain lyrics in Cohen's songs

- The musician Leonard Cohen is known for rewriting his lyrics and had a connection with the singer
- The singer lived in the Chelsea Hotel and performed a song that Cohen noticed, leading to a connection
- They discuss loneliness and the healing aspect of being in an empty hotel room
- The singer also talks about meditating on tour and participating in a silent meditation retreat while on the road

- The speaker discusses the concept of holonic theory and how it applies to meditation
- They have experience in Zen and Vedanta monasteries, finding value in both disciplines
- They are a songwriter and enjoy love songs that can be interpreted in multiple ways
- They have had conversations with Eric Weinstein about the deeper meaning of songs
- They learned to practice guitar in their head due to limited time constraints

- The musician learned to practice in his head for 30 minutes a day because his parents limited his practice time
- He recommends visualizing the fretboard in your head for efficient practice
- He also recommends taking short breaks during practice to allow the brain to integrate information
- He discusses the importance of understanding why you are playing music and the uncertain lifestyle of a musician
- He believes that every instrument has its own journey and strengths, but ultimately all musicians are playing the same notes

- The speaker discusses the universal nature of music and the importance of technical skill in playing an instrument
- Mentions the value of self-teaching and the availability of resources like YouTube for learning
- Emphasizes the importance of learning from masters in person and the impact of greatness on learning
- Talks about the need for slowing down in playing and the spiritual aspect of music
- Discusses the difference between bass and bass and the techniques of finger style and slap
- Concludes with a lighthearted conversation about playing the bass and different techniques

Tal Wilkenfeld, a musician who has performed with legendary artists, discusses the importance of taking risks and not being afraid of mistakes in music. He emphasizes the value of being on the edge of the cliff, recovery from mistakes, confidence, and trust in performances. Wilkenfeld reflects on grief, finding solace in comedy, and the impact of Leonard Cohen's music. He also talks about meditation, holonic theory, songwriting, and the universal nature of music. Additionally, he shares tips for efficient practice and the spiritual aspect of music.

- The speaker discusses the use of electric bass in jazz and jazz fusion
- They emphasize the importance of individual sound and unique choices in music
- They prioritize the song and its message over genre
- They value authenticity and creativity in music
- They prefer to approach music sessions without hearing a demo to allow for more organic and spontaneous creativity

- The musician discusses recording with Prince and the quickness of his takes
- Prince preferred to record to tape without punching in for mistakes
- They also discuss the value of imperfections in music and the influence of artists like Jimi Hendrix and Bob Dylan
- The musician values supportive mentorship and the development of individual talent without harsh criticism

- The speaker discusses the concept of longing and gratitude, as well as the role of mentors in sports and art
- They talk about the emotional impact of music and the impermanence of life
- The importance of tackling fears and embracing love is emphasized
- The speaker ends by playing a "suffering song" in response to a request

- The piece includes a sound check and a song performance
- The song talks about feeling stuck and the struggle of change
- There is a discussion about the sound quality and a compliment to the performer
- The performer sings a song about feeling trapped in a relationship and the struggle it brings

- The speaker enjoyed meeting and talking to the person
- They joke about getting a private concert if the person is playing chess with themselves
- The conversation with Tal Wilkenfeld is ending
- The podcast sponsors are mentioned
- A quote from Maya Angelou about music is shared
- The speaker thanks the listener and hopes to see them again

- Discussion of electric bass in jazz and jazz fusion
- Emphasis on individual sound and unique choices in music
- Prioritization of song and message over genre
- Value of authenticity and creativity in music
- Preference for organic and spontaneous creativity in music sessions
- Recording with Prince and his approach to recording
- Value of imperfections in music and influence of artists like Jimi Hendrix and Bob Dylan
- Importance of supportive mentorship and development of individual talent
- Concept of longing, gratitude, and the emotional impact of music
- Embracing love and tackling fears
- Performance of a "suffering song" and discussion of its meaning
- Mention of podcast sponsors and a quote from Maya Angelou
- Thanks to the listener and hopes to see them again

Tal Wilkenfeld is a singer-songwriter, bassist, and guitarist. She has performed with legendary artists including Jeff Beck, Prince, Incubus, Eric Clapton, Herbie Hancock, Mick Jagger, Rod Stewart, Hans Zimmer, Pharrell Williams, and many more. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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TRANSCRIPT:
https://lexfridman.com/tal-wilkenfeld-transcript

EPISODE LINKS:
Tal's Instagram: https://instagram.com/talmeastory
Tal's Twitter: https://twitter.com/talwilkenfeld
Tal's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/talwilkenfeld/
Tal's YouTube: https://youtube.com/TalWilkenfeld
Tal's Love Remains record: https://talwilkenfeld.lnk.to/LoveRemains
Tal's Linktree: https://linktr.ee/talwilkenfeld
Big thank you to Crossroads Guitar Festival and Jeff Beck Estate for the footage included in this podcast.
Crossroads Guitar Festival: https://crossroadsguitarfestival.com/
Jeff Beck & Tal Wilkenfeld at Crossroads: https://youtube.com/watch?v=BVgUzUZeTw4
Guitar: Jeff Beck
Bass: Tal Wilkenfield
Drums: Vinnie Colaiuta
Keyboards: Jason Rebello
"Cause We've Ended As Lovers" is originally by Stevie Wonder

PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41

OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:08 - Jeff Beck
10:00 - Confidence on stage
26:39 - Leonard Cohen
34:39 - Taxi Driver
46:00 - Songwriting
49:40 - How to learn and practice
1:08:10 - Slap vs Fingerstyle
1:14:33 - Davie504
1:18:53 - Prince
1:24:30 - Jimi Hendrix
1:26:44 - Mentorship
1:33:02 - Sad songs
1:39:00 - Tal performs Under The Sun (live)
1:44:16 - Tal performs Killing Me (live)

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I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night.

And if I mess something up, mess it up, what even is a mistake?

But if I do a little clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what?

I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff like wild.

Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities.

The following is a conversation with Tal Wilkenfeld, a singer-songwriter, bassist, guitarist, and a true musician who has recorded and performed with many legendary artists, including Jeff Beck, Prince, Eric Clapton, Incubus, Herbie Hancock, Mick Jagger, Jackson Brown, Rod Stewart, David Gilmour, Pharrell, Hans Zimmer, and many, many more.

This was a fun and fascinating conversation.

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

And now, dear friends, here's Tal Wilkenfelt.

There's a legendary video of you playing with Jeff Beck.

We're actually watching it in the background now.

So for people who don't know, Jeff is 1 of the greatest guitarists ever.

So you were playing with him at the 2007 Crossroads Festival.

And people should definitely watch that video.

I think that you can get an adrenaline rush before a stage, which is natural, but I think as soon as you bring fear to a bandstand, you're limiting yourself.

You're kind of like, walling yourself off from everyone else.

If you're afraid, what is there to be afraid of?

You must be afraid of making a mistake, and therefore you're coming at it as like a perfectionist and you can't come at music that way or it's not gonna be as expansive and vulnerable and true.

So, no, I was excited and passionate and having the best time And also, you know, the fact that he gave me this solo.

The context of this performance is that this was a guitar festival.

It's 1 of the biggest guitar festivals in the world because it's Eric Clapton's festival.

There's like 400 guitarists that are all playing solos all night.

We were like towards the end of the night.

I could tell Jeff got a kick out of, you know, I'm not going to solo on 1 of my most well-known songs, Castlevania and His Lovers.

Well, Stevie Wonder wrote it, but people know Jeff for that song and his solo on it.

And the fact that he's bowing, he didn't have to do that.

It just it just shows what a generous musician he is and that's evident in his playing across the board.

He's not there for himself, he's there for the music.

And he thought, well this would be the perfect musical thing to do.

It all started when I went to audition for him, which was an interesting experience because I got food poisoning on the plane.

Literally when the plane landed, I went straight into an ambulance into a hospital overnight.

The manager picked me up and I showed up at Jeff's door which is like a three-hour drive like through windy country roads And he answered the door and he's like, okay, you're ready to play.

So we went upstairs and started like rattling off the set.

And when it came to this song, Cause of Innocence Lovers, he just said solo and he, he loved it and kept the solo in it.

So that's kind of how, because there was no bass solo before I was playing in his band.

So even with food poisoning, like you could step up.

It's just being able to differentiate from like the body and from like expression music.

You know, it's interesting you said fear walls you off from the other musicians.

You know, Beethoven said, to play a wrong note is insignificant, to play without passion is inexcusable.

Different styles of music invite varying degrees of, I would say, uncertainty or unsafety in the way that people might perceive it.

So for instance, like the tour that I was just on, like playing all my brother's songs, Like I am standing on the edge of the cliff the entire night.

And if I, you know, mess something up, mess it up, like what even is a mistake?

But if I do like a little clunker or whatever it is, it's like, so what?

Like I wouldn't have played half the stuff that I'm playing if I wasn't constantly standing on the edge of the cliff like wild.

And so I don't care about those few little things.

And then there's other gigs that, for instance, if I got called for a pop or country session or a show, in those environments, they may want you to play safe.

Just play the part and play it with a great groove and time and great dynamics and don't really veer away from the pot and stuff.

What do you get from the veering, from the veering off the beaten path?

You just love it, or is that gonna make the performance better?

Because at the edge of the cliff is all possibilities and unknown, you don't know what's coming, And I love being there in the unknown.

Otherwise it's just like, well, why are we doing this?

Am I just like a clown on stage, like showing you my skills or what I've studied in my bedroom.

It's like, no, like I wanna be like pure expression happening right now and responding in real time to everything that's happening.

And anytime I'm not doing that, it's like it's a waste of everybody's time.

I mean, you know comedians bomb, you're a big fan of comedy.

You know, and the more times that you fall off the cliff, the quicker you know how to recover and the varying ways that you can recover to the point in which it's concealed so much that maybe a listener might not even know that you're recovering.

And eventually you learn to fly if we take that metaphor all the way off the cliff.

I remember 1 time when I was really young, well, not really young, but when I was 21

But when I was first playing with Jeff Beck, and we played at what I consider the best, the coolest jazz festival, Montreux Jazz.

And like Miles played there, everyone played there, and they have the best speaker system ever.

And the drummer Vinny was like practicing for like 8 hours in the bus on the way there.

And I remember playing a note, just 1 note that I really didn't like.

And I let it go in the moment on stage, but as soon as I got off stage, I was really sad.

I sat on this road case, everyone was out celebrating, I sat on this road case with a sad face, like boo-hoo.

Then Claude Knobbs, the owner of the whole festival, came up to me and he's like, Dahl, what's wrong?

And he said all this wise stuff that Miles Davis had imparted to him, and it fully cheered me up.

He's like, is there anything that would make you feel better?

The dude came back 10 minutes later with this huge thing.

It was a joke, it was a joke, but he actually brought me caviar.

But anyway, that's the 1 time that I remember being sad about a performance.

Now I'm just like, okay, whatever, it's done.

Was it a physical slip of like the fingers or was it, did you intend to play that note?

I can't remember if it was just a bad choice that sounded like a clanger or why it happened.

It was so long ago, but I don't get depressed about that anymore.

That'd be funny if that was like your biggest and only regret in life is that note that haunted you in your dreams.

And then like, you know, like I'm on my deathbed and just everyone's just bringing me caviar.

You talked about confidence somewhere, I don't remember where.

So I wanna ask you about how much confidence it takes to be up there.

You said something that Anthony Jackson told you as encouragement, a line that I really like, that quote, on your worst day, you're still a bad motherfucker.

That's actually a Steve Gadd quote, and Steve used to tell that to Anthony, because Anthony used to get real depressed if he did a wrong thing or not perfect thing, and Steve Gadd used to say this to Anthony Jackson, and then Anthony was my first bass mentor, or just mentor in general.

For people who don't know, he's a legendary bassist.

He's a legendary bassist, and I started playing the bass when I was 17.

And I moved to New York, and I met Anthony, and he started mentoring me, but in a very not typical way.

Like he would just sit in his car with me for hours and talk music.

And- You guys just listen to music and analyze it?

And that was the best form of learning, I think.

Just like, well, what do you perceive here?

And, well, I heard this, and just discussing that.

And yeah, he told me that story about, on your worst day, because, you know, like, yeah, even then, like when I was like 18, 19, I get sad sometimes about performances.

It's like, I don't do that anymore, thankfully, or I'd be miserable.

So you still, you always kind of feel pretty good.

Now it's just, I sense the body feeling fatigued, especially if it's a very long show, like the ones I just did with 3 hour shows, and we did, you know, 1 to 3 hour sound checks.

So that's a lot of physical activity every day.

So I just feel the body being tired, like fatigued, the ears are fatigued.

You're almost like from a third person perspective, feel the body get tired and just accept it?

Yeah, I don't wanna identify with it because then I'm tired, but I'm not tired.

It's like with the food poisoning, the mind is still capable of creative genius even if the body is gone.

So no self-critical component to the way you see your performances anymore?

There is critique, but not in the way that it would diminish my sense of self.

I can just kind of look at something and be like, okay, well, actually, next time I'll do this choice and this choice, maybe.

Maybe this would help the groove feel more like this, but it's not like I suck because I did this and I'm a loser and like.

Because Even when I asked that question, I had a self-critical thought.

I always have the self-critical engine running.

It depends if it's affecting you negatively.

Well, if it brings your frequency down and you feel less joyful inside, unless you don't feel like complete, you feel less than, less worthy of something, then you could call that bad if you aspire to not feel that way.

Yeah, I aspire to not feel that way in the big picture.

But in the little picture, like there's a little pain is good.

So confidence, You seem like in this performance, you seem confident.

You seem to be truly walking the bad motherfucker way of life.

I kind of, a word that I prefer over confidence is trust, because I think with confidence is almost like there's a belief assigned to it that I am this thing that you believe in.

Whereas trust is just simply knowing that you can get up there and handle whatever is going to come your way.

And it's more of an open feeling where it's like, yeah, I could do this, sure.

Cause I've shared the stage with people who have a lot of confidence, and it can be like a brick wall, just like fear is a brick wall.

Like the thing you have with Jeff here on stage-

How can you explain that chemistry, the 2 you had?

And also I will say, you know, that each individual has developed likes and dislikes over their lifetime, and that can be like, in this case, we're just talking aesthetic likes and dislikes.

So in this particular case, obviously, our likes and dislikes are very much aligned, such that the things I do to compliment him, he enjoys and vice versa.

But it could be 2 very trusting, open musicians on stage that don't have walls up, but their choices are very different.

And 1 person likes heavy metal and the other person likes classical.

So you guys were good at like, yes, anding each other musically.

Is that where you're most at peace in a meditative way, is on stage?

It used to be that it would only be on stage.

That was almost like my way in to flow state and meditation was playing music.

And then back in the day when I'd kind of crash after shows, I wanted to change that.

I wanted to always feel like I'm in flow state.

I'm still obviously on the journey, but yes.

So you meditate, I think you've said somewhere that you meditate before shows or just in general?

When I'm on tour with my band, I ask that we all meditate together for at least 20 minutes.

And I don't dictate which type of meditation, I don't put on a guided meditation because everyone has their own thing they want to do.

Maybe someone might be praying in their head, it doesn't matter.

It's just the idea that we all put our phones down and we all are in 1 room connecting energetically, spiritually, and just letting our lives go for a second.

And then we walk straight on the stage and it's always really connected.

And there were a couple gigs where we ran out of time for that, and I could tell.

There was a major difference in the performance.

So it both connects you and centers you, all of those things.

Yeah, but then when I'm home, I love to meditate, and I've tried various styles of meditation and studied various types of things.

I kind of customize it depending on where I'm at in my life.

You and the world lost Jeff back a year ago.

How's the pain of losing Jeff change you?

You know, it's hard to accept that we won't create something musically again in this lifetime.

But in terms of the grief, grief was easier for me because I went through a major grief period in 2016 and 17.

And that was the first time I'd really gone through the process of grief in a non-family situation, like with friends and mentors and people that I'd created with, which is different.

When my grandparents died, it's like there was nothing left unsaid and I was at peace with what was happening.

With this, when Prince died out of the blue in mid-2016, and then Leonard Cohen died in November, that just tore me to shreds because Leonard Cohen was not just someone that profoundly inspired me, you know, musically and lyrically, but spiritually we had a very deep connection.

And that was the basis of a lot of our conversation was spirituality.

And So at that time, I felt like a piece of me went missing.

And that was a very long process where I just stayed in my place and didn't want to play a note of music.

I kind of wanted to just get rid of all my stuff.

So I had a friend come over and he's like, you should just, why don't you come to the comedy store?

Like, What am I gonna go to some store and buy clown suits?

He's like, no, no, no, like the comedy store, the place where like comedians go.

I'm like, okay, well, I've never seen standup.

I don't, you know, I've seen Seinfeld on TV.

That's like the extent of my standup experience.

So he took me to the comedy store and every single 1 of those comedians like embraced me like I was family.

I was like part of the family and I made like 25 best friends.

And I ended up throwing all my stuff in storage and like finding a little room to stay in where I rented my gear out.

And that was me paying, my rent paying was me loaning the gear.

Because I didn't want any responsibilities, financial.

I just wanted to be completely free so that I could just process it and not feel like I had to commit to anything work-wise or creatively.

And so this was like a fun and very different way to unplug because previously I may have just gone to a monastery and spent weeks at a monastery or months, but in this case I was like, you know what, this is a different kind of experience.

I'm going to just hang out with comedians and stay in this room.

Other than to really deeply connect with this grief that I'm experiencing.

I'm not, I'm going to really fully connect to it.

And then, you know, more people in 2017 were leaving.

I mean, it was like, these are people that I, I worked with all these people and like had great connections with them.

And they were all going and the world was mourning the loss of these people because of everything that they'd given to the world.

Like they'd changed the world's lives, not just mine, because I knew him personally.

And so that was also complicated and why, for me, it was interesting to be grieving the loss of these musicians with comedians.

And I learned a lot, it changed my life because I just learned to laugh at absolutely anything.

I mean, my grandpa had a really great sense of humor too.

My grandpa's a Holocaust survivor and like he could just kind of like laugh at anything and like I already kind of have that in me, but being around all these comedians just kind of like exaggerated that for me and that really changed things for me for the better.

So Then when Jeff Beck died, it was like, I've got these tools, I know what this is, and I'm going to go through it again, and I'm going to be on tour with Incubus in 2 days.

Mike Dernt from Green Day, he called me up and he said, ''Hey, I know you're going through a lot.'' I said, ''I don't even know what I'm going to play.

I really want a vintage jazz bass for this.

I only have a 70s 1 that I don't really think is appropriate.

And Mike's like, I'm going to hook you up.

He showed up to my place the next day with a truckload of old P basses and jazz basses and brought them all into my studio.

And then I pull 1 out of the case and it's Olympic white, just like Jeff Beck.

I play it and not only did I get goose bumps and started crying, but I looked over at Mike and same thing was happening.

He's like, I guess Jeff might be happy about this.

He's like, well, I didn't want to let this 1 go.

I was just trying to cheer you up a bit and maybe loan it to you for the tour, but if you really want it, it's yours." I was like, oh my God.

This is like Mike Dunn is the nicest guy ever.

That happened, so that bass's name is Jeff, and it's a white jazz bass, and I played it on the Incubus Tour.

But yeah, I do feel like I'm more equipped to handle grief now.

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Tal Wilkenfeld: Music, Guitar, Bass, Jeff Beck, Prince, and Leonard Cohen | Lex Fridman Podcast #408