Ryan Hall is an American black belt and instructor in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, and a professional mixed martial artist currently competing in the featherweight division of the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC). He is known for a number of competitive achievements, ranging from Mundial and ADCC victories to dozens of Grapplers Quest championships. He is the winner of The Ultimate Fighter Season 22. He holds notable victories over former UFC Lightweight and Welterweight Champion BJ Penn, former UFC Lightweight Title challenger Gray Maynard and Artem Lobov.

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In class you emphasized that we're working with basic laws of physics.

He was obsessed with finding a single theory that would unify all the fundamental forces of nature.

Do you think there exists a unified theory of grappling where you can boil everything down to just a few principles?

Well, first off, if Einstein wasn't able to come up with the unified theory, I would sincerely question my ability to go that way.

But do I believe that something like that could potentially exist?

And I think that even if it doesn't, a belief in the possibility of it and the search for it would leave you better off than where you started.

Whereas if I was, ah no, no, that's bullshit, that would never...

Even if I'm right, because I didn't look, there's certain things I won't learn.

So I think, you know, a lot of times just, let's say alchemy, the idea that you're gonna turn lead to gold all right well that's a little bit nuts but who knows maybe that's that kind of nutty and you know on highly unlikely of highly unlikely probability of success pursuit yielded scientific progress elsewhere in the search for that even though again someone would look back and say oh that's stupid who would do that?

Well if you spent years trying to figure it out I guarantee you're gonna learn some other things as well.

So I think that they're at the very least a principle-based approach to grappling is incredibly important.

So what's your process like for learning new details and understanding the principles behind the techniques?

I certainly don't believe that I have like a singular or perfect approach by any stretch of the imagination.

But I guess what I try to do is block out extraneous nonsense.

Like for instance, a lot of people want to talk about 55 details and reasons for something that's going on.

And the reality is that you're clouding your thought process.

For instance, there was a recent, not to get too political, but there was a recent issue where I remember an inmate was executed and they used a new drug and it was painful and oh my god and he died.

Again, that's whether you believe that capital punishment is valid or not, I think there's plenty of arguments against it.

In fact, I think most of the arguments that make sense are against it.

You know, I don't care, that's like, hey Lex, I'm gonna kill you, but don't worry, it's not gonna hurt.

Yeah, it's like, that doesn't make it okay.

I prefer you again if you're gonna kill me I prefer this you don't burn me at the stake, but if someone was like don't worry.

It's not even gonna sting I'm still gonna try to fight you to the death.

I'm absolutely not allowing this to happen if someone wants to say okay hold on Let's go.

Let's cut the bullshit like feely feelings out of here and say, look, forget the pain.

Is there potential for someone having this guy behind bars for political gain?

Like, okay, these are the real reasons that you say, hey, no way on the death penalty.

It has nothing to do with does it hurt or which drug is it or blah-de-blah or is it inhumane.

It's like none of the, if, hey, we're focusing on the wrong thing.

So it reminds me of jujitsu in the same sense.

And again, we're fighting, we're generally speaking, in my opinion, debates that happen in the public arena, they always focus on the wrong dang thing, and always focus on the wrong aspect.

Again, there's 25 good reasons or bad reasons to do almost anything, but generally speaking, people will focus on the hundred other ones that are extraneous and retarded.

So, what I want, I guess what I would say is it reminds me of Jiu-Jitsu or striking.

Like, oh man, Floyd likes to hold his hand this way or that way or the other way.

This person says you land with this knuckle.

And that person says you land with that knuckle.

And in Jiu-Jitsu, it's very, very important that you grip 3 inches up on the lapel and 2 to the right, but Roger Gracie does it like this, but Cabrini says it like this.

Clearly they all work under the right circumstances and don't work under the wrong ones.

And it has nothing to do or very little to do with these other things.

Would you prefer for it to be painless or horrifically painful?

Okay, if it's already a foregone conclusion, death, all right, yeah, now we'll start to talk about the extreme, like whether or not it's gonna sting.

But until we get to that point, hey, let's focus on the, do we, is it even right or do I have the ability or the capacity to do this justifiably okay so that's where you come down to the principles in my opinion and say all right yeah it doesn't matter which knuckle you land with yeah I'm sure it does but it's a hell of a lot less important than 25 other little things that make all of the difference.

And in my experience, a lot of coaches and a lot of people, particularly guys that are trying to bullshit you, we'll focus on 45 little details and, oh, there's 15 details to this technique.

I'm not saying that these details don't matter But just like anything else in life There's a hierarchy because would you say that would you say that happiness and self-actualization is a valuable thing in life?

Yes I would as well And you know what we have the luxury of saying that type of thing because we're sitting at 5050 jiu-jitsu in Falls Church, Virginia And there's no 1 trying to kill us rape us and we are also I know where food is tonight

if you were to walk down if you were to talk to someone like 2,000 years ago I'll be like, how are you feeling?

They would stare at you like, what are you, fucking retarded?

It's like, I'll be satisfied when you get out of my way so I can find some food.

So that's even the deeper question is, are you eating something tonight?

Right, and so it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

When we take care of the base needs first, then we start to work our way up towards self-actualization and this and that.

But until you've got your food, water, shelter, don't tell me about where you're placing your grip.

It's like you're all leaning out and your, you know, your posture is poor and you're out of balance and you wanna tell me your grip, that's like, I'm starving to death, the barbarians are at the gates, but I'm sitting here giving you a philosophy lesson.

Build a better wall, a sharper knife and get some food.

And then we'll cover all the other stuff.

So I think that in my, when it comes to how I approach martial arts in terms of learning as well as teaching, I really try to boil it down to what I feel to be the most important component parts.

And then if I 1 day reach the level of where these tiny details matter, that's fantastic.

Because again, the difference between, you know, the ability to pass, try to pass successfully against a Colbrini or a Rafael Mendes and against a regular run-of-the-mill black belt are you know it does come down to little details but it's also presupposing that you're in proper position that even allow these details to become relevant.

And I think that a lot of times we put the car before the horse and that's problematic.

Are there still, in your opinion, undiscovered positions, submissions, or techniques in Jiu-Jitsu?

I think that what we see as Jiu-Jitsu now, don't get me wrong, the core never changes.

That's why I get a kick out of people that love self-defense arguments.

It's like, bullshit, there's no physical difference in self-defense beyond the fact, yes, you can eye gouge me, though I've never seen anything like that in real life.

That you're crossing a pretty serious psychological line if you're putting your knuckles, you know, your thumb 2 knuckles deep into somebody's eye.

Forget the fact that, you know, that we're legal, moral, other things like that.

There'd probably be some hesitation there.

So anyway, what makes it different is the psychological component and all these other things going on.

Again, people are like, oh, Jiu-Jitsu is really different than MMA.

Physics are different inside of a cage than they are on a mat, and they are out in a field.

Now, if I try to sport grapple you under a non-sport grappling rule set, then I may run myself into trouble.

But that had nothing to do with Jiu Jitsu.

Jiu Jitsu is physics, is proper expression of physics, the same way boxing is, and the same way wrestling is, the same way all of these things are.

So I would say that as long as something adheres to the principles that allow something to be effective and fundamentally sound, that you can do almost anything.

And I think that people will continue, particularly in the Gi, it's gonna get nuts.

Just the level, the amount of things that you can get away with and do and different grips that you can make.

But I'd say what we're looking at right now is going to look only somewhat like what Jiu-Jitsu is going to look like in 30 years.

The same way the Jiu-Jitsu we see now is so much fundamentally better, honestly, and more evolved and adaptive than it was 20 years ago.

And people will swear up and down like, oh, back in the day, it's like back in the day people didn't know how to fight very well, even 20 years ago.

The level of people understanding how to deal with Jiu Jitsu was very reduced.

So you could get away with all sorts of pretty questionable stuff, like sitting in front of someone in close guard and have them not completely kick the shit out of you.

But I think, you know, with particularly the advent of the barren bowl, the 50-50 position, all these different things, which have always existed.

And when that's, I always hesitate to say invent.

Like certain people use it a lot I'd say discover because you could show me I could come up with something.

Let's say Lex You know, you've got a really good straight foot lock I was watching a train last night and I could be doing that in a way that no 1 ever taught me That doesn't mean I invented it because you've been doing it forever But basically it's let's say no 1 showed me the details you were using and I managed to stumble across them.

I discovered them and that was neat, but again none of us have invented a dang thing.

People have had 2 arms and 2 legs for certainly as long as I can remember and probably longer than that.


Speaker 0: In class you emphasized that we're working with basic laws of physics. So I just read Einstein's biography. He was obsessed with finding a single theory that would unify all the fundamental forces of nature. Wow. Do you think there exists a unified theory of grappling where you can boil everything down to just a few principles?

Speaker 1: Well, first off, if Einstein wasn't able to come up with the unified theory, I would sincerely question my ability to go that way. But do I believe that something like that could potentially exist? Absolutely. And I think that even if it doesn't, a belief in the possibility of it and the search for it would leave you better off than where you started. Whereas if I was, ah no, no, that's bullshit, that would never...

And then I don't look. Even if I'm right, because I didn't look, there's certain things I won't learn. So I think, you know, a lot of times just, let's say alchemy, the idea that you're gonna turn lead to gold all right well that's a little bit nuts but who knows maybe that's that kind of nutty and you know on highly unlikely of highly unlikely probability of success pursuit yielded scientific progress elsewhere in the search for that even though again someone would look back and say oh that's stupid who would do that? Well if you spent years trying to figure it out I guarantee you're gonna learn some other things as well. So I think that they're at the very least a principle-based approach to grappling is incredibly important.

Speaker 0: So what's your process like for learning new details and understanding the principles behind the techniques?

Speaker 1: I certainly don't believe that I have like a singular or perfect approach by any stretch of the imagination. But I guess what I try to do is block out extraneous nonsense. Like for instance, a lot of people want to talk about 55 details and reasons for something that's going on. And the reality is that you're clouding your thought process. For instance, there was a recent, not to get too political, but there was a recent issue where I remember an inmate was executed and they used a new drug and it was painful and oh my god and he died.

It was horrible. Again, that's whether you believe that capital punishment is valid or not, I think there's plenty of arguments against it. In fact, I think most of the arguments that make sense are against it. But pain has fuck all to do with it. You know, I don't care, that's like, hey Lex, I'm gonna kill you, but don't worry, it's not gonna hurt.

I mean, don't get me wrong. No, no, it's

Speaker 0: okay then.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, that doesn't make it okay. It's like believe me. I prefer you again if you're gonna kill me I prefer this you don't burn me at the stake, but if someone was like don't worry. It's not even gonna sting I'm still gonna try to fight you to the death. I'm absolutely not allowing this to happen if someone wants to say okay hold on Let's go.

Let's cut the bullshit like feely feelings out of here and say, look, forget the pain. Does this person deserve it? Ah, ah, let's step that back again. Is there a potential for human error? Is there potential for someone having this guy behind bars for political gain?

Like, okay, these are the real reasons that you say, hey, no way on the death penalty. It has nothing to do with does it hurt or which drug is it or blah-de-blah or is it inhumane. It's like none of the, if, hey, we're focusing on the wrong thing. So it reminds me of jujitsu in the same sense. And again, we're fighting, we're generally speaking, in my opinion, debates that happen in the public arena, they always focus on the wrong dang thing, and always focus on the wrong aspect.

Again, there's 25 good reasons or bad reasons to do almost anything, but generally speaking, people will focus on the hundred other ones that are extraneous and retarded. So, what I want, I guess what I would say is it reminds me of Jiu-Jitsu or striking. Like, oh man, Floyd likes to hold his hand this way or that way or the other way. And this guy likes to jab like this. And it's really important.

This person says you land with this knuckle. And that person says you land with that knuckle. And in Jiu-Jitsu, it's very, very important that you grip 3 inches up on the lapel and 2 to the right, but Roger Gracie does it like this, but Cabrini says it like this. Clearly they all work under the right circumstances and don't work under the wrong ones. And it has nothing to do or very little to do with these other things.

Like, hey, does it matter? Again, I'm going to kill you. Would you prefer for it to be painless or horrifically painful? Okay, if it's already a foregone conclusion, death, all right, yeah, now we'll start to talk about the extreme, like whether or not it's gonna sting. But until we get to that point, hey, let's focus on the, do we, is it even right or do I have the ability or the capacity to do this justifiably okay so that's where you come down to the principles in my opinion and say all right yeah it doesn't matter which knuckle you land with yeah I'm sure it does but it's a hell of a lot less important than 25 other little things that make all of the difference.

And in my experience, a lot of coaches and a lot of people, particularly guys that are trying to bullshit you, we'll focus on 45 little details and, oh, there's 15 details to this technique. Okay, that's true. But What are the 2 most important ones? Because hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that these details don't matter But just like anything else in life There's a hierarchy because would you say that would you say that happiness and self-actualization is a valuable thing in life?

Yes I would as well And you know what we have the luxury of saying that type of thing because we're sitting at 5050 jiu-jitsu in Falls Church, Virginia And there's no 1 trying to kill us rape us and we are also I know where food is tonight

Speaker 0: Yeah,

Speaker 1: if you were to walk down if you were to talk to someone like 2,000 years ago I'll be like, how are you feeling? They would stare at you like, what are you, fucking retarded? I'm starving. I'm hungry, that's my issue. Are you satisfied in your life?

It's like, I'll be satisfied when you get out of my way so I can find some food.

Speaker 0: So that's even the deeper question is, are you eating something tonight?

Speaker 1: Right, and so it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When we take care of the base needs first, then we start to work our way up towards self-actualization and this and that. But until you've got your food, water, shelter, don't tell me about where you're placing your grip. It's like you're all leaning out and your, you know, your posture is poor and you're out of balance and you wanna tell me your grip, that's like, I'm starving to death, the barbarians are at the gates, but I'm sitting here giving you a philosophy lesson. It's like, this is retarded.

It doesn't make any sense. Build a better wall, a sharper knife and get some food. And then we'll cover all the other stuff. So I think that in my, when it comes to how I approach martial arts in terms of learning as well as teaching, I really try to boil it down to what I feel to be the most important component parts. And then if I 1 day reach the level of where these tiny details matter, that's fantastic.

Because again, the difference between, you know, the ability to pass, try to pass successfully against a Colbrini or a Rafael Mendes and against a regular run-of-the-mill black belt are you know it does come down to little details but it's also presupposing that you're in proper position that even allow these details to become relevant. And I think that a lot of times we put the car before the horse and that's problematic.

Speaker 0: Are there still, in your opinion, undiscovered positions, submissions, or techniques in Jiu-Jitsu?

Speaker 1: Oh, I would say that there have to be. There absolutely are. I think that what we see as Jiu-Jitsu now, don't get me wrong, the core never changes. Because physics doesn't change. Physics is the same thing.

That's why I get a kick out of people that love self-defense arguments. It's like, bullshit, there's no physical difference in self-defense beyond the fact, yes, you can eye gouge me, though I've never seen anything like that in real life. That you're crossing a pretty serious psychological line if you're putting your knuckles, you know, your thumb 2 knuckles deep into somebody's eye. Forget the fact that, you know, that we're legal, moral, other things like that. It's like, I've never done that before.

I wouldn't do it lightly. There'd probably be some hesitation there. So anyway, what makes it different is the psychological component and all these other things going on. But physically, there's no difference. Again, people are like, oh, Jiu-Jitsu is really different than MMA.

No, it's not. Not in my opinion, not in my experience. It is absolutely not. What are you talking about? Physics are different inside of a cage than they are on a mat, and they are out in a field.

It's exactly the same. Now, if I try to sport grapple you under a non-sport grappling rule set, then I may run myself into trouble. But that had nothing to do with Jiu Jitsu. Jiu Jitsu is physics, is proper expression of physics, the same way boxing is, and the same way wrestling is, the same way all of these things are. So I would say that as long as something adheres to the principles that allow something to be effective and fundamentally sound, that you can do almost anything.

And I think that people will continue, particularly in the Gi, it's gonna get nuts. Just the level, the amount of things that you can get away with and do and different grips that you can make. But I'd say what we're looking at right now is going to look only somewhat like what Jiu-Jitsu is going to look like in 30 years. The same way the Jiu-Jitsu we see now is so much fundamentally better, honestly, and more evolved and adaptive than it was 20 years ago. And people will swear up and down like, oh, back in the day, it's like back in the day people didn't know how to fight very well, even 20 years ago.

The level of people understanding how to deal with Jiu Jitsu was very reduced. So you could get away with all sorts of pretty questionable stuff, like sitting in front of someone in close guard and have them not completely kick the shit out of you. But I think, you know, with particularly the advent of the barren bowl, the 50-50 position, all these different things, which have always existed. They've always existed. And when that's, I always hesitate to say invent.

I don't like the word invent. Like certain people use it a lot I'd say discover because you could show me I could come up with something. Let's say Lex You know, you've got a really good straight foot lock I was watching a train last night and I could be doing that in a way that no 1 ever taught me That doesn't mean I invented it because you've been doing it forever But basically it's let's say no 1 showed me the details you were using and I managed to stumble across them. I didn't invent those details. I discovered them and that was neat, but again none of us have invented a dang thing.

People have had 2 arms and 2 legs for certainly as long as I can remember and probably longer than that.

Speaker 0: That's what I hear.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the word. So in the history books. You

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Ryan Hall: Principles of Jiu Jitsu | Take It Uneasy Podcast