Full episode with Dava Newman (Nov 2019): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fI6bYnRgSc
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Dava Newman is the Apollo Program professor of AeroAstro at MIT and the former Deputy Administrator of NASA and has been a principal investigator on four spaceflight missions. Her research interests are in aerospace biomedical engineering, investigating human performance in varying gravity environments. She has developed a space activity suit, namely the BioSuit, which would provide pressure through compression directly on the skin via the suit's textile weave, patterning, and materials rather than with pressurized gas.

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So you've done a lot of exciting research, design, engineering on spacesuits.

What does the spacesuit of the future look like?

Well, if I have anything to say about it, it'll be a very tight-fitting suit.

We use mechanical counterpressure to pressurize right directly on the skin.

We're still at the research and development stage.

We don't have a flight system, but technically it's feasible.

What materials do we need to pressurize someone?

That's what our patents are in, the patterning, kind of how we apply this, it's a third of an atmosphere.

Just to sort of take a little step back, you have this incredible bio suit where it's tight fitting, so it allows more mobility and so on.

So maybe even to take a bigger step back, like what are the functions that a space suit should perform?

The spacesuit is the world's smallest spacecraft.

So I really, that's the best definition I can give you.

Right now we fly gas pressurized suits, but think of developing and designing an entire spacecraft.

So then you take all those systems and you shrink them around a person, provide them with oxygen debris, scrub out their carbon dioxide, make sure they have pressure, they need a pressure environment to live in.

So really the space suit is a shrunken spacecraft in its entirety, has all the same systems.

So you really, thermal control, little bit of radiation, not so much radiation protection, but thermal control, humidity, oxygen debris, so all those life support systems as well as the pressure production.

So it's an engineering marvel, the spacesuits that have flown because they really are entire spacecraft that is small spacecraft that we have around a person, but they're very massive, but 140 kilos the current suit, and they're not mobility suits.

So since we're going back to the moon and Mars, we need a planetary suit, We need a mobility suit.

So that's where we've kind of flipped the design paradigm.

I study astronauts, I study humans in motion, and if we can map that motion, I wanna give you full flexibility, move your arms and legs.

I really want you to be like a Olympic athlete, an extreme explorer.

I don't wanna waste any of your energy, so we take it from the human design.

So I take a look at humans, we measure them, we model them, and then I say, okay, can I put a spacesuit on them that goes from the skin out?

So rather than a gas pressurized shrinking that space craft around the person, say here's how humans perform, Can I design a spacesuit literally from the skin out?

And that's what we've come up with, mechanical counterpressure, some patterning.

And that way it could be order of magnitude less in terms of the mass, and it should provide maximum mobility for Moon or Mars.

Like how the heck can you even begin to create something that's tight fitting?

And still doesn't protect you from the elements and so on and the whole, the pressure thing.

So you can either put someone in a balloon, that's 1 way to do it, that's conventional, that's the only

It's only a third of an atmosphere to keep someone alive.

So much less than the pressure that's on earth.

You can still keep a human alive with 0.3 and it's alive and happy.

Do you need here, we're having this chat and we're both, we're at 1 sea level in Boston, at 1 atmosphere.

If you put a suit, if we put someone to a third of an atmosphere, so for mechanical counter pressure now, so 1 way is to do it with a balloon, and that's what we currently have.

Or you can apply the pressure directly to the skin.

I only have to give you a third of an atmosphere.

Right now, you and I are very happy in 1 atmosphere.

So if I put that pressure, a third of an atmosphere on you, I just have to do it consistently across all of your body and your limbs, and it'll be a gas pressurized helmet.

It doesn't make sense to shrink wrap the head.

That's a great act, but we don't need to.

There's no benefits of shrink wrapping the head.

You put a gas pressurized helmet because the helmet then, the future of suits you asked me about, the helmet just becomes your information portal.

So it will have augmented reality, it'll have all the information you need, should have the maps that I need, I'm on the moon, okay, well, hey, smart helmet, then show me the map, show me the topography, Hopefully it has the lab embedded too.

If it has really great cameras, maybe I can see with that regolith.

So the helmet then really becomes this information portal is how I see kind of the IT architecture of the helmet is really allowing me to use all of my modalities of an explorer that I'd like to.

So cameras, voiceover, images, if it were really good, it would kind of be, would have lab capabilities as well.

Okay, so the pressure comes from the body, comes from the mechanical pressure, which is fascinating.

Now, what aspect, when I look at BioSuite, just the suits you're working on, sort of from a fashion perspective, they look awesome.

Oh, absolutely, because the teams that we work with, of course, I'm an engineer, there's engineering students, there's design students, there's architects, so it really is very much a multidisciplinary team, so sure, colors, aesthetics, materials, all those things we pay attention to, so it's not just an engineering solution, it really is a much more holistic, it's a suit, it's a suit, you're dressed in a suit now, it's a form fitting.

So we really have to pay attention to all those things.

And so that's the design team that we work with and my partner, Guitradi, we're partners in this in terms of he comes from an architecture, industrial design background.

So bringing those skills to bear as well.

We team up with industry folks who are in, athletic performance and designers.

So it really is a team that brings all those skills together.

So what role does the spacesuit play in our long-term staying in Mars, sort of exploring the, doing all the work that astronauts do, but also perhaps civilians 1 day almost like taking steps towards colonization of Mars.

So you always need a life support system, pressurized habitat, And I like to say, we're not going to Mars to sit around.

Even if you land and have the lander, you're not going there to stay inside.

We're going there to search for the evidence of life.

So for me, the suit is the best way to give the human mobility.

So for me, exploration is always a suite of explorers.

Some people are going to, some of the suite of explorers are humans, but Many are going to be robots, smart systems, things like that.

But I look at it as kind of all those capabilities together make the best exploration team.


Speaker 0: So you've done a lot of exciting research, design, engineering on spacesuits. What does the spacesuit of the future look like?

Speaker 1: Well, if I have anything to say about it, it'll be a very tight-fitting suit. We use mechanical counterpressure to pressurize right directly on the skin. Seems that it's technically feasible. We're still at the research and development stage. We don't have a flight system, but technically it's feasible.

So we do a lot of work in the materials. What materials do we need to pressurize someone? What's the patterning we need? That's what our patents are in, the patterning, kind of how we apply this, it's a third of an atmosphere.

Speaker 0: Just to sort of take a little step back, you have this incredible bio suit where it's tight fitting, so it allows more mobility and so on. So maybe even to take a bigger step back, like what are the functions that a space suit should perform?

Speaker 1: Sure, so start from the beginning. The spacesuit is the world's smallest spacecraft. So I really, that's the best definition I can give you. Right now we fly gas pressurized suits, but think of developing and designing an entire spacecraft. So then you take all those systems and you shrink them around a person, provide them with oxygen debris, scrub out their carbon dioxide, make sure they have pressure, they need a pressure environment to live in.

So really the space suit is a shrunken spacecraft in its entirety, has all the same systems. Communication as well

Speaker 0: probably, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1: Yeah, communications, exactly. So you really, thermal control, little bit of radiation, not so much radiation protection, but thermal control, humidity, oxygen debris, so all those life support systems as well as the pressure production. So it's an engineering marvel, the spacesuits that have flown because they really are entire spacecraft that is small spacecraft that we have around a person, but they're very massive, but 140 kilos the current suit, and they're not mobility suits. So since we're going back to the moon and Mars, we need a planetary suit, We need a mobility suit. So that's where we've kind of flipped the design paradigm.

I study astronauts, I study humans in motion, and if we can map that motion, I wanna give you full flexibility, move your arms and legs. I really want you to be like a Olympic athlete, an extreme explorer. I don't wanna waste any of your energy, so we take it from the human design. So I take a look at humans, we measure them, we model them, and then I say, okay, can I put a spacesuit on them that goes from the skin out? So rather than a gas pressurized shrinking that space craft around the person, say here's how humans perform, Can I design a spacesuit literally from the skin out?

And that's what we've come up with, mechanical counterpressure, some patterning. And that way it could be order of magnitude less in terms of the mass, and it should provide maximum mobility for Moon or Mars.

Speaker 0: What's mechanical counterpressure? Like how the heck can you even begin to create something that's tight fitting? So. And still doesn't protect you from the elements and so on and the whole, the pressure thing.

Speaker 1: That's the challenge. It's a big design challenge. We've been working on it for a while. So you can either put someone in a balloon, that's 1 way to do it, that's conventional, that's the only

Speaker 0: thing we've ever done.

Speaker 1: That's a gas pressurized suit. So put someone in a balloon. It's only a third of an atmosphere to keep someone alive. So that's what the current system is. So depending on what units you think, in

Speaker 0: 30

Speaker 1: kilopascals, you know, 4.3 pounds per

Speaker 0: square inch. So much less than the pressure that's on earth. You can still keep a human alive with 0.3 and it's alive and happy.

Speaker 1: Alive and happy. And you know, you mix the gases. Do you need here, we're having this chat and we're both, we're at 1 sea level in Boston, at 1 atmosphere. But a suit.

Speaker 0: Oxygen and nitrogen.

Speaker 1: Oxygen and nitrogen. If you put a suit, if we put someone to a third of an atmosphere, so for mechanical counter pressure now, so 1 way is to do it with a balloon, and that's what we currently have. Or you can apply the pressure directly to the skin. I only have to give you a third of an atmosphere. Right now, you and I are very happy in 1 atmosphere.

So if I put that pressure, a third of an atmosphere on you, I just have to do it consistently across all of your body and your limbs, and it'll be a gas pressurized helmet. It doesn't make sense to shrink wrap the head.

Speaker 0: I've seen

Speaker 1: the Blue Man Group. That's a great act, but we don't need to. There's no benefits of shrink wrapping the head. You put a gas pressurized helmet because the helmet then, the future of suits you asked me about, the helmet just becomes your information portal. So it will have augmented reality, it'll have all the information you need, should have the maps that I need, I'm on the moon, okay, well, hey, smart helmet, then show me the map, show me the topography, Hopefully it has the lab embedded too.

If it has really great cameras, maybe I can see with that regolith. That's just lunar dust and dirt. What's that made out of? We talked about the water. So the helmet then really becomes this information portal is how I see kind of the IT architecture of the helmet is really allowing me to use all of my modalities of an explorer that I'd like to.

So cameras, voiceover, images, if it were really good, it would kind of be, would have lab capabilities as well.

Speaker 0: Okay, so the pressure comes from the body, comes from the mechanical pressure, which is fascinating. Now, what aspect, when I look at BioSuite, just the suits you're working on, sort of from a fashion perspective, they look awesome. Is that a small part of it too?

Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, because the teams that we work with, of course, I'm an engineer, there's engineering students, there's design students, there's architects, so it really is very much a multidisciplinary team, so sure, colors, aesthetics, materials, all those things we pay attention to, so it's not just an engineering solution, it really is a much more holistic, it's a suit, it's a suit, you're dressed in a suit now, it's a form fitting. So we really have to pay attention to all those things. And so that's the design team that we work with and my partner, Guitradi, we're partners in this in terms of he comes from an architecture, industrial design background. So bringing those skills to bear as well. We team up with industry folks who are in, athletic performance and designers.

So it really is a team that brings all those skills together.

Speaker 0: So what role does the spacesuit play in our long-term staying in Mars, sort of exploring the, doing all the work that astronauts do, but also perhaps civilians 1 day almost like taking steps towards colonization of Mars. What role does a spacesuit play there?

Speaker 1: So you always need a life support system, pressurized habitat, And I like to say, we're not going to Mars to sit around. So you need a suit. Even if you land and have the lander, you're not going there to stay inside. That's for darn sure. We're going there to search for the evidence of life.

That's why we're going to Mars. So you need a lot of mobility. So for me, the suit is the best way to give the human mobility. We're always still going to need rovers. We're going to need robots.

So for me, exploration is always a suite of explorers. Some people are going to, some of the suite of explorers are humans, but Many are going to be robots, smart systems, things like that. But I look at it as kind of all those capabilities together make the best exploration team.

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Dava Newman: Space Suit of the Future