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Judea Pearl is a professor at UCLA and a winner of the Turing Award, that's generally recognized as the Nobel Prize of computing. He is one of the seminal figures in the field of artificial intelligence, computer science, and statistics. He has developed and championed probabilistic approaches to AI, including Bayesian Networks and profound ideas in causality in general. These ideas are important not just for AI, but to our understanding and practice of science. But in the field of AI, the idea of causality, cause and effect, to many, lies at the core of what is currently missing and what must be developed in order to build truly intelligent systems. For this reason, and many others, his work is worth returning to often.

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If you think we can, can we talk about your son?

The story is known, he was abducted in Pakistan by Al-Qaeda driven sect and under various pretenses.

I don't even pay attention to what the pretense was.

Originally they wanted to have the United States deliver some promised airplanes.

It was all made up, all these demands were bogus.

I don't know really, but eventually he was executed in front of a camera.

At the core of that is hate and intolerance.

We don't really appreciate the depth of the hate at which billions of peoples are educated.

I just listened recently to what they teach you in Mogadishu.

When the water stop in the tap, we knew exactly who did it, the Jews.

We didn't know how, but we knew who did it.

And the education, the indoctrination is really what creates evil.

If you are indoctrinated sufficiently long and in depth, you are capable of ISIS, you are capable of Nazism.

But the question is whether we, after we have gone through some Western education and we learn that everything is really relative, that there's no absolute God, there's only a belief in God, Whether we are capable now of being transformed under certain circumstances to become brutal.

That is a, I'm worried about it because some people say yes, given the right circumstances, given the economical, bad economical crisis, you are capable of doing it too.

So 7 years after Daniel's death, he wrote an article at the Wall Street Journal titled Daniel Pearl and the Normalization of Evil.

What was your message back then and how did it change today over the years?

The message was that we are not treating terrorism as a taboo.

We are treating it as a bargaining device that is accepted.

People have grievance and they go and bomb restaurants.

Look, you're even not surprised when I tell you that.

For grievance you go and blow a restaurant?

And we have created that to ourselves by normalizing, by making it part of political life.

Every terrorist yesterday becomes a freedom fighter today and tomorrow it becomes a terrorist again, it's switchable.

And so we should call out evil when there's evil.

Yeah, if we want to separate good from evil, that's 1 of the first things that, what was it, in the Garden of Eden, remember the first thing that God tells him, was hey, you want some knowledge, here's a tree of good and evil.

So this evil touched your life personally.

Does your heart have anger, sadness, or is it hope?

I see some beautiful people coming from Pakistan.

But I see horrible propagation of evil in this country too.

It shows you how populistic slogans can catch the mind of the best intellectuals.

He had a sense of balance that I didn't have.

He was not as emotional as I am, more looking things in perspective, he really liked every person.

He really grew up with the idea that a foreigner is a reason for curiosity, not for fear.

This 1 time we went in Berkeley and homeless came out from some dark alley and said, hey man, can you spare a dime?

I retreated back, you know, 2 feet back, and then I just hugged him and say, here's a dime, enjoy yourself.

Maybe you want some money to take a bus or whatever.


Speaker 0: If you think we can, can we talk about your son?

Speaker 1: Yes, yes.

Speaker 0: Can you tell his story?

Speaker 1: A story? Daniel? The story is known, he was abducted in Pakistan by Al-Qaeda driven sect and under various pretenses. I don't even pay attention to what the pretense was. Originally they wanted to have the United States deliver some promised airplanes.

It was all made up, all these demands were bogus. I don't know really, but eventually he was executed in front of a camera.

Speaker 0: At the core of that is hate and intolerance.

Speaker 1: At the core, yes, absolutely, yes. We don't really appreciate the depth of the hate at which billions of peoples are educated. We don't understand it. I just listened recently to what they teach you in Mogadishu. When the water stop in the tap, we knew exactly who did it, the Jews.

Speaker 0: The Jews.

Speaker 1: We didn't know how, but we knew who did it. We don't appreciate what it means to us. The depth is unbelievable profound. Do you

Speaker 0: think all of us are capable of evil? And the education, the indoctrination is really what creates evil.

Speaker 1: Absolutely we are capable of evil. If you are indoctrinated sufficiently long and in depth, you are capable of ISIS, you are capable of Nazism. Yes, we are. But the question is whether we, after we have gone through some Western education and we learn that everything is really relative, that there's no absolute God, there's only a belief in God, Whether we are capable now of being transformed under certain circumstances to become brutal. Yeah.

That is a, I'm worried about it because some people say yes, given the right circumstances, given the economical, bad economical crisis, you are capable of doing it too. That worries me. I want to believe it, I'm not capable.

Speaker 0: So 7 years after Daniel's death, he wrote an article at the Wall Street Journal titled Daniel Pearl and the Normalization of Evil. Yes. What was your message back then and how did it change today over the years? I lost.

Speaker 1: What was the message? The message was that we are not treating terrorism as a taboo. We are treating it as a bargaining device that is accepted. People have grievance and they go and bomb restaurants. It's normal.

Look, you're even not surprised when I tell you that.

Speaker 0: 20

Speaker 1: years ago you say, what? For grievance you go and blow a restaurant? Today it's becoming normalized. The banalization of evil. And we have created that to ourselves by normalizing, by making it part of political life.

It's a political debate. Every terrorist yesterday becomes a freedom fighter today and tomorrow it becomes a terrorist again, it's switchable.

Speaker 0: And so we should call out evil when there's evil.

Speaker 1: If we don't want to be part of it. Become it. Yeah, if we want to separate good from evil, that's 1 of the first things that, what was it, in the Garden of Eden, remember the first thing that God tells him, was hey, you want some knowledge, here's a tree of good and evil.

Speaker 0: So this evil touched your life personally. Does your heart have anger, sadness, or is it hope?

Speaker 1: I see some beautiful people coming from Pakistan. I see beautiful people everywhere. But I see horrible propagation of evil in this country too. It shows you how populistic slogans can catch the mind of the best intellectuals.

Speaker 0: Today is Father's Day.

Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Yeah. I heard it.

Speaker 0: What's a fond memory you have of Daniel?

Speaker 1: Oh, many good memories. Immense. He was my mentor. He had a sense of balance that I didn't have. He saw the beauty in every person.

He was not as emotional as I am, more looking things in perspective, he really liked every person. He really grew up with the idea that a foreigner is a reason for curiosity, not for fear. This 1 time we went in Berkeley and homeless came out from some dark alley and said, hey man, can you spare a dime? I retreated back, you know, 2 feet back, and then I just hugged him and say, here's a dime, enjoy yourself. Maybe you want some money to take a bus or whatever.

Where did he get it? Not from me. To get it, not for me. You

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Judea Pearl: Daniel Pearl | AI Podcast Clips