Lisa Feldman Barrett is a neuroscientist, psychologist, and author. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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EPISODE LINKS:
Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain (book): https://amzn.to/2Sp5ar9
How Emotions Are Made (book): https://amzn.to/2GwAFg6
Lisa's Twitter: https://twitter.com/LFeldmanBarrett
Lisa's Website: https://lisafeldmanbarrett.com/

PODCAST INFO:
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Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
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Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41

OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
2:10 - Falling in love
19:54 - Love at first sight
34:32 - Romantic
38:32 - Writing process
49:15 - Evolution of the human brain
1:03:24 - Nature of evil
1:12:07 - Love is an evolutionary advantage
1:16:43 - Variation in species
1:22:24 - Does evolution have a direction?
1:40:03 - Love with an inanimate object
1:44:21 - Just be yourself is confusing advice
1:54:32 - Consciousness
2:01:10 - Book recommendations

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The following is a conversation with Lisa Feldman Barrett, her second time on the podcast.

She's a neuroscientist at Northeastern University and 1 of my favorite people.

Her new book called 7 and a Half Lessons About the Brain is out now as of a couple of days ago, so you should definitely support Lisa by buying it and sharing with friends if you like it.

It's a great short intro to the human brain.

Quick mention of each sponsor, followed by some thoughts related to the episode.

Athletic greens, the all-in-one drink that I start every day with to cover all my nutritional bases, 8 sleep, a mattress that cools itself and gives me yet another reason to enjoy sleep, masterclass, online courses that I enjoy from some of the most amazing people in history and better help, online therapy with a licensed professional.

Please check out these sponsors in the description to get a discount and to support this podcast.

As a side note, let me say that Lisa, just like Manolis Kellis, is a local brilliant mind and friend and someone I can see talking to many more times.

Sometimes it's fun to talk to a scientist, not just about their field of expertise, but also about random topics, even silly ones, from love to music to philosophy.

Ultimately, it's about having fun, something I know nothing about.

It may not always work, but it's worth a shot.

I think it's valuable to alternate along all kinds of dimensions, like between deeper technical discussions and more fun random discussion.

From liberal thinker to conservative thinker, from musician to athlete, from CEO to junior engineer, from friend to stranger.

Variety makes life and conversation more interesting.

Let's see where this little podcast journey goes.

If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review the 5 Stars on Apple Podcast, follow on Spotify, support on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

And now, here's my conversation with Lisa Feldman Barrett.

Based on the comments in our previous conversation, I think a lot of people would be very disappointed, I should say, to learn that you are in fact married.

As they say, all the good ones are taken.

Okay, so I'm a fan of your husband as well, Dan.

He's a programmer, a musician, so a man after my own heart.

Can I ask a ridiculously over romanticized question of when did you first fall in love with Dan?

It's actually, it's a really romantic story, I think.

And I was in my first academic job, which was Penn State University, which is in the middle of Pennsylvania, surrounded by mountains.

So you have, it's 4 hours to get anywhere, to get to Philadelphia, New York, Washington.

I mean, you're basically stuck, you know?

And I was very fortunate to have a lot of other assistant professors who were hired at the same time as I was, so there were a lot of us, we were all friends, which was really fun, but I was single, and I didn't wanna date a student, and there were no, and I wasn't gonna date somebody in my department, that's just a recipe for disaster.

whatever you were, you were already wise enough to know that.

Yeah, I wouldn't call me wise at that age.

But anyways, not sure that I would say that I'm wise now.

And so, after, you know, I was spending probably 16 hours a day in the lab because it was my first year and as an assistant professor and there's a lot to do.

And I was also bitching and moaning to my friends that I hadn't had sex in I don't know how many months and I was starting to become unhappy with my life.

And I think at a certain point, they just got tired of listening to me bitch and moan and said, just do something about it then, like do, you know, if you're unhappy.

And so the first thing I did was I made friends with a sushi chef in town.

And this is like a State College, Pennsylvania in the early nineties was there was like a pizza shop and a sub shop and actually a very good bagel shop and 1 good coffee shop and maybe 1 nice restaurant.

I mean, there was really, but there was the second son of a Japanese sushi chef who was not going to inherit the restaurant.

And so he moved to Pennsylvania and was giving sushi lessons.

So I met this guy, the sushi chef, and we decided to throw a sushi party at the coffee shop.

So we basically, it was the goal was to invite every eligible bachelor really within like a 20 mile radius.

I wore an awesome crushed velvet burgundy dress.

And I didn't meet any, I met a lot of new friends, but I did not meet anybody.

So then I thought, okay, well, maybe I'll try the personals ads, which I had never used before in my life.

And I first tried the paper personals ads.

And then a friend of mine said, oh, you know, there's this thing called Net News.

So there was this anonymous, you could do it anonymously.

So You would read, you could post or you could read ads and then respond to an address which was anonymous that was yoked to somebody's real address.

And there was always a lag because it was this, like a bulletin board sort of thing.

So at first I read them over and I decided to respond to 1 or 2.

But it takes, there's a delay of a couple days or whatever

There's no pictures, the web doesn't exist.

But the ratio of men to women was like 10 to 1.

I mean, there were many more men because it was basically academics and the government.

That was no, I mean, I think AOL maybe was just starting to become popular.

And so the first person I met told me that he was a scientist who worked for NASA.

Anyways, it turned out that he didn't, actually.

Yeah, this is how they brag, is you elevate your, as opposed to saying you're taller than you are, you say your position is higher.

Yeah, and I actually, I would have been fine dating somebody who wasn't a scientist.

It's just that whoever I date has to just accept that I am and that I was pretty ambitious and was trying to make my career.

I think it's maybe more common now for men to maybe accept that in their female partners, but at that time, not so common.

And so then the next 1 I actually corresponded with, and we actually got to the point of talking on the phone, and we had this really kind of funny conversation where we're chatting and he said, he introduces the idea that he's really looking for a dominant woman.

And I'm thinking, I'm a psychologist by training, so I'm thinking, oh, he means sex roles.

I'm like, no, I'm very assertive and I'm glad you think that.

Anyways, long story short, that's not really what he meant.

Yeah, so, and I just, you know, that will just show you my level of naivete.

Like I was like, I didn't completely understand.

At 1 point he asked me how I felt about him wearing my lingerie.

And I was like, I don't even share my lingerie with my sister.

Like, I don't share my lingerie with anybody, you know?

The third 1 I interacted with was a banker who lived in Singapore.

And that conversation didn't last very long because he made an analogy between me and a character in the fountainhead, the woman who's raped in the fountainhead, and I was like, okay, that's not.

That's not a good, no, that's not a good 1.

And so I did, I posted, well, first I wrote my ad, and then I, of course, I checked it with my friends who were all also assistant professors, they were like my little Greek chorus.

And then I posted it, and I got something like, I don't know, 80-something responses in 24 hours.

Like how you, I guess, condensed yourself?

I don't remember it exactly, although Dan has it.

But actually for our 20th wedding anniversary, he took our exchanges and he printed them off and put them in a leather-bound book for us to read, which was really sweet.

I'm almost 30, I'm a scientist, I'm looking for something serious.

But the thing is, I forgot to say where my location was and my age, which I forgot.

So I printed off all of the responses and I had all my friends over and we were, you know, had a big, I made a big pot of gumbo and we drank through several bottles of wine reading these responses.

And I would say for the most part, they were really sweet, like earnest and genuine, as much as you could tell that somebody's being genuine.

I mean, it seemed, you know, there were a couple of really funky ones, like, you know, this 1 couple who told me that I was their soulmate, the 2 of them, then they were looking for, you know, a third person, and I was like, okay.

But mostly super, seemed like super genuine people.

And so I chose 5 men to start corresponding with and I was corresponding with them.

And then about a week later, I get this other email.

And okay, and then I post something the next day that said, okay, thank you so much.

But then after that, I said, okay, and I'm not gonna answer anymore.

Because they were still coming in and I couldn't, I have a job and a house to take care of and stuff.

And he just describes himself like, I'm this, I'm this, I'm this, I'm a chef, I'm a scientist, I'm a this, I'm a this.

And so I emailed him back and I said, you know, you seem interesting, you can write me at my actual address if you want, here's my address.

I'm not really responding, I'm not really responding to other people anymore, but you seem interesting, you know, you can write to me if you want.

And then he wrote to me and I then I wrote him back and I it was it was a nondescript kind of email and I wrote him back and I said thanks for responding you know I'm really busy right now I'm I was in the middle of writing my first slate of grant applications so I was really consumed and I said I'll get back to you in a couple of days.

And so I did, I waited a couple of days till my grants were, you know, safe, grant applications safely out the door.

And then I emailed him back, And then he emailed me, and then really across 2 days, we sent 100 emails.

And text only, was there pictures, anything of that?

And then, so this was like a Thursday and a Friday, And then Friday he said, let's talk on the weekend on the phone.

And he wanted to talk Sunday night and I had a date Sunday night.

And then I was like, well, you know, I don't really want to cancel my date, so I'm just gonna call him on Saturday.

So I just called, I cold called him on Saturday and a woman answered.

And she said, sure, can I ask who's calling?

And she went, oh my God, oh my God, I'm just a friend.

I'm just a friend, I just have to tell you, I'm just a friend.

And then he gets on the phone, not high, nice to meet.

The first thing he says to me, she's just a friend.

So I was just so charmed really by the whole thing.

So it was Yom Kippur, it was the Jewish Day of Atonement that was ending and they were baking cookies and going to a break fast.

So people, as you know, fast all day and then they go to a party and they break fast.

So I thought, okay, I'll just cancel my date.

And I stayed home, and we talked for 8 hours.

And basically, it just went on like that.

And then by the end of the week, he flew to State College.

And we'd gone through this whole thing where I'd said, we're going to take it slow.

And then really by, I think we talked like 2 or 3 times, these like really long conversations, and then he said, I'm just gonna fly there.

And then, so of course there's, I don't even know that there were fax machines at that point.

Anyway, so we decide we'll exchange pictures.

So I take my photograph and I give it to my secretary and I say to my secretary.

he goes, okay, I'll send a priority mail.

And then, so I get Dan's photograph in the mail.

And you can see that he's probably somewhere like the Bahamas or something like that.

So clearly what he's done is he's taken a photograph where he's in it with someone else who turned out to be his ex-wife.

He's very appealing to me, very attractive.

And then my photograph doesn't show up and it doesn't show up.

And so 1 day and then 2 days and then he's like, I said, well, I asked my secretary to send a priority.

He's like, I said, I'm like, well, you don't have to come.

We've had like 5 dates, the equivalent of 5 dates practically.

And then, so he's supposed to fly on a Thursday or Friday, I can't remember.

And I get a call like maybe an hour before his flight's supposed to leave.

And I say, and it's just something in his voice, right?

And I say, because at this point, I think I've talked to him for 25 hours, I don't know.

And he's like, well, I'm sure it's not, I'm sure it's your, I'm sure it's just not a good, you know, it's probably not your best.

And I'm like, no, you don't have to come.

And he's like, no, no, I really want to, I'm, you know, I'm getting on the plane.

I'm like, you don't have to get on the plane.

And so I go down to my, I go, I'm in my office, this is happening, right?

So I go downstairs to my, 1 of my closest friends, who's still actually 1 of my closest friends, who is 1 of my colleagues, and Kevin, and I say Kevin, and I go to Kevin, I go, Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, he doesn't like the photograph.

And Kevin's like, well, which photograph did you send?

And I'm like, well, you know, the 1 where we're shooting pool?

I'm like, yeah, but it's the only 1 that I had that was like where my hair was kind of similar to what it is now.

And he's like, Lisa, do I have to check everything for you?

He was in graduate school at Amherst, at UMass Amherst.

So he flew and I picked him up at the airport and he was happy.

And I was dressed, you know, I carefully, carefully dressed.

Because I don't really believe in fate, and I don't really think there's only 1 person that you can be with.

But I think, Some people are curvy, they're kind of complicated, and so the number of people who fit them is maybe less than.

I like it, mathematically speaking, yeah.

And so when I was going to pick him up at the airport, I was thinking, well, I could be going to pick up the person I'm gonna marry or not.

I mean, like I really, but I really, you know, like our conversations were just very authentic and very moving and we really connected.

And I really felt like he understood me, actually, in a way that a lot of people don't.

And what was really nice was at the time, you know, the airport was this tiny little airport out in a cornfield basically.

And so driving back to the town, we were in the car for 15 minutes completely in the dark as I was driving.

And so it was very similar to, we had just spent 20 something hours on the telephone, sitting in the dark, talking to each other.

And we basically spent the whole weekend together and you met all my friends and we had a big party and at the end of the weekend, I said, okay, if we're gonna give this a shot, we probably shouldn't see other people.

But I just didn't see how it would work if we were dating people locally and then also seeing each other at a distance.

Because I've had long distance relationships before and they're hard and they take a lot of effort.

And so we decided we'd give it 3 months and see what happened and that was it.

Like we're all, what is it, there's several billion of us and we're kind of roaming this world, and then you kind of stick together, you find somebody that just like gets you.

And it's interesting to think about, there's probably thousands if not millions of people that would be sticky to you, depending on the curvature of your space.

But what is the, could you speak to the stickiness, like to the, just the falling in love, like seeing that somebody really gets you?

Maybe by way of telling, do you think, do you remember there was a moment when you just realized, damn it, I think I'm, like, I think this is the guy, I think I'm in love.

We were having these conversations, actually, from the, really from the second weekend we were together.

So he flew back the next weekend to State College because my birthday, it was my 30th birthday, my friends were throwing me a party and we went hiking and we hiked up some mountain and we were sitting on a cliff over this you know overlook and talking to each other and I was thinking and I actually said to him like I haven't really known you very long, but I feel like I'm falling in love with you, which can't possibly be happening.

Like I don't believe in love at first sight, so this can't really be happening, but it sort of feels like it is." And he was like, I know what you mean.

And so for the first 3 months or 4 months, we would say things to each other like, I feel like I'm in love with you, but you know, but that can't, But things don't really work like that.

And then it became a joke, like, I feel like I'm in love with you.

And then eventually, I think that was 1 moment where we were talking about, not just all the great aspirations you have or all the things, but also things you don't like about yourself, things that you're worried about, things that you're scared of.

And then I think that was sort of solidified the relationship.

And then there was 1 weekend where we went to Maine in the winter, which I mean, I really love the beach always, but in the winter, particularly.

Because it's just beautiful and calm and whatever.

Yeah, and I also, I do find beauty in starkness sometimes.

Like, so there's this grand majestic scene of, you know, this very powerful ocean and it's all these like beautiful blue grays and it's just it's just stunning and so we were sitting on this huge rock in Maine and where we had gone for the weekend it was freezing cold and I honestly can't remember what he said or what I said or what, but I definitely remember having this feeling of I absolutely want to stay with this person, and I don't know what my life will be like if I'm not with this person.

Can we, from a scientific and a human perspective, dig into your belief that love at first sight is not possible, you don't believe in it?

Because you don't think there's like a magic where you see somebody in the Jack Kerouac way, and you're like, wow, that's something.

Oh, I definitely think you can connect with someone in an instance.

And I definitely think you can say, oh, there's something there and I'm really clicking with that person.

Romantically, but also just with friends, it's possible to do that.

You recognize a mind that's like yours or that's compatible with yours.

There are ways that you feel like you're being understood or that you understand something about this person or maybe you see something in this person that you find really compelling or intriguing.

But I think, you know, your brain is predictive organ, right?

You're using your past to make predictions and I mean, not deliberately, that's how your brain is wired, that's what it does.

And so it's filling in all of the gaps that you, you know, there are lots of gaps of information that you don't, you know, information you don't have.

I mean, to some extent, sure, you always, you know, there's research to show that people who are in love always see the best in each other, and they, you know, when there's a negative interpretation or positive interpretation, they choose the positive ones.

There's a little bit of positive illusion there going on.

But I think that when you find somebody who not just appreciates your faults, but loves you for them actually, like maybe even doesn't see them as a fault.

So you have to be honest enough about what your faults are.

So it's easy to love someone for all the things that they, for all the wonderful characteristics they have.

It's harder, I think, to love someone despite their faults or maybe even the faults that they see aren't really faults at all to you.

They're actually something really special.

But isn't that, can't you explain that by saying the brain kind of, like you're projecting, you have a conception of a human being or just a spirit that really connects with you and you're projecting that onto that person and within that framework, all their faults then become beautiful, like little.

Maybe, but you just have to pay attention to the prediction error.

No, but maybe that's what love, like maybe you start ignoring the prediction error.

Well, I think that there's some research that might say that, but that's not my experience, I guess.

But there is some research that says, I mean, there's some research that says you have to have an optimal margin of illusion, which means that you put a positive spin on smaller things but you don't ignore the bigger things, right?

And I think without being judgmental at all, when someone says to me, you're not who I thought you were, I mean, nobody has said that to me in a really long time, but certainly when I was younger, that was, you're not who I thought you were.

My reaction to that was, well, whose fault is that?

I mean, I will though say that in my experience, people don't lie to you about who they are.

And so, you know, you don't wanna get tied up in that, tangled up in that.

And I think from the get-go, Dan and I were just, for whatever reason, maybe it's because we both have been divorced already, and you know, he told me who he thought he was, and He was pretty accurate as far as I could.

I mean, there's very, I can't say that I've ever come across a characteristic in him that really surprised me in a bad way.

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Lisa Feldman Barrett: Love, Evolution, and the Human Brain | Lex Fridman Podcast #140