Saagar Enjeti is a DC-based political correspondent and podcaster. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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Realignment Podcast: https://linktr.ee/esaagar
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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
2:41 - Hitler
7:01 - Evil
8:20 - Donald Trump
18:51 - Teddy Roosevelt
24:12 - Nazi Germany
29:08 - The balance of power in US government
33:04 - Bureaucracy
41:38 - Money
43:54 - UFOs
47:57 - Jeffrey Epstein
1:01:18 - Left and Right
1:12:02 - How to fix politics
1:37:28 - Political predictions
1:50:42 - Journalism
2:01:37 - Joe Rogan
2:09:04 - Lyndon Johnson
2:10:23 - World War I
2:15:15 - Dan Carlin
2:22:09 - How Stalin came to power
2:27:36 - Putin
2:33:47 - Lenin and Stalin
2:37:17 - Book recommendations
2:44:44 - Antarctica and Mars
2:51:59 - Born to Run
2:54:26 - Texas

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The following is a conversation with Sagar Anjati.

He is a DC-based political correspondent, host of the Rising with Crystal Ball, and host of the Realignment podcast with Marshall Kozlov.

He has interviewed Donald Trump 4 times and has interviewed a lot of major political figures and human beings who wield power.

He loves policy and loves history, which makes him a great person to sail through the sometimes stormy waters of political discourse.

He showed up to this conversation with a gift of the second volume of Ian Kershaw's biography on Hitler, a two-volume set that is widely acknowledged as 1 of the greatest, if not the greatest, most definitive studies of Hitler.

Nothing wins my heart faster on a first meeting or a first date than a great book about the darkest aspects of human nature and human history.

I think I started saying that as a joke, but actually there's probably a lot of truth to it.

I love it when we skip the small talk and go straight to the in-depth conversation about the best and worst of human nature.

Quick mention of our sponsors, Jordan Harbinger Show, Grammarly Grammar Assistant, 8 Sleep Self-Cooling Bed, and Magic Spoon Low Carb cereal.

Click the sponsor links to get a discount and to support this podcast.

As a side note, let me say that for better or for worse, I would like to avoid the trap of surface political bickering of the day.

I do find politics fascinating, but not the talking points produced by the industrial engagement complex of red vs.

Instead, I'm fascinated by human beings who seek power, and how power changes them.

I don't have a political affiliation, and my ideas, at least I hope so, are defined more by curiosity and learning in the face of uncertainty, and less by the echo chambers who tell me what I'm supposed to think.

I'm constantly evolving, learning, and doing my best to do so without ego and with empathy.

As far as I'm aware, I do not have any derangement syndromes nor do I get a medical prescription of blue, red, white, or black pills.

If I say something, I say it because I'm genuinely thinking and struggling with the ideas.

I have no agenda, just a bit of a hope to add more love to the world.

If you enjoy this thing, subscribe on YouTube, review it on Apple Podcasts, follow on Spotify, support it on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter at Lex Friedman.

And now, here's my conversation with Sagar Anjati.

There's no better gifts in this world than a book about Hitler, So thank you so much.

I've gotten a gift when I was, what was you talking about?

Flying the watch from Joe Rogan, and this almost beats it.

So tell me what this particular book on Hitler is.

I'm a big book nerd, and I spend a lot of time reading biographies in particular.

So this 1, if you need a 1 volume, Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, right?

I think you talked about that, William Shire, because that's like Hitler's rise, Nazi Germany, the war, et cetera.

But I like bios because it's the, a good biography is story of the times, right?

And so this 1, the first volume, it does exactly that, which is that it doesn't just tell the story of Hitler.

It's the context of poor, you know, this kid in Austria and he's got all these dreams, but then actually pretty courageous in terms of World War 1, right?

Gets pinned a medal on by the Kaiser and then what it's like to have to lose World War 1 and actually like lose this, this stain and then the rise within, everybody knows that story, the Beer Hall Putsch and all that.

This 1 I like, and the reason I like Kershaw is obviously number 1, it's English, which is actually hard, right?

Like in order to write that story, who can do both the primary source material and then translate it for people like us.

But he tells the dynamic story of Hitler so well in the second volume, just like the level of detail.

And you've talked about this, Lex, like what was it like inside that room inside with Chamberlain?

Like what was it like in terms of who was this like magnetic madman who did convince the smartest people in the world at the time?

And you know, up until like 1940, the Soviet gamble, like was it Trump, He took tremendous risks, but like highly calculated, thinking, no, no, no, no, I'm not gonna pay for this 1.

And it put himself, he had a remarkable ability, not just to put himself in the minds of the German people, but in terms of his adversaries.

Like with when he was a cross for Mussolini, Calculate, he's like, how exactly did Mussolini, the guy who created fascism, becomes like second fiddle to Hitler?

And yeah, like Ian Kershaw, along with Richard Evans, 2 of my favorite authors on the Third Reich, no question.

Do you think he was born this way, that charisma, whatever that is, or was it something he developed strategically?

That's like the question you apply to some of the great leaders.

Was he just a madman who had the instinct to be able to control people when in the room together with them?

And, but also there is an innate quality.

I'm forgetting his name, his lifelong, Rudolf, the 1 who flew to Berlin in like 1940.

Anyway, so he helped Hitler write Mein Kampf and he was like slavishly devoted to him in prison.

And so you read that and you're like, well, how does he get this like crank wacko to basically believe he's like the second coming, help him write this book?

I mean, literally, they live together in the prison cell and they wake up every day.

And as he was composing Mein Kampf and because of the Beer Hall Putsch and all that, had this like absolute ability to gather people around him.

I think his greatest skill was, is he was just a very good politician, truly.

I mean, if you look at his ability in order to read coalitional politics and then convince exactly the right people in order to follow him, I think I heard you ask this once and I've thought about it a lot, which is like, who could have stopped Hitler in Germany, right?

It's always like the ever-present question.

Of course, like the whole baby Hitler thing.

Like Hindenburg was the person who could have stopped and had the immense standing within the German public.

The only real like war hero, definitely was personally skeptical of fascism and Nazism.

He was like, yeah, I think this guy is dangerous.

I think this guy could do a lot of damage to the Republic.

But he acceded basically to Hitler at the time.

And I think that he was 1 of the main people who could have done something about it.

And also he was able to convince the generals, the military, I mean, that was very interesting.

And to convince Chamberlain and the other political leaders.

That's something I often think about because we're just reading books about these people.

I think about with like Jeffrey Epstein, for example.

Like evil people, not evil, but people have done evil things.

Let's not go to the Dan Carlin thing of what is evil.

People that do evil things, I wonder what they're like in a room because I know quite a lot of intelligent people that did not see the evil in Jeffrey Epstein and spend time with him and were not bothered by it.

In the same sense, Hitler, it seems like he was able to get, just even before he had power, because people get intoxicated by power and so on.

But even before he had power, he was able to convince people and it's unclear, is there something that's more than words?

It's like the way you, I mean, people talk, tell stories about this piercing look and whatever, all that kind of stuff.

Like that has to be the base floor of any of these charismatic leaders.

You have to be able to, in a room alone, be able to convince anybody of anything.

So I can tell you from my personal experience, 1 of the best educated lessons I got was when I got to meet Trump.

So I interviewed Trump 4 different times as a journalist, spent like 2 and a half hours with him in the Oval Office, not alone, but like me and 1 person and like the press secretary, and that was it.

And as a guy who reads these types of books, right?

And you know, you think of Trump, obviously most people, what they see on television, in articles and more, but being able to observe it like one-on-one, I was closer to him than I am right now from you.

That was 1 of the most educational experiences I got because it's like you just said, the look, the leaning forward, the way he talks, the way he is a master at taking the question and answering exactly which part he wants.

And then if you try and follow up, He's like, excuse me, you know, like he knows.

And then whenever you're talking, it's not that he's annoyed about getting interrupted.

If he realizes he's been marandering and then you interrupt him, all good.

But if he's driving home a point, which he has to make sure appears in your transcript or whatever, It's like, it really was fascinating for me to look at.

And what was also crazy with Trump is I realized how much he was living in the moment.

So like when I went to the Oval, I've read all these biographies and like I walk in and I'm like, holy shit.

Well, you interviewed him in the Oval Office.

In the Oval, every time, was in the Oval Office.

Well, I wasn't scared, I was just, look, it's the Oval Office, right?

I mean, I'm this nerd, he was like this kid.

Like I printed out on my dad's label maker when I was like 7 and I wrote like the Oval Office on my bedroom.

So I was like, you know, a huge nerd, like obviously egomaniacal even from 7.

But So like for this, I mean, it was huge, right?

And like, I walk in there and I see the couch, right?

And I'm like, oh man, like that's Kissinger.

Like, you know, I'm like, that's where like Kissinger and Nixon got on their knees.

And then you see over by the door and you're like, are the scuff marks still there from when Eisenhower used to play golf.

You know, this is all running through my mind.

even the desk, I put my phone on the desk to record,

I'm like, this is the fucking Resolute desk.

Like, I shouldn't put my phone on this thing.

And I'm like, HMS Resolute, you know, all that, you know, national.

And even for him, he doesn't think about any of it.

Like he had this portrait of Andrew Jackson right next to his, to the, I think from on the fireplace, like right here on the right.

And the most revealing question was when I was like, Mr.

President, what are people gonna remember you for in a hundred years?

And he was like, I don't know, like veterans choice.

He like has a list in front of him of like his accomplishments, which is staff.

Yeah, well, I mean, that's what I wanted to know.

And I remember looking at him being like, it's not gonna be better.

You know, I'm like, I'm looking at you, Donald Trump, the harbinger of something new.

And so I realized with these guys and their charisma and more is that they don't think about themselves the way that we think about them.

And that was actually important to understand because a lot of people are like, Trump is playing all this chess.

Like he's truly, 1 time I was interviewing him and he had like a certificate that he had to sign or something on his desk.

He's like, it was like child almost like he got distracted by the, he's like, Oh, what's this?

And I was like, wow, like this, this is the guy like, this is what he is.

Well, I wonder if there was a different person because you were recording than offline at a bar.

Well, here's the thing though, because that's another part of it, because that 2 hours, I would say like half of that was not on the record.

So like whenever he's off the record, he changes completely, Right?

I don't wanna like go into too much of it or whatever, but like he, I mean, he is so mindful of when that camera is on and when the mic is hot in terms of the language that he uses, what he's willing to admit, what he's willing to talk about, how he's willing to even appear in front of his staff.

I think the most revealing thing Trump ever did was there was this press conference like right after he lost the right after the midterm elections in 2018.

President, thank you for doing this press conference.

And he looks at him and he goes, it's called Earn Media.

And he just like had so much disdain for him because he's like, I'm not doing this for you.

So he's really aware of the narratives and story.

I mean, people have talked about that all comes from the tabloid media from New York and so on.

But I've also heard stories of just in private, he's a really, I don't want to overuse the word charismatic, but just like, he is a really interesting, almost like friendly, like a good person.

Like that's what I heard, I've heard actually surprising the same thing about Hillary Clinton.

But like the way they present themselves is perhaps very different than they are as human beings, a one-on-one.

That's something, maybe that's just like a skill thing.

Maybe the way they present themselves in public is actually their, I mean, almost their real self.

And they're just really good in private, one-on-one, to go into this mode of just being really intimate in some kind of human way.

Because I would notice that with Trump, you know, he's like, it's almost like a tour guide.

It was very like, it's very crazy, right?

And he's like, do you guys want anything?

And you're sitting there and you're like, the way he's able to like, like the last time I interviewed him, he wanted to do it outside because he studied himself from all angles and he knows exactly how he looks on a camera and with which lighting.

And so we were supposed to interview him on camera in the Oval Office, which is actually rare.

And they ended up moving it outside at the last minute.

And he came out and he's like, I picked this spot for you.

I was like, you are your own lighting director and president.

But it's like you said, he's very charismatic and friendly.

I mean, look, this is what I mean in terms of the dynamism of these people that gets lost.

Like, I don't think he would want that side of him that I see, you know, that you've seen those off the record moments and more in order to come out, because he's very keen about how exactly he presents to the public.

It's like, you know, even his presidential portrait, everybody usually smiles and he refused to smile.

He was like, I want to look like Winston Churchill.

Do you think he believes that he, what he kind of implies that he is 1 of, if not the greatest presidents in American history?

Like people kind of laugh at this, but there's quite, I mean, there's quite a lot of people, first of all, that make the argument that he's the greatest president in history.

Like, I've heard this argument being made.

And I mean, I don't know what the, first of all, I don't care, like, you can't make an argument that anyone is the greatest.

That's just, I come from a school of like being humble and modest and so on.

It's like even Michael, you can't have that conversation.

Okay, so I like that he's humble enough to say like Abraham Lincoln and whatever.

think he actually believes that or is that something he understands will create news and also perhaps more importantly, piss off a large number of people.

Is he almost like a musician masterfully playing the emotions of the public?

Or does he, or and Does he believe when he looks in the mirror, I'm 1 of the greatest men in history?

And for the reason why is I don't think he knows that much about US history.

And that's what I meant whenever I was in there and I realized he was just Living in the moment.

I don't think he knew all that much about why I mean, this is why was elected in many ways, right?

So I'm not I'm not saying this is a Norbert like I'm not making a judgment with on this I'm just saying I do think in his mind He does think he was 1 of the best Presidents in American history largely because and I encountered this a lot of people work for him which is that they didn't really know all that much kind of about what came before and all that.

And it's not necessarily to hold it against them because for in many ways, that's what they were elected to do or elected to be in many ways.

It's an interesting question whether knowing history, being a student of history is productive or counterproductive.

I tend to assume I really respect people who are deeply like well-read in history, like presidents that are almost like nerd, history nerds, I admire that.

It's not, it's not, you know, I'm just sort of playing devil's advocate to my own beliefs, but it's possible that focusing on the moment and the issues and letting history, it's like first principles thinking, forget the lessons of the past and just focus on common sense reasoning through the problems of today.

In terms of the modern era, I mean, Obama was a student of history.

Like he used to have presidential biographers and people over and I mean, famously, like Robert A.

Carrow, 1 of my favorite presidential biographers, he was invited to have dinner with Obama.

And Obama would like pepper some of his, every time, it was interesting, because he'd try and justify some of the things he didn't do by being like, well, if you look at what they had to do and what I have to deal with, mine's much harder.

So in that way, I was a little pissed off because I'd be like, no, that actually, like you're comparing apples to oranges and all that.

But if you look at Roosevelt, Teddy Roosevelt in particular, this was, I mean, a voracious reader, not of just American history, all history.

The only president who willed himself to greatness, that's like the amazing thing about him.

Like it wasn't, he didn't have the Civil War, he didn't have World War II, he didn't have to found the country, literally, or like, you know, didn't have to stave off that, or he didn't buy the Louisiana Purchase, like all that.

He literally came into a pretty static country, and he could have just governed with, I mean, the person who came before him was assassinated.

Like he easily could have coasted, but he literally willed the country into something more.

And that's always why I focus a lot on him too.

Because I'm like that in many ways, I wouldn't say it's easy to be great during crisis.

But it can bring out the best within you, but it's a whole other level to bring out the best within yourself just for the sake of doing it.

And that's, I think is really interesting.

I'm also a sucker for great speeches because I tend to see the role of the president as in part like inspirer and chief, sort of to be able to, I mean, that's what great leaders do, like CEOs of companies and so on, establish a vision, a clear vision, and like hit that hard.

But the way you establish the vision isn't just like, not to dig at Joe Biden, but like sleepy, boring statements.

You have to sell those statements and you have to do it in a way where everybody's paying attention, everybody's excited.

And that, Teddy Roosevelt was definitely 1 of them.

Obama was, I think, at least early on, I don't know, was incredible at that.

It does feel that the modern political landscape makes it more difficult to be inspirational in a sense because everything becomes bickering and division.

I've talked to Joe about Trump, Joe Rogan, and Joe's not interested in talking to Trump, which is fascinating.

What would you interview Trump on like realignment for example, and do you think it's possible to do A23 hour conversation with him where you will get at something like human or you get at something, like we were talking about the facade he puts forward.

I look, I was a White House correspondent.

I think if that mic is hot, he knows what he's doing.

But do you think he's a different human now after the election?

I don't, I think He's been the same person since 1976.

I studied Trump a lot and I think he's basically been the core of who he is and elements of that.

Ever since he built that, you know, the ice rink in Central Park and got that media attention, that was it.

I still, I feel there's a hope in me that there would be a podcast like Joe Rogan, like a long-form podcast where something could be, you know, and you're actually a really good person to do that, where you can have a real conversation that looks back at the election and reveals something honest, but perhaps he's thinking about running again, and so maybe he'll never let down that guard.

But like, you know, I just love it when there's this switch in people where you start looking back at your life and wanting to tell stories, like trying to extract wisdom and realizing you're in this new phase of life where like the battles have all been fought.

Now you're this old, like former warrior.

And now you can tell the stories of that time.

Like the young warrior he is, he's not in the mode of telling stories.

He's the only president who didn't age while in office.

And this is what I mean, because he lives in the moment.

Actually, yeah, pretty much everybody I think about.

Kennedy, who got much sicker while in office.

The job like weighs on you and makes you physically ill.

Trump was, he's the only person who just, he didn't have to do it.

He almost gotten stronger and he was 1 of the most, like the climate, there's so many people attacking him, So much hatred, so much love and hatred.

And it was just, I mean, it was whatever it was, it was quite masterful and a fascinating study.

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Saagar Enjeti: Politics, History, and Power | Lex Fridman Podcast #167