Yeonmi Park is a North Korean defector, human rights activist, and author of the book In Order to Live. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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EPISODE LINKS:
Yeonmi's Twitter: https://twitter.com/YeonmiParkNK
Yeonmi's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/officialyeonmipark
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In Order to Live (book): https://amzn.to/3wdtKfL

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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
3:58 - Growing up in North Korea
9:22 - Animal Farm
15:37 - Search for meaning
20:25 - Love
22:42 - Language
27:06 - Yeonmi's dad
29:07 - Escaping North Korea
34:24 - The world is ignoring the genocide in North Korea
46:26 - Evil
49:17 - Nuclear war
50:07 - Marxist origins of North Korea 
55:20 - Famine
1:00:07 - Kim Jong-un is pure evil
1:06:43 - Freedom
1:09:55 - Michael Malice
1:13:35 - Diversity
1:20:55 - Political correctness
1:30:27 - Jordan Peterson
1:34:39 - Michael Malice book on North Korea
1:40:08 - Advice for young people
1:43:10 - Facing assassination
1:53:25 - Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse
1:55:57 - Meaning of life

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The following is a conversation with Yeonmi Park, a North Korean defector, human rights activist and author of the book, In Order to Live.

Quick mention of our sponsors, Belcampo, Gala Games, BetterHelp and 8 Sleep.

Check them out in the description to support this podcast.

Let me say a few words about North Korea.

From 1994 to 98, North Korea went through a famine, mass starvation, caused primarily by King Jong-il, who at the time was the new leader of North Korea after his father's death in 1994.

Somewhere between 3600000 people died due to starvation.

From all the stories of famine in history, including my own family history, I've come to understand that hunger tortures the human mind in a way that can break everything we stand for.

In North Korea, during the 90s famine, many were driven to cannibalism.

Imagine more than 10 million people suffering starvation for months and years, always on the brink of death.

We don't know the exact numbers of people who died because the Suffering was done in silence, in darkness, very little information in or out.

Most people had to survive without electricity, without clean water, medical supplies, sanitation, and food.

The North Korean propaganda machine called this the arduous march or the march of suffering.

Words such as famine and hunger were banned because they implied government failure.

Once again, now, in 2021, Kim Jong-un, the current leader of North Korea, is calling for his country to prepare for another arduous march or march of suffering, another period of mass starvation as the country closes its borders.

Looking at atrocities of the past decades and the encroaching atrocity there now, I think about the quiet suffering of millions of North Koreans.

I think about the torture of the human spirit.

I think about a North Korean child who could be a scientist, an artist, a writer, but who instead grows impossibly thin without food, their body slowly rotting away as their parents watch helplessly.

I got emotional in this conversation with Yonmi, in part because I remembered my grandmother who survived Kholodomor, the famine in Ukraine, intentionally created by Stalin, where 4 to 10 million people died and many, many more suffered.

Imagine knowing that if you don't engage in cannibalism, you will die before your children did, and then they will be eaten.

Imagine because of this deciding to murder and eat your own children as many people did.

Imagine the kind of desperation, torture that leads up to a decision like that.

I'm not smart enough to know what evil is, nor where to draw the line between good and evil.

But Stalin, Kim Jong-il, Kim Jong-un are men who in the name of power are willing to make millions of people, of children, suffer and die from starvation.

I rarely have hate in my heart, but I hate these men.

I hate that such men exist in this world.

I hate that the beauty I love about this life exists amidst such unimaginable cruelty.

I have been haunted by this conversation, by memories of my grandmother's pain, but I've also been warmed by memories of her love.

Love gives me hope, Hope for the perseverance of the human spirit, even in the face of evil.

This is the Lex Friedman podcast and here is my conversation with Yeonmi Park.

Can you tell your story from North Korea to today as you describe in your 2015 book and with the extra perspective on life, love and freedom you've gained since then.

So I was born in the Northern part of North Korea initially And my father was a party member, and my mom was housewife.

And I remember born in that country, I never thought I was in an unusual country.

Now I'm thinking of what it is, like literally called the Hermit Kingdom.

But I thought, I believed that I was living in the best country on earth.

It was a socialist paradise, and everybody in the rest of the world worshipped my dear leader.

So I had this enormous pride in my heart and grateful to be in that country.

Yeah, it was all the admiration and gratitude.

It changed lately, but for me was pure, pure like love.

Was there any, like looking back with the perspective you have now, would you describe some of those moments growing up as full of happiness or was that delusion at the time?

So not knowing the alternative, will you still be able to be happy?

The fact that I did not know, Like in North Korea, this is the only country in this 21st century has no internet.

And they don't even know the existence of internet.

So not knowing definitely helped, I think, to be sane.

So as a human being, you're still able to find moments of happiness.

I think my happiness was from family, nothing else.

Even though those, they would keep telling me that they were our source of meaning and happiness.

And like when I was learning propaganda, like, you know, the proud feeling, right?

I'm in the greatest nation here and there, but like actually true happiness came from laughing with my family and my friends.

Are there any childhood memories, pleasant or painful ones that stand out to you now?

I mean, like, you know, whenever I think about my North Korea, the interesting thing is there's no color.

I mean 1 is because North Korean country has no color, right?

We have no fear, so people cut down trees to make food.

So, but only that, like even what we were wearing was like no color.

I've noticed from sort of you now, you have quite an incredible sense of fashion.

So contrast that with your time in North Korea.

Just ways that people could express themselves visually.

There was no word for fashion in North Korea.

We didn't even know, it was not even in our dictionary.

So of course I did not know what Victoria's Secret models, I didn't even know what models were.

So when I came out, I learned the model was a job.

So there's so many jobs that we have here doesn't exist in North Korea.

What was life like in North Korea as compared to the rest of the world?

So maybe you said there's no internet, 24 hour electricity is a luxury you do not have.

I think that's the thing like when people were asking me, can you tell me about like life in North Korea?

And in the past, I was like, I cannot describe it to you.

And initially I thought, oh, because of my English that I cannot find the words.

It's not that it's just different planet.

The common sense that we have doesn't exist there.

Like people literally do not know the concept of romantic love or human rights or liberty.

So when I'm thinking back to my country, it's, you know, like, as You cannot imagine your life on Mars right now.

I grew up, never seen the map of the world.

Like the regime told me that I was Kim Il-sung, the first Kim race.

And then our calendar doesn't begin when Jesus Christ was born.

They didn't teach us about, of course, Christianity or like the Big Bang.

Like our history began when Kim was born.

And it was like different meaning, I mean, feeling of existence.

You know, it's not even like the same life.

I literally think that was almost like my past life.

And this is like a new life that I began.

You're almost like a different human being now.

So you've, I have to say, I often say that my favorite book is Animal Farm by George Orwell.

I've read it I don't know how many times and so I was really happy to hear that that was of the many books, excellent books, that we'll hopefully talk about.

You've mentioned that Animal Farm had a big impact on you.

It was the book that kind of led to a kind of awakening for you.

Maybe can you describe what impact it had?

So after going through what I went through, right, and I arrived in South Korea after many years of journey, They were saying, so Kims were dictators, and South Korea is not colonized by American bastards.

And Americans, first of all, are not bastards.

And then they said everything that you believe in North Korea was a lie.

Then at 15, I was thinking, so if everything that I believe was a lie, how do I know what you're telling me is not a lie?

And I just, it was chaos in belief, right?

And that's the moment, a few years later, I read this book, like Animal Farm, just by mistake.

I was like, okay, I can finish that quickly.

And when they're ending that, like last chapter, right, They could not see between the pigs and humans anymore, like that sentence.

I just understood everything what happened.

I just, it made every sense to me, what happened to me, my people, and to my country.

Yeah, there's so many things I could say about that book.

Yeah, there's a haunting nature to the end, and I guess, spoiler alert, but you should have read this already if you're listening to this.

At the end, the animals were looking to the humans and to the pigs and they couldn't see the difference.

And then there's this kind of gradual transition from the initial revolutionary steps of animals fighting for their freedom to slowly the pigs gaining control went from 4 legs good, 2 legs bad, to 4 legs good, 2 legs better.

2 legs even better, I think, something like that.

So like gradually transitioning the ideology under which the farm operates.

And I think the gradual nature of that where basically you have generations born not knowing how things were in the past.

And that's what makes the most kind of for me haunting transition from freedom to slavery to suffering to injustice all those things

the animals don't know they're part of that.

And also for me personally, I always kind of found a kinship with Boxer the horse because I just, I'm kind of an idiot.

And I just love the idea of working hard for an ideal and the tragic nature of to the end, that horse boxer working his ass off for the pride for others, but yeah, for the pride of the farm, you know?

And then the pigs giving him sort of using that but then just sending him to the slaughterhouse anyway, when he was no longer useful.

I mean, there's so many tragic elements that echo everything I've seen in the Soviet Union, and many of the elements that you see in even harsher, more drastic way in North Korea.

If there's something hopeful you pull from that book, like within the suffering, within the gradual decline, the taking away the freedom, there were still moments of beauty, it seemed like.

It can be, but I think for me it was when I was ending the last page of the book, until that point I was angry towards a dictator.

I was so angry, dreaming of killing him, revenging my father, the people that he cared.

But when I was ending the last chapter, actually everybody was responsible to create this dystopia in my country.

That animals, initial animals, when they're scared, when they see the first execution, And then they were not doing their jobs, speaking out and keep questioning.

They had a question and then as soon as they see a fear, they silence.

Because of that, that's when I was like, my grandma knew Life could be different.

I think the 1 thing about North Koreans are unique is that they don't know they're oppressed They don't know that they are slaves to the dictator and The fact that other people know they're oppressed like in America a lot of people think they are oppressed like you are not oppressed You don't even know the definition of oppression.

And like that's like when the new animals came, the new animals didn't even know what the life could be like.

There's no alternative for them to compare even.

Why didn't they not do anything about it?

They kept it silent and everybody was responsible.

So the people who knew were too afraid to say, and then there's people that just didn't even know.

And I don't know what's more terrifying about human nature.

Looking at this group of people who are afraid to say that things could be otherwise, and then the group of people that don't even know it could be better.

I don't know that's the reason I return to that book often because it's such maybe because it's interesting using animals to represent ideas that were very human.

It almost allows you to explore the darkness of human nature without sort of being broken by it.

When I watch your interviews, you're really calm and collected.

Not just your interviews, Instagram, the way you present yourself.

It seems like you're almost at peace with the world.

Is there in private times when you're just angry, Do you feel fear?

Do you go to dark places, depression, all those kinds of things?

Are you able to put that world that you were in behind you?

It's a joke because I talk about North Korea every single day and I still rescue people like from China and Russia and other countries, right?

And sometimes I'll rescue mission figures and they get captured and sent back.

I still have people in North Korea report to me.

So like when I talked to my sister who chose to not be in this life, activist life, she forgot most of things.

And like for the other hand, I like remember everything.

So sometimes it's a blessing to keep reminded of how, because it's, you know, they say happiness is a relative thing.

I mean, the thing is also people say, because nobody was fooling you when you're growing up, everybody was suffering, you should have been okay, right?

But no, like if you are suffering in that degree, no matter, even if there's no comparison, like if you're in Nazi Germany, in the Holocaust, right, in the concentration camp, I'm sure nobody was better than them.

But now, because I'm in this place, I can compare easily, right?

But it is true, like, I still have days that I cannot get out of bed.

And I'm really hoping, like, that, when it was Elon Musk talking about downloading your brain, blah, blah.

It's like if maybe technology develops that I can download some part of my memory and then I can erase it or delete it and that would be so much better.

This is a, sorry for the tough question, but if I came to you, if Elon came to you and said, we can erase that part of your memory, would you do it?

All other defectors know they do it 100%.

For me, I hesitate because I'm a witness.

So if I delete that part, I don't know how real that can be.

Like, after I talk, give a speech, right?

I mean, I'm fine, but somehow I'm depressed.

Sometimes if the talk was very intense, I'm like depressed for 3 weeks.

Well, there's also the, and there's a guy named Victor Franco who wrote the book, Man's Search for Meaning.

And there's some aspect, so he talks about the Holocaust and that you can, in those moments of suffering, still discover meaning, still discover happiness in the simplest of joys.

Like while starving, a little piece of bread could be a source of incredible joy.

And there's some aspect in which that experience gives you a clarity about the world.

Like somehow experiencing suffering allows you to deeply experience joy and love, and also empathize with the suffering of others.

And it's almost like brings you closer to other humans.

So it's this double-edged sword that the highest of joys sometimes are catalyzed by suffering.

And it's hard to know what to do with that.

You see that with World War II, the stories of soldiers that have suffered, but some of the closest bonds of brotherhood of just pure love was experienced by them.

And it sucks that our brains are like this.

Of course, in my journey, I learned how to survive, right?

But I think most of I was keep learning what it means to be a human being.

I think that was like ultimate thing I was keep learning.

And I still don't know fully what it means.

But I do think it seems like suffering is necessary for people to be grateful and even be joyful too sometimes.

I'm fascinated about love in many aspects.

But you mentioned romantic love was forbidden in North Korea.

What do you think about love now that you've kind of discovered it?

Why was it so, why do you think it was forbidden in North Korea?

So the tragic thing about North Korea is not only just banning Shakespeare, like we don't even know what Romeo and Juliet is, right?

Our movies is never about love stories, but then also they ban the love between mother and daughter, wife and husband, and you know, and between your friends, they deny you being a human.

So only love that I knew was when I described my feeling towards the leader and in a written form.

That was the only love that people know in North Korea.

And now I'm like there are many loves you can experience.

I mean I think you definitely love science, right?

But imagine that if you're being denied that.

So there are so many loves in life, but in North Korea, all of those things are denied.

Like, you know, love for your child, love for your parents, love for your friends, love for even yourself, that is denied.

So, I mean, many people say like love is an option, but like, then why do you live?

It can be anything, but finding love in any person or in any subject, I think that's a goal.

I think that's when people find the meaning in something.

Yeah, I think romantic love is just 1 sort of-

Yeah, science, I love science, I love robots, all of those things.

And it sounds like deliberately or not, the North Korean regime wants to channel that very deep aspect of the human spirit all towards the leader.

That's the only thing they allow us to fear and know about.

So I remember, I mean, you read 1984 by George Orwell.

It talks about double think and double speak.

Who controls the language, who controls thoughts.

And while he does talk about it, as they go, they like eliminate a lot of words.

Now, like later, 1 word can represent 10 different things.

And like what fascinates me is like how many vocabulary meaning people can have.

And when I literally came out, I remember I went to San Francisco and someone came to me and hugged me.

And then he was a guy, he's like, oh, baby, don't worry, I'm gay.

And then they tried to go to a hotel room and Google the gay.

And I was like, oh, that's what you meant.

And like that, like, they deny what that is.

So the fact that you know the concept, that is a state much better than, and that's the thing a lot of people like when you're born, you somehow know what justice is, what liberty is.

And like, that's the thing why people is like, oh, humans are inherently know what is right, what is wrong, what is oppression.

That's fascinating that words give rise to ideas.

So like as a child 1 of the ways to learn about justice and freedom is to first learn the word and then to ask well what is it?

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Yeonmi Park: North Korea | Lex Fridman Podcast #196