Niels Jorgensen is a former New York firefighter for over 21 years, who was there at Ground Zero on September 11th, 2001. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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EPISODE LINKS:
Niels's 20 for 20 Podcast: https://ironlightlabs.org/20-for-20/

PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41

OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
3:12 - September 11, 2001
31:07 - Falling man
35:18 - Ground Zero
41:36 - 20 for 20
44:47 - What it means to be a great firefighter
47:31 - Why did you become a firefighter?
49:20 - Tally Ho
52:05 - New view of the world
59:35 - Empathy
1:04:08 - Leukemia
1:19:37 - New York City
1:25:47 - John Feal
1:39:17 - Conspiracy theories
1:48:05 - Faith
1:50:04 - Modern communication
1:54:30 - Hand written letters
2:08:21 - Love
2:20:05 - War in Afghanistan
2:31:44 - Brave stories from 9/11

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The following is a conversation with Niels Jorgensen, a New York firefighter for over 21 years who was there at Ground 0 on September 11th, 2001.

He was forced to retire because of the leukemia he contracted from cleaning up Ground 0.

This podcast tells his story, and the story of other great men and women who were there that day.

Some of the stories we talk about are part of a new limited podcast series that Neils hosts called 20 for 20, with 20 episodes for the 20 years since 9-11.

To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

As a side note, please allow me to say a few words about the terrorist attacks on September 11th, 2001.

I was in downtown Chicago on that day, lost in the mundane busyness of an early Tuesday morning.

At that time, I was already fascinated by human nature, the best and the worst of it, exploring it through the study of history and literature.

In the years before, as a young boy growing up in Russia, I saw chaos, uncertainty, and desperation in the Soviet Union of the 1990s, wrapping up a century of war and suffering.

But after coming to America for me, there was a sense of hope, like all of it was behind us.

A bad dream to be forgotten as we enter into the new century.

On 9-11, when I saw the news of the second plane hitting the towers, my sense of hope had changed.

I understood that the 21st century, like the century before, would too have its tragedies, its evildoers, its wars, and its suffering.

And unlike the history books, these stories will involve all of us.

They will involve me in however small and insignificant a role, but 1 that nevertheless carries the responsibility to help.

I became an American that day, a citizen of the world.

I felt the unity and the love in the days that followed.

And I think most of the world shared in this feeling that we are all in this together.

There were many heroes sung and unsung on that day and in the years after.

Often politicians fail to rightfully honor the service and sacrifice of these heroes.

There is much I could say about that, but I don't want to waste my words on the failures of weak leaders.

Instead, I want to say thank you to the men and women who rushed to Ground 0 to help, who put on a uniform to serve, who make me proud to be an American and a human being, and give me hope about the future of our civilization, here on a small spinning rock that despite the long odds, keeps kindling the fire of human consciousness and love.

This is the Lex Friedman Podcast and here is my conversation with Niels Jorgensen.

Take me through the day of September 11th, 2001 as you experienced it, as you lived it.

September 11th, 2001, it was a bright, beautiful, sunny Tuesday morning, it was a late summer.

There's a lot of folks who go to the beaches in New Jersey call it the short summer.

So everybody's left there for Labor Day, but it's still beautiful enough to enjoy the weather.

I left my house about 6.30 in the morning, and my 4 and a half year old daughter said to me, daddy, which truck are you driving today?

The fire truck, the oil truck, or the Boar's Head truck?

Most New York City firefighters and police officers, EMS, we don't make the most amount of money.

So in order to live in that city, you have to hustle.

And my wife stayed at home raising the children.

So my daughter said, oh, so you should be safe because you're on the oil truck.

I told her I was going on the oil truck that day.

So she said, you should be safe today, daddy.

So I left and worked for this great company on the North Shore, Staten Island, Quinlan Fuel.

And it was my first day back actually for the winter season.

I usually get laid off a couple months in the summer because things, you know, too hot to need oil.

So I took the truck, started my route that day and a plane hit the tower.

So initially I'm like, oh, it's probably some silly Learjet pilot.

And he veered off track to get a better picture for a client and he hit the building.

Probably hit a, you know, bad turbulence, gust of wind.

It's very windy down in that area, Manhattan.

You wake up, you leave, and then the plane hits at 8.45, 8.50, yeah.

So how did you hear that a plane hit something?

I'm a big news radio guy, news guy, bit of a buff.

I've been that way since I was a kid and I had the news radio on the local New York radio station and as I was driving the truck, I heard a emergency report, this just in, aircraft has just struck the World Trade Center.

And where Quinlans is located, it's on the north rim of Staten Island, which is right on New York Harbor.

And you could see Statue of Liberty a mile or 2 away in the distance and then past that is the towers.

So I just literally stopped the truck and looked out and I saw the smoke.

It was just, yeah, I mean, it was burning fully at that point.

Did you have fear of what the hell happened?

I was initially scared for anybody involved.

I realized, I said, there's gonna be lots of fatalities, obviously, depending on the size of the aircraft.

The business day there had started probably at 8, 830 so those buildings should have been packed at that moment so that was a thought across my mind.

But from our being responder perspective if you're off duty normally you do not go to a scene.

They don't want you to because of accountability and safety.

The on-duty platoon will handle it, and if it's something very horrific, then they will have something called a recall, which is any police, firefighter, or EMS personnel is obligated to go to their command immediately, check in with their command, get their gear, and stand by and await orders for deployment, or to remain in that command for

How often throughout history have there been recalls?

I believe the 1 prior to that was like in the 1968 riots, possibly, and then maybe in the 70s, there was another blackout and riots.

And I remember my dad talking about it and he actually always said, just remember if something bad's going down, don't just rush in, you will wait the recall or at the very least, if there isn't a recall, you get to your firehouse.

And because if you show up somewhere, there's a good chance that no 1 knows you're there.

And now you, in your well-intended movements, you get lost or trapped or no one's looking for you.

So that's the whole thing with checking in and now you're with a squad or group of guys and everyone knows, hey, there's Nels, there's Lex, okay, they're on this team.

So I said, all right, they're not going to need us.

It's probably going to be a fifth alarm and you know, there'll be 250 firefighters there.

It's going to be a bad day for those guys.

But you know, our guys take on some heavy stuff and they'll be fine.

A few minutes later, the second plane hit and I knew immediately, I'm like, okay, we're under attack.

He understood, he knew something was way wrong and I just was flying.

At the time I actually had a yellow Volkswagen Beetle, kind of a goofy car to be driving but I loved it.

So for people who are just listening, you're kind of a big guy.

Well, yeah, I definitely need to lose about 50 pounds.

As my beloved friend Bobby Adams would say to me, I was driving around in a clown wagon and he also says I have a waving hairdo, waving bye-bye.

Yeah, so I took the Volkswagen and I flew in and I was heading over to Verrazano Bridge and hit the Brooklyn Queens Expressway.

And my phone rang and my wife normally doesn't curse or raise her voice and she was yelling at me and she said don't go in there go to your firehouse well first she asked well, she knew I was on the way, but she just wanted to know where and I Said I'm on I'm on the curve, which is 65th Street on the Brooklyn Queens Expressway called dead man's curve we We actually used to do a lot of car wrecks up there.

And I was hitting that curve pretty fast.

And then right around the curve is the exit to the firehouse.

And I had to decide, well, am I driving right in to the battery tunnel to the city Or am I going to the firehouse?

How do I show up with no gear, no protection?

So she said, do what your dad would follow the recall, go to the firehouse.

I hung up the phone, I said, I love you, gotta go.

And I did, I went to the firehouse and I'm glad I listened to her.

he did 34 years in New York City Fire Department.

He came down end stage non-hodgkin's lymphoma.

They said, there's really not much we can do.

Go get your affairs and he says, but Doc, I have 3 young kids.

She said, I got in touch with Sloan Kettering and they have a new drug.

He said, hey doc, he's got a heavy Brooklyn accent.

I'm a fireman, I'm a fireman, I'm not a pilot.

So she said, no, no, we want you to try this drug out.

And it's, if it works, we may have some success.

But if not, he says, yeah, I'm gonna die.

So every 2 weeks for 4 years, he'd go for treatment.

But he was assigned to a desk job after that, after the cancer tumor removal and the heavy treatments.

And he'd get up every morning at 04:00 in the morning and he'd walk down to the train station in Staten Island, take the train, and then he'd take the ferry across the harbor, and he'd get off looking at the towers, and then he'd take a subway into Brooklyn.

And on every other Thursday, he'd leave at noon, and do the same exact reverse route, and he'd get to the cancer center, and my mom would meet him, and he'd get his infusion, and within 2 hours he'd be violently ill for a few days, really badly ill.

And I just remember, you know, he's 10 years, I was 10 years old, and he just had to have the room darkened out and he'd be so sick and I'd just go in and wipe the vomit on his face, just try to give him a little water but he couldn't take it down because he'd throw it up.

And maybe on Saturday, he'd start coming around a little bit, drink down a little bit of tea.

And on Sunday morning, he'd put his robe on, he'd go down, mom would make him black coffee and toast.

He'd sit up, watch the news, watch a game.

And then Monday morning, he'd go back to work.

You said that your dad's a man of a few words, but when he talks, they're profound.

So what words were ringing in your ear when you were driving?

I just always remember him saying, kid, they give the recall, you go to the firehouse.

You go to the firehouse, you follow your orders.

And every time we'd hang up the phone, it's fireman talk.

My dad couldn't tell me he loved me until I told him when I first got on a flight upon when I was 22.

My granddad was a good man, but a tormented man.

He was sent away from home at 12 years old.

He was from Denmark and I'm named after him, Grandpa Nils.

And I think his demons took up a large part of his life, his anger, whatever it was, his fear.

We got the sense that maybe when he was a child, he was an apprentice baker, living with strangers, working for them.

And we think maybe he was abused, and that's why he took it out on my dad, and my grandma, and my aunts, but they made it up to each other at the end of my granddad's life.

My granddad turned out to be the best grandfather ever.

I think he tried to heal and heal everyone by his change of behavior.

So he's proof that you can change, you can improve if you work on it.

But I know I'm going off track here, but-

But you were man enough in your, you say in your 20s to tell your dad-

I got on the job and he said, I had a go kid, I was the tour, we called tour duty.

I said, oh, dad, it was great, it was great, I love it.

And he goes, just remember, you keep low, you always keep low.

And keep low means you stay down below the flames.

You know, if a room flashes over and it's burning, if you stay up high, you're gonna get burned badly.

But if you get down on your belly and you crawl, you'll get out.

So he'd always say that when he'd hang up the phone and I said, well, I love you, Pop.

So, you know, they talk about masculinity and whatnot.

And my dad is 1 of those tough, tough guys with a soft edge.

And that's how he brought me up, you know, to be a protector.

I was bullied really badly as a kid and I really hated it and now I find myself sometimes throwing myself into situations to protect people that are being violated and hurt and I just can't walk away from it.

My dad was that, you know, just a great guy.

You still listen to, therefore, see, you probably want to rush right to the towers, but you went.

Yeah, so anyway, I did, I listened to him.

I went to the firehouse, and it was really strange.

It was eerie because the computer dispatch system was still beeping, which meant it sent a dispatch and the truck received it, Ladder 114, My truck company received it and they left, they were gone.

So there was this beautiful old building built in the 1880s with a spiral staircase, just a narrow old brick garage and it was empty.

said, Ladder 114 respond, the Vessian West World Trade Center aircraft into building.

And I said, oh God, I just hope they're not on a death ride because this now was 2 towers and they were burning.

They were free burning And I knew this was really, really bad.

And I got on the phone and I called commands right away.

I called the 40th battalion and chief's aide just said, look, get 12 guys, sign them in to the journal.

There's a journal of daily events, everything that takes place in the firehouse 24-7 has to be logged.

And I logged myself as coming in, reporting for duty.

And as the guys came in, I logged them in.

And then 1 of our lieutenants took command.

We grabbed up a bunch of gear, and they basically told us, get 12 guys, get a city bus, and get down to the battery tunnel.

There was threats it was gonna be blown up to get to the Brooklyn Bridge.

We got a city bus, we flagged it down and the bus driver said, I'm sorry I can't give you the bus, I will drive you.

And he took us and we stopped at engine 201 which is just about a quarter mile down the road from us.

That's our affiliated engine company and my childhood best friend here Johnny Shard was he was assigned there and he was on shift and then they went through the tunnel.

And we picked up those guys, the off-duty guys from 201 and then we kept going down 4th Avenue and we picked up 239's crew.

And then we hightailed it down the bridge and there's a lot of traffic, there's a lot of people fleeing, coming over the bridge and waves, so it affected the inbound.

It was somber because just prior to getting on the bus, the first tower went down.

So we figured that I had heard 114, my lieutenant Dennis Oberg, I heard him on the radio and He said, 114 Manhattan, we're on your frequency, what do you need us?

And they said, Tally Ho, which is our nickname, Tally Ho responds in the Vessian West to the command post and receive your orders.

And Dennis, a little while after that, they were proceeding to go into, I believe it was, I get this mixed up and I'm sorry, I should know this right at the back of my hand, but sometimes it's just such a haze.

But the second tower hit was the first 1 to go down and they were heading over to go in it.

And all of a sudden he looked up and he saw like what he thought to be disintegration and he turned the guys around.

They sprinted as fast as they could and they dove under a fire truck.

And the guys that were sprinting behind him 40 feet away were underneath a pile that was 10 stories deep.

And just further into that pile was his rookie son, who, Dennis' rookie son, who was working in Ladder 105, which was my first command on the department.

I worked for, proudly served for 3 years.

And just beside them was my childhood best friend John Shard and his His crew from 201 and They they were all killed And the strange irony to them to that is that Dennis Dennis's son Dennis jr.

Was working underneath the under the wing of a senior man, as we say.

A senior man is a guy with a lot of experience and he'll watch over you, make sure you don't veer off, like I veer off a lot in talking, and you don't veer off and you get yourself hurt.

In the morning of the 1993 bombing, Henry Miller was my senior man.

And I was the young guy under his wing and he protected me.

And toward the end of the day, he looked around and he said, kid, it's a bad day.

If they did it in a corner, they would have dropped this building half mile down at Canal Street.

But don't kid yourself, they'll be back and they'll do it and they'll do it right next time.

And it's so strange and so prophetic because he was there with him, he died with Dennis, he knew it.

And it said, not a matter of if, but a matter of when be prepared.

And it's haunting, it was like people knew, right?

And So we got off the bus, but just prior to that, coming over the bridge, the second tower was gone now.

just destroyed because we're like, our guys are there, they're all in there.

Now we're feeling like cowards because we got there late.

Initially we're thinking there's 500 guys that are gone because it was a 10th alarm assignment, which means

fire trucks, 5 to 6 guys per, you're looking at at least, no, it

was even more, 10th alarm plus multiple alarms on top of it.

It was a dispatch basically equivalent of 5 to 600 firefighters.

We figured out they're all in there, all gone.

All the police officers, Port Authority police, NYPD police, court officers just up the street from the courts,

Like just, you know, we knew everybody was going and now they're gone.

So what you saw, what were we looking at?

So you saw rubble and then you knew that many, that 105 and 201, many of those guys are in the, they're dead.

Yeah, and we thought 114 was in there too.

We didn't realize at that point, we didn't even realize that they had gotten under that truck.

We thought they were all gone, but yeah, it looked like a movie scene with just end of the earth destruction.

It's just massive piles of intertwined steel, what was left of the steel.

And there was no cement, it was all just dust.

And it was just a burning pile of dust and concrete and plastic and it was just everything was just pulverized.

And it was truly hard to mentally compute that.

Like it was like what, and then there was just fighter jets, couple fighter jets just circling and you just heard the flying by over your head.

I mean you literally see the guy banking a turn around the Brooklyn Bridge and just coming back and I'm like, holy shoot, we're under attack?

And we couldn't really get concrete intel as to what exactly, we knew planes, but then we kept hearing There was multiple devices, there was devices in a battery tunnel, and there was devices on a George Washington Bridge, and in the subways, and it was just chaos.

I mean, we kept it together, obviously, because that's kind of, we try, that's what we do.

But the just constant barrage of different reports.

And then as we were being deployed, it was a little frustrating, but they were trying to take command and send us in groups now because they realized we have to start searching this.

You could hear the alarms on the Scott Airmask, the packs we wear to go into the building, it has a motion alarm.

And if you stop moving for 30 seconds, it just sounds like this whining, this screaming bell, it just keeps going and going.

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Niels Jorgensen: New York Firefighters and the Heroes of 9/11 | Lex Fridman Podcast #220