Travis Stevens is the 2016 Olympic Judo silver medalist and BJJ black belt. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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EPISODE LINKS:
Travis's Website: https://www.travisstevensgrappling.com/
Travis's Twitter: https://twitter.com/judosilencer
Travis's Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/TravisStevensgrappling
Travis's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/judosilencer

PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41

OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
4:39 - What is Judo?
12:27 - Travis's signature throw
17:52 - Fundamentals
19:44 - Throws
32:36 - Gripping
41:09 - Weight cutting
1:10:22 - Injuries
1:14:22 - Jiu-Jitsu
1:18:05 - Lex on his judo competition experience
1:21:30 - Levels of mastery
1:34:41 - Matches
1:48:42 - Travis inspired Lex to practice judo
1:54:56 - London 2012 Olympic games
2:36:33 - 2016 Olympic games
3:10:56 - Mixed team competition
3:18:21 - The value of epic throws
3:21:49 - Shohei Ono
3:28:11 - Chess
3:33:14 - The coach
3:39:50 - Advice for young people

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The following is a conversation with Travis Stevens, 2016 Olympic silver medalist in judo and 1 of the greatest American judoka ever.

But his story is inspiring, not because of that Olympic medal, but because of the decades of injury, hardship, incredible battles against the best in the world, wrapping up in close, heartbreaking losses at the 2008 and 2012 games, all of which eventually led to that very silver medal in 2016.

As we talk about in the podcast, Travis is also someone who is largely responsible for me getting into Judo, for which I will forever be grateful.

He also happens to be now my Judo coach and mentor.

I'll release a video of Travis and I doing some Judo in a few days.

To support this podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description.

As a side note, let me say a few words that I've written down about the Olympic Games and the International Olympics Committee.

I'm visiting family, hence the t-shirt, but I had to pull away to write and to say these words because this very video was taken down by YouTube as per the request of the IOC.

You know it's serious when a Russian takes time away from family, food and drink.

I am heartbroken to see continued incompetence, greed and corruption on the part of the IOC in failing to do as the Olympic Charter states to quote, ensure the fullest coverage and the widest possible audience in the world for the Olympic Games." I want to give you 2 facts.

First, they do not make most of the videos of the games available for replay anywhere that is accessible, searchable, and discoverable, whether funded by ads or by subscriptions.

For example on YouTube or their own service.

Second, in the most absurd violation of the Olympic Charter, They've uploaded all of the videos of the 2012, 2016,

And they set all of these videos to private.

This results in a situation like my 4 hour conversation that you're watching now with Travis Stevens being taken down due to us including a few seconds of a small video overlay of Travis's epic match against Ole Bischoff in 2012.

This is done automatically as per the request of the IOC.

I have the video due to having screen recorded it from 2012.

Here you have Travis Stevens, an Olympic silver medalist, someone who spent his entire life overcoming injuries, losses, hard weight cuts, periods of no financial or psychological support culminating in the biggest heartbreak of his career in this 1 match.

And this match is available nowhere online, not for free, not for $1 million.

Our showing short clips of it results in the IOC taking it down, not demonetizing it, taking it down, blocking it.

The IOC silences this amazing story of Travis Stevens, of heartbreak, that eventually led to triumph.

And there are thousands of stories like it, stories that are supposed to inspire the world.

To me and to billions of others, the Olympic Games give a chance to celebrate and to be inspired by the greatest stories of human flourishing in the face of hardship and incredibly long odds or dominance in the pursuit of perfection at levels previously thought to be impossible.

The Olympic Games inspire kids like me to dream and to work hard to achieve in our own lives the same moments of magic and greatness, small or big, that the Olympic Games reveal.

I believe the members of the IOC are good people, but people who forgot the dream, the fire that was sparked and burned in their hearts when they first saw the Olympics as kids.

They've allowed the gradual corruption of their own human spirit, and thereby have robbed the world of this very fire, the fire of the Olympic torch, the fire that ought to burn in the eyes and hearts of kids watching the Olympics today, daring to dream, daring to be great.

This is the Lex Friedman Podcast, and here's my conversation with Travis Stevens.

Judo is a martial art, a sport, a set of techniques, ideas, and philosophies.

Can we start by maybe you giving a big picture overview of what is judo to somebody who's like outside

Yeah, judo was originated in Japan that was used as a police tactic for self-defense and subduing people.

It's the art of being able to throw somebody to the ground and hold and control the situation.

I think it's pretty much evolved since then though.

It's as you include like the sport aspect of it, it's grown to be something more and more dynamic and it's kind of gotten away from that.

So the basics is people wear something called a gi, which I think nicely mimics like outdoor clothing, like a jacket.

And they start on the feet and there's, they get to grip each other and the scoring works by the more badass the throw is, the more points you get.

And if you throw the person big and hard on their back, you win the match and it's over.

They got to hit their back and they got to hit it with force.

And so there's a huge incentive for the big throws.

And there's also the drama of somebody catching you off guard with a surprise big throw and it's over.

Like you just, you see it, but you can't stop it.

And those ones tend to be the ones you can live with.

The ones that are like really hard to live with are the ones you never saw coming, right?

Cause that just shows that that person has really outclassed you.

Right, so there's like a set of, a small set of throws, maybe we can go through them, that are like, you saw it coming, but you couldn't do anything about it.

And then there's the set of throws that are more like surprises.

So first of all, the counters, or if you fake 1 thing and go the other way, then that's a surprise and it's like, oh shit, you off balance the person because they think you're going 1 way and then you go the other way and then there's this, oh shit moment all of a sudden.

1 of the ones, I mean, you're good of many throws, but 1 of them is a, that I think reveals the beauty of Judo is the foot sweep.

There's something about the off balance and the timing that if you catch him right, all of a sudden, it's like I had the same feeling when skydiving, like all of a sudden the ground is not under you anymore.

Yeah, and you just, you go weightlessness for like a split second and you realize you've lost like all control of your limbs.

Like you just, you can't turn, you can't rotate, you can't do much of anything.

And then before you know it, you've hit the floor.

It's a cool feeling when you get thrown, because you hope to do the same thing to another person.

It's like, you just hit the ground hard because it's not, you didn't see it coming.

It wasn't a big throw that got loaded up.

And then like this like feeling your back just slams and there's like the airs up.

And the worst is when you get hit twice with 1 throw, right?

Because sometimes like the guy throwing you didn't expect you to leave either.

So you hit, and then that guy comes down like a second and a half later, and it's like, boom, boom.

Like then the intellectual, the cognitive part comes in where you're like, oh shit,

And you don't have like a connection to why, right?

It's almost like you've just like, you didn't literally get a concussion.

Like you understand and remember everything, but you can't figure out how this just happened, right?

Actually, have you had moments like that?

Where you don't understand how it happened, you have to watch footage to understand what happened?

Even when you watch it, you're just like, I don't get it, like, why wasn't I in a position to stop this?

Conceptually, when you watch it, you're like, I understand how to play defense.

I understand, it looks like I'm in a defensive position, but at the end of the day, I still got thrown.

Yeah, you were talking about, what is it, a 2008 match?

You have a non-traditional gripping style, is that accurate to say?

But, and then you were going against another right-handed player, and then there was some kind of fake that he did.

He caught me with a drop sale, but he kind of like, we were engaged.

We were looking at each other and we were kind of at like a stalemate, right?

He couldn't really advance, I couldn't really advance.

And he kind of just let his gaze like wander off to the right, like he was looking at something.

And then I kind of like, what's over there?

So first of all, for people who don't know, seio is seinagi, drop means when you drop to your knees and seinagi is 1 of the fundamental throws of judo.

I always wondered that about like boxing or judo.

Does the head movement of the person work?

Because we're still like kind of dogs at heart.

If you look somewhere with a dog, the dog is going to look that direction as well.

It does, but on a greater sense, what you try to do is not necessarily get like a physical reaction of a look, but a lull of security where like, they've almost like relaxed for that split second because you've lured them into like a sense of comfort.

So you have this, speaking of Sainagi, you have this gigantic standing Sainagi.

1 of our challenges is there's a large number of people that listen to the audio version of this.

So we're going to have to try to describe some of this stuff.

I'll do my best to try to describe with words, but you have, you grip with your left hand on the lapel of the jacket or like that area.

And there's kind of a lean into the person.

And I suppose, is there a feeling of a lull there that you're trying to get to where you're just, it feels like you're both calmly dancing before you turn your hips and go in for

I'm actually trying to create a sense of weightlessness for my lead leg, which would be my right leg and a sense of resistance from my partner.

So you, aren't you both kind of leaning into

each other and it creates like an A-frame.

But when the A-frame is held together at the top half, which would be my left hand and their right hand posted on each other's chest.

It means our legs are free to move and our hips are free to move.

And they're not going to feel your leg move because of the weightlessness.

And is there a feeling like for them, is there

a feeling like nothing bad can happen here?

And then they're standing off at a funny angle.

And before they know it, I've spun and my back is on their chest and they can't go anywhere.

So for people, It's called Ippon Seinagi, which means your right hand goes under their armpit area.

And that's like a vice that connects you to them.

The interesting thing with the standing 1 is as opposed to drop Seinagi version, the drop Seinagi, you kind of drop under them.

And because there's a vice, they're like pulled under and like over.

With the standing 1, I suppose there's some similar physics but you're kind of loading them onto your hip.

And so they're in the air while you're standing still.

There's a sense in which they're, like you're lifting them above where they started.

I first learned just learning like the very basics of the throw, foot placement, all that kind of stuff.

And then, like anything, the basics are nice.

But once you get good at the basics, it's very easy to stop, but it gives you a good like fundamental platform to learn off of and to expand off of.

And then I expanded when I first started watching Koga, the new wind, right?

Cause he's the 1 that first like introduced that split hip style Seoi Nage that I do.

Once I learned that 1, I built about 8 different variations of Seoi off that 1 start position.

That way I could, regardless of your defense, I had an answer for a throw.

Why, can you describe love to me, Travis Stevens?

Why'd you fall in love with that throw in particular?

It was really a sense of, You know, 1 of my shortcomings as a kid, like I hate leg day in the gym.

If you ask me to do a squat, I'll get it done, but I will bitch and moan every step of the way.

I remember 1 time I was at the gym with my trainer and he goes, okay, we're gonna do front squats and I want you to put 225 on the bar.

And he was like, what do you mean you can't do that?

We put 225 on the bar and I bottomed out.

And then he was like, okay, let's go down to 185.

I just mentally, I cannot wrap my head around like, this ain't happening.

95 pounds on the bar, I got you at a front squat.

By the way, body weight squats are rough too.

Yeah, I just, when it comes to my legs, like I want no part of like leg pressing, single leg squats, split squat, any of that, I want no part of it.

So you think like the more traditional variants of San Aki require you to- Have that leg strength, that mass.

Like when you watch Japanese Judo players, like their thighs and their hips, they're thick.

So you're almost like always dropping a little bit into a squat position.

Yeah, and so the split hip, the split hip actually allows me to keep my legs straight.

And the farther I split my legs, the lower my center of gravity goes.

But it's, you know, The interesting thing about it is because, as I mentioned to you, I've gotten to judo after first watching you in the Olympics and then watching Koga as well.

And so you start imitating the people you foresee and then you take it to judo coaches and they're like,

no, no, no, that's the wrong way to do it.

I was in Poland 1 time teaching a camp and I had 2 coaches anti-coaching, telling their kids not to do Seoi the way I do it because it never works.

you have the fortitude and the guts to just go on with a throw that's not traditional, a variant that's not traditional?

If you think about it from a very basic root of it, there's a philosophy and a mentality of Judo of how the throws work, right?

There's a mechanical structure there of like, this makes sense.

If I follow that principle, I can do anything I want.

Nothing else matters, as long as we follow those core principles.

So in the early days, even then you were able to think on your own.

Yeah, and I was able to develop a pattern for my foot placement based on my opponent's height because the number 1 thing any judo coach would tell you is you need your center of gravity below the others.

Well, now I know exactly where to put my feet because the shorter you are, the bigger the split, because the lower I need to get.

The taller you are, the less of a split I need.

Is there something you could say about fundamental principles of Judo?

Is there, over all that time, not 20, over 20 years that you've been doing judo.

Okay, we're a couple of years away, but it's getting

Is there some like principles that have emerged?

Like you said, you have to have your center of gravity below theirs.

Is there other kind of, both on the gripping side, the footwork side, leverage, anything you can speak to?

There's some that have withstood like time, like you have to be able to get below their center of gravity because you have to be able to rotate them around their center of gravity.

And then the other 1 is, that was always a principle when I was growing up and I didn't change until later on in my career was, you have to be able to pull.

You need to be able to pull to get them off balance.

But when you think about that statement as a whole, it ended with, they have to be off balance.

I don't need to pull to get you off balance.

And when you think about it that way, it allows you to open up the doors to, what do I need to do to get you off balance?

I could push, pull, I could flinch, I could fake, and you could put yourself in your own off balance state.

Right, When you think about people who wrestle, right?

If I fake shoot, it causes you to over lean forward, which means you're off balance.

There's no pull, there's no push, there's no nothing.

I just get a reaction that leaves the opportunity and the door open for an attack.

And that off balance could be very subtle.

And the better you get and the more skills you get, the less subtle it is.

So We should also mention that there is something called forward throws, where you throw the person, you know, they're gonna fly facing forward, they're gonna fly forward, and then a backward throw, they're gonna fly back.

Yep, And then there's lateral, you know, they actually go sideways over like a cartwheel almost.

Okay, so the forward throws, there's the 1 we've been talking about, which is a Sainagi, and there's a bunch of different variants, Ippon, Marotte, Sainagi, there's drop and there's standing versions of them.

And that all, I don't know if there's a way to summarize it, but that's like as clean as getting your center of gravity under theirs as it gets.

And then the rest is just gripping variations.

I guess it's all gripping variations on all

And then there is, in terms of forward throws, there's the other big 1 in competition is uchimata, which is, I don't know, we can try to explain that 1, but it ends up being where 1, you're standing on just 1 of your feet and the other 1 is up in the air.

And I don't know if you put in that same category, Hara-Goshi, like those kinds of throws where you're kind of a little bit single footed.

So there's 2 footed techniques and then there's

Oh, Goshi, where it's like you're doing a mix between the Uchimata and the Seinagi.

You hug a person and then you turn your hips around such that you're now hugging facing the same direction.

When it comes to forward throw, there's regardless of the name of the throw or the gripping variation that you're using, the whole principle is how do I get this person to do a forward roll in midair and land on their back?

The more of a forward roll I can get, the bigger the score.

If I get like a quarter of a turn where like you land on your side and you don't go over your back, it's a half score.

But they all require me to get you to do that forward rolling action.

So just if we think of 1 person, if they do this nice leap forward and they do a roll and their back nicely rolls over the ground, you're trying to do the exact same thing with you connected to them.

Well, and if it's nice and it's smooth, it's probably not a full score.

It needs to have like somewhat of a violent impact, right?

So if you think of a drop-set Nagi, if I'm moving too slow and you still roll over your shoulders and there's no direct impact, it's only a half score.

Okay, so then in terms of backward throws, the traditional ones, there's stuff where you trip them from outside their body, like Osoto gari.

It's a trip where you hook your leg onto their leg and you trip them, but your hook goes outside of their legs.

And then there's the trips from inside their body.

There's a 1 foot is called Kuchigari and then the other is Oshigari, doesn't matter.

The most important thing is outside and inside.

And then there's like, I don't even know how you throw them sideways except foot sweeps.

And then there's the foot sweeps where you can sweep 1 of their legs from out of them or both their legs at the same time.

And like we were talking about, this kind of is when timed perfectly, it's effortless for everybody involved.

And the ending, like you said, is big, dramatic, and violent.

And that ultimately the variations have to do with gripping but you're basically you, the attacker fall onto your back, sticking your legs somewhere onto their body, which is like this fulcrum over which they fly and do that same kind of role that

You basically sacrifice your back to the mat in order to throw them into that circular pattern so they hit their back.

Sometimes we use a foot, sometimes we don't.

And so we should probably say, it's okay for you to go onto your back as long as you're clearly demonstrating control over the other person's body.

Correct, you can't go to your back in the same direction that your opponent is trying to put you to your back.

Or you have to initiate you going to your own back.

And then there's all the counters, which almost kind of have a whole group of their own, even though they have echoes of the same types of techniques, it seems like they're their own whole thing.

Yeah, but they follow the same principles.

It's just most counters, like if you wanted to counter Anuji Mata, for example, you're trying to throw me in a somersault over my right shoulder.

Therefore, I would counter you by throwing you over your left shoulder.

It goes in the opposite shoulder direction, but in the same somersault idea.

And there used to be, I already forget, at this point, forget the years, but it might be before the 2012 Olympics, where they banned, you used to be allowed to grab legs in the same way you do in wrestling.

See all Lex Fridman transcripts on Youtube

Travis Stevens: Judo, Olympics, and Mental Toughness | Lex Fridman Podcast #223