RZA is a rapper, record producer, filmmaker, actor, writer, philosopher, and the mastermind of the legendary hip hop group Wu-Tang Clan. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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EPISODE LINKS:
RZA's Twitter: https://twitter.com/RZA
RZA's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rza
Wu-Tang Clan Website: https://wutangclan.net

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Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
0:24 - Life and death
7:43 - Quincy Jones
13:06 - Quentin Tarantino
16:32 - Kung Fu
21:28 - Biggie
23:15 - Tupac
26:12 - Nas
29:15 - Favorite verse
33:13 - Who is God?
38:23 - Wu-Tang Clan
42:16 - Bruce Lee
49:07 - Godfather
55:03 - Veganism
59:54 - AI
1:04:08 - Chess
1:07:26 - American Gangster
1:13:22 - Creativity
1:19:51 - Advice for young people
1:23:14 - Meaning of life

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The following is a conversation with RZA, the rapper, record producer, filmmaker, actor, writer, philosopher, kung fu scholar, and the mastermind of the legendary hip hop group Wu-Tang Clan.

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

And now, here's my conversation with RZA.

In the Tower of Wu, you write, when my mother left the physical world, I lost 1 of my main links to the universe.

They say that you have an umbilical cord and an etheric cord, which is the invisible cord that attaches you to your soul, your mother's soul and all other souls.

When 1 passes away, you really lose something.

What have you learned about life from your mother?

You know, being 1 of 11 children and seeing the sacrifice that she gave to us, therefore given to life, it's really the greatest lesson of life.

The thing that shook me as I wrote those words was coming up young with arrogance, confidence, knowledge of myself.

In order to be the supreme being, you gotta be supreme amongst other beings.

I understand that more now than I did then because then it was so literal.

You know, the word God derived basically from the Greek language, as they say, and it meant wisdom, strength, and beauty.

But the power to control life and death is something that you would assume is a God trait.

So now, here you are, saying that you're a God, right?

And you're reading the Bible how Jesus brought back Lazarus.

And, you know, now it's your turn to do something.

And when my mother was laying there in the hospital bed, and air was no longer coming out of her lungs and going into her lungs, where's my power to bring her back to life?

So you can't truly be God, you're powerless.

Yeah, or God is not the definition that we need to use to describe it because it's a translation of wisdom, strength, and beauty.

But so I'm asking you a question, what did my mother teach me about life?

I learned that day on her physical passing, that okay, you know what I mean, There's a physical me.

And the thing I pray the most, beyond giving thanks is, I pray that her name is honored and remembered by my family.

I don't know if the world's gonna remember it, right?

Even if you watch my movie, Love Beats Rhymes, I named the school in that movie after my mother just to leave it somewhere else.

The pain of my mother's passing is indescribable.

Only until it happens to a person they know, and then they won't describe it either.

Only the people that lost their mother, they could look at each other and they got this nod.

But 1 other thing happened to me was the joy of life hit me differently.

And I think it was the realization of my own mortality versus my immortality.

And I don't know if we'll get to expound on that, but there was a joy that overcame me because I was kind of free of a certain illusion about the immortality of my physical being versus the mortality of my physical being.

So that was the first or the hardest realization you've experienced that you're mortal?

Yeah, and I'll say mortal, and what you're looking at here physically.

I'll say it's immortal because at the end of the day, it's just like I could sit here and I could just hum, please, please, please, by James Brown, but James Brown is not gonna come in here and do that.

Well, it lives through you by you singing it.

It lives through you by you listening to it, celebrating it.

And the hope is that the human species continues to celebrate the great minds and the great creations of the past.

When I say it's immortal, I don't think not just only because somebody sings it, right?

It's like, where's the fire at right now?

I'm not rushing that nowhere near me, right?

I read a lot of ancient texts, people probably know about me, and I love 1 of the great teachers named Bodhidharma.

And there was a thing written in 1 of the books of his, or 1 of the teachings of his, and the question, somebody asked him similar question, you know, you're scared to death or what are you gonna be after you die?

He had answers to everything, but he's like, I don't know.

Well, the uncertainty to some people is terrifying.

Not knowing what's on the other side of the door.

I mean, especially when you're young, you know, as a kid, fear permeated my life.

You know, I was actually watching horror movies and I believe in all type of supernatural things that could or can happen.

And, you know, whether it was being projected from my own mind or whether it was there visible to me, I don't know.

But life is beautiful and we have it and we should use it all the way to the last drop.

Realizing the mortality, the gift your mother gave to you is realizing the immortal and in so doing help you realize that life is beautiful.

On this topic, Quincy Jones I read said to ODB and you, when it rains, get wet.

Well, I think what Quincy was saying at that time was, you know, I think I was more conservative, like as a person, and like, you know, had money, women wanted me.

Anything I kind of wanted, I probably could have had, you know what I mean?

And he was just saying, when it rains, get wet.

And I didn't take total heed to him at that time.

A couple of years later, I took some heed.

And when I took heed, I think that I may have misinterpreted by looking at his example of getting wet versus my example of getting wet.

And I can tell you right now, I'm getting wet right now in my way.

In part, thanks to your mother, but overall you just learned how to appreciate the rain.

Just like the experience of every moment.

Yeah, and I'll share this with you because this is gonna be a very open conversation and I haven't had this conversation.

So definitely in part to my mother, then in part to my wife.

I meet my wife, it's my second wife, but I met her after my mother passed.

You know, some girl I met, thought she was beautiful and actually built a friendship with her.

But a few years later when the relationship became like, you know, this is, this is gonna be my woman.

It was actually doing, when I was doing the middle of my, of my divorce and I was like, you know, do I run wild and hey, you know, me and my wife already filed, we were separated and do I run wild?

And I didn't run wild, a little bit, but not too wild.

And you know, I'm still a man, I'm a hip hop guy.

But the funny thing is that my wife now, her name is Talani, my uncle said, she reminds me of your mother.

He knew my mother when, before I knew my mother.

And he saw that and we ended up dating, got engaged and then her mother passes.

And so now there's a total understanding of everything and we actually help build each other back up.

So of course I have to thank my mother for the awareness.

Then I thank my wife for bringing that awareness to actualization, Like to actually feel, I don't think I'd be talking to you right now and talking as much as I do these days if it wasn't for the security and peace and harmony that I was able to gain at home, you know?

And like you said, you now share that look of having both lost your mom.

What have you learned from Quincy about music, about business, about life?

Quincy Jones is a great mind, a great artist, a treasure in all reality.

He seen it from when it was, He couldn't walk in this, he couldn't eat in the same places he played his music at to owning places bigger than ours.

He's the type of guy, if you spend 1 hour with him, you got a lifetime of information.

And I was blessed to spend multiple hours with him and days with him.

And, you know, there's a certain period of time where we came across each other and he was always there to share the knowledge.

Like that's another thing about him that I think is special, and hopefully I picked that up, is that he's always willing to share.

Share with his experience, his knowledge.

I mean, I think he'll even share his home to the right person if he feels that that's what they need to get back on their feet.

So just the kindness, the goodness of the man is like the thing that really rubbed off on

I mean, Quincy Jones also in his 50s as a producer, produced 1 of the greatest albums of all time and 1 of the greatest selling albums of all time.

Not just great critically, economically great.

And I mean, he made, I think he did it at the age I am right now.

So now you got a taste of what greatness is.

Exactly, how to strive for yourself, yeah.

You've have a few people you've worked with who are fascinating like yourself, Quentin Tarantino.

When somebody asked you to describe him with 1 word, you said encyclopedia.

And for me, he shared it, I think, in a way that was unique in a sense of, no, at a point in time, you know, we just was super duper tight, like, you know, Like I'm going to his crib and watching movies and just having long conversations about art and about life.

I consider him, you know, especially when it comes to anything cinematic in my life, I consider him the godfather of that for me.

I think, you know, I humbly asked him to mentor me, which is a very humbling thing to do, coming from my neighborhood, coming from who I am, coming from, I was already a multi-platinum artist, you know, I mean, it was a year, it was past the year 2000 already.

So like 2001, 2002 that I asked him to mentor me.

So I was the wizard already, you know what I mean?

But I humbled myself because I saw in him a craft of brain power that to me resonated with me, but I was just a padamon at it, I was a novice at it.

Because I was trying to make movies in my music, you know, trying to make videos.

And here was a man who was a master of it and an encyclopedia of it as well.

Film history, from whether it's the actor, the director, the cinematographer, maybe even the costume designer.

He may know 50, 60, he may know the 50 greatest costume designers in his memory.

Yeah, and kung fu movies, most of you guys.

We actually started, I think we started our relationship trying to outdo each other.

And I think that category, if it wasn't another category, I wouldn't have had a chance.

But at least in that category, I was pretty holding my weight.

I'll be honest and say that I may have said a few he didn't see, but Quentin is older than me.

Yeah, he could go back to 72 when I didn't see 1 yet.

the flying guillotine that I got a chance to, that you commentate over today.

For you, the 36th Chamber of Shaolin, The Master Killer is your favorite.

Best ever, would you say that's the greatest kung fu movie ever?

It's hard to say the greatest ever, right?

Because somebody may make another 1 and it depends on your own phase of life.

If I want to introduce somebody to kung fu movies, That's a beautiful entry.

You talk about knowledge, you talk about wisdom.

What kind of wisdom do you draw from Kung Fu movies?

You know what, the martial art itself and the movies?

It's endless wisdom to be drawn and I draw it.

I draw it in a way that I could decipher it in my own life.

So for instance, in the movie, Master Killer, He basically, when he does Kung Fu, he does a really, a style called the Hung Gar technique.

And the director of the movie is actually a Hung Gar expert who has a lineage that traces all the way back to Shaolin Temple.

And this director always wanted to keep his movies pure and to bring hunger to the world.

It's like he wanted to show the world this lineage.

In fact, you just said Master of the Flying Guillotine is Quentin's favorite movie, and we mentioned that 36 Chambers is my favorite movie, but the action director of Master of the Flying Guillotine is the director of 36 Chambers of Shaolin.

And some of the things that's happening in Master of the flying guillotine is really the infant stage of what this action director is gonna learn and then use later on in his movies.

It's almost like, you know, Quentin is seeing him in his generation.

So Quentin might have been the same age I was watching that movie.

And then when he becomes a director, I'm at Quentin's age and I'm seeing his work.

And I'll end this question by saying, Hung Gar deals with the 5 animal technique.

Some people go 7, some go 12, but it's just stick to the 5 pattern.

And you see a tiger's fists, he curls before he spawns on you.

It doesn't have to be only in the Kung Fu move.

At any moment, Sometimes punching a person is not going to work, as they would say in leopard fist or tiger paw.

So sometimes you might have to poke them in the eye with the crane's beak.

So having your mind able to adapt the instinct of the animal when you are being attacked or when you are being the aggressor, that's something that you don't need a form for.

So Kung Fu, like I said, it informs me endlessly Because at first I was trying to learn all the, like I can't really hit you with that and really hurt you unless I've been banging my hand a thousand times on some bricks and made it so callous or muscles are so strong.

But the idea That if me and you was to get into a fight, then I'm gonna tiger up on you and take that instinct and prance when I'm a prance.

I mean, when I see the Kung Fu movies, because I love martial arts, all martial arts, and competitive ones too, like the actual competitions and so on.

It just seems like Kung Fu movies go much deeper than just like the techniques.

Yeah, they strike, I mean, if you see it, right?

Even I watched a great MMA fight recently, and just interesting, cause he was on top of the guy, you know, and the way he got from under him.

It had to be his spirit got from under him.

It's something like mixture of crane and whatever.

Yeah, no, I love that when people become artists in the cage, or that's much bigger than just like winning, much bigger than particular techniques, it's just art.

Especially at the highest level competition where millions of people are watching.

Yes, that's art under pressure is even more beautiful art.

You know, you look at some of these fights and you wonder like why somebody wins and lose.

And sometimes the less talent guy could win because he could deal with the pressure.

But the other guy, he could have beat him if there was someone else, but not in this arena.

So you're a scholar of history, including hip hop history.

I've listened to so many of your interviews.

You've spoken brilliantly about some of the big figures in hip hop history, Tupac, Biggie, Nas, many others.

What made them special in the history of music?

So I don't know if I'm the authority to answer it, but I'll just speak my piece on it and maybe I can just add on because I'm sure it's a lot of people that spent a lot of time with them that could speak on it.

But just as a fellow artist, I think not only was B.I.G.

A dope lyricist, I think he had a voice that was really immaculate.

In a sense that some rappers get on top of music and you gotta get used to them or you gotta vibe with them.

But he make a record sounds like a record immediately.

If you go back and listen to his music, you could take his voice and put it on anything.

And for some reason it sounds like a record.

You mean just like the raw voice of the man?

So you can just listen to it raw and it sounds like a record?

Yeah, but if you put a beat, take his voice and put it on any beat, he just has a voice, it's immaculate, you know?

So his lyrical skills and all that was great.

And you gotta think once again, he's doing all this, he's not even 25 years old.

Then you go to Pac, once again, immaculate voice, but what Pac had, I think, was a way of touching us on all of our emotions.

And especially on, like Pac had the power to infuse your emotional thought, like Brenda has a baby, they're a mama.

But then he had the power to arouse the rebel in you.

And those 2 things, actually, he was probably more dangerous than Big, Notorious B.I.G.

Notorious B.I.G., we could party with him to this day, we're still, but Pac was probably going to a point, he was more going into the Malcolm X of things and society fears that.

Yeah, so he was really good at communicating love and at starting revolutions.

And they communicated love, but he wasn't starting revolutions.

Well, it's interesting to think about what the world would be like if they were still with us.

Hendrix, a lot of those guys just go too soon.

Now, you asked me earlier, am I scared of death?

And I answered you, no, not scared of death.

I mean, I'm not trying to see it though, you know what I mean?

It's like, I'm not really going right there right now.

I'm making a left or right turn, You know what I mean?

Unless it was mandatory for some greaterness, greater good, it's like, okay, I gotta drive through that.

That's the meditation on death part where you could die at the end of today.

Yeah, you could die, well, dying and death, I think it's 2 different things, personally.

The process, you mean, of death, or just?

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RZA: Wu-Tang Clan, Kung Fu, Chess, God, Life, and Death | Lex Fridman Podcast #228