This is a chess game I played with Demis Hassabis after a recent podcast we did together. Check out the full episode here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfr50f6ZBvo

Demis's links:
Demis's Twitter: https://twitter.com/demishassabis
DeepMind's Twitter: https://twitter.com/DeepMind
DeepMind's Instagram: https://instagram.com/deepmind
DeepMind's Website: https://deepmind.com
Game Changer (book): https://amzn.to/3OQO40D
Link to chess game: https://www.chess.com/game/live/51150002699

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You probably need to have multiple agents running in your head.

Second agent, how do I play not too good of chess?

And third agent is how do I help Lex move correctly?

It Looks like I've got, you've given me white Lex, which

We will start the clock, so my clock's counting down.

Yeah, the English opening, you know, I'm English so I have to do that So, you know you press the clock when you're when you've done your move.

That's a good starting move very solid Lex

We're quite far away from the from the board Yeah, I'll press your clock for you don't worry.

Are we far away from the English opening at this point?

No this is a good line you're playing very standard.

You have to take notes of actually what move you've taken.

Yeah, that's always a good plan, keeping the king safe.

here's the Bishop Knight swap that we were talking about earlier, right?

The tension, you're creating the tension in the created tension in the game.

Now you have to come up with your middle game plan.

What's your strongest opener opening game or end game?

I would say probably the middle game middle game.

Yeah, the Queen, you know, you've got to be careful when you use the Queen.

I need to complicate the game a little bit for you.

No, you're not losing a piece, you're doing okay actually.

That's how it starts, but it's only a pawn.

I have to, I don't feel comfortable with you having a queen on the board.

Well, the queens coming off is usually the beginning of the endgame.

It's not the only part of the endgame, but it's 1 bit of the endgame.

See, that's a pretty cool idea, what you've done there.

I think the internet's gonna disagree with

Now, you see this is an interesting dynamic position with your bishop and my knight, but my knight's in a Good strong spot there.

Maybe I threaten you some other kind of way.

It feels like there's not much to do here.

Well, you've got to, you have to have to come at something good here.

I feel like there's some smart move that I'm totally missing.

Yeah, slowly going to take all your pawns.

The internet honestly will very much disagree.

This slow death is better than- Than a fast death.

You know, the interesting thing is the willingness to sacrifice pieces by oh, yes, that's so beautiful.

It is beautiful See, so now I'm gonna make use of all these pawns.

Would you say your Alpha 0 is much better than you at sacrificing pieces.

I sometimes, you know, lose them by mistake, but Alpha 0 is planning to lose them.

I'm getting basically all your pieces are getting constrained.

I'm just going to march these pawns down here or bring this rook to help out.

My knight's, you see how strong my knight's been in this game compared to your bishop.

Yeah, you can get rid of him now, but I think he's already, it's already done all the damage.

So you've lost once, but we can lose 2 times.

But now I'm going to get a few back crank weakness.

And then this pawn structure, and you're gonna bring out the

Finally gonna swing the other rook into the game.

Your final defensive piece I'm going to take.

Yeah, gonna march this pawn to the end now.

It's an honor to have been defeated so gracefully.

I didn't ask you, what do you think is the most beautiful thing you've seen AlphaZero do?

Oh yes, so there was actually the most beautiful game that I've seen AlphaZero play, is being dubbed the Immortal Zogzwang game by Akademata on 1 1 of YouTube, brilliant YouTube commentators, and he, it was, AlphaZero playing Stockfish and, sacrificing a load of pieces to, get Stockfish's, all of the Stockfish's major pieces, Queen and 2 Rooks, stuck in the corner.

And Zagzwang means that any move that the player makes will make their position worse.

And It's never been done to stockfish before and AlphaZero did it super elegantly.

And thank you for giving me and signing this book, Genshin.


Speaker 0: You probably need to have multiple agents running in your head. So 1 agent is how do I play good chess? Yeah. Second agent, how do I play not too good of chess? And third agent is how do I help Lex move correctly?

Speaker 1: Okay. We have 5 minutes each. It Looks like I've got, you've given me white Lex, which

Speaker 0: is

Speaker 1: nice of you. We will start the clock, so my clock's counting down.

Speaker 0: Okay. Non-standard.

Speaker 1: Yeah, the English opening, you know, I'm English so I have to do that So, you know you press the clock when you're when you've done your move. That's a good starting move very solid Lex

Speaker 0: Oh, that's not good.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No, this is good. This is very solid.

Speaker 0: Okay

Speaker 1: We're quite far away from the from the board Yeah, I'll press your clock for you don't worry.

Speaker 0: All right. Are we far away from the English opening at this point?

Speaker 1: No this is a good line you're playing very standard.

Speaker 0: You have to get used to it. They always do the funny thing where...

Speaker 1: Very nice, kidding me.

Speaker 0: You have to take notes of actually what move you've taken. Yes.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's always a good plan, keeping the king safe. I'm gonna do the same. Play very well so far.

Speaker 0: We just, we just say, yeah,

Speaker 1: you made your mistakes at this point. Nothing so far.

Speaker 0: This is, I'm not going to, I'm like, Oh,

Speaker 1: here's the Bishop Knight swap that we were talking about earlier, right? The tension, you're creating the tension in the created tension in the game.

Speaker 0: Relieving the tension.

Speaker 1: Relieving the tension, exactly. All right. Now it gets harder. Now you have to come up with your middle game plan. Would you say?

You did a very good opening. So you're in a fine position so far. Yeah. Very nice. Very nice.

Speaker 0: What's your strongest opener opening game or end game?

Speaker 1: I would say probably the middle game middle game. So this kind of, this kind of point. Very good. Very good. Very aggressive, aggressive licks.

Speaker 0: In fact, If I could sacrifice pieces,

Speaker 1: I really would.

Speaker 0: That's not a good move, is it?

Speaker 1: No, That's a good move. That's a very nice move.

Speaker 0: Are you afraid of using the Queen?

Speaker 1: Yeah, the Queen, you know, you've got to be careful when you use the Queen. I need to complicate the game a little bit for you. You're doing too well.

Speaker 0: Oh, Am I losing a piece here?

Speaker 1: No, you're not losing a piece, you're doing okay actually. I'm gonna take it anyway. It's only a pawn. That's how it starts. Only a pawn.

That's how it starts, but it's only a pawn. Very good. This is not still a poor, only a poor,

Speaker 0: I have to, I don't feel comfortable with you having a queen on the board.

Speaker 1: It's a Queens off less dangerous.

Speaker 0: It makes me feel much safer.

Speaker 1: So now we're in the end game now. So you're, you're on better territory.

Speaker 0: What's the definition of an endgame?

Speaker 1: Well, the queens coming off is usually the beginning of the endgame. It's not the only part of the endgame, but it's 1 bit of the endgame. See, that's a pretty cool idea, what you've done there. I'll take off your knight now.

Speaker 0: I think the internet's gonna disagree with

Speaker 1: that. But. Now, you see this is an interesting dynamic position with your bishop and my knight, but my knight's in a Good strong spot there.

Speaker 0: So you're attacking the bishop. My bishop is not... So what do I do with this bishop? Maybe I threaten you some other kind of way. Yeah.

But then you're going to attack there. I don't know. I think I'm just running scared.

Speaker 1: You're running scared now.

Speaker 0: Fear can't run.

Speaker 1: Can't run it.

Speaker 0: Okay. Yeah. That's not, is that? Oh, that's fine. That's the only move actually.

It's the only 1? All right. It feels like there's not much to do here.

Speaker 1: Well, you've got to, you have to have to come at something good here.

Speaker 0: Oh boy. And the time is running out.

Speaker 1: Time's running out. Escape. That's a good escape for your king. I'm going to come here now.

Speaker 0: Yeah. There's nothing else. There's nothing else.

Speaker 1: I cannot get another 1 of your pawns.

Speaker 0: I feel like there's some smart move that I'm totally missing.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems reasonable. But I'm not going to take a second pawn.

Speaker 0: Okay, that's what you mean.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 0: Maybe just eat away

Speaker 1: at your stuff. All right. This is is... Slowly constricting you. Yeah, slowly going to take all your pawns.

You play very well though, Lex. You haven't made any major mistakes. It's just slow, slow, slow death.

Speaker 0: The internet honestly will very much disagree. But let's see. This slow death is better than- Than a fast death. Embarrassing in the beginning. It's that I didn't get checkmate in

Speaker 1: the first few moves. This feels very constrained. You're getting slowly constrained.

Speaker 0: I'm trying

Speaker 1: to play like AlphaZero.

Speaker 0: Is that

Speaker 1: what that would be? Yeah, a kind of controlled end.

Speaker 0: You know, the interesting thing is the willingness to sacrifice pieces by oh, yes, that's so beautiful.

Speaker 1: It is beautiful See, so now I'm gonna make use of all these pawns. I've taken

Speaker 0: Would you say your Alpha 0 is much better than you at sacrificing pieces.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, intentionally. I sometimes, you know, lose them by mistake, but Alpha 0 is planning to lose them.

Speaker 0: This feels extremely constraining. Yeah, how close do you check me? Is there any way for me out of this?

Speaker 1: No, really? No. So these pieces can't. Yeah. I'm getting basically all your pieces are getting constrained.

I'm just going to march these pawns down here or bring this rook to help out.

Speaker 0: Okay. So if I take this knight with the rook.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you could do that. That would be a final sort of hope. My knight's, you see how strong my knight's been in this game compared to your bishop. Yeah. As we were talking earlier.

Speaker 0: He's already done the damage.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's done all the damage. Yeah, you can get rid of him now, but I think he's already, it's already done all the damage.

Speaker 0: Oh, and my time ran out.

Speaker 1: And your time ran out.

Speaker 0: We're going to finish

Speaker 1: this anyway. Finish the game anyway. It's time ran out. So you've lost once, but we can lose 2 times. Yeah, take that.

But now I'm going to get a few back crank weakness.

Speaker 0: All right. And, right. And then this pawn structure, and you're gonna bring out the

Speaker 1: other rook. Yeah, I'm gonna bring the other rook. Finally gonna swing the other rook into the game. Check.

Speaker 0: And I'm just gonna keep writing.

Speaker 1: Yeah, keep writing.

Speaker 0: How many moves would you estimate here?

Speaker 1: It's going to be about 10 from here. I'm going to Swap your rook off. Your final defensive piece I'm going to take. No, that's fine. Well you can...

I'll check here. Oh.

Speaker 0: And he's just marched that to the end.

Speaker 1: Yeah, gonna march this pawn to the end now.

Speaker 0: Well, I think this is a

Speaker 1: good- Thank

Speaker 0: you, it did it.

Speaker 1: It's an honor to have been defeated so gracefully. You played very, very well. I was impressed, I was impressed. You did great.

Speaker 0: I didn't ask you, what do you think is the most beautiful thing you've seen AlphaZero do?

Speaker 1: Oh yes, so there was actually the most beautiful game that I've seen AlphaZero play, is being dubbed the Immortal Zogzwang game by Akademata on 1 1 of YouTube, brilliant YouTube commentators, and he, it was, AlphaZero playing Stockfish and, sacrificing a load of pieces to, get Stockfish's, all of the Stockfish's major pieces, Queen and 2 Rooks, stuck in the corner. Basically seal them up, like in a tomb. And Zagzwang means that any move that the player makes will make their position worse. And It's never been done to stockfish before and AlphaZero did it super elegantly. Through sacrificing pieces?

Sacrificing pieces, yeah. It's a beautiful video online on it.

Speaker 0: And thank you for giving me and signing this book, Genshin.

Speaker 1: You're welcome, you're welcome.

Speaker 0: What is the book about?

Speaker 1: The book was written by the British chess champion and Women International Master Natasha Reagan and Matthew Sadler. And I known them both for years, for my chess days as a kid. And when they heard about AlphaZero, before we released it, they wanted to come in and try it out. We gave them full behind-the-scenes access to it. And then Matthew Sadler said to me, it's like discovering the notebooks of a hidden champion that no 1 knew about.

And he then wrote this book about all of the different ideas that AlphaZero had. And the cool thing is in there, in that book, so it's a chess book, but also the first few chapters about how we built AlphaZero, our journey towards it. And then Magnus Carlsen was 1 of the first people we gave the book to, and he sort of publicly said it was very useful to him and he's incorporated a lot of the ideas into his own play.

Speaker 0: The new ideas, you could say, created by AlphaZero. Tilex, a fellow explorer of the mysteries of the universe. Demis, Thank you so much. Thank you for everything you do.

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Lex Fridman plays chess with Demis Hassabis