Rana el Kaliouby is a pioneer in the field of emotion recognition and human-centric AI. She is the founder of Affectiva, deputy CEO of Smart Eye, and author of Girl Decoded. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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EPISODE LINKS:
Rana's Twitter: https://twitter.com/kaliouby
Rana's Instagram: https://instagram.com/ranaelkaliouby
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PODCAST INFO:
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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
1:00 - Childhood
10:37 - Hijab
13:20 - Faith
15:28 - War
19:37 - Women in the Middle East
23:55 - Rana's journey
36:30 - Rosalind Picard
38:38 - Advice for women
49:09 - Dating
56:45 - Human nature
1:01:25 - AI and emotions
1:32:03 - Smart Eye
1:41:24 - Tesla and Waymo
1:50:11 - Drunk driving
1:59:42 - Robotics
2:13:29 - Advice for startups
2:18:17 - Investing
2:25:41 - Advice for young people
2:34:01 - Love

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As we build socially and emotionally intelligent machines, what does that mean about our relationship with them?

And then more broadly, our relationship with 1 another, right?

Because this machine is gonna be programmed to be amazing at empathy, by definition, right?

The following is a conversation with Rana L.

Kalyubi, a pioneer in the field of emotion recognition and human-centric artificial intelligence.

She is the founder of Effectiva, deputy CEO of SmartEye, author of Girl Decoded, and 1 of the most brilliant, kind, inspiring, and fun human beings I've gotten the chance to talk to.

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

And now, dear friends, here's Rana El-Khalyouby.

You grew up in the Middle East, in Egypt.

What is a memory from that time that makes you smile?

Or maybe a memory that stands out as helping your mind take shape and helping you define yourself in this world.

So the memory that stands out is we used to live in my grandma's house.

She used to have these mango trees in her garden and in the summer, and so mango season was like July and August.

And so in the summer, she would invite all my aunts and uncles and cousins, and you know, like it was just like maybe there were like 20 or 30 people in the house and she would cook all this amazing food.

And us, the kids, we would go down the garden and we would pick all these mangoes.

And I don't know, I think it's just the bringing people together, like that always stuck with me, the warmth.

And there's just like the joy, the joy of being together around food.

And I'm a terrible cook, so I guess that didn't, that memory didn't translate to me kind of doing the same.

Is that what, like what, how does memory work?

So those Egyptian mangoes, there's a particular type that I love and it's called Darweshi mangoes and they're kind of, You know, they're oval and they have a little red in them.

So I kind of, they're red and mango colored on the outside.

Yeah, it's nice and ripe and stuff, yeah.

You know, there's like these almost stereotypical foods in different parts of the world, like Ukraine invented borscht.

Borscht is this beet soup that you put sour cream on.

If you know what it is, I think you know it's delicious, but if I explain it, it's just not gonna sound delicious, I feel like.

Beet soup, this doesn't make any sense, But that's kinda, and you probably have actually seen pictures of it, because it's 1 of the traditional foods in Ukraine, in Russia, in different parts of the Slavic world.

So, but it's become so cliche and stereotypical that you almost don't mention it, but it's still delicious.

Like I visited Ukraine, I eat that every single day.

I think to make it well, like anything, like Italians, they say, well, tomato sauce is easy to make, but to make it right, that's like a generational skill.

So anyway, is there something like that in Egypt?

There is, and actually, we have a similar kind of soup.

It's called molokhia, And it's made of this green plant.

It's like somewhere between spinach and kale and you mince it and then you cook it in like chicken broth.

And my grandma used to make, and my mom makes it really well.

And I try to make it, but it's not as great.

So we used to have that, and then we used to have it alongside stuffed pigeons.

I'm pescatarian now, so I don't eat that anymore, but.

It's the 1 thing I miss about, you know, now that I'm pescatarian and I don't eat any.

If that doesn't bother you too much to describe.

No, no, it's stuffed with a lot of like just rice and.

And you also, you've said that you're first in your book that your first computer was an Atari and Space Invaders was your favorite game.

Is that when you first fell in love with computers?

Yeah, I think the magical moment is definitely like playing video games with my, I have 2 younger sisters and we just like had fun together, like playing games.

But the other memory I have is my first code.

The first code I wrote, I wrote, I drew a Christmas tree.

So it's kind of, it was kind of funny that I, that the first thing I did was like this Christmas tree.

And that's when I realized, wow, you can write code to do all sorts of like really cool stuff.

So you can write programs and the programs do stuff for you.

If you think about it, that's empowering.

I don't know if that, you see like, I don't know if many people think of it that way when they first learn to program.

It's a Christmas tree, but like, it's power.

Like, you eventually, I guess you couldn't at the time, but eventually this thing, if it's interesting enough, if it's a pretty enough Christmas tree, it can be run by millions of people and bring them joy, like that little thing, and then because it's digital, it's easy to spread.

So like you just created something that's easily spreadable to millions of people.

It's hard to think that way when you're 6.

In the book you write, I am who I am because I was raised by a particular set of parents, both modern and conservative, forward thinking and yet locked in tradition.

I'm a Muslim and I feel I'm stronger and more centered for it, I adhere to the values of my religion, even if I'm not as dutiful as I once was.

And I am a new American and I'm thriving on the energy, vitality, and entrepreneurial spirit of this great country.

What have you learned about life from them?

So both my parents, they're Egyptian, but they moved to Kuwait right out of, they actually, there's a cute story about how they met.

So she signed up to take his COBOL programming class.

And he tried to date her and she was like, no, no, no, I don't date.

Those cobalt guys know how to impress a lady.

So yeah, so what have you learned from them?

1 of the core values in our family is just hard work.

And that's something that's definitely stayed with me, both as a professional, but also in my personal life.

But I also think my mom, my mom always used to like, I don't know, it was like unconditional love.

Like I just knew my parents would be there for me, kind of regardless of what I chose to do.

And they got tested on it because I kind of challenged, you know, I challenged cultural norms and I kind of took a different path, I guess, than what's expected of, you know, a woman in the Middle East.

And I, you know, they still love me, which is, I'm so grateful for that.

When was like a moment that was the most challenging for them?

Which moment where they had to come face to face with the fact that you're a bit of a rebel?

I think The first big moment was when I had just gotten married, but I decided to go do my PhD at Cambridge University.

And because my husband at the time, he's now my ex, ran a company in Cairo, he was gonna stay in Egypt.

So it was gonna be a long distance relationship.

And that's very unusual in the Middle East for a woman to just head out and kind of, you know, pursue her career.

And so my dad and my parents-in-law both said, you know, we do not approve of you doing this, but now you're under the jurisdiction of your husband, so he can make the call.

He said, you know, this is your dream come true.

You've always wanted to do a PhD, I'm gonna support you.

So I think that was the first time where, you know, I challenged the cultural norms.

What's the biggest culture shock from there to Cambridge, to London?

Well, that was also during right around September 11th.

So everyone thought that there was gonna be a third world war.

It was really like, and I, at the time, I used to wear the hijab, so I was very visibly Muslim.

And so my parents just were, they were afraid for my safety.

But anyways, when I got to Cambridge, because I was so scared, I decided to take off my headscarf and wear a hat instead.

So I just went to class wearing these British hats, which was, in my opinion, actually worse than just showing up in a headscarf, because it was just so awkward, right?

Like sitting in class with all these little heads.

So after a few weeks of doing that, I was like, to heck with that.

I'm just gonna go back to wearing my headscarf.

Yeah, you wore the hijab, so starting in 2000 and for 12 years after.

So always, whenever you're in public, you have to wear the

Can you speak to that, to the hijab, maybe your mixed feelings about it?

Like what does it represent in its best case?

What does it represent in the worst case?

Yeah, You know, I think there's a lot of, I guess I'll first start by saying I wore it voluntarily.

And in fact, I was 1 of the very first women in my family to decide to put on the hijab.

And my family thought it was really odd, right?

Like they were like, why do you want to put this on?

And at its best, it's a sign of modesty, humility.

People are like, why are you wearing a suit?

It's a step back into some kind of tradition, a respect for tradition of sorts.

So you said because it's by choice, you're kind of free to make that choice to celebrate a tradition of modesty.

I remember I would really match the color of my headscarf with what I was wearing.

It was a form of self-expression, and at its best, I loved wearing it.

You know, I have a lot of questions around how we practice religion and religion, and I think also it was a time where I was spending a lot of time going back and forth between the U.S.

And I started meeting a lot of people in the U.S.

Who were just amazing people, very purpose-driven, people who have very strong core values, But they're not Muslim.

And so that was when I just had a lot of questions.

And politically, also the situation in Egypt was when the Muslim Brotherhood ran the country and I didn't agree with their ideology.

It was at a time when I was going through a divorce.

Like it was like just the perfect storm of like political, personal conditions where I was like, this doesn't feel like me anymore.

And it took a lot of courage to take it off because culturally it's not, it's okay if you don't wear it, but it's really not okay to wear it and then take it off.

But you're still, so you have to do that while still maintaining a deep core and pride in the origins, in your origin story.

So still being Egyptian, still being a Muslim.

Right, and being, I think, generally like faith-driven, but

But what that means changes year by year for you.

What would you say is the role of faith in that part of the world?

Yeah, I mean, I think there is something really powerful about just believing that there's a bigger force.

You know, there's a kind of surrendering, I guess, that comes with religion.

And you surrender and you have this deep conviction that it's gonna be okay, right?

Like the universe is out to do amazing things for you and it's gonna be okay.

Like even when you're going through adversity, you just know that it's gonna work out.

Yeah, it gives you like an inner peace, a calmness.

Yeah, it's faith in all the meanings of that word.

Faith that everything is going to be okay.

And it is because time passes and time cures all things.

I'm a true believer of this, that something at a specific moment in time can look like it's catastrophic and it's not what you wanted in life, da-da-da-da.

But then time passes and you look back and there's a silver lining, right?

It maybe closed the door, but it opened a new door for you.

And so I'm a true believer in that, that there's a silver lining in almost anything in life.

You just have to have this faith or conviction that it's gonna work out.

Yeah, such a beautiful way to see a shitty feeling.

So if you feel shitty about a current situation, I mean, it almost is always true, unless it's the cliche thing of if it doesn't kill you, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

It does seem that over time, when you take a perspective on things, the hardest moments and periods of your life are the most meaningful.

So over time you get to have that perspective.

What about, because you mentioned Kuwait, what about, let me ask you about war.

What's the role of war and peace, maybe even the big love and hate in that part of the world, because it does seem to be a part of the world where there's turmoil.

There was turmoil, there's still turmoil.

It's such a waste of human resources and, yeah, and human mindshare.

I mean, at the end of the day, we all kind of want the same things.

We want, you know, we want human connection.

We want to feel, you know, a life of purpose.

And I just find it baffling, honestly, that we are still having to grapple with that.

You know, I grew up, I'm Egyptian, American now, but you know, originally from Egypt.

And when I first got to Cambridge, it turned out my office mate, like my PhD kind of, you know, she ended up, you know, we ended up becoming friends, but she was from Israel.

And we didn't know, yeah, we didn't know how it was gonna be like.

Did you guys sit there just staring at each other for a bit?

Actually, she, because I arrived before she did, and it turns out she emailed our PhD advisor and asked him if she thought it was gonna be okay.

Yeah, and Peter Robinson, our PhD advisor was like, yeah, like this is an academic institution, just show up.

Like we both had our kids during our PhD.

We were both doing artificial emotional intelligence.

We just had so—the culture was so similar.

It was just, I was like, why on earth are our countries, why is there all this like war and tension?

And I think it falls back to the narrative, right?

If you change the narrative, like whoever creates this narrative of war, I don't know.

Yeah, that's 1 solution, the good women, because there's also evil women in

But yes, yes, there could be less war if women ran the world.

The other aspect is, it doesn't matter the gender, the people in power, you know, I get to see this with Ukraine and Russia, different parts of the world around that conflict now.

And that's happening in Yemen as well and everywhere else.

There's these narratives told by the leaders to the populace and those narratives take hold and everybody believes that and they have a distorted view of the humanity on the other side.

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Rana el Kaliouby: Emotion AI, Social Robots, and Self-Driving Cars | Lex Fridman Podcast #322