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EPISODE LINKS:
Roger's Instagram: https://instagram.com/rogergracie/
Roger's Website: https://rogergracie.com/
Roger's Online Jiu Jitsu: https://rogergracietv.com/
Roger's match against Marcus "Buchecha" Almeida: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L-Ni7bFAHg
Watch full matches at FloGrappling: https://flograppling.com

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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
0:25 - The moments before a match
8:16 - Confidence
22:41 - Greatest jiu jitsu match of all time
44:03 - Renzo Gracie
56:20 - Braveheart
57:43 - Self-belief
1:11:49 - Cross-collar choke
1:15:52 - Mount position
1:32:06 - How to progress in jiu jitsu
1:34:21 - Best submission in jiu jitsu
1:38:54 - The greatest competitor of all time
1:41:00 - Roger's statistics
1:48:56 - MMA vs jiu jitsu
1:57:24 - Gordon Ryan
2:09:50 - John Danaher
2:12:22 - Bear fight
2:15:20 - Tie
2:25:52 - Advice for beginners
2:35:12 - Drilling
2:43:08 - Roger vs Bear, Lion, Gorilla, and Anaconda
2:48:13 - Advice for young people
2:58:01 - Love

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In my mind, I have to tap everybody else.

The following is a conversation with Hodger Gracie, widely considered to be the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time.

To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description.

And now, dear friends, here's Hodger Gracie.

Let's start with possibly the greatest match in jujitsu history, your second match against Buchesha.

Hanzo posted on Instagram this calm walk towards the mat.

Well, Let's go to that match in particular.

You've been away from competition, facing probably 1 of the greatest, and at that time, many people considered the greatest jiu-jitsu competitor of all time in Buchecha.

Here's the old man, the old timer, getting back out there.

Yeah, I think that's the first time since probably I got my black belt that I wasn't the favorite to walk into a fight, I have to say.

Like a lot of people thought, consider him the favorite.

You know, I was out of competition for a while, he was just winning everything.

So, you know, you're saying about the walk, like for me, you know, the fight starts way before the referee say go, you know.

It's all the focus and concentration that I think is very important for me to start before.

Many times I pass like great friends and I couldn't see anyone.

They're trying to talk to you and I'm like, I'm 100% focused on my opponent already even though that I cannot even see him in front of me.

So I think that's for me was always very important to try to clear my mind out from everything.

Are you visualizing the opponent or are you just clearing?

Is it like a calm river with birds chirping?

Okay, and that's what we see in that calmness, is just blankness.

How hard is it to achieve that blankness?

I think I don't remember when I'll say probably as a black belt, I try to focus like that, not to think, because it's probably something you learn, is the more you think, the more nervous you get.

And there's nothing that you're gonna gain by thinking of the fight or the possibilities, what you can do, what can go wrong, what can go right, because it's unpredictable.

And you discover that if you just let those nervous feelings go and empty your mind, it actually is pretty effective.

It's, you know, you kind of control your emotion, control the adrenaline on your body up to a level.

So it absolutely helps you focus in the fight.

I've learned that in jiu-jitsu and in general in life, that whenever something feels really shitty, you can just like take that thought and not think about it.

Like I do that on long runs or a fast run.

Or yeah, in jiu-jitsu, especially when I'm getting older, out of shape, that feeling of exhaustion.

Well, you can always get to the feeling of exhaustion.

You can just not think about it, not think about being exhausted.

I think maybe in the face of exhaustion, all the fears start to creep in, maybe your muscles tighten up, I don't know.

But it's kind of funny how you can just take that thought and let go of it.

So you get, as a black belt competitor, you get used to, you get good at letting go of any thoughts.

When you mentioned to exhaustion is, I mean, that's another good example of it.

It's, you know, there's a lot of times in the fight, you're getting tired and you're getting pretty tired.

So it's like the last thing you wanna think of it is how tired you are.

It's- There's no value thinking about it.

So when you're like, you know, many minutes into the match and you're slowly moving as you sometimes do, tying your belt, catching your breath, you're not thinking about anything.

I'm trying to save everything to the fight.

It's every move unnecessary, it's just gonna make you more tired or it's gonna take something out of you.

Like, you know, I try to calculate every single move I make, save as much energy as I can, so I can fully, you know, be focused 100% in the fight.

And that's instinctual, like minimizing the amount of moves.

You're not like explicitly thinking, should I do this or not?

You're just, just don't move unless it's absolutely required.

Yeah, because fight, you cannot really, there's not really time to think much.

You know, it's like, your instincts are playing.

It's like, you already have your weapons, let's say.

You know, the things that you do, it's just to wait for the perfect moment.

The beauty of it is there's the right moment to everything.

If you feel 1 second too late, it doesn't work.

And for that, you have to be fully focused in what you're doing, because 1 second, you're out.

But you're not exactly known as somebody that moves super quickly, so the moment, it's not about how quickly you move, it's about the right moment, so you move slowly.

Yeah, it's not like speed, it's not like you have to move at the speed of light.

It's the move itself at that precise moment.

It doesn't have to be super fast because your opponent's not moving super fast, so it's a combination of movement between you and him.

I mean, the same thing happens in judo, and the movement can be really small.

Judo is a bit more explosive, you know, the moves are slightly faster, so it does require a bit more explosiveness in Judo.

But even just the right timing for an off balance.

Yeah, it's not that the moving, the speed is not gonna count that much.

It's the timing that you initiate that move.

There's nothing more beautiful than like Olympic level athletes going at it in the Olympics and a perfect

And it's just, and you see 1 man's life flash before his eyes and realize, like, I'm supposed to be the top 3 person in the world that I just find, and they have this look on their face, like, I don't know what just happened.

You don't see that, I guess you see that in boxing, knockouts and stuff like that.

You don't know what the hell just happened.

Yeah, it's that precise moment of movement that you get caught.

Like it's that 1 split second, that's it.

Because judo has, because of the explosiveness, because of the points scoring system that incentivizes these giant throws, has these moments where everything just turns in a single moment.

So it's, because I think regarding the submission is not just 1 precise movement that change everything.

I think judo is the takedown that counts as a submission, like Ippon, fight over.

So you will score points, but I think in terms of submission you need to get to a dominant position first and then the submission will come slowly.

Okay, let's go back to that guy with his mind.

So actually in the weeks leading up to it, in the days, in the hours, in the minutes, is there some fear in you leading up to this?

I mean, I'm not gonna say that I'm fearless because everybody fears something, you know?

The fear is there, but it's like, how much you let that control you.

I think I was a lot more confident than fearful, for sure, walking into that fight.

Like, I was pretty confident that I could beat him.

Not, you can take anyone in the world, but is there a specific strategic, like talking to Donahair, he believes that there's no such thing as confidence, or rather, the way you get confidence is through data, like that you have proven yourself effective in previous situations, but with Buchecha, you don't have much data.

It was a very, the first time you faced him was a very tough, that was also 1 of the greatest matches of all time, it was very tough.

So doesn't that creep in, like that doubt, because you don't have enough data to be confident based

Yeah, I mean, okay, if I never have fought before, you know, suddenly walk into a fight with someone like that, then would I be that confident?

You know, so that history of what we've been doing, what we've been achieving, just gives you confidence.

If that was my first fight ever, I probably wouldn't be that confident.

You don't have the fear or the actual physical experience, the psychological experience of being rusty, of being out of competition?

So you, okay, so you simulate some aspect of that in the training?

Yeah, the training will tell you how you are.

Did you increase the intensity of the training leading up to this?

Let's say compared to the first fight, the second was a lot more confidence because, you know, like I say on training, the training for the first fight, they were terrible.

I think I was focusing on MMA for a while, for a couple of months, and I wasn't really focusing the gi and by the time I accept the fight and start training, like all my responses on training were off.

Like all my training partners that I used to train with that I destroyed, I mean now they're like, they're beating me.

You know, it's like I cannot beat them the way I was used to.

So I knew something was not right for the first fight.

But then it's, you know, no points, it's submission or draw.

Yeah, for people who don't know, it was in Munter Morris, which is a 20 minute match, submission only.

So there's no, the winner is determined only by submission.

So physically I was, I wasn't myself on that fight.

I was tired and my body wasn't responding.

Anyway, so that, so the confidence was different from the first, the second.

I think I was confident enough that I wouldn't get tapped out on the first, that I was still gonna fight because he has to tap me out to beat me.

I'm confident enough on my defense that he will not help me out.

But in terms of winning, you know, walking to the second fight, I was a lot more confident.

What can you say about that feeling when something's not right?

You know, it's a big test because it's like being really tired.

It's like a lot of people crack because they just feel they cannot give in more.

That's always the way you thought of all jiu-jitsu?

It's not giving up, it's not tapping, that's just stupid.

Especially during training, I get caught, I tap.

I've never, ever hurt myself by not tapping.

I get, you get angry, you know, it's train hard, you know, improve, make yourself better.

Accept that you made a mistake, give up, tap, then try harder.

So, you know, the not tapping, it's you're sacrificing your body and you know, you will never be the same.

Like if you let your elbow popped, the elbow will never ever be the same ever.

You let yourself go to sleep, your resistance drops.

So it's everybody has a limit of resistance until they, you know, to resist a choke before you pass out.

The moment that you go to sleep, that resistance will drop.

I've never heard anyone say, yeah, that's awesome.

because people usually say it's- No, it's the same way you're getting knocked out.

You get knocked out the first time, your resistance drops, your jaw gets weaker.

So- Just for the record, I've never gone to sleep again.

Which means my resistance is high, right?

Or maybe, In my case, I think my understanding of when I'm screwed is pretty good.

Yeah, 1 of the things I regret the most about my jiu-jitsu journey is not having given enough time to being in really bad positions.

Like the better I got, I think the less I started being in bad positions,

You spar, that's like, that is how you train.

When you spar, it's difficult to be in bad positions a lot.

You train with better people, but I mean, let's say 5, 6 men in rows, how long you gonna be in a really bad position?

So you don't really have time to develop.

That's why people, they don't, you know, they don't train in that position because you have to start there over and over again to be used to it.

I just didn't have that mindset, I think.

I think you start, I mean, part of the fun of Jiu-Jitsu is as you get better and better, you have certain people you go with, you have these puzzles that you've figured out that you're playing, very specific details you're working out, you're trying to improve your main techniques and so on.

But yeah, just the percentage of time you spend being submitted or even going against like lower ranks, trying to escape basic submissions is low.

I don't know if that's true for most people, probably is, right?

Most people have very bad defense because they don't allow themselves to be there because I mean, who wants to get tapped?

Because you will, until you work on your defense, of course you're gonna get tapped or you're not gonna escape, you're gonna struggle to escape.

I regret it most because of the effect it clearly had on how I competed.

It was clear that my competition was constantly driven by conservative thinking, like don't take risks.

I think because of a weak defense, honestly.

And I think a lot of any of the fear, like for example, exhaustion was accompanied by fear because of weak defense, I think.

If I were to psychoanalyze myself, and I regret it, I regret it a lot.

But speaking of which, I don't think anyone's ever submitted you in competition.

First I was winning that fight by a large, I mean, I think by 6 points or 4, something like that, but I was like, I was

Whoever you are, please, let's do a podcast now, we'll

No, but what do you attribute to that, too?

You were saying you were confident that the top of the world, the number 1, Buchester would not submit you.

So where is that confidence grounded and what do you attribute the fact that nobody was able to submit you?

Like my defense is good because I practice over and over again.

As much as I practice all my offensive position.

So it's, you know, you have to train both equally.

It's not just being in a good position, you have to be in bad.

So I think that's a very strong part of my game.

You know, to be a complete fighter, you know, a complete martial artist, you have to be good in every single position, every single 1.

Those are the, you know, you have a weakness.

So it's, you know, to be complete, you should have no weakness.

So that was always my, you know, I was always very particular on that, like it's where my weakness, where am I, what I don't feel good at it.

If you put me in a position where I struggle, how do I escape, how do I get out?

Everything, any submission locked, pinning position, you know, back mount, everything.

It doesn't matter which position I'm at, I practice over and over again.

So that when I, if I get there in a fighting situation, I will know how to get out.

At least I'll have a direction, you know, I will know this is my way out.

Do you practice both escaping the bad position and the transition into the bad position, avoiding it, because that's how it happens.

You know, Jiu-Jitsu, you start in a neutral position.

No, the transition then becomes the fight itself.

It's when you're there, then you have to know how to get out.

Stopping the person getting there is something different.

But stopping the person is easier to practice because that comes naturally in training.

Like what was your biggest weakness throughout your, like just remembering what was annoying to you to figure out?

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Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #343