- The speaker receives links to B2B tech company homepages and is asked for feedback, but they explain that they may not be the right person to ask unless they are the target buyer.
- It is stated that it doesn't matter if the website is easily understandable to everyone, as long as it resonates with the target buyers and they understand the product's value.
- The importance of positioning in B2B tech companies is highlighted, as it can affect the success of the product.
- The speaker introduces April Dunford, an expert on product positioning, and discusses her background and experience in helping companies with positioning.
- The speaker then introduces John Cutler from podcast sponsor Amplitude, who discusses the company's focus on supporting the full product loop and their recent expansion into experimentation and CDP.
- Ashley Flynn from Flatfile talks about the importance of flawless data onboarding and how it can impact customer retention and growth for B2B SaaS companies.
- April Dunford discusses her journey to becoming a positioning expert and her focus on helping B2B tech companies with their positioning.
- She mentions the interesting and unusual companies she has worked with, such as Epic Games and Blue Light Analytics.
- The speaker asks how to identify a positioning problem, and April explains that weak positioning can affect the entire pipeline and hinder marketing efforts.

- Weak positioning in the early stages of the sales pipeline can result in poor marketing response and sluggishness in sales.
- Sales teams may struggle to effectively sell a product with incorrect positioning, leading to customer churn.
- Positioning is the definition of how a product is the best at delivering value to a specific target market.
- Misalignment within the company is a common issue with positioning, with different departments having different understandings.
- Nailing positioning feels like magic and is clear and obvious to customers.
- Positioning is not static and should be regularly checked and adjusted as the product and market evolve.

- Positioning statements should resonate with the target buyers, even if others don't understand it
- The true test of positioning is if a qualified prospect gets excited and wants to buy
- The first step in positioning is understanding what the company has to position against, including the status quo and alternatives
- Differentiated value is critical in positioning, and it should be based on capabilities that the alternatives don't have
- Mapping these capabilities to value themes helps identify differentiated value
- Understanding the characteristics of target accounts that value the differentiated value is important
- Market category is the context in which the product is positioned to make the value obvious to the target audience

- HelpScout sells software for customer success in a competitive market with Zendesk as the main competitor.
- HelpScout differentiates itself by offering features focused on delivering amazing customer service, such as a shared inbox and personalized interactions.
- Their value proposition is centered around delivering exceptional customer service and deepening customer relationships.
- Direct-to-consumer and e-commerce brands are the ideal fit for HelpScout, as they see customer service as a way to drive growth through customer loyalty.
- The positioning process involves identifying competitors, differentiators, target customers, and the market they aim to win.
- The output of the process is a document that serves as a starting point for marketing messaging and a sales narrative that can be used in pitches and demos.
- It is crucial to have a clear differentiator and articulate the value it provides to customers in order to justify their decision and win the deal.

- Positioning is crucial for companies to articulate why they are the best solution for a specific customer
- Positioning is different from messaging and branding, but it is a fundamental input to messaging and branding
- Companies that lack clear positioning may struggle to communicate their value and target market effectively
- Some companies may need help with positioning if they have not thought about it or if there is a lot at stake, such as hiring salespeople or making a big marketing investment
- The process of positioning can be done in a week-long sprint, but companies can also do it on their own in a couple of days if they have the right information and alignment within the team
- The speaker works with both larger companies and those at the early to mid-stage of growth, but not with very early-stage companies that are not ready for tight positioning.

- In the early stages of a product, it is important to have a positioning thesis and go through a positioning exercise.
- It is okay to keep the positioning loose and allow the market to guide you towards the right direction.
- Once a pattern starts to emerge and you have a clear understanding of who your target market is, you can tighten up your positioning and focus on that market.
- Segmentation in B2B is different from consumer segmentation, and it is important to understand the characteristics of the companies that love your product.
- Personas are important in B2B, but it is also necessary to consider the different people involved in the decision-making process and their roles.

- Marketing teams often create personas for different types of people, but the most important persona is the champion in the account.
- The champion's job is to get consensus and champion the deal across everyone involved, including the economic buyer.
- If the positioning doesn't resonate with the champion, the company won't even make it on the shortlist.
- It is a waste of time to create personas for multiple individuals when the focus should be on understanding and arming the champion persona.
- April Dunford's book, "Obviously Awesome," provides more insights on this topic.
- April can be found on her website, AprilDunford.com, and on social media platforms like LinkedIn and Twitter.
- April appreciates smart interactions on Twitter that help clarify her thinking and welcomes engagement with her followers.

- The speaker receives links to B2B tech company homepages and discusses the importance of targeting the right buyer for feedback.
- Positioning in B2B tech companies is crucial for success and can affect the entire sales pipeline.
- April Dunford, an expert on product positioning, is introduced and her experience in helping companies with positioning is highlighted.
- John Cutler from podcast sponsor Amplitude discusses their focus on supporting the full product loop and recent expansion into experimentation and CDP.
- Ashley Flynn from Flatfile talks about the importance of flawless data onboarding for B2B SaaS companies.
- Weak positioning can hinder marketing efforts and result in poor sales performance and customer churn.
- Positioning is the definition of how a product delivers value to a specific target market and should be regularly checked and adjusted.
- The true test of positioning is if a qualified prospect gets excited and wants to buy.
- The first step in positioning is understanding the competition and identifying differentiators and target customers.
- HelpScout differentiates itself in the customer success software market by offering features focused on delivering exceptional customer service.
- Direct-to-consumer and e-commerce brands are ideal customers for HelpScout.
- The positioning process involves identifying competitors, differentiators, target customers, and the market to win.
- Clear differentiators and articulating value are crucial for winning deals.
- Positioning is different from messaging and branding but is an important input to both.
- Lack of clear positioning can hinder effective communication of value and target market.
- The positioning process can be done in a week-long sprint or a couple of days with the right information and team alignment.
- The speaker works with larger companies and those at the early to mid-stage of growth.
- In the early stages, it is important to have a positioning thesis and allow the market to guide towards the right direction.
- Understanding the characteristics of companies that love the product is important in B2B segmentation.
- Personas are important, with the champion persona being the most crucial in the decision-making process.
- April Dunford's book, "Obviously Awesome," provides more insights on positioning.

April Dunford is the author of the must-read best-selling book Obviously Awesome, a definitive guide to product positioning. She spent 25 years leading marketing, product, and sales teams and now runs her own consulting firm, helping companies of all shapes and sizes nail their positioning. April has worked hands-on with over 200 companies on positioning, including Google, IBM, Postman, and Epic Games. In this episode, April delves into the intricacies of positioning, including its distinction from messaging and branding, and shares real-world examples of products with strong and weak positioning. Additionally, April shares her insights on when to bring in a professional and the key differences between segmentation and personas. Don't miss this opportunity to gain valuable knowledge from a true industry leader.

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Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/april-dunford-on-product-positioning-segmentation-and-optimizing-your-sales-process/#transcript

Where to find April:
• Website: https://aprildunford.com
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/aprildunford 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aprildunford 

Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com
• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) April's guest post on Lenny's Newsletter
(03:42) April's background
(07:36) Interesting companies April has worked with
(12:17) Defining positioning
(15:31) Company misalignment vs. positioning issues
(17:42) How to assess if your product’s positioning is weak or strong
(19:50) Examples of companies with great product positioning
(22:32) The essential five steps to figuring out your product’s positioning
(29:25) Help Scout's positioning process
(35:54) How important is having a differentiator?
(40:12) The difference between positioning vs. messaging vs. branding
(46:29) When to hire a professional
(48:32) How long does product positioning take? 
(54:41) What’s the difference between segmentation and personas?
(01:02:50) Where to find April


References:
• Obviously Awesome: How to Nail Product Positioning so Customers Get It, Buy It, Love It: https://www.aprildunford.com/obviously-awesome 
• April’s guest post on Lenny's Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/positioning
• Epic Games: https://www.epicgames.com/site/en-US/home
• Bluelight Analytics: https://www.bluelightanalytics.com/
• Postman: https://www.postman.com/
• Startupfest: https://startupfestival.com/
• Help Scout: https://www.helpscout.com/
• Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/


Thank you to our sponsors:
• Amplitude: https://amplitude.com/
• Flatfile: https://flatfile.com/Lenny
• Productboard: https://Productboard.com/

A lot of times people will send me a link to their homepage and they'll say, what do you think?

And the problem with B2B tech companies is like, well, unless I'm your buyer, I'm not the right person to ask.

So you can have companies like people will say, well, you know, I looked at the website

You know, if I'm selling a deeply technical thing to deeply technical buyers, It's okay if your grandmother doesn't understand what it is when they get there.

What matters is, does it resonate for your buyers?

And when they land there, do they go, oh yeah, I get what this is and that seems like a thing I should have.

If your product isn't doing well, there's a chance that it may not be the product that's the problem.

And there's no 1 I've learned more from about how to very practically and tactically think about your positioning than from April Dunford.

April is the best-selling author of the book Obviously Awesome, which many consider an industry bible on product positioning.

She's also led teams at 7 successful B2B startups, worked with over 200 companies, helping them nail their positioning, and has almost certainly done more positioning work than any human alive.

Also, April's guest post in my newsletter, A Quick Start Guide to Positioning, is still 1 of the most popular posts of all time in my newsletter, and 1 I share often with founders.

I had a total blast speaking with April, and I hope you learn as much from this conversation as I did.

I'm excited to chat with my friend John Cutler from podcast sponsor Amplitude.

John, give us a behind the scenes at Amplitude.

When most people think of Amplitude, they think of product analytics, But now you're getting into experimentation and you even just launched a CDP.

Well, we've always thought of Amplitude as being about supporting the full product loop.

Think collect data, inform bets, ship experiments, and learn.

So The big aha was seeing how many customers were using Amplitude to analyze experiments, use segments for outreach, and send data to other destinations.

Experiment in CDP came out of listening to and observing our customers.

And supporting growth and learning has always been Amplitude's core focus, right?

Yeah, so Amplitude tries to meet customers where they are.

We just launched starter templates and have a great scholarship program for startups.

There's never been a more important time for growth.

Thanks for joining us, Jon, and head to Amplitude.com to get started.

Hey, Ashley, head of marketing at Flatfile.

How many B2B SaaS companies would you estimate need to import CSV files from their customers?

screw that up, and what happens when they do?

Well, based on our data, about a third of people will consider switching to another company after just 1 bad experience during onboarding.

So if your CSE importer doesn't work right, which is super common considering customer files are chock full of unexpected data and formatting, they'll leave.

I've consistently seen that improving onboarding is 1 of the highest leverage opportunities for both sign-up conversion and increasing long-term retention.

Getting people to your aha moment more quickly and reliably is so incredibly important.

It's incredible to see how our customers like Square, Spotify, and Zora are able to grow their businesses on top of Flatfile.

This is because flawless data onboarding acts like a catalyst to get them and their customers where they need to go faster.

If you'd like to learn more or get started, check out Flatfile at flatfile.com slash Lenny.

I am humbled to chat with you and to learn from you.

Lenny, you're the legend around here, not me.

You're like, you're like, you're like Madonna.

I was also going to say that your guest post on positioning on my newsletter is still in the top 20 most popular all-time posts.

And so I'm just excited to dive a lot deeper on this topic.

So for listeners who maybe aren't super familiar with your background and how you came to be such an expert on positioning, could you just kind of briefly share your journey to what you do today?

So my background is I didn't study marketing in school.

I studied engineering straight out of engineering school.

I got a job, a product marketing job at a startup, and I've been doing this a long time.

So this was back when startups weren't even cool and we just called them small companies.

So I got a job at a little company and then that company, I was assigned to a product that was kind of a loser and we weren't selling very much.

We ended up repositioning it and the thing took off and got hugely successful.

That company got acquired, my boss quit and they made me the vice president of marketing.

And then I decided, well, this is my jam.

And in particular, we had a handful of products there that the positioning also seemed kind of weak.

And so I kind of embarked on this journey of like, hey, like positioning seems to be really important because when we get it wrong, everything sucks.

And when we get it right, you know, we all make all kinds of money.

So I should figure out how to do this properly.

And so I read a bunch of books, took a bunch of courses.

And what I discovered is that, you know, positioning is this foundational marketing concept, but we didn't really have a methodology for doing it.

And so from that point forward, I became kind of a repeat vice president of marketing at a series of startups.

So I think I did 7 and 6 of those got acquired.

So I repositioned a lot of products across that.

And positioning became sort of my specialty.

Basically, if you were looking for a vice president of marketing and I came into the interview, like the reason you hired me is because your positioning was crappy and I could talk intelligently about how we were gonna fix that.

And then about 5, 6 years ago I, you know, I decided I wanted to go do something different and so I made the switch to consulting and now that's all I do.

So I basically do positioning even more specifically, though, I'm really focused on, I only do tech companies.

I only do B2B companies because my background is all really B2B and I don't really get consumer.

Like for the most part, it's what I would call a growth stage startup, like kind of, you know, post series A, series B.

But occasionally I do some really, really big companies that have weird positioning stuff going on, like they've acquired a bunch of things and they're trying to turn it into a business unit or something.

How many companies have you worked with at this point and helped with positioning?

So yeah, like I suspect that I have done more positioning than anybody on the planet.

But I certainly have positioned more B2B tech companies than anybody.

And like, I don't know, I don't know how anybody's going to get me on that 1.

So I'm excited to learn a lot from, from our conversation along those lines.

I'm curious, what's kind of the, the most interesting or unusual company that you've worked with?

You know, the fun part about positioning is that, you know, when you do this kind of work, you get to kind of dive into a market that maybe you haven't thought very much about, you know?

So it's like this week, I'm going to drop some names, but like this week I'm working with Epic Games on a product that they have called Twinmotion, which is absolutely mind-blowing tech.

But I don't, you know, I don't come from that world of doing, you know, three-dimensional graphic stuff.

And so it's fun to just do a big, deep dive on that and look at everything in the space and look at what's possible and what isn't possible there.

And so I've done everything from stuff like that to like I come from databases.

And so I have a lot of companies doing deep data stuff and data analytics stuff, which I find really interesting and cool.

But then occasionally you'll get 1 that like makes you think about your life differently.

Like I did 1 a year or so ago and the company's called Blue Light Analytics.

And what they do is like technology that gets, that's for helping certain kinds of dentistry instruments work better.

And so I didn't really think much about what happens in the dentist office until I went to do this workshop.

And then we spent the whole time talking about like, it's terrifying, actually, like half the stuff that a dentist does in your mouth is very likely to fail because the equipment is terrible and the way they actually do things like cure fillings is actually really terrible.

And so sometimes I learn things in these workshops that I wish I didn't know.

Like I'm a little bit scared going to the dentist now.

I thought blue light was gonna be like not getting exposed to blue light when you're trying to get asleep.

That would maybe not make me so scared of the dentist.

How do you know that you have a positioning problem and that you should focus on positioning.

And I think what what people want and I want this to like what I wish we had was like a metric right that I could say, hey, when you start seeing this metric go in this direction, then you know the positioning is bad.

But unfortunately, weak positioning kind of gets you all the way across the pipeline.

You know, it's weak positioning hurts you in the early stages of the pipeline and that people don't really get what you are, so they're not responding to your marketing the way they should.

And you'll get this sluggishness in the middle of your pipeline, like particularly if you have salespeople, you'll, you know, the light doesn't come on until they've had 3 calls with the sales rep and then the light comes on And then sometimes what you'll get is your sales team is actually really good at selling the stuff, but the positioning is wrong.

So, you know, you close a lot of deals, but then people get using the product.

They're like, wait a minute, this isn't the thing that I thought it was, or it doesn't do what I expected it to do.

So all your metrics look bad and you can only tell they look bad by comparing them to your own metrics.

And so it's really hard to measure if the positioning isn't working or not.

Back when I used to be VP Marketing, what I would do to assess this is, you know, I'd be the brand new VP marketing, I'd come on board and I'd say, well, you know, I'm just going to go hang out with sales for a bit.

And you can really hear it in sales calls, like particularly in an initial sales call with a client.

And what you'll hear is things like the customer comes on, your sales rep comes on and your sales reps like doing a great job pitching the product like oh we got this thing and it does this that and the other thing and you know And they'll get certain way through the pitch and that you can see the customers just like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just back it up and pitch it to me again.

That's probably the most common 1 I get is, huh, could you just say that again?

Could you just back up to the beginning and do that thing from the beginning?

Sometimes what you'll get is the even worse 1 is customer thinks they know exactly what you are, but you ain't that.

So, so you'll get people say, yeah, I get it.

You're like, oh, actually no, we're not like Salesforce.

Now let me back up and start from the beginning.

Or you'll get this, and this 1 is actually terrible, where people will say, well I get it, I mean I totally get it, I totally get what you do, I just don't get why anyone would pay for that.

Like, you know, I can do that in a spreadsheet.

Like, why would I buy, like, I don't get.

So they think they get what you do, but they don't really understand the value.

And so if you start hearing stuff like that in an initial sales call, those are usually good signs that the positioning is weak.

Backing up a little bit, we jumped right in.

I'm curious how you even describe positioning.

What the heck is positioning and broadly just why is it important for people?

So positioning is really, in my opinion, is really misunderstood, Which is funny because it's not a new concept.

We've been talking about positioning since the 80s.

But you know, like a lot of things in marketing, like people have stretched the definition or there's different definitions.

Like even among marketing people, like if I had a dozen vice presidents of marketing together in a room and said, Hey, define positioning.

Positioning defines how your product is the best in the world at delivering some value that a well-defined set of companies care a lot about.

So put another way, it encompasses a lot of things.

It defines, you know, what are the alternatives to what you do?

What value can you deliver that no other product on the market can?

And by the way, who cares a lot about that value?

So who is it that you're trying to target?

And then it also encompasses the definition of your market category or what market is it that you intend to win?

That is such a simple way of thinking about it.

Something that I've been thinking about is this isn't something just founders should care about.

PMs on teams that are building a product should think about this.

This applies across the board, basically to any product, whether it's, you know, the entire company or just 1 feature.

Well, this is 1 of the, this is 1 of the things where I think people get into weak positioning.

Like 1 of the things that happens in companies is, and I see this a lot, where the founder has an idea what the positioning is, but then you go to the marketing department and it's a little bit different, not a lot different, but a little bit different.

And then you sit in on the sales pitch and that's a little bit different again.

And then you walk over the product team and they're thinking about it slightly differently.

So I think a lot of weak positioning comes from the fact that we don't have perfect alignment across the team on all these piece parts of positioning.

So In the work I do, and even back when I was a VP marketing, if we're going to fix this thing, we can't just have the marketing department or just the product managers sit down and cook up new positioning and then heave it over the wall to everybody else.

So if we're going to do positioning well and then actually have that positioning stick and get adopted the way we want it to across the company, if we're going to do a positioning exercise, ideally we've got marketing, product sales, customer success, and anybody else we need from the executive team, particularly the CEO, together in a room when we're building it so that we can all kind of bring our expertise to the table, bring our understanding of what customers do and our product to the table, thrash around on it a little bit until we get agreement on it.

And then now we've all got, you know, agreement and alignment around it, then we can all go execute on it and we're all singing the same song.

How often do you find that the problem is misalignment within the company versus just like their positioning?

They don't actually have the right positioning and that's the problem.

I would say the majority of the time it's misalignment because what it is, is like a piece of the company has it right but the other pieces don't.

So I get 1 of 2 1 of 2 things are happening.

So sometimes what I'll get is the founder comes to me and the founder says I know exactly how to tell this story.

I know how to do whatever, but we've gotten kind of big now and I got a brand new VP marketing and I got a brand new VP sales and I just hired somebody to do product and they don't understand it the way I understand it.

And when I listen in on a sales call, what I hear is all wrong.

When I look at our marketing, what I see, that's not it.

And I've tried to get everybody in alignment and I can't.

And so I need you to come in here and facilitate a thing where we can all get in alignment.

The other 1 I get is kind of the opposite of that, where you've got a founder that used to run sales, used to do all the deals, used to do everything, had had had their arms around this market very tight at 1 point.

And then the companies grown often very quickly.

They hired a bunch of very senior people to run pieces, but at the same time, the market itself has shifted a lot.

And so I'll get approached then often by the head of product or the head of marketing that comes in and says, I don't think we have this right.

I think we're actually positioned for what the market used to be.

And I'm having a hard time getting the founder having their heads around it and everybody else on the team because we're all coming at it with different information.

And so sales sees what's happening in sales marketing, sees what's happening in marketing.

The founders getting pulled into certain deals, but not all the deals.

Products seeing what's happening in the thing.

And so again, like there's pieces of it there, but we're not all in alignment and agreement.

And so we got to get everybody together and then work through it.

What does it look like when you've nailed it?

When you like, or maybe in a good place with positioning?

It's interesting because when it's working really well, it feels like magic.

And really great positioning feels obvious.

You know, you pitch to people and they're like, of course that's it.

Like 1 of my favorite companies, this is a company I worked with a little bit a couple of years ago is Postman.

So they basically have an API platform, a platform for building and using APIs.

And just how I described that right there, it's so simple.

That's not the way they were always describing themselves.

And if you run that back 3 years ago, that's not at all what you have gotten as the pitch for Postman.

But really, really great positioning just feels like, yeah, it's so clear, it's so simple.

It's like, of course, of course, that's what it is.

If we're serious about APIs, why would we not have a platform for building and managing APIs?

Positioning is, you know, somewhat like messaging in some ways in that it's not a static thing.

Like, your product itself, it doesn't stay the same.

And so you can have good positioning that suddenly becomes bad positioning and it's not great positioning anymore or good positioning that you know goes sideways or whatever then you got to come back.

And so usually I think there's value in checking in on your positioning because it's really hard.

Again I don't have a measurement to say yes or no the positioning's working And so I think there's no harm in checking in on it, going through a process to sort of walk through it and just check in and see, like, could it be better?

Maybe this could be a lot better than it is right now.

But we just we've never sat down and actually deliberately looked at it.

Just to make it even a little more concrete, what are just some examples of good positioning statements or just the positioned companies?

A lot of times people will send me a link to their home page and they'll say, what do you think?

So you can have companies like People will say, well, you know, I looked at the website

We, you know, if I'm selling a deeply technical thing to deeply technical buyers, it's okay if your grandmother doesn't understand what it is when they get there.

When they land there, do they go, ''Oh yeah, I get what this is and that's that seems like a thing I should have.'' A lot of the companies that I really love the positioning of, you would go and look at it and say, I don't know, man.

I'm not even sure I really understand what that is.

Like if you didn't have anything to do with APIs and you don't know what the fuck API was, whatever, you know, like you might land on Postman's page and go, I honestly don't get that.

You're not a person building APIs, so you don't have to understand it.

Particularly, like I've worked a lot with companies doing deep AI stuff, deep, deep digital, like analytics and deep data stuff.

And you can't tell from looking at the website whether it's working or not.

The true test of whether the positioning is working or not is if I'm sitting across from a qualified prospect and I tell the story, does the prospect get excited and want to buy something?

Any other test I think is, you know, we're bringing our own baggage into it and saying like, you know, I pick on these guys a little bit, but in Canada, there's a startup, a big startup conference.

But every year they have this thing and it's called pitch the grannies.

And you go in and your startup and you pitch the grandmothers and the grandmothers decide whether or not your pitch was any good.

And this infuriates me because I'm like, this is a terrible judge of pitching.

Like, you know, maybe if we're doing the VC pitch, in which case you're saying the VCs and the grandmothers are exactly the same, that's a little insulting.

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How to nail your product positioning | April Dunford (Obviously Awesome)