Taken from JRE #1914 w/Steve Rinella:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5gmvcluhV8synvj5H9XcEJ?si=f1563db79a0b4e0a

Have you followed the the Jaguar debate that's going on

So Defining it's 1 of the Jaguar, okay, we're a backup I'm gonna tell you an impure like I'm gonna tell you something.

It's objectively true that we had a population of Jaguars in the United States of America up until the 1800s right it's just they just were what's debated is Was it how stable was it how widespread was it some people would point to well like basically limited to southern, Arizona Some people would look and be well, West, Texas, New Mexico Southern Arizona, what about members of the Coronado Expedition drawing a distinction between lions and jaguars all the way up like toward the Platte River?

You know I mean like what are they confusing

in the more in the Southern Plains the southern Great Plains of the United States flowing across, Kansas, okay,

Instances of people mentioning things that you sort of like looking at like man They

got if they weren't talking about Jaguar what the hell they

Okay, and in a lot of times someone will say there'll be a reference to a large cat, and you can't rule out Well, maybe in the historic record the pride talking about mountain lions But what do you do in a case where you have a historic record and someone is in some oddball place Southern, Colorado?

And they're talking about they have lions and leopards and lions and leopards so it's like Guess what I'm I mean they gotta be they have to be referring to jaguars, right?

So as people get into talking about jaguar recovery of which I'm a I'm a proponent with an asterisk When people get talking about jaguar recovery, you have to define what that looks like.

And there are some who would say jaguar recovery in North America as a collaborative effort between us, Mexico, Belize, whoever else has rolled into this Jaguar recovery plan.

Jaguar recovery in North America would mean recovering them across core habitat.

So then you got to argue over what is the line, what's core habitat for jaguars.

And some people will argue, and many of them have motivation, some of them are honest, some of them have other kind of, you know, political motivation, to say that core habitat is not Arizona.

Stray males, 1 or 2 here and there, long periods of absence, it wasn't core habitat.

Other people would argue that Arizona was absolutely core habitat, and if we're gonna restore jaguars and core habitat We're gonna be restoring jaguars in some portion of the lower 48.

Meaning eventually, and recovery would look a couple ways, 1 is like protections and you would watch how jaguars are able to flow back and forth across the border.

A big question around Jaguar recovery is the border wall.

Okay, how much would a border wall impact large mammal movements?

If we don't allow recovery in that way, or we make recovery in that way difficult do we truck Jaguars up and turn them loose in Arizona, New Mexico

West Texas really you're gonna turn them loose

in such low population Abundances they have such huge home ranges.

I don't think it would ever be that there was like a jaguar problem

Yeah, I don't think you're gonna have people,

you know the Kate where where you know You might recover wolves in some area and lose two-thirds of the elk Like seemingly overnight.

I just I can't picture that That's I think

You'd lose a lot of mountain lions probably.

I think that probably a combination of both, like them killing them and then just range reduction because of this big cat.

But dude, I'm conflict averse enough where I don't want it's like Trucking them in to me is way in the future And man, it would be a political battle and you'd make a spotted owl out of the Jaguar Mmm, You'd have some level of people that just came

to hate them sons of bitches because they were

a symbol of federal overreach But them just coming across the border.

Well, that's where they think el jefe is coming through.

Yeah, that's 1 of the reasons why they call him El Jefe.

He manages to make his way through the wall.

you know for a jaguar to come hanging out in the US.

You wind up there's not like a great in recent decades.

There's not a great likelihood of establishing a habitat and having a female to breed with.


Speaker 0: The Jorogun experience. Have you followed the the Jaguar debate that's going on

Speaker 1: right now? No. It's a great 1, man. So Defining it's 1 of the Jaguar, okay, we're a backup I'm gonna tell you an impure like I'm gonna tell you something. That's like objectively true.

Speaker 2: Okay,

Speaker 1: okay? It's objectively true that we had a population of Jaguars in the United States of America up until the 1800s right it's just they just were what's debated is Was it how stable was it how widespread was it some people would point to well like basically limited to southern, Arizona Some people would look and be well, West, Texas, New Mexico Southern Arizona, what about members of the Coronado Expedition drawing a distinction between lions and jaguars all the way up like toward the Platte River?

Speaker 0: Okay, like why would they say both?

Speaker 1: You know I mean like what are they confusing

Speaker 2: the Platte River? Oh,

Speaker 0: so in the in the

Speaker 1: in the more in the Southern Plains the southern Great Plains of the United States flowing across, Kansas, okay,

Speaker 0: Oh Wow

Speaker 1: Where you have? Instances of people mentioning things that you sort of like looking at like man They

Speaker 0: got if they weren't talking about Jaguar what the hell they

Speaker 1: talking about

Speaker 3: how do they describe

Speaker 1: it leopards? Okay, and in a lot of times someone will say there'll be a reference to a large cat, and you can't rule out Well, maybe in the historic record the pride talking about mountain lions But what do you do in a case where you have a historic record and someone is in some oddball place Southern, Colorado? And they're talking about they have lions and leopards and lions and leopards so it's like Guess what I'm I mean they gotta be they have to be referring to jaguars, right? Much more widely dispersed. So as people get into talking about jaguar recovery of which I'm a I'm a proponent with an asterisk When people get talking about jaguar recovery, you have to define what that looks like.

And there are some who would say jaguar recovery in North America as a collaborative effort between us, Mexico, Belize, whoever else has rolled into this Jaguar recovery plan. Jaguar recovery in North America would mean recovering them across core habitat. Okay, that's a term you hear all

Speaker 0: the time, like core habitat.

Speaker 1: So then you got to argue over what is the line, what's core habitat for jaguars. And some people will argue, and many of them have motivation, some of them are honest, some of them have other kind of, you know, political motivation, to say that core habitat is not Arizona. That was always fringe. Stray males, 1 or 2 here and there, long periods of absence, it wasn't core habitat. Other people would argue that Arizona was absolutely core habitat, and if we're gonna restore jaguars and core habitat We're gonna be restoring jaguars in some portion of the lower 48.

Meaning eventually, and recovery would look a couple ways, 1 is like protections and you would watch how jaguars are able to flow back and forth across the border. A big question around Jaguar recovery is the border wall. Okay, how much would a border wall impact large mammal movements? So that's an aspect. If we don't allow recovery in that way, or we make recovery in that way difficult do we truck Jaguars up and turn them loose in Arizona, New Mexico

Speaker 2: Mmm,

Speaker 0: West Texas really you're gonna turn them loose

Speaker 1: right love it dude. I love them, and I honestly don't think

Speaker 0: You know they they like live

Speaker 1: in such low population Abundances they have such huge home ranges. I don't think it would ever be that there was like a jaguar problem

Speaker 0: There's no jaguar problem. Yeah, I don't think you're gonna have people,

Speaker 1: you know the Kate where where you know You might recover wolves in some area and lose two-thirds of the elk Like seemingly overnight. I just I can't picture that That's I think

Speaker 0: you'd lose a lot of lions. You'd lose a lot of mountain lions probably. But do you think they'd be

Speaker 2: forced out? I think due to predation.

Speaker 1: I think that probably a combination of both, like them killing them and then just range reduction because of this big cat. But dude, I'm conflict averse enough where I don't want it's like Trucking them in to me is way in the future And man, it would be a political battle and you'd make a spotted owl out of the Jaguar Mmm, You'd have some level of people that just came

Speaker 0: to hate them sons of bitches because they were

Speaker 1: a symbol of federal overreach But them just coming across the border. I think it's a great way.

Speaker 0: It's a great thing to root for

Speaker 3: Well, that's where they think el jefe is coming through. Yeah, that's 1 of the reasons why they call him El Jefe. He manages to make his way through the wall.

Speaker 0: Yeah, and there's but it's

Speaker 1: you know for a jaguar to come hanging out in the US. It's it's you know It's a dicey life.

Speaker 2: I don't think he knows.

Speaker 0: No, no, of course. No, of course he doesn't know but

Speaker 1: You wind up there's not like a great in recent decades. There's not a great likelihood of establishing a habitat and having a female to breed with.

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The Debate Over Reintroducing Jaguars to North America