Taken from JRE #1916 w/Jon Bernthal:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5PQuuviPU7xHqcqZOuCFxM?si=a7ee4e53b4a54218

The Joe Rogan Experience What kind of blowback?

You know, I think that, you know, look, I had Shia LaBeouf on, you know, after these allegations came out of him and being physically and emotionally abusive to his girlfriend at the time.

And what was crazy was I never wanted to have any actors on.

Just because, and not because, there's just so many podcasts where actors are talking to actors and they're talking about, and I'm actually interested in that shit, but like, you know, like, nobody needs to hear me talk about that.

But Shia, at the time, he was a guy that, when we did Fury together, that was such a wild experience.

And he was this guy who came in, he pulled his tooth out because he thought his character shouldn't have a tooth.

He cut his face, he didn't shower for 8 months.

And at first when I met him, I was like, this guy is just fucking, he's just loud.

He's wearing his process on his sleeve showing everybody how hard he's working But what I found, you know after the 8 months of working with him Was somebody who and I you know, and this isn't it's just my own and he is every bit this thing is every bit as vital to him as it was with me.

He was willing to risk it all for this, for the work.

And I walked away with like an enormous amount of respect for him and love for him.

I also saw a guy who grew up as a child star, a guy who felt like he needed to bleed out for his art, felt that he needed to live wildly out on the street and in real life in order to sort of maintain that danger in his work.

And I'm coming from a guy, you know, me at this point, where I did all that when I didn't have the umbrella of being a big movie star, and I didn't have that.

But now I'm a guy who's absolutely a committed husband and father.

My life is my family, and what I've found is the well, the things that I can tap into and my emotional sort of accessibility of being a dedicated father and husband is so much greater than when I was sort of this wild animal.

And I care about people way more than I care about myself.

And the first thing I remember seeing him and seeing this raw nerve and this unbelievable talent, I would say I think he's the best actor I've ever worked with.

And I think more than anything else, I really wanted to show him what a real friend was like.

I just remember, like, saying that to myself.

I want to show you what a real friend is like.

I feel like you've never really had a real friend.

And my friends, the guys that I grew up with, they've been my best friends my whole life.

I just like, I value that so much, right?

So we had him on the podcast real early on and before this stuff came out.

And it was right at a time when he had gotten in trouble down in Georgia and he went to rehab and he wrote this movie sort of about his own life called Honey Boy that got nominated for an Oscar and he wrote it and he starred in it, he played his dad.

And I kinda had him on sort of celebrating where he was at because for a long time he had taken a lot of shit from this industry And here he was sort of on top of the world.

And I remember at the time, my agents at the time were calling me being like, you think I could just get a phone call with Shia?

And then this woman said he did these things to him, and he was just done, canceled.

And I'll say, man, when I heard that he had done those things, You know, for me, there really is a red line with people that I need to look at with myself.

And through all the shit that I've seen, all the shit that I've done, man, I just...

I can't be down with you if you put your hands on a woman.

If you put your hands on a woman or a child, dude, I just like, you know, I can't man, I can't, I can't, I can't get over that.

And I heard this, you know, about my friend.

And, you know, I was really broken hearted about it.

And time went by, I mean, like 2 years, and you know, I know how much, you know, acting is not only important to him, but sort of necessary for his survival.

And I would reach out on text, you know, checking on him and that, but we hadn't made contact.

And then I heard that he was having a baby and he was married.

And I reached out to him and I said, hey, man, maybe it's time for you and me to have another talk.

And I made a decision with my team and with him, I needed, again, you go back to the intentionality, And I really looked at this role that you have of being a friend.

And being a friend is not about turning your back on somebody when they do something that you find fucking deplorable, or when you find disgusting.

Your job as a friend is to make sure they don't do it again.

And your job now, as this guy's being a father, is to step in there and say, hey man, where are you at?

And everybody in my life was like, worst idea in the world.

You cannot do that And then, you know, he came on man and and and we spoke and You know, I was weird because I found so many of the same themes and so many of the same...

The heart of what I found in that LWOP community, I found in Shia.

The level of disgust, the level of work, the level of commitment, the level of shame, the level of time spent, this fluency with his victim.

And I wasn't, I had no interest in exonerating him or saying or saving him in any way.

I wanted to check on him and I wanted to see how he was doing and I felt that that was an honest thing and you know just the fact that I had him on, I got, you know, an enormous amount of backlash, you know, an enormous amount of, for really the first time kind of as like a public person, just like kind of hatred.

And the fact that I had given somebody who could have, you know, who may have done these things that this woman says, you know, that really hurt people.

And I felt fucking terrible about that, man.

Because after talking to him, and then going around and...

Talking to women who had been victims themselves, talking to, you know, this 1 woman specifically who we were gonna have on, but...

She had health issues and couldn't, but...

You know, what I've found is so many people have reached out who said, like, I was in that place.

I was in that place where I was, whether I was abusive or not abusive, I was getting there.

And the drugs and the alcohol were getting the better of me.

And I mean, really, what, you know, he's, he was 2 years sober at the time that I had him on.

And I thought really what it was, was like a real meditation in shame.

And I thought that, what this woman said to me was, with all, there's so many places and platforms for women to go to.

There's shelters, there's places to go to talk about the abuse, to be there to help people after the fact.

But who is talking to these fucked up young men who are committing the abuse, who is talking to them and saying, dude, don't do that.

Like I've been there, there is another way.

Stop, go get help, change your behavior, work, put in the work.

I just, you know, I ultimately felt, you know, that what he said could have a real positive effect.

And I believe looking back on it now, again, man, it's like, you know, what are you gonna do?

You can weigh the comments of people who have told you, you know, you're the worst guy on earth for doing it, or you can weigh the comments of people who have told you you're the worst guy on earth for doing it or you can weigh the comments of the people who say, hey man, that thing saved my life.

I look at the intentionality behind what the show was and why I decided to have him on, and then why I decided to air it, and I stand by it.


Speaker 0: The Joe Rogan Experience What kind of blowback? Oh man, you know, like, so much. You know, I think that, you know, look, I had Shia LaBeouf on, you know, after these allegations came out of him and being physically and emotionally abusive to his girlfriend at the time. And what was crazy was I never wanted to have any actors on. That was kind of like my rule.

Just because, and not because, there's just so many podcasts where actors are talking to actors and they're talking about, and I'm actually interested in that shit, but like, you know, like, nobody needs to hear me talk about that. But Shia, at the time, he was a guy that, when we did Fury together, that was such a wild experience. And he was this guy who came in, he pulled his tooth out because he thought his character shouldn't have a tooth. He cut his face, he didn't shower for 8 months. And at first when I met him, I was like, this guy is just fucking, he's just loud.

He's wearing his process on his sleeve showing everybody how hard he's working But what I found, you know after the 8 months of working with him Was somebody who and I you know, and this isn't it's just my own and he is every bit this thing is every bit as vital to him as it was with me. I found a real partner. I found a real kindred spirit. I found that he was so fucking cute. He was willing to risk it all for this, for the work.

And I walked away with like an enormous amount of respect for him and love for him. I also saw a guy who grew up as a child star, a guy who felt like he needed to bleed out for his art, felt that he needed to live wildly out on the street and in real life in order to sort of maintain that danger in his work. And I'm coming from a guy, you know, me at this point, where I did all that when I didn't have the umbrella of being a big movie star, and I didn't have that. But now I'm a guy who's absolutely a committed husband and father. That is my life.

My life is my family, and what I've found is the well, the things that I can tap into and my emotional sort of accessibility of being a dedicated father and husband is so much greater than when I was sort of this wild animal. And I care about people way more than I care about myself. My ego is dead in that sense. So I really wanted to be there for him. And the first thing I remember seeing him and seeing this raw nerve and this unbelievable talent, I would say I think he's the best actor I've ever worked with.

And I really wanted to protect him. And I think more than anything else, I really wanted to show him what a real friend was like. I just remember, like, saying that to myself. I want to show you what a real friend is like. I feel like you've never really had a real friend.

And my friends, the guys that I grew up with, they've been my best friends my whole life. Couldn't do anything without them. I just like, I value that so much, right? So we had him on the podcast real early on and before this stuff came out. And it was right at a time when he had gotten in trouble down in Georgia and he went to rehab and he wrote this movie sort of about his own life called Honey Boy that got nominated for an Oscar and he wrote it and he starred in it, he played his dad.

It was a movie about his life. And I kinda had him on sort of celebrating where he was at because for a long time he had taken a lot of shit from this industry And here he was sort of on top of the world. And I remember at the time, my agents at the time were calling me being like, you think I could just get a phone call with Shia? Like maybe we could bring him? He was like, you know.

And then this woman said he did these things to him, and he was just done, canceled. And I'll say, man, when I heard that he had done those things, You know, for me, there really is a red line with people that I need to look at with myself. And through all the shit that I've seen, all the shit that I've done, man, I just... I can't be down with you if you put your hands on a woman. If you put your hands on a woman or a child, dude, I just like, you know, I can't man, I can't, I can't, I can't get over that.

I can't. And I heard this, you know, about my friend. And, you know, I was really broken hearted about it. And time went by, I mean, like 2 years, and you know, I know how much, you know, acting is not only important to him, but sort of necessary for his survival. And I would reach out on text, you know, checking on him and that, but we hadn't made contact.

And then I heard that he was having a baby and he was married. And I reached out to him and I said, hey, man, maybe it's time for you and me to have another talk. And I made a decision with my team and with him, I needed, again, you go back to the intentionality, And I really looked at this role that you have of being a friend. And being a friend is not about turning your back on somebody when they do something that you find fucking deplorable, or when you find disgusting. Your job as a friend is to make sure they don't do it again.

And your job now, as this guy's being a father, is to step in there and say, hey man, where are you at? Like, what are you doing? What kind of work are you doing? Where are you? Like, that's what being a friend is.

And everybody in my life was like, worst idea in the world. You cannot do that. You cannot do that And then, you know, he came on man and and and we spoke and You know, I was weird because I found so many of the same themes and so many of the same... The heart of what I found in that LWOP community, I found in Shia. The level of disgust, the level of work, the level of commitment, the level of shame, the level of time spent, this fluency with his victim.

And I wasn't, I had no interest in exonerating him or saying or saving him in any way. I wanted to check on him and I wanted to see how he was doing and I felt that that was an honest thing and you know just the fact that I had him on, I got, you know, an enormous amount of backlash, you know, an enormous amount of, for really the first time kind of as like a public person, just like kind of hatred. And the fact that I had given somebody who could have, you know, who may have done these things that this woman says, you know, that really hurt people. And I felt fucking terrible about that, man. Like I, like...

Did you wish you hadn't done it? No. No. Because after talking to him, and then going around and... Talking to women who had been victims themselves, talking to, you know, this 1 woman specifically who we were gonna have on, but...

Her... She had health issues and couldn't, but... You know, what I've found is so many people have reached out who said, like, I was in that place. Like, I was in that place where he was. I was in that place where I was, whether I was abusive or not abusive, I was getting there.

And the drugs and the alcohol were getting the better of me. And I mean, really, what, you know, he's, he was 2 years sober at the time that I had him on. And I thought really what it was, was like a real meditation in shame. And I thought that, what this woman said to me was, with all, there's so many places and platforms for women to go to. There's shelters, there's places to go to talk about the abuse, to be there to help people after the fact.

But who is talking to these fucked up young men who are committing the abuse, who is talking to them and saying, dude, don't do that. Like I've been there, there is another way. This is not the answer. Stop, go get help, change your behavior, work, put in the work. I just, you know, I ultimately felt, you know, that what he said could have a real positive effect.

And I believe looking back on it now, again, man, it's like, you know, what are you gonna do? You can weigh the comments of people who have told you, you know, you're the worst guy on earth for doing it, or you can weigh the comments of people who have told you you're the worst guy on earth for doing it or you can weigh the comments of the people who say, hey man, that thing saved my life. You know what I mean? I can't look at it that way. I look at the intentionality behind what the show was and why I decided to have him on, and then why I decided to air it, and I stand by it.

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Jon Bernthal Reflects on Interviewing Shia Labeouf