Taken from JRE #1988 w/James Reed:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/75anOBJoLTr5E3d0kZjbWS?si=861c2c166d1d4563

Now, when the chimps are on patrol, that's a uniquely intense and aggressive moment, and it's so wild to watch.

To see them, these hulking chimpanzees, move through the forest in coordination.

When you're there with that, and you're very close to these violent encounters with the other chimps, is there any concern there that you could get caught up in this sort of violent frenzy and maybe be in danger of being attacked?

And that, I mean, the what, Let me rephrase that.

I would say on a personal level, of course, right?

You know, you come, you hear about these things happening.

You know it's a possibility, we'll be there when it happens, when it's filmed.

So this is, you know, I've been through the exact same process as you are now and had this conversation with the scientists like, oh, are we going to be safe?

You know, is it safe for us to, where should we be or where should we not be if this happens when we're there?

So totally, We had exactly the same questions and we just didn't know.

And we were reassured by the scientists, you know, you'll be amazed.

Like, if you see those things, they will happen, but they will ignore you.

And their only warning was that definitely don't get too close.

You know, because the level of excitement around the chimps during these encounters, you know, if there's ever a time when they could accidentally come very close to you or suddenly see you and get a bit of a fright you know that they wouldn't want they wouldn't want to take that sort of a risk with us so they did they did we were warned you know keep a respectful distance from that but amazingly and there's a little them a little behind-the-scenes clip that we've sort of released on YouTube now, and you can see that during the biggest encounter that we filmed, the camera people were sort of like In it and I'm around it and sort of at 1 stage sort of like accidentally between the 2 groups standing off and you know that the certain way I mean the chimps move so fast and they organize reorganize separate or whatever so you can try and be in the perfect position but then that perfect position could quickly become where you don't want to be because of where the chimps have gone.

So through no fault of their own, you know, there's the times when they're sort of, they're in there sort of, it's a bit like being a war reporter or something.

But weirdly, you know, they're so focused on what it is they're doing and have no interest in sort of involving or redirecting their aggression to the humans at all.

I think, you know, because of, you know, there are some quite high profile and sort of like pretty tragic sort of human chimp interactions, aren't there?

at zoos or yes, or whatever and I think the it I think it does give us sort of an Unusual impression of what chimps are like in in the wild they have all that sort of capability.

And more so, you know, the Ngogo chimps, there's so many of them.

And they are engaged in these sort of violent competitions with other groups.

But their relationship with people is just completely different to a relationship chimps might have with people in captivity or if they've been kept as pets or something.

Yeah, it's just, it's not, I totally get it, and those are exactly the sort of things I wanted to know before I stepped in and go, go.

Well, I mean, you know, you need to know.

But amazingly, when you've been there, around it, and even once you've just been on a single patrol with the Nazi, and they are exhilarating.

When you go on patrol with the Nkoko chimps, it's amazing.

They are taking you on a journey to the edge of their border, and they're fully committed, and they're coordinated.

And they don't seem to care that you're following them.

Just watching them move in coordination and just wondering like, how do they know?

Almost seems like they're gesturing in some ways, like that chimp with the 1 hand.

Oh, so this is the behind the scenes bit.

You know, gestures quite often that in our form, oh, hands all over each other there.

They know, they're in this, like, tense situation.

I think that you can read into that, that they're sort of telling each other that, like, I'm with you.

You know, it's just reassuring each other that we're in this together and it's you and me

Mean when you're seeing chimp on chimp violence from several feet away, that has to be wild.

I don't, like I said, we, I mean, I don't really wanna give away any spoilers for the series because some of these things are sort of like major plot points in the series.

I know what you're saying, and I appreciate your

But it's so good, it's so good, that even if you say what happens, and people get to see it, it's so good.

I mean, and I would say that like like I said, I often personally what I wasn't there for many of the things that happened But I was some and I and I have been there previously and go go where certain things were having It's hard I think that is Chimp on chimp violence is is a lot harder to watch than the chimp on monkey violence for me personally.

And whether I'm there myself or whether I'm seeing it recorded later on, I think there's a, there's kind of a sadness to that, personally.

Quite Often it's because in truth, it gets more serious if the chimps outnumber them significantly.

So when chimps are kind of equal sized groups, when they come into contact, they're usually less violent situations.

There's too much danger, too much at stake.

But if there's enough chimps on either side, you can pretty much know that in this immediate situation no one's gonna get badly hurt.

They get badly hurt when they're outnumbered and obviously that on a human level just no 1 likes seeing that sort of thing.

You know there's there's just a yeah that that it's just horrible and then it you know unfortunately we've all sort of seen that personally or clips of that in humans, and it's the most uncomfortable, horrible stuff.

So yeah, all of that stuff is very hard to watch.

Well, now I'll say even, you know, interestingly, like I say, we, the scientists at Ngogo, we know them really well now and we've worked with them for a long time.

So you know, we share things and they share stories that are on a more personal level with us.

But they are obviously better than we or a viewer would be at detaching themselves.

They're there to observe and try and understand.

But even they who have been there for many years and I think particularly because they've been there for many years sometimes you see an act of violence on it on a chimp that you've known and been following around for ages they may not care about you but you really care about them and and it's sad yeah it's very sad.

During the filming or at least on the show there's 1 instance of the chimpanzees killing another chimp Was there more of that?

No, no, I was thinking, does it really matter?

Well, there's another thing in the series we're not going to talk about because that really is a spoiler, but yes, a couple of occasions whilst we were there.

And that is how, I mean, does it, is it, is it conflicted?

Do you almost have this like feeling that you want to intervene and protect the chimp or?

I think, yeah, everybody who's been around, those feelings, you wish it wouldn't happen.

You don't want this to conclude in the way that you think it might.

But again, I think I totally understand why you're asking, but I think once you've been around them enough and you have to have this commitment to, and it's part of the same point that you were asking earlier about that impact on their lives.

You want 0 impact on their lives or minimal, right?

You actually can't make too much of a positive impact either.

You know, also, it just wouldn't be practical.

Shout and make a noise and try and disturb them just enough for a moment that the chimp could get away and, you know, possibly, but I think that it wouldn't be, you know, it wouldn't be ethical to do it.

I mean that's my take on it from what I've seen at Ngogo.

They are competitive and they're territorial And those behaviors have served them well in the past.

So you can't, as much as it's not from a human observer point of view, that same thing, taking that same situation out as something you observed in the street, all those natural sort of tendencies, desires to intervene and stop something, you know, they're there for good reason.

But, you know, this is the entire, sort of the entire scientific project, our commitment as filmmakers to observe but not interfere.

I mean, that's all part of the same thing.

You couldn't be stepped out of that role in any circumstance.

You've crossed a line in a really odd way.

And in a way, that sort of helps with what you're feeling when you see or observe those things, because we know there's absolutely nothing you can do about this.

Right, I mean of course ethically, you really can't intervene.

I mean, what an amazing experience for you as a human being to have gone through this.

It's just such a rare, rare insight into these animals and these incredibly unique creatures and their behavior.

It's just, you must feel so fortunate just to have experienced, just as a human being, just as a life experience, to take that in.

I mean, this, you know, I've been very lucky in lots of bits of my job that I've done over the years.

I think that, you know, it's a great job.

It's very hard work, a lot harder than probably what people appreciate, and, but extremely lucky on loads of things.

I do feel with the N'Gogo chimps in particular, like you say, as a human being, from an existential sort of point of view, there's like, I'm so fortunate.

And not really, not many people get to see that.

And they are fascinating because of the connections we have with them.

They're also fascinating because they're different and they're all individuals.

And it's a chance to just, you kind of feel a part of something that has brought that important knowledge and information to people.

Yeah, so I feel personally very fortunate, yeah.


Speaker 0: The Jorogun Experience.

Speaker 1: Now, when the chimps are on patrol, that's a uniquely intense and aggressive moment, and it's so wild to watch. To see them, these hulking chimpanzees, move through the forest in coordination. When you're there with that, and you're very close to these violent encounters with the other chimps, is there any concern there that you could get caught up in this sort of violent frenzy and maybe be in danger of being attacked? Or? You know,

Speaker 0: there isn't actually. And that, I mean, the what, Let me rephrase that. I would say on a personal level, of course, right? You know, you come, you hear about these things happening. You know it's a possibility, we'll be there when it happens, when it's filmed.

So we ask exactly the same questions. So this is, you know, I've been through the exact same process as you are now and had this conversation with the scientists like, oh, are we going to be safe? Right. You know, is it safe for us to, where should we be or where should we not be if this happens when we're there? So totally, We had exactly the same questions and we just didn't know.

And we were reassured by the scientists, you know, you'll be amazed. Like, if you see those things, they will happen, but they will ignore you. And their only warning was that definitely don't get too close. You know, because the level of excitement around the chimps during these encounters, you know, if there's ever a time when they could accidentally come very close to you or suddenly see you and get a bit of a fright you know that they wouldn't want they wouldn't want to take that sort of a risk with us so they did they did we were warned you know keep a respectful distance from that but amazingly and there's a little them a little behind-the-scenes clip that we've sort of released on YouTube now, and you can see that during the biggest encounter that we filmed, the camera people were sort of like In it and I'm around it and sort of at 1 stage sort of like accidentally between the 2 groups standing off and you know that the certain way I mean the chimps move so fast and they organize reorganize separate or whatever so you can try and be in the perfect position but then that perfect position could quickly become where you don't want to be because of where the chimps have gone.

So through no fault of their own, you know, there's the times when they're sort of, they're in there sort of, it's a bit like being a war reporter or something. But weirdly, you know, they're so focused on what it is they're doing and have no interest in sort of involving or redirecting their aggression to the humans at all. I think, you know, because of, you know, there are some quite high profile and sort of like pretty tragic sort of human chimp interactions, aren't there? In Ngogo? No, No, I mean sort of like things

Speaker 1: that have happened

Speaker 0: at zoos or yes, or whatever and I think the it I think it does give us sort of an Unusual impression of what chimps are like in in the wild they have all that sort of capability. And more so, you know, the Ngogo chimps, there's so many of them. And they are engaged in these sort of violent competitions with other groups. That's a very real thing. And, you know, and it can get serious.

But their relationship with people is just completely different to a relationship chimps might have with people in captivity or if they've been kept as pets or something. Yeah, it's just, it's not, I totally get it, and those are exactly the sort of things I wanted to know before I stepped in and go, go. Well, I mean, you know, you need to know. But amazingly, when you've been there, around it, and even once you've just been on a single patrol with the Nazi, and they are exhilarating. When you go on patrol with the Nkoko chimps, it's amazing.

They are taking you on a journey to the edge of their border, and they're fully committed, and they're coordinated.

Speaker 1: And they don't seem to care that you're following them.

Speaker 0: And they're allowing you to be there.

Speaker 1: That's amazing.

Speaker 0: Yeah. It's an incredible experience, actually. It's real adrenaline.

Speaker 1: Yeah, there they are. Look at that. This was my favorite part. Just watching them move in coordination and just wondering like, how do they know? Like, what are they doing?

Almost seems like they're gesturing in some ways, like that chimp with the 1 hand.

Speaker 0: Oh, so this is the behind the scenes bit. Yeah, exactly. You know, gestures quite often that in our form, oh, hands all over each other there. That's undeniable. These sort of reassuring gestures.

They know, they're in this, like, tense situation. They're nervous. I think that you can read into that, that they're sort of telling each other that, like, I'm with you. I'm with you. I'm here.

That physical contact is just... You know, it's just reassuring each other that we're in this together and it's you and me

Speaker 1: and When violence does break out. What is that experience like I? Mean when you're seeing chimp on chimp violence from several feet away, that has to be wild.

Speaker 0: I don't, like I said, we, I mean, I don't really wanna give away any spoilers for the series because some of these things are sort of like major plot points in the series.

Speaker 1: I don't think it matters. I know what you're saying, and I appreciate your

Speaker 0: artistic sentiment.

Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. But it's so good, it's so good, that even if you say what happens, and people get to see it, it's so good.

Speaker 0: I mean, and I would say that like like I said, I often personally what I wasn't there for many of the things that happened But I was some and I and I have been there previously and go go where certain things were having It's hard I think that is Chimp on chimp violence is is a lot harder to watch than the chimp on monkey violence for me personally. And whether I'm there myself or whether I'm seeing it recorded later on, I think there's a, there's kind of a sadness to that, personally. Quite Often it's because in truth, it gets more serious if the chimps outnumber them significantly. So when chimps are kind of equal sized groups, when they come into contact, they're usually less violent situations.

Speaker 1: Because there's too much danger.

Speaker 0: There's too much danger, too much at stake. It's kind of a bit bravado. So they run at each other a few times. But if there's enough chimps on either side, you can pretty much know that in this immediate situation no one's gonna get badly hurt. They get badly hurt when they're outnumbered and obviously that on a human level just no 1 likes seeing that sort of thing.

Yeah. You know there's there's just a yeah that that it's just horrible and then it you know unfortunately we've all sort of seen that personally or clips of that in humans, and it's the most uncomfortable, horrible stuff. It really makes you horrible. So yeah, all of that stuff is very hard to watch.

Speaker 1: Sorry.

Speaker 0: Well, now I'll say even, you know, interestingly, like I say, we, the scientists at Ngogo, we know them really well now and we've worked with them for a long time. So you know, we share things and they share stories that are on a more personal level with us. But they are obviously better than we or a viewer would be at detaching themselves. You know, this is just what happens. They're there to observe and try and understand.

It's not an emotional thing. But even they who have been there for many years and I think particularly because they've been there for many years sometimes you see an act of violence on it on a chimp that you've known and been following around for ages they may not care about you but you really care about them and and it's sad yeah it's very sad.

Speaker 1: During the filming or at least on the show there's 1 instance of the chimpanzees killing another chimp Was there more of that?

Speaker 0: You're blowing all this with your...

Speaker 1: I'm not!

Speaker 0: I'm not! Okay.

Speaker 1: You think it's a spoiler alert, but

Speaker 0: I'm telling you...

Speaker 1: No, no, no,

Speaker 0: that's fine. It's so complex and

Speaker 1: so fascinating and so good...

Speaker 0: Yeah. I don't... Okay, good. No, no, no, it's fine.

Speaker 1: I don't know how to... I know it's you for

Speaker 0: me, so... No, no, I was thinking, does it really matter? It doesn't matter. I don't know.

Speaker 1: It's so good it doesn't matter.

Speaker 0: Okay. Yes. Okay, so that happens.

Speaker 1: Was it only 1 time while you were there?

Speaker 0: Well, yes. No. Well, there's another thing in the series we're not going to talk about because that really is a spoiler, but yes, a couple of occasions whilst we were there.

Speaker 1: And that is how, I mean, does it, is it, is it conflicted? Do you almost have this like feeling that you want to intervene and protect the chimp or?

Speaker 0: I think, yeah, everybody who's been around, those feelings, you wish it wouldn't happen. You don't want this to conclude in the way that you think it might. But again, I think I totally understand why you're asking, but I think once you've been around them enough and you have to have this commitment to, and it's part of the same point that you were asking earlier about that impact on their lives. You want 0 impact on their lives or minimal, right? You don't want any negative impact.

You actually can't make too much of a positive impact either. You know, also, it just wouldn't be practical. It's not safe, you know? You know, what could you do? Shout and make a noise and try and disturb them just enough for a moment that the chimp could get away and, you know, possibly, but I think that it wouldn't be, you know, it wouldn't be ethical to do it.

These are, It is natural behavior. I mean that's my take on it from what I've seen at Ngogo. This is part of their natural behavior. They are competitive and they're territorial And those behaviors have served them well in the past. So you can't, as much as it's not from a human observer point of view, that same thing, taking that same situation out as something you observed in the street, all those natural sort of tendencies, desires to intervene and stop something, you know, they're there for good reason.

But, you know, this is the entire, sort of the entire scientific project, our commitment as filmmakers to observe but not interfere. I mean, that's all part of the same thing. You couldn't be stepped out of that role in any circumstance. You've crossed a line in a really odd way. And in a way, that sort of helps with what you're feeling when you see or observe those things, because we know there's absolutely nothing you can do about this.

Speaker 1: Right, I mean of course ethically, you really can't intervene. But it's still, it's sort of, phew. I mean, what an amazing experience for you as a human being to have gone through this. It's just such a rare, rare insight into these animals and these incredibly unique creatures and their behavior. It's just, you must feel so fortunate just to have experienced, just as a human being, just as a life experience, to take that in.

Speaker 0: I really do. Yeah, I really do. I mean, this, you know, I've been very lucky in lots of bits of my job that I've done over the years. I think that, you know, it's a great job. It's very hard work, a lot harder than probably what people appreciate, and, but extremely lucky on loads of things.

I do feel with the N'Gogo chimps in particular, like you say, as a human being, from an existential sort of point of view, there's like, I'm so fortunate. And not really, not many people get to see that. And they are our closest relatives. And they are fascinating because of the connections we have with them. They're also fascinating because they're different and they're all individuals.

And it's a chance to just, you kind of feel a part of something that has brought that important knowledge and information to people. Yeah, so I feel personally very fortunate, yeah.

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Documentarian James Reed on Witnessing Chimpanzee Patrols and Attacks