Taken from JRE #2021 w/Mike Baker:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1ZxkBvzLUjDy0U56cXQgw9?si=73ef277129004502

The Jerogen Experience With Grush, I think, here's my take on it.

I think he believes what he's saying, right?

I think he has gone out there, I think, I'm legit, like he was a, whatever, 14 year veteran of military and National Reconnaissance Office.

And I think he went out and he talked to enough people and He believes it.

I don't think he's out there spinning a yarn and is worried that now he's gotten over his skis and he's said too many things.

And maybe the difference between us is I spent a lot of time with the government.

And the government is, sometimes, can be really, really dysfunctional.

And I just, it goes back to keeping a secret.

The idea that they could have this, what essentially is a covert action campaign, you know, to spread this information about what they actually know, right?

When the easier thing to do is just to have the program, you know, if again, if it's the U.S.

Government's, you know, development of technology, right, and we're doing this, to have the program and just keep your mouth shut about it, not go for a disinformation campaign, not try to muddy the waters by doing this, because in a sense, you're just creating more conversation around it.

You're creating, you know, now there's a little bit of a, you know, movement within Congress to say, we have to do this, now we have to...

So they're going to look perhaps for a misappropriation of funds, right?

Because they're not going to pursue like the UAP issue necessarily, right?

But they might be interested in pursuing misappropriation of funds.

So if you're running a program, if it didn't...

Again, going back to the idea that it's a US government thing.

If you're running a program, that's the last thing you want to do is because you're doing this program to avoid government oversight, you're not going to create this alternative narrative that could generate the sort of publicity or the conversation, particularly up on Capitol Hill, that causes them to then start looking and saying, well, where is money being spent?

Right, because there is a trail there, and that could cause a problem.

So what are your instincts when you look at it?

If I'm looking at it, I'm saying something's wrong, or it seems like bullshit, What are your instincts?

Yeah, I think I Would like to say, you know, I don't think we're gonna get there but my instinct is to say how do we solve the how do we solve this or how do we come to some sort of logical resolution as opposed to saying what is it right off the bat?

My instinct is to say, all right, if the all domain anomalous or anomaly resolution office has 800 cases, then tell us where those 800 cases are.

Let's work our way through them, or have a little bit more transparency about working through those cases.

Again, you'll probably whittle them down, right, to, I mean, when we were doing black files, and we were going around talking to people about various sightings and things, You're basically just crossing things off, going, okay, that was this, that was this, that was this.

You know, you find some pretty mundane answers, you know, but you whittle it down to maybe 1 or 2 things that you can't explain.

And then you can investigate those and say, okay, all right, let's, let's dig further on these.

But right now it's just like all over the map and they've got so many cases and they just kind of lump it all together Are they doing that to obfuscate and create, you know, this this this this situation where it does seem like bullshit and and I again, I don't know but I think I'm not willing to shut the door on saying that those handful of those few sightings where we do have technical data, we got video, we got radar lock, We got gun camera footage, whatever it may be, that can't be explained.

I'm not willing to close the door and saying, well, it's, you know, is it...because who knows, maybe China's doing the same thing, you know.

Oh, we're leading the hypersonic race right now, great, but they've got another program, you know, and they were responsible for the TICTAC, right?

And if that leads us to the doorstep that says, oh, that's a U.S.

Government program and they've developed the technology, okay, you know, fine.

But you know, I realize that, you know, I just, I'm not willing to close the door and saying it could be something else could be otherworldly All right, because I just yeah, I could be I just there's no

that problem Yeah, the infinite nature of space which seems to actually be getting bigger.

Yeah, there was a good way of putting it that My wife who's a hell of a lot smarter than I am, tried to explain it to me, and I kept looking at her like this.

But she had heard a program at 1 point where the person explained it like, okay, imagine how vast the ocean is, right?

And, you know, how you, we've explored the ocean.

But then you look at space and how immense it is, right?

The amount that we've explored in space, right, is equivalent to like a wine glass full of ocean water.

Right, so you take a wine glass full of ocean water, you look at it and you go, there's nothing there.

know, there's all those life forms, there's all those fish in the sea.

It's kind of like that, and then, you know, you think about space and you think about what we know and what we don't know and How we imagine like our limited capacity to imagine what life outside of Earth could look like right so it yeah

But when you hear talk of like crashed retrieval programs

Yeah that that keeps taking me back and is you know to this this whole idea of if there was a crash retrieval and reverse engineering program like David Gresh talked about and had been in existence for decades, somebody would have fucking opened their yap and talked about it.

And they would have had some better specifics, right?

Well, I haven't seen it, but I talked to somebody who knows that it exists.

And I think maybe it's because we're human, we're programmed to actually want physical evidence.

We want to actually see it before we believe it.

1 of the things that's fascinating is the narrative has shifted so wildly from it's completely preposterous to credible people like David Fravor and Ryan Graves and all these different people that are talking about multiple sightings, things that completely defy our understanding of what a vehicle is capable of doing.

Hovering completely motionless in 120 knot winds, all the whole, you know, whatever that thing is, the cube inside a sphere that they keep seeing over and over again.

So I think 1 of the good developments out of all of this, and 1 of the things that may eventually lead to transparency, right?

Because it will provide an avenue for these sightings, whether it's commercial or military pilots, as an example, to report it, right?

And for the government to take it, perhaps, you know, again, it depends on whether it's a big conspiracy or not, to investigate in a more logical manner and in a more detailed manner.

So I think just, again, the sheer act that we're talking about it, which then takes me back to the idea that, you know, if you're running a secret program, you don't want people talking about it, so you're not gonna muddy the waters with a false narrative if you don't have to.

You know, if your concern is that someone's getting close to the truth and you got to do okay, then maybe so but You know

Do you think it's also possible that there are?

Patriots that do think that the American public deserves to know about this information and they have been sitting on it for a long time The people are David Grush and all these various people that are coming out and more apparently are wanting to come out?

Well, interesting thing with Grush is, Look, he said so during the hearing, right?

Well, if I'm, you know, 1 of the people on that subcommittee, I'm going to say, you know what, to my staff, schedule a SCIF meeting with Grush.

Get him in here and let's you know, have him talk in a classified shit, right?

So that would be the next logical step in all of this.

when he said I could talk to you about it in a skiff as have people taken him up on that?

Because if he sits there and, but if he sits in the skiff and continues to kind of say, well, OK, you guys aren't clear to hear this and I can't.

then you gotta start questioning what he's actually got or what he knows for sure rather than just having this witness interviews and sort of secondhand information.

But I'm much more, I guess the point is, I'm much more interested in the direct sightings than Witness interviews, right?

Right and the thing about him is he's not really a witness Where he hasn't had any personal encounters with anything.

It's not personal encounter with a craft He hasn't seen a retrieved craft.

He hasn't seen the biological entities These are all just programs that he's been made aware of that he felt like people needed to know about.

And again, not to disparage anybody, right?

I mean, look, if in fact Somebody leaked his medical records, which it looks like you know did happen right then that's that you know That's that's pretty bullshit right mm-hmm somebody needs to invent and figure out what the hell is

The information from Grush who said he was unable to discuss specifics on what he told the Pentagon's watchdog arm, lawmakers want to sit down with a former official in a sensitive compartmented information facility, a SCIF, to get additional information from him.

The group has been blocked, however, by officials that have informed them that Grush doesn't currently have security clearance to discuss the issues in a SCIF according to Berchette.

We think that we'll get there eventually.

I'm ready to go and the American public are ready to go," he said.

Luna argued that the skiff with Grush could help lawmakers better understand the type of legislation they need to write regarding UAPs.

She said she supports legislation that would declassify information on the phenomenon.

So there seems to be some issue of secrecy and what's possible to discuss or what's legal to discuss.

Well, but yeah, look, the government casts a very wide net when you're talking about classified information, right?

The government has over classified information for decades and decades, right?

And you've got secret, top secret, code word, you know?

And they tend to just hoover everything up and classify it, right?

And then it takes fucking forever, right, to go through that process of declassification.

And because nobody wants to put their neck out at that point and say, yeah, let's declassify this, right, once it's in that pot.

So, but the question is, great, you know, you're saying, you know, you can talk about it in the SCIF.

Well, damn it, then that's the next that that's what the subcommittee should be doing that that's their job Right if they're curious, right and if they're sincere about trying to get to the bottom of this and that's theoretically their job Then they should because again going back to the main thing and people can say well Why are you wasting your time on this?

But you can always circle back to the top line, which is it's for national security purposes.

We want to know what the hell's going on.

I guess that's the question that should be thrown at Grush or should be thrown at the subcommittee members.

I feel like people are so overloaded with information today Because of social media and because of the news cycle you're just people are so overloaded with information that this Barely registered on people other than UFO nuts.

I mean there was a there was a Surprising amount I thought anyway of sort of mainstream media coverage.

It was a hearing and I think they did it because it's like it's UFOs or UAPs Right.

And so, you know, they knew they'd get some clicks on it if they were putting it online or whatever.

Like, I haven't seen any stories that talked about the follow-up with Grush.

There were a couple of stories talking about the fact that perhaps his medical records were leaked.

That he had some sort of a psychiatric condition?

That he had an event or something like that?

PTSD, I think some suicidal depression issues.

He had done his time in Afghanistan, right?

And so that doesn't, yeah, it means nothing, except for the fact that it shouldn't be out there.

Those records should be damn well private.

Well, Not only that, isn't that what we want?

Why don't you shut your little dinger up there, fella?

Gotta learn how to use that little switch on the side.

Isn't that what you want from, I mean, that's the whole purpose of providing these services for veterans.

That when they do have suicidal thoughts and they are struggling with PTSD, that they get help.

I mean, the idea that they're shaming him and saying that his report is not credible because of this seems ridiculous.

And he said, he's come out since and said, look, I did seek help.

And he was happy that people were talking about it.

Look, we lose a shocking number of veterans to suicide, right?

And it's disgusting that we don't, you know, that the government doesn't work harder at this, right, and spend more effort.

I know a couple of people who do amazingly good work at the VA in terms of counselors, right?

They're not managers, they're not executives.

They work with the veterans every day, right?

But overall, as a government, our assistance, right, to veterans, I mean, look at the number of homeless situation, it's pathetic.

And so, when he talks about it, it's good that he's talking about it, right?

I think that transparency helps and he clearly views it that way too.

And He said, look, I don't have any problem with discussing it, but we should be concerned by the fact that somehow his medical records were put out there.

And then some people will look at that and go, well, is that the government's effort to discredit him?

Or is that somebody's effort to discredit him?

I don't know why anybody else would, why would you do that?


Speaker 0: The Jerogen Experience With Grush, I think, here's my take on it. I think he believes what he's saying, right? I think he has gone out there, I think, I'm legit, like he was a, whatever, 14 year veteran of military and National Reconnaissance Office. And I think he went out and he talked to enough people and He believes it. I don't think he's out there spinning a yarn and is worried that now he's gotten over his skis and he's said too many things.

But I don't know. I don't feel like it's tidy. And maybe the difference between us is I spent a lot of time with the government. And the government is, sometimes, can be really, really dysfunctional. And I just, it goes back to keeping a secret.

The idea that they could have this, what essentially is a covert action campaign, you know, to spread this information about what they actually know, right? When the easier thing to do is just to have the program, you know, if again, if it's the U.S. Government's, you know, development of technology, right, and we're doing this, to have the program and just keep your mouth shut about it, not go for a disinformation campaign, not try to muddy the waters by doing this, because in a sense, you're just creating more conversation around it. You're creating, you know, now there's a little bit of a, you know, movement within Congress to say, we have to do this, now we have to... So they're going to look perhaps for a misappropriation of funds, right?

Because they're not going to pursue like the UAP issue necessarily, right? But they might be interested in pursuing misappropriation of funds. So if you're running a program, if it didn't... Again, going back to the idea that it's a US government thing. If you're running a program, that's the last thing you want to do is because you're doing this program to avoid government oversight, you're not going to create this alternative narrative that could generate the sort of publicity or the conversation, particularly up on Capitol Hill, that causes them to then start looking and saying, well, where is money being spent?

Right. Right, because there is a trail there, and that could cause a problem. So yeah.

Speaker 1: So what are your instincts when you look at it? If I'm looking at it, I'm saying something's wrong, or it seems like bullshit, What are your instincts?

Speaker 0: Yeah, I think I Would like to say, you know, I don't think we're gonna get there but my instinct is to say how do we solve the how do we solve this or how do we come to some sort of logical resolution as opposed to saying what is it right off the bat? My instinct is to say, all right, if the all domain anomalous or anomaly resolution office has 800 cases, then tell us where those 800 cases are. Let's work our way through them, or have a little bit more transparency about working through those cases. Again, you'll probably whittle them down, right, to, I mean, when we were doing black files, and we were going around talking to people about various sightings and things, You're basically just crossing things off, going, okay, that was this, that was this, that was this. You know, you find some pretty mundane answers, you know, but you whittle it down to maybe 1 or 2 things that you can't explain.

And then you can investigate those and say, okay, all right, let's, let's dig further on these. But right now it's just like all over the map and they've got so many cases and they just kind of lump it all together Are they doing that to obfuscate and create, you know, this this this this situation where it does seem like bullshit and and I again, I don't know but I think I'm not willing to shut the door on saying that those handful of those few sightings where we do have technical data, we got video, we got radar lock, We got gun camera footage, whatever it may be, that can't be explained. I'm not willing to close the door and saying, well, it's, you know, is it...because who knows, maybe China's doing the same thing, you know. Oh, we're leading the hypersonic race right now, great, but they've got another program, you know, and they were responsible for the TICTAC, right? So we have to pursue it.

And if that leads us to the doorstep that says, oh, that's a U.S. Government program and they've developed the technology, okay, you know, fine. But you know, I realize that, you know, I just, I'm not willing to close the door and saying it could be something else could be otherworldly All right, because I just yeah, I could be I just there's no

Speaker 1: that problem Yeah, the infinite nature of space which seems to actually be getting bigger.

Speaker 0: Yeah, there was a good way of putting it that My wife who's a hell of a lot smarter than I am, tried to explain it to me, and I kept looking at her like this. But she had heard a program at 1 point where the person explained it like, okay, imagine how vast the ocean is, right? And, you know, how you, we've explored the ocean. But then you look at space and how immense it is, right? Compared to the ocean,

Speaker 1: right? Right.

Speaker 0: The amount that we've explored in space, right, is equivalent to like a wine glass full of ocean water. Right, so you take a wine glass full of ocean water, you look at it and you go, there's nothing there.

Speaker 1: Right, you

Speaker 0: know, there's all those life forms, there's all those fish in the sea. It's kind of like that, and then, you know, you think about space and you think about what we know and what we don't know and How we imagine like our limited capacity to imagine what life outside of Earth could look like right so it yeah

Speaker 1: But when you hear talk of like crashed retrieval programs

Speaker 0: Yeah that that keeps taking me back and is you know to this this whole idea of if there was a crash retrieval and reverse engineering program like David Gresh talked about and had been in existence for decades, somebody would have fucking opened their yap and talked about it.

Speaker 1: I think I'd... Other than Bob Lazar.

Speaker 0: Other than Bob Lazar. And they would have had some better specifics, right? I mean, that's always the thing. It's where it falls down. Well, I haven't seen it, but I talked to somebody who knows that it exists.

And I think maybe it's because we're human, we're programmed to actually want physical evidence. We want to actually see it before we believe it. But that really hasn't happened yet.

Speaker 1: 1 of the things that's fascinating is the narrative has shifted so wildly from it's completely preposterous to credible people like David Fravor and Ryan Graves and all these different people that are talking about multiple sightings, things that completely defy our understanding of what a vehicle is capable of doing. Hovering completely motionless in 120 knot winds, all the whole, you know, whatever that thing is, the cube inside a sphere that they keep seeing over and over again.

Speaker 0: Right. Almost hit 1 of the aircraft.

Speaker 1: Yeah, what the fuck is that?

Speaker 0: Yeah, and then they land. So I think 1 of the good developments out of all of this, and 1 of the things that may eventually lead to transparency, right? Because it will provide an avenue for these sightings, whether it's commercial or military pilots, as an example, to report it, right? And for the government to take it, perhaps, you know, again, it depends on whether it's a big conspiracy or not, to investigate in a more logical manner and in a more detailed manner. So I think just, again, the sheer act that we're talking about it, which then takes me back to the idea that, you know, if you're running a secret program, you don't want people talking about it, so you're not gonna muddy the waters with a false narrative if you don't have to.

You know, if your concern is that someone's getting close to the truth and you got to do okay, then maybe so but You know

Speaker 1: Do you think it's also possible that there are? Patriots that do think that the American public deserves to know about this information and they have been sitting on it for a long time The people are David Grush and all these various people that are coming out and more apparently are wanting to come out?

Speaker 0: Yeah. Well, interesting thing with Grush is, Look, he said so during the hearing, right? He said, I can't talk about that. I could talk about it in a SCIF, right? In a sensitive and secure environment.

All right. Well, if I'm, you know, 1 of the people on that subcommittee, I'm going to say, you know what, to my staff, schedule a SCIF meeting with Grush. Get him in here and let's you know, have him talk in a classified shit, right? So that would be the next logical step in all of this. I don't know.

I mean, it's You know

Speaker 1: when he said I could talk to you about it in a skiff as have people taken him up on that?

Speaker 0: Well, you'd have to ask him. No, I wouldn't. And they wouldn't tell anybody. And they wouldn't tell anybody. Their in-lies part of the problem.

Because if he sits there and, but if he sits in the skiff and continues to kind of say, well, OK, you guys aren't clear to hear this and I can't.

Speaker 1: All right,

Speaker 0: then you gotta start questioning what he's actually got or what he knows for sure rather than just having this witness interviews and sort of secondhand information. But I'm much more, I guess the point is, I'm much more interested in the direct sightings than Witness interviews, right?

Speaker 1: Right and the thing about him is he's not really a witness Where he hasn't had any personal encounters with anything.

Speaker 0: Right?

Speaker 1: It's not personal encounter with a craft He hasn't seen a retrieved craft. He hasn't seen the biological entities These are all just programs that he's been made aware of that he felt like people needed to know about. That's the narrative.

Speaker 0: And again, not to disparage anybody, right? I mean, look, if in fact Somebody leaked his medical records, which it looks like you know did happen right then that's that you know That's that's pretty bullshit right mm-hmm somebody needs to invent and figure out what the hell is

Speaker 1: The information from Grush who said he was unable to discuss specifics on what he told the Pentagon's watchdog arm, lawmakers want to sit down with a former official in a sensitive compartmented information facility, a SCIF, to get additional information from him. The group has been blocked, however, by officials that have informed them that Grush doesn't currently have security clearance to discuss the issues in a SCIF according to Berchette. We think that we'll get there eventually. It's just frustrating. I'm ready to go and the American public are ready to go," he said.

Luna argued that the skiff with Grush could help lawmakers better understand the type of legislation they need to write regarding UAPs. She said she supports legislation that would declassify information on the phenomenon. So there seems to be some issue of secrecy and what's possible to discuss or what's legal to discuss.

Speaker 0: Well, but yeah, look, the government casts a very wide net when you're talking about classified information, right? The government has over classified information for decades and decades, right? And you've got secret, top secret, code word, you know? And they tend to just hoover everything up and classify it, right? And then it takes fucking forever, right, to go through that process of declassification.

And because nobody wants to put their neck out at that point and say, yeah, let's declassify this, right, once it's in that pot. So, but the question is, great, you know, you're saying, you know, you can talk about it in the SCIF. Well, damn it, then that's the next that that's what the subcommittee should be doing that that's their job Right if they're curious, right and if they're sincere about trying to get to the bottom of this and that's theoretically their job Then they should because again going back to the main thing and people can say well Why are you wasting your time on this? But you can always circle back to the top line, which is it's for national security purposes. We want to know what the hell's going on.

Right. And, you know, so, yeah, we'll see. I guess that's the question that should be thrown at Grush or should be thrown at the subcommittee members.

Speaker 1: I'm also shocked at how few people care. I feel like people are so overloaded with information today Because of social media and because of the news cycle you're just people are so overloaded with information that this Barely registered on people other than UFO nuts.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. I mean there was a there was a Surprising amount I thought anyway of sort of mainstream media coverage. It wasn't particularly Deep right. It just kind of covered.

Okay. It was a hearing and I think they did it because it's like it's UFOs or UAPs Right. And so, you know, they knew they'd get some clicks on it if they were putting it online or whatever. And they didn't pursue it. Like, I haven't seen any stories that talked about the follow-up with Grush.

There were a couple of stories talking about the fact that perhaps his medical records were leaked.

Speaker 1: And the medical records showed what? That he had some sort of a psychiatric condition? That he had an event or something like that?

Speaker 0: PTSD, I think some suicidal depression issues.

Speaker 1: Standard stuff with military veterans.

Speaker 0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had done his time in Afghanistan, right? And so that doesn't, yeah, it means nothing, except for the fact that it shouldn't be out there. Right. Those records should be damn well private.

Speaker 1: Well, Not only that, isn't that what we want? Why don't you shut your little dinger up there, fella?

Speaker 0: Is that me going off?

Speaker 1: It's you. Yeah, that's why your phone rang, too.

Speaker 0: What the hell?

Speaker 1: Gotta learn how to use that little switch on the side.

Speaker 0: Thank you for my IT lesson.

Speaker 1: Isn't that what you want from, I mean, that's the whole purpose of providing these services for veterans. That when they do have suicidal thoughts and they are struggling with PTSD, that they get help. I mean, the idea that they're shaming him and saying that his report is not credible because of this seems ridiculous. It's bullshit. It's totally bullshit.

Speaker 0: Yeah. And he said, he's come out since and said, look, I did seek help. I'm in a better place. And he was happy that people were talking about it. They should be talking

Speaker 1: about it.

Speaker 0: Look, we lose a shocking number of veterans to suicide, right? And it's disgusting that we don't, you know, that the government doesn't work harder at this, right, and spend more effort. I know a couple of people who do amazingly good work at the VA in terms of counselors, right? They're not managers, they're not executives. They work with the veterans every day, right?

And it's incredible what they do. But overall, as a government, our assistance, right, to veterans, I mean, look at the number of homeless situation, it's pathetic. And so, when he talks about it, it's good that he's talking about it, right? I think that transparency helps and he clearly views it that way too. And He said, look, I don't have any problem with discussing it, but we should be concerned by the fact that somehow his medical records were put out there.

And then some people will look at that and go, well, is that the government's effort to discredit him? Or is that somebody's effort to discredit him? I don't know why anybody else would, why would you do that?

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Joe Speaks to Former CIA Officer Mike Baker About UFO Whistleblower's Claims