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Well, good evening. Welcome to the 24th Foundation Day of the Center for Public Policy at IIM Bangalore. The Center for Public Policy was established in the year 2000 with the collaboration of UNDP, Government of India and IIM Bangalore with the objective of influencing public policy discourse and development outcomes in India through evidence-based policy research, capacity building and outreach. Since then, the center has initiated several activities. The center has been a pioneer in offering the first of its kind post-graduate program in Public Policy and Management in the year 2002 aimed at building capacity among the civil service officers.

18 batches of this program have graduated nearly 500 officers. Many of them have reached highest level in their respective department, ministry and contributed in terms of improving governance in India. This program is being relaunched this year. Another important role the center has played is in designing various in-service long duration training programmes for civil service officers, particularly mid-career training of IAS officers. Several such programmes have been conducted by IIM Bangalore since then for officers in the Forest Service, Foreign Service, Revenue Service, Economic Service, CBI officers, CAG officers, and including programs for elected representatives.

The center carries out research studies in the areas of health, education, environment, ecology, gender, inclusion, agriculture, rural development, legal studies, technology, policy, regulation, public-private patent partnership. The output of these studies is published widely in professional journals, books, as well as in periodicals. Another important activity, the center has been organizing the annual international conference on public policy and management, where nearly 40 to 50 research papers on various public policy issues are presented and discussed by national and international researchers. This year, the 18th conference is scheduled to be held during August 22nd to 24th, focusing on themes such as urban planning, inclusion, water resources and health. A number of seminars, workshops are also conducted on various public policy issues throughout the year.

We conduct Foundation Day Lecture every year on July 10th to mark the occasion of signing MOU between Government of India, UNDP and IAMB by organizing a public lecture, inviting eminent persons who have made a remarkable impact on public policy. Today, we are delighted to have Justice Santosh Hegde deliver this year's Foundation Day Lecture. I extend a warm welcome to Justice Santosh Seghade. Justice Seghade is admired by the people, both within and outside Karnataka for his work on low-cost of Karnataka and as a Supreme Court judge. He joined the bar in the year 1966 and was appointed Advocate General in February 1984.

He was designated as Senior Advocate in May 1984 and continued as Advocate General till 1988. He was appointed as Additional Solicitor General of India in November 1989 and held that office for 11 months. He was appointed Solicitor General of India in 1998. He was appointed directly from the bar as Judge of the Supreme Court of India in 1999, which is rarely done. After his retirement from the Supreme Court in June 2005, he was appointed as Chairperson Telecom dispute settlement appellate tribunal, New Delhi and functioned in that position till August 2006.

He was appointed as Lokayat of Karnataka in 2006 for a term of 5 years. He has been conferred many awards such as Honorary Doctorate of Law by the University of Mangalore in 2005, by Karnataka State Open University, Mysore in 2009, by Tumkur University in 2010, Karnataka Law University, Dharwad in 2011, Alliance University Bangalore in 2011 and he received NADOJA award from Hampik, Kannada University in 2016. He was awarded Man of the Year by Times of India twice in 2010 and 2011, Vijay Karnataka twice by Vijay Karnataka twice in 2006 and 2010, NDTV Indian of the Year in 2010, Bangalore Hall of Fame Award for 2010, Paul Harris Award by the Rotary. He received Public Service Excellence Award in 2011 from the All India Management Association, Sitaram Jindal Foundation Honour for exemplary services in the field of social development. And in 2011, he was awarded Chunchashri Award from Adi Chunchinagiri Mart.

Cash prize money received from these awards amounting to more than a crore has been donated by Justice Higde to various social service organizations. The sports enthusiast in the audience today will be happy to know that in his younger days, he was a hockey player and represented the state of Mysore and University of Mysore. I once again welcome Justice Segede and request him to deliver the Foundation Day lecture.

Good evening, 1 and all. Good evening, 1 and all. Dignitaries in the dais, Director of this institution, Professor Rishikesh Krishnan, Chairperson CPP, Professor Gopalanayak, the other office bearers and lecturers present here, and my dear students of the institution. I do it an honor to be present here to deliver the foundation lecture today. And for me to comment on the achievements of this institution is like carrying coal to Newcastle.

So, I wouldn't make an attempt to do that. I do go in explanation for choosing the subject of this evening's program. I have worked in many positions, but when I came to the institution of Karnataka Lokayaktha, I felt till then I was a frog in the well. I did not know the sufferings of the people. I was comfortable in those positions and I thought many were so comfortable.

But in Lokaikta I realized that my thinking was wrong. I saw so much suffering. I was wondering why it is happening. That too, in the hands of an institution created under the constitution of India to serve the people called the governance. I'm not a political person, never been 1, and at my age I'm 85 now, it's too late to be 1 too.

But I thought for all these things, we can't blame individuals. The fault lies with the society in which we are. For example, when I was young, in my village, if somebody was sent to jail, my parents would tell me, don't go near that house. At that time, I'm talking about 70 years back, there was a social punishment of people who committed social errors. That punishment is not that of the court, but imposed by the society itself because of the thinking of the society at that point of time.

Today, that society's thinking is totally changed, ladies and gentlemen. In my opinion, today's society respects only money and power, nothing else. If you have money, you get a salute. If you are in power, you get a salute. If an honest man is pointed out to you, the answer given is a useless chap.

He doesn't take, he doesn't allow others to take. This is the definition of honesty in today's society. It's in this background, When I realized what was happening in the society, I thought I should do something to bring it to the notice of the people in the society. Not that they're going to change it wholly, but some effort may be done. And in this process, I have visited more than

1, 672

educational institutions, apart from all the other institutions I've addressed. Even governmental organizations have called me to address them. It's because of that and because I do not know any other subject. I told, when he met me that I speak only about the fall in social values and its consequences. Because if you want to change this society, there's no other way out.

Trying out is the only way and in this as many people as possible, if you could join this movement, not movement in the sense we're not going to go down to the maidans and start slogans and that. It is purely private effort. And what is the process that we should follow? That's the 1 message I want to give it to as many people as possible. Therefore, I have chosen this subject today.

In this process, I also realized what is the cause for today's situation in the society. According to me, it is because of growth of a disease in the society called greed. This is 1 ailment which has no treatment. COVID has treatment, cancer has treatment, tuberculosis has treatment, but greed has no treatment. I say in this country, though there have been development in various fields, that which is developed most is this disease called greed.

You all must be knowing the fact I'm going to mention now, as an example to prove my statement that greed is the 1 that has grown and developed the most in this country. I would like to give some instances of scams that have occurred in this country. For 1 decade, I'll give only 1 scam, whereas in 1 decade, there will be hundreds and hundreds of scams and all, I don't have the time, you don't have the time to. In the decade of 50s, there was a scam called Jeep scam. In purchasing Jeep vehicles from Great Britain for our soldiers, few people in power swindled 54 lakhs of rupees in that scam.

Next comes in another decade, a scam called Bofors, purchasing weapons for our soldiers from Sweden. Country lost 64 crores of rupees in that scam. In 70s, there was a scam called Commonwealth Games. Country lost

70, 000

crores of rupees in that scam. This figure is not mine. This is a figure given to Government of India after investigation by the CAG, the Constitutional Authority. He said in Commonwealth Games 70, 000 crores have been siphoned off by few people in administration. Then comes 2G scam.

Then comes 2G scam, country lost

186, 000

crores of rupees. Then came Colgate, the cold scam, country lost

187, 000

crores. 1 scam I'm talking about in 10 years. If you multiply it by

1000,

just imagine the amount of money that have been siphoned off from administration by people who are called people's representatives or executives or members of the judiciary. How can there be any development we are talking about? In 2016, I'm giving that figure because I have read it, you know, the state of Karnataka is an annual budget reserved for 7 and a half crores of people. The whole year,

1, 16, 000

crores, which is now this year

3, 20, 000.

In 1 scan, you lose 1, 87, 000 crores, 1, 86, 000 crores, 70, 000 crores. And it must be much more now, I don't have the figures, the latest figures we have only in percentage because 1 political party has accused the other political party instead of Karnataka, US is a 40% government. Now 40%, imagine last year's budget I think was 2 lakh something and all out of which 40% is siphoned off. Can we ignore this? Just see the consequences of 40%.

If 1 contract for 1 crore rupees is given and 40 lakhs of rupees has to be paid as bribe, How much will the contractor keep? Let us be generous to him and say it is only 25%. So 65 lakhs went in that? And for the whole project, for which it is estimated to be whatever it is, and we get only the balance of the money. Ladies and gentlemen, how can there be any true development?

What is the way out for this? These people are not afraid of law. Transparency International, a German organization, made an assessment of all the countries available for their assessment. And in that report given in 2016, subsequent report, I have not read it. It said in that year, China was more corrupt than India.

And in China, sentence for corruption is death sentence. In India, it is just 7 years. So imagine, people are not afraid of law. That too, in this country, people cannot be afraid of law because by the time the final judgment comes and the man is sent to jail, he'll be 80 to 90 years old. Nobody's trying to do anything about that.

Nobody's trying to bring about any change. People in power don't talk about it except accusing the other political party, you've been more corrupt than that. With this type of money being siphoned off and stored by some people only, can there be peace and solidarity in this society? What is the way out? People are not afraid of law.

There is no medicine to treat it. With my little experience in life, I think the only way out is inculcating a value which our elders had established in the society called contentment. In vernacular It's called Tripti. If you have contentment, you are protected from that disease. It's like a vaccination.

If you get that disease of greed, even thereafter if you inculcate contentment, in my understanding, it will contain that disease. There's no other way out. But where do you acquire this contentment from? It is not available in pharmaceutical firms or any other shop and you don't have to purchase it at all. When I was young, my parents used to tell me the do's and don'ts of life.

And if I made a mistake, I was corporately punished. Today even parents can't corporately punish. Teachers can't do it. And during my time, after getting the punishment at home, when I went to school, there was a subject called moral science, niti pada, which reiterated what my parents told me. So that would do the job against the disease of greed.

But unfortunately, the social changes have taken place in such a manner that this practice is not there. For example, today most of the parents are working couple. Work, according to me, is another disease. You go there, You want to get promotion, you want to get good posting, you want to prove that you are worthy of your postings and promotions and all. So you bring your headache in laptop and work at home with your laptop.

Nobody asks their children, nobody, at least many don't ask their children, what happened in the school? What did you do? And those kids went to go to school, they don't get any teaching from the school either, there's no moral science or sense. How will we ever change? The only way I repeat, by inculcating this value and by all of us, not by chosen few.

Not only inculcate it, but pass it on to your children. And if again, children are there with you during your lifetime. Looks simple, but it requires a lot of determination, without which I foresee no future for this country. I'm a pessimist, I admit. Take my word with a lot of percentage.

Ladies and gentlemen, contentment if you have, any amount of temptation, you will not suffer from it. I have experienced it when I was writing my mining report, when I was a judge also. But I didn't succumb to it because I grew up in a middle class family where my father always told us, after my lifetime, there is nothing for you to share. You have to build your own future for yourself and that's what I've practiced. Otherwise it's now 12 years since I retired.

Practically every day I name 1 or the other person whom I've indicted in my mining report and nobody has been able to say anything against me. I have not done anything wrong. I'm proud to say that. Even when I was introduced, Mr. Naxat, I gave away the money which I got as an award with the thing.

Not 1 rupee I have accepted, except the award itself and all, I have not accepted, 1 rupee. And 1 of the organization gave me 1 crore of rupees, which I gave it to the Indian army, because I didn't want to give it to any NGO or other, lest there should be a rumor he gave a check for 1 crore, took 50 lakhs back and all. I have named 3 chief ministers in my mining report from all political parties of Karnataka. I am content. I get good night's sleep.

There is another value which is very important, ladies and gentlemen, called humanism, manuviyate. We are not born human beings. There's no species called human beings. We are born to a species called Homo sapiens. Humanism is entirely different.

It is built, I mean, introduced in the society by our elders for peace and solidarity in the society. In Karnataka, Kannada poets have written, I'll say it in Kannada and I'll translate it to you. Become what you want to become in life, but become a human being first. I have added to that, and I go to schools and colleges, and I also convey a message. Very nice to it.

Very nice state. Even if you are not born a human being, in the journey of your life if you acquire humanism and die as a human being, there is no better glory than that. With humanism, you will introduce peace and solidarity in the society, which is extremely necessary in today's context, because the way things are happening, the misuse of religion and language is really creating a conflict in the society. And the only way out is accept every religion as as good as your own religion. There may be any amount of shortcomings in those, but you are not the judge to judge it.

Confine your religion and language to yourself and to your house. There will be much more peace in the society. With these 2 values, I can assure you there will be absolute peace in the society. And in the process, develop another attitude of being content with what you legitimately have. You can't be the same as somebody in front of you.

You are not the same as somebody behind you. So you have to be content with what you have legitimately, then you are not dissatisfied. At any point of time in your life, if you feel that injustice has not been done to you, you worked hard but you didn't get the true result for that, don't feel bad. Try and look behind you. How many crores of people have not reached where you have reached.

It's always not good to look ahead of you and compare your problems with what is ahead of you, somebody above you. Try and compare yourself with somebody behind you. Then you will feel at least, okay, I am better off than them. God has been a little generous to me also. This is exactly what is required in the society today, 2 values, contentment and humanism.

Now, how did I get into all this? Karnataka Lokayatra had, during my time, Only 2 paths. 1 is called grievance redressal, giving relief to people who suffer because of maladministration. The other, You can fight against corruption, but not as a lokaiktha, but through the police of the lokaiktha department. Because under the Prevention of Corruption Act, the section reads, any investigation under the Prevention of Corruption Act shall be done by a police officer not below the rank of a Deputy Superintendent of Police.

I didn't raid anybody, but I created a record by the Lokayata Institution raiding it, by the officers that I had, such wonderful officers. They were not wanted in the parent department because they were not willing to do what others wanted them to do. So they were shunted off to another job and 1 of them was Lokayakta. And they found a wonderful place to work in Karnataka Lokayakta. 3 chief ministers in 1 report.

8 ministers,

17

MLAs and MLCs,

157

IAS, IPS and other officers were indicted. Of course, nobody went to jail except 1 chief minister went for 24 days. I'm not going to say why they didn't go to jail. And people who blame each other on the opposite side and this side and all, When they were in power, they never even prosecuted the case against the equity chief ministers. Look at what the political philosophy is.

In 2011, when I gave my report in mining report, it indicted huge companies and multi-crore companies and everything. That report was not implemented by the government of the day. Then the opposition party, which is in power today, said if you don't implement it, we are going to do a statewide protest. Still the government didn't implement it. Then they walked from Bangalore to Ballari, the epicenter of illegal mining, as a protest.

A year and a half later, they came to power. They didn't implement it. Look at the drama. By contra, Lokayata's other 2 powers it had, it removed the power of investigating corruption and gave it to an organization called ACB. About 2 and a half years later, opposition party which protested against removing the Lokakta powers came to administration power.

During that election manifesto said, if we come to power in 24 hours, we'll dismiss the ACB. They came into power and 1 chief minister was there for 24 months, he didn't remove ACB. Suited them. This is their understanding. How because of the fact society respects all those people.

Ladies and gentlemen, please inculcate these 2 values. Otherwise what happens, let me give you a few examples before I conclude. In

2008,

A handicapped tailor and his wife brought a six-month-old child to Karnataka Lokayathwa. I said, what's wrong? He said, sir, this child looks perfectly all right. This child has no rectum. It eats through the mouth, defecates through the mouth.

The local doctor said, don't be worried. You can rectify the deficiency. Take it to a specialty hospital. The pediatric surgeon will do that. They took the child to Hublin Medical College Hospital.

Pediatric surgeon examines the child and he says, I'll do everything all right, but it'll cost you some money. Money is not expenses, money is bribe. They knew it, what's happening. So they're taking little money, they kept that money in the table of the doctor. The doctor counts that money and says for this amount, I'll make a hole near the rib cage, from the fecal matters will go out.

And the child has to wear a bag throughout life. Fortunately for the child, the parents didn't agree for that. They took the money back, brought the child. They didn't take it to another hospital. They brought it to the local office.

We didn't send the child to another government hospital. We took the child to the old airport road, Manipal hospital, where I used to get my treatment and begged of the doctors to do the operation. And the operation was done. That child is today 12 year old girl with no deficiency whatsoever. Every year on her birthday, they FaceTime with me, requesting me to bless the child for the birthday.

You know how happy I feel. Any amount of money wouldn't bring that happiness. Look at this doctor. He must have prayed to God, give me education, make me a doctor, make me a pediatric surgeon, give me a government job. God gave everything.

And what does he do when a child, 6 months old child, to it, he could have given a future. But his greed didn't allow him. This is happening in every hospital. I'm just giving you 1, maybe a multi-billion example. Just imagine if it was 1 of your child.

You can afford to go to private hospital, that's a different thing altogether. But how many can afford it?

2008,

same, the other 1 and all. 2008, another person came from a place called Koppal in North Karnataka, asked him what's your problem? He said, sir, my wife has delivered a girl child. I said, so what? No, sir, there is a scheme of the government of Karnataka called Bagyalakshmi.

And in that scheme, under that scheme, if a girl child is born to a poor family, then that child is entitled for certain monetary benefits over the years. When I asked the social welfare department, they said, no, we have no proof that you are from a poor family. He cried, begged of me to help him. I believed him and sent an officer to Koppal to give a report on the incident. The report says his wife and an accompanying person, wife pregnant, walked 9 kilometers because they couldn't afford to take a bus, came to the district hospital because the rules said, if a child is born in a government hospital, that is 1 piece of evidence to judge a person is rich or poor.

And the staff in the hospital didn't give her the bed. They said first money, then bed. She didn't have it. They didn't listen to her pleas. Then without any listening, she sent the accompanying person back to the village, walking to get some money and come back.

In the meantime, the staff said, don't sit here, sit outside. She had no way out. She crossed the hospital gate, road and sat in the bus stop opposite to the ballistic hospital. Before the money could come, she delivered a child in the bus stop. And the social welfare department says, that's not a hospital.

You have no other proof. In law, there is a principle called vicarious liability. Master is responsible for the mistakes of the servant. Utilizing that process, I sent a report to the government saying this lady and the accompanying person came to the hospital. Your staff didn't allow her to deliver the child there.

So under the principle of vicarious liability, they being your servant and you are responsible to pay with the money and you have to pay. They paid it. But how many people can come to Lokakta from such far distances? How many people suffer it and take this problem on their own? I'll just give 2 more examples and then conclude my address.

2010,

an Air Force officer from Hyderabad telephoned to me. He must have heard my name because by the time I had become notorious, he said, Mr. Hegde, 3 days back, My older brother's 18-year-old daughter is killed in a road accident in Bangalore. Her body is in a government hospital. We have kept an ambulance to bring the body to Hyderabad because we are all old.

All of us can't come to Bangalore. We have to finish our last rites, try and understand our sorrow. Police are not allowing the body to be taken because post-mortem is not done. I said I'll call you back in a couple of hours and I went to that hospital. I asked the superintendent, what's happening?

He said, no, no, no, it couldn't have happened. I have deputed 2 trained doctors to the hospital post-mortem ward. Let's call them and find out. So he sent a peon. Out of 2, 1 came to know Lokayata has come to the guilty conscience, he put leave and went away.

The other comes and look at his dialogue with the superintendent. What's the hurry, sir? Body is not decaying. Body is in the freezer. Am I to treat the living patients first or examine a dead body?

And the superintendent said, who permitted you to examine a living patient when you have been deputed to the post-mortem ward? He said, no, 1 relative of a patient came. He invited me to come and treat his relative because the doctor who's treating him does not know, obviously, his professional thing. So out of humanism, I went there. I asked him, doctor, did you know the patient or his relative earlier?

He said, no, no, no, first time. I said, I understood it. In the main building, there are 30-35 other doctors are there. If you are not satisfied with 1 doctor, you would have gone to another doctor there itself because you don't know who the doctors are in the postmortem ward. But still, leaving all that, you went in search of a doctor in the post-mortem ward to treat your relative.

I know what's happened. I'll sit here until the post-mortem is done and the body is put in the ambulance. And I sat there. Post-mortem was done, the body was sent. He said he went to the main building, got up for humanism.

What would I have done if it was his own daughter? Is humanism confined to the family only? The same year,

2000,

another lady came to me about 80-85 years old, asked her, what's your problem? She said, sir, I have no income. I have 1 son working in Mumbai. He sends me 250 rupees by money order. Postman wants 10% of that.

If you don't give it, he'll put an endorsement, visited the house 3 times, address not found, return to the sender. Money never reached his son at all. I wanted to help this lady, but I couldn't because postman didn't come within my jurisdiction. He was a central government employee. To help this lady, I called the concerned officer who had many swords and Ashoka pillars and stars here.

I told him the problem. He must have calculated during our conversation,

250

rupees, 10%, 25 rupees. He tells me, sir, my officers are busy investigating lakhs and crores of scam. I don't have officers. You have a police force. You do it yourself.

Okay. This is a postman who's paid to do that job. He knows everything about this lady because postman doesn't get transferred easily. They know everything what's happening in the house. Still, His greed didn't allow him to give the money to her.

Here is an All India Service officer. It is below his dignity to investigate a 25 rupees case. Where is the administration? I'm giving you an example of 4 cases, out of maybe 4 lakh cases that have come to my jurisdiction in 5 years. How do people survive in this?

What is the meaning of democracy? Please understand. In 1946, when our elders created a body called Constituent Assembly to draft a constitution for this country, They created 3 pillars, the legislature, the executive, and the judiciary. There, while creation of this pillar came up and all for discussion, a topic came up for consideration after getting independence, what type of a political system that this country should adopt when it became independent. You know, what our people argued?

They didn't ask for better benefits for themselves as it's happening today. They didn't ask for free land for the MLAs to go in the toll gates. The topic that was discussed was, we recently, I mean, there were multiple political systems in the world, you know, and there was monarchy, there was the dictatorship, the Islam-based politics, communism, socialism, capitalism, such like the political systems were there. In between was a system called democracy. And our elders argued, we Indians were never ever independent.

We were under the rules of Rajas, Maharajas, Amindas, foreigners. They never allowed us to make the law. They made the law and first we had to follow it. If we didn't follow it, we were punished. Now that we are going to become independent, let's adopt a political system by which every Indian feels this government is mine, by me and for me.

That was the standard of political debate. The issues were discussed not thinking about their personal benefits. There was another issue that came for discussion there. After the creation of the legislature, if a person wants to contest for election to that poor legislature's post, should he have an educational qualification? Baba Sahib Ambedkar said, you are the lawmakers.

If you want to come there, you must understand the consequences of your acts. For that, you require educational qualifications. And the editor of the Constituent Assembly debate writes, most of the members agreed, Yes, educational qualification was necessary. But little later, 1 member stood up and addressed the house. And he said, recently we adopted democracy as a political system of this country and you said democracy means government of the people, by the people, for the people.

Today, sir, he said, the population of the country is 40 crores,

1946.

And

80%

of that 40 crores are total illiterates. Are you reserving

20%

seats to the elected, educated people only. And that decision to have educational qualification was dropped. Such was the standard of debate at that point of time. You are reading now what's happening. I'm not going to delve into it.

Ladies and gentlemen, just think of your future, your children's future. Don't think what can you do? I alone can change. If you can't change, others won't change also. Please, for the sake of the nation, for our own benefit of peace and solidarity, Let's inculcate these 2 values and practice it.

Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity. Thank you. Thank you.

Good evening, sir.

My

name is Pooja Bedi. I've stood up for a lot of social causes over the years. Everyone knows me. I'm very active in social media as well. We are constantly, all of us, almost accept corruption as a way of life.

I don't, I stand up to it and I get punished for it. We turn therefore to the police or to other institutions that we've created as a legislature, judiciary and the police force. And you don't have help or recourse from those ends as well. In many real cases, when you sought the help of the police for certain things, and there's an element of great corruption and you're up against that, you run down to the judiciary for help. And there are no measures out there as well, because again, you're confronted by an ocean of either corruption or delays in the judicial processes and the cases that have gone for 20 years because the system is choked.

So how do you get justice when you want justice, you're willing to stand up for it, you're willing to fight for it but the system is choked. What can you do?

There is a way out, provided people involved in the system, as well as outside the system, are willing to bring about the change. That is a system prevailing in the United States. In the United States, there are only 2 courts, first court and the second court. If you fail in the first court and take it up in the appeal and you fail there also, that person who fails in both the courts is punished heavily by monetary punishment and all. Thereafter, there is no court.

There is no appeal court. There is no federal court. There is no Supreme Court in America. This whole matter gets over at the 2 court stage only. Whereas in India, We have the first court.

We have the 1 appeal court. We have the high court. We have the Supreme Court. Now, a person who loses in the first court goes on appealing to the next court, the next court, next court. So amongst the litigants, there is a, you will say, that let me delay the proceeding.

That benefits me. Ultimate result will come after 50 years or 60 years and all that. So this gives an opportunity for speculative litigation. If today the courts are full of litigation pending cases, out of which, according to me, at least 80%, 85% are speculative litigations. That is, just wanting to take time until the final judgment comes and all.

Therefore, I for 1, I believe, and I've publicly spoken, I've spoken in the high court functions also. A time has come when you have to now confine the proceedings to 2 courts only. 1 court, being a human being presiding over that court, let's have another court just to have a second opinion. Beyond that, no. So there will be no speculative litigations because then it becomes unreasonable for the people involved in it and all the same.

But nobody's interested because 1 set of lawyers are there in the trial court, Another set of lawyers are there in the first appeal court. Another set is in the high court. Another set in the Supreme Court and all. So nobody wants to interfere with the system.

So what do we do about that? How can we change that?

Yeah, this is a thing. But it's like my speaking here or speaking anywhere else. I speak about it. I don't care a damn about it. Recently in the High Court also I spoke, and I pleaded with the judges, provide a way out of justice system.

Provide an exit from justice system, which I've seen it. You know, how would you learn otherwise? In cities like Calcutta and Mumbai, I'm told, the underground is taking over justice delivery system. It's very easy. So I'm giving you an example.

You are the tenant. I'm the landlord. I want the house for whatever reason. My son wants it or something. I don't have any kids.

Anyway, as I said. Now, I don't go to court. I go to the underground people and tell them, I want you to evict that lady. I'll give whatever the price you charge and all. He will charge.

It will be much less than the 4 lawyers you have to pay, first court, second court, third court, fourth court, and all. And he will come to you, said better vacate, otherwise I'll kidnap your daughter, I'll murder your son. You have to vacate. There's instant justice on payment of 1 way fees, end of the thing. That will come if we don't really, really change the system by confining it to much quicker delivery system.

And once that system comes, people will not go on speculative litigation. Then the regular system itself will become very fast.

Well, I mean, I'll give you an example, OK, if I may. Is that OK if I get to give a quick example? I had a friend, Karina O'Boyd. And we have fought our lives for women's rights and for making these stringent laws to take care of women in untoward situations, but they've been misusing the law greatly. In his particular case, there's this girl who came up and the cops come to him last of court closing and say, just come for some questioning.

And he goes off and they tell him you're being wanted for rape, arrested for rape. And he says, excuse me, what do you mean? I'm arrested for the sweetest, nicest person. And the end is that who is the person? And they had mentioned her name.

And he balked and he said, I filed 3 cases in this very police station against this person. And they said, show us the complaints. He said, not me being police station, your police station. They said, well, show us the proof. And He said, I'm going to go in and get the papers.

You think you can't go home? They said, all right, when did I rape her? He said, 2 years ago. Where did I rape her? Oh, she doesn't remember.

What date? Doesn't really remember. It was approximately 2 years ago. He says, all right, let me show you messages in my phone from this girl, which is the reason I've been filing all these cases in your police station. And messages from you stating, Hi, Karim, I want sex.

I want just your body. My commitment's attached. He replied saying, No, thank you. I want to concentrate on my career. She's messaged him innumerable times.

I want to meet you. I want you to sing for me. They still arrest this man. They still arrest him. Some week, 2 years ago, don't have...

They arrest him. He spends 14 years in a hard-core prison with unimaginable stuff happening to him. And he's a famous person. He's guilty until proven innocent. Front pages, cutting head, no rapist.

No father for rapist, mother for rapist, sister for rapist, friend of a rapist. We fought really hard to get him out. I've been requested the police had to please find out who had done this. The CCTV cameras, etc, etc. It was a brother of a lawyer.

Okay. This is again in the papers. All of this is in the papers. The court is going on, the case is going on for more than 4 years. This man is anguished, he goes dating, he, night after night to court.

Neither does the police system work for them because they are randomly arrested and knowingly, and since Gurdiy has done it before to Adam Ran as well. They have arrested the men wrongly, the court systems doesn't help them. How do you give justice to a man who's been permanded? People get thrown out of their jobs, out of the family's lives, and they're socially ostracized. And this is the kind of system we're up against and there's nothing we can do.

The only way out is join them and pay the bribe. No way out. No way out, otherwise the system will never change. I'm not really seriously telling you to pay the bribe. Because that is the 1 which is prevailing today for everything in our everyday life.

It could be the judicial system in this country, it could be the legislature. The legislature till 1970, they had no salary, They had no perks. They were paid the transportation charge to the assembly place or the parliament place. They were given a room. They were given concession food and all, but nothing else.

From 70 onwards, they are paid full salary for 12 months for a job of 100 days in a year. Now in that 100 days if you read Google and see how many days did the Karnataka legislature work and all, only 25 days but they got salary for 12 months and all. Money is the only thing today which speaks and all, nothing else and all. Therefore, either you change and fight against it or.

Well, we are fighting the problems, where is the solution in this? How do we find solution for a case? But we do have solution for the system.

So the

same thing, as you are talking about being in business, you know, and being a woman entrepreneur, we see day in and day out these kind of problems. If you are, you know, driving, your things are done. If you're not driving, you know, things are not done. As you were saying, we have to stand up for this 1. Definitely we are ready to stand up but at the cost of you know, closing down our businesses.

So how do you expect us to close down the businesses and come and come ahead and you know, support this kind

of thing? I have only 1 thing to say, is to point out what is the cause, what is troubling people today. I know what I am suggesting, it takes a long time before it could come out. And 1 day it is going to come. But how it will come is another question.

That is, if it comes to a revolution, is the end of the story of this country. Therefore, I would only plead with you, try not to pay bribe. Discourage people from paying bribe. Otherwise, there's no way out. If you justify it by, I can't leave without paying bribe, I have no answer for that.

I know the sufferings of the people who do not pay bribe, what happens and all, the thing and all. Like the other lady said and all, somebody must have paid bribe to the police and all, who are now ignoring the complaint filed by 1 party and pursuing the complaint of another party and all. Therefore, I can only project and say what is in my mind which may bring about a change, a change which is more peaceful than a change through devolution. Otherwise, there is no way out.

So you are definitely true. But again, because you have been in the system and you know how it works, it will be great if you guide us to create some kind of a forum where we can use this. Because you said that you have personally helped people in achieving those things. So I would love to be a part of that particular forum if you are writing us.

I don't have a forum. But let me tell you 1 thing. People come to me very often, and I try to show the way out to them. I go to Loka Yagda. And Loka Yagda has got the power, and it can help the people.

And sometimes we call up and tell somebody else in the Loka Yagya office to please help this person. They do help in a matter. They have the power. But you can go to Loka Yagya. That is an institution created for that.

How effective it is, you'll find it yourself. It could be.

Thank you. Hello, sir. Good evening, and thank you so much for making this session, which talks on social values and all these issues that are coming up, it all boils down to the same point that we are as humans losing our kindness, values, and everything that actually makes us human being. So, sir, actually, I also run my business. But however, I deeply associate with the topic that you are talking about.

And I'm getting down my question because I wanted to be to the point. So a doctor practices medicine to become a good doctor. A lawyer practices law to become a great lawyer. So what can we do to practice empathy and kindness to become good human beings? So for example, with recent news of immense violence against nature and animals that comes out, it kind of shows us the mentality people are getting into.

It's like a mirror of the society. With the recent violence, not just to nature and animals, but even to fellow humans. So, seeing all this, my office is situated in 1 of the top B-schools of the country. So I tried collaborating with some students and starting a community that will help us to spend some time with nature and animals because scientifically it has been proven that if you spend time with nature, animals and even small children, you incur great values in life, you incur empathy and kindness. So the feedback that I got, initially people were very excited, yeah, we can do it and even I spoke to the directors.

After some time, the feedback I got, ma'am, we don't have time to do this because our curriculum is extremely hectic. We don't have time to practice this kind of operation. So my question is, how can young people like us collaborate with leaders like you to build certain policies that can come up in our society that encourages practicing empathy and kindness.

Try it yourself to the extent possible and don't judge it from the failure of 1 attempt or 2 attempts like that and all. As I mentioned to you in Karnataka the institution of Lokayata is there to help people not only from criminal activities of this and all, but also from regular mischief that is being played with the thing. First of all, we should inculcate, as you are practicing, the 2 values is contentment in life and humanism. Now, humanism is something which is not confined only to human beings only. Humans activity vis-a-vis other living animals or plants or whatever it is, There also we have an act of humanism when you try to help them out and save them from problem and other things.

These are things we should inculcate. But this process, I must warn you, it's a long drawn process. It is not going to give you a result tomorrow unless you yourself are able to help a person out of a problem on the spot and all that. That's an entirely individual matter. But we want to change the society.

We want to change the thinking of the society of respecting people. See, I didn't complete that, what I was saying. But I said, when I was young, my parents wouldn't allow me to go to a house where there was a conviction and all that. You know what's happening today? People have committed serious crimes.

Go to jail, take a bail and come out. Thousands of people go to the airport to receive them. They put Apple Gardens, shout slogans in their favor. Today, in the assembly, there is a person who is accused of murder, apart from other people who the criminal cases are pending. Is this a society which our elders have contemplated?

There should be some element of respect to the social is a requirement to the thing. That's exactly what we have to write. I am not very sure whether my theory of inculcating 2 values will bring about a change or not, but I don't find anything better than that. That's why I've been going around. Even at my age of 84, I travel around and all, and speak to people about it.

Change comes, it's OK. Otherwise, nothing can be done.

So with your support, we can definitely

I'm ready and willing, so long as I can walk around and talk and all you can always contact me I'll give you the advice and if possible I have to involve myself I will involve myself I assure you that.

Hello, sir, was really nice listening to you. You know, I guess I'm going to be the voice of pretty much everyone here. Everybody is frustrated with the judiciary system of India. I have a very simple question, which might have a very difficult answer. From your end, What is the answer?

If you were given a week to come up with a plan on how we can change the judicial system of India, who would be able to execute your plan, and why are we not able to execute it?

What I suggested just now, reducing the number of appeals for just 1 appeal after the trial court judgment, that is what is happening in the United States and all, where there is no speculative litigation. The courts are not flooded with the data. You know the American Supreme Court works for 15 days a month and 6 months in a year only. Indian Supreme Court in the 50s had an annual filing of only 1, 000 cases a year. Today it is in lakhs.

And the pending cases are in millions. How can the Supreme Court with 7 judges when it started in India, today it is that 34 judges are there. What is the use of increasing the number when you allow these cases to come, go there and all this thing? So we have to curtail the number of appeals. It's not that the first appeal judge cannot be trusted so it should be a second appeal judge, third appeal judge, like that and it could not be like that.

Restrict it and I'm sure that cases in every court will be over in 1 year.

So we all are aware of this problem. The solution is right there in front of you. What is stopping us as a country?

I'm telling you in spite of the fact there is going to be a revolution, I mean a revolt against me and all. It is the professional people involved in the system. See, trial court lawyer doesn't want that court to be stopped, because this is where the law of the army comes from there. Now, first appeal, there's a separate set of lawyers. Second appeal, there's a separate set of lawyers.

Supreme Court, there's a separate set of lawyers. They won't allow it, Unless the government of the day is powerful enough to say, I don't care a damn, I'm stopping this anymore. And 1 day it will happen, because this system will disappear, as I told you, when the underground takes over the justice delivery system.

So the government and the highest judges in our country have to

sit together. The judicial system itself, including lawyers, they all should sit together and think of their future and decide on a quicker disposal of cases.

Because it's been like years and years, we are the customer and we are always complaining that the system is the

biggest failure. That's why I discussed this in front. I don't think any other lawyer or a judge will discuss this.

Thank you. Thank you, sir. That was a wonderful session. And I wanted to make a point that I wanted to make a point that you are talking about the more than 5 in the school that I have also experienced more than 5 in the

school that I have also experienced when I was in school, but it's lacking

for the past 20 years. So the first and the So the first and the formal solution of inculcating the values when they are young, we have to catch up when they are young. So, I do think that you will agree with me that school education and college education system must make it mandatory to give up moral science values while that has not been amended for so many years? And it is very surprising that while this is not, it has been called another subject. While we people, what we are talking, what we are talking of judges or any kind of departments, it's only an education system which can make a remarkable change in

the society. I fully agree with you. I am talking with the experience that what impression I had or the moral science subject I had. But then you are forgetting 1 thing. The first step is not school.

The first step is at home. Parents. Children follow their parents. So if parents have certain principles in life, and that principle is then carried on to the next stage, that is education, then the system will become very strong. So at home, that system should be there.

That is the best. And I am very proud to say the fact that we are from a middle class family. And we were told to live with what you legitimately earned. Then my father practiced it. Even after he was a Supreme Court judge, he resigned from there and came and got elected and went to Parliament, became the Speaker.

When he died, he had just a two-room house in a small village, they call it Nitte, only 2 rooms. And he was happy, we were happy. We have not inherited anything from him except the values which he inculcated in us. Therefore, first step is at home. The second should be education because education really really inculcates some good things and some bad things which they're taught there also in the process and all.

So, I'm from Nehru. In the judicial system, I have some opinion. I mean, I would like to inform you because I went through the judicial system also related to consumer forums and remaining also. Here, 1 best example we have seen the implement is Aadhaar Act. That is, now made worldwide famous.

Our nation Bharat became worldwide famous with only best example is Aadhaar. And also Aadhaar is not in a 1 day or 1 year, 2 year. It is continuously improve and implement. Act is updating, amendments are adding, and also I have in 1 year, adding 1 amendment also. So it is going on.

Similarly, why can't we make it in judicial system also? Changes.

No, what change, by the way? How do you compare Aadhaar system with judicial system? Excellent question, sir. No, I am not very familiar with the good and bad of Aadhaar system and all, though I have an Aadhaar card. But how does it apply to judicial?

Judiciary is a dispute resolution system.

Yeah.

Other is not a dispute resolution, it's only identification system. Now, in judiciary, people go to a third party to solve their problem and that is they call the judiciary. Earlier days, they had so much of respect. And there was a slogan called justice delayed is justice denied. But today, that slogan is kept aside.

Today, there's a slogan called justice hurried is justice buried. That suits the present day situation that's going on and all. Therefore, we have to have a movement against this. Let's start a movement against the judicial system also. Why do you want 5444?

Sir, here in judicial system also, making delay is too much long.

But when I have seen an update in the removing the delay in the honorable court. Please. Kindly, because there are lakhs and lakhs of cases pending in the court. But those are the challenges for us. Yeah, that's why

you have to. For the new generation. No, but that, what I say is, this temptation of laws delays should be stopped.

Yeah.

So I think the best way is to have not more than 2 courts and the litigation there and all. You have to accept it. Don't you accept it when the Supreme Court delivers the judgment ultimately? Who is the Supreme Court judge? He's as much a human being as the first court judge, municipal magistrate and all.

He can make a mistake, Supreme Court judge also can make a mistake. So there is no such thing as, what the deliver of judgment by the Supreme Court is God's own decision and all. It's as much a human decision as the first quote and all. So according to me, reduce the number of fora. That's the best thing and people also will stop going to the higher fora because it's of no use to them.

But I want to add a few more points too.

I think we can take it outside maybe. Actually, this lecture was actually being online also and there is 1 question from online.

Yeah, so I think 1 point which has been raised and is part of the policy aspect as well is a lot of policies are made with not necessarily representing the people and the references are for example, introduction of electric vehicles. Do we see, I mean, there are many theories of the fact that maybe some industry wants it or some segment or some player or there could be cronyism, there could be a whole lot of possibilities of corruption that may be associated and there is no involvement of people. So what would be your take or your view on policy making being more legitimate and representative of actual.

Sorry, I feel totally outside my head. So I wouldn't want to risk.

In a way, it also reflects some of the things of if any change has to come about in judiciary as an institution.

Yeah, that I can say. Sorry, go ahead.

No, no,

no. As far as judicial system is concerned, I want a drastic change. Confirm the Supreme Court for constitutional matters only, not for civil disputes, criminal disputes, and other things. For specialized things, for example, policy matters, interpretation, and others, you create a fora which is entirely different. Now, all the cases come only to the judicial system, which clogs the system, have an expert body which decides, and it ends there.

Now policy matters, how can a Supreme Court judge decide on policy matters? A policy matter requires certain basic information, which is not available to judges. Even if it is available to judges, they are not experts to decide on that and all. Even whether the electrical vehicle should be there in the market, or it should be diesel vehicles only, petrol vehicles only, CNG vehicles only, are matters which is left to the administration to decide how 1 appeal for of experts in that field and that should be the end of the matter. My thing is litigation should end at the second level itself, that should not be more than that.

Thank you sir for the wonderful messages. Now I request our director Rishikesh Krishnan to felicitate Justice Hegde with a memento. Now I request our director to address the gallery.

Good evening to all of you. On this occasion, let me compliment the Center for Public Policy for the excellent work they have done over more than 20 years now. In many areas of public policy, our faculty, colleagues and other researchers, PhD students and everyone else who has been involved with the center have made very important contributions both in terms of policy analysis, suggesting changes in policy, doing very rigorous analysis of existing policies, of course, publishing papers, reflecting their research on the impact of many of these policies and regulations on society and so on. And I really look forward to seeing the continued good output of the Center for Public Policy in the years to come. So it's certainly a good occasion for us to appreciate all the contributions of CPP over the years.

I would also like to compliment CPP for putting in place this Foundation Day Lecture of the Centre and for having a very eminent speaker to address all of us every year. We just heard Justice Santosh Hegde focusing on a very, very crucial matter as far as society is concerned about the decline in social values. The debate he was able to generate among us even for the short period of time, give us an indication of how important that subject is to many of us. And I would like to thank Justice Hegde for being with us and sharing his views on this most important topic. On behalf of the Institute, I can assure him that we will continue to continue to pay attention to this particular issue and we will do whatever we can to see how we can play an important role in arresting or at least trying to address the decline in social values.

Let me thank all of you for being here. I know there's a separate vote of thanks, but I'm really happy that so many of you were here to participate in this lecture this evening. Thank

you.

Yeah, good evening. And on behalf of the Center for Public Policy and the Institute, thank you, sir, for a wonderful lecture. I think it is, In many ways, we need to revisit the roots that you have so rightly pointed out. And while it is not an easy solution, I think that was the 1 of the things that we need to understand. It's a struggle, it's a sacrifice.

And I think we need to dedicate ourselves just like how you have over the years. At each position you have held, you have gone on to excel even further than what you have done in the past and I think that's a role model in itself for all of us. So thank you very much for being with us and sharing your thoughts. I also wish to thank our director who has been a wonderful support for the center itself. In fact, I am Bangalore is 1 of the first, not 1 of the first, the first I am in the country to have started public policy as a separate area as well as a program on public policy and management.

But none of that would be possible without the support of our directors over the past as well as our current director, Professor Rishi Keshkrishnan. Thank you. Thank you very much. I must also take this occasion, many of these events as well as the conference that is going to come up would not be possible without our staff in the CPP office, Shashikala, Kavitha and Chandru, all of those people who are there, I think and Raju as well and so thank you again. We must take a mention, we have been able to, what do you call it, communicate.

Today's communication is not unidimensional, it is social media and a whole host of things of which even I don't understand everything, but I'm told it has been beamed and streamed and communicated to many others. So thanks a lot for the communication department and Kavita is also here too, thanks to all of you. And I don't know whoever said that women don't have a voice because we found all questions to be coming from the women participants today. So thank you, I think we have had people from the Women Entrepreneurship Program coming here and participating and all of you as well for joining us. Thank you once again and we look forward to seeing you as part of our events in the future as well.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.