- The hosts of the podcast took some time off to do research on the future of finance and real-world assets.
- They discuss the growth of protocols like Maker and Ondo in the real-world asset space.
- Stablecoins have seen significant growth, settling over $11 trillion on-chain and surpassing the volumes of payment systems like PayPal and Visa.
- Tether is currently the dominant stablecoin, with the majority of stablecoin activity occurring on the Tron and BSC blockchains.
- The hosts express curiosity about Tron's success in the Latin American market and express bullishness on crypto payment startups.

- The dominance of Bitcoin and lack of stablecoin activity led to the creation of a stablecoin backed by BTC and the development of on and off ramps in LATAM.
- Crypto infrastructure has improved with account abstracted wallets and integrated on and off ramps.
- Kravata, a startup in LATAM, has grown 20 times this year, indicating demand for stablecoins in the region.
- Timing is crucial in the success of crypto products, as many failed ideas were simply too early.
- Tokenizing real world assets like real estate requires considering liquidity and demand.
- Tokenizing treasury bills is currently timely due to the higher yield compared to other on-chain options.
- Real world assets offer diversification for on-chain wealth and provide traditional assets with access to cheaper liquidity sources.
- The timing for tokenizing different asset classes needs to be evaluated individually.
- Possible asset classes for tokenization include bonds, commercial debt, real estate, and structured credit.

- The speaker discusses the yield opportunities in the DeFi market and the nostalgia factor of collectibles like Pokémon cards and Magic the Gathering cards.
- They mention the benefits of tokenizing high-value collectibles, such as reducing the risk of damage or theft and providing the option to sell or borrow against them.
- The speaker also talks about the appreciation of Magic the Gathering cards over the years and the potential demand for tokenized assets like gold.
- They discuss the macroeconomic factors that could drive investors towards Bitcoin and the potential for tokenized carbon credits to create a more transparent and accessible marketplace.
- The speaker highlights the value of tokenized real-world assets in DeFi, including the ability to borrow against them and the composability with other protocols.
- They mention the need for a consumer app to bring DeFi to a wider audience.

- The conversation discusses the potential of creating a consumer app or neobank app to increase participation in decentralized finance (DeFi).
- The introduction of real-world assets (RWAs) could attract different types of institutions and constituents, leading to increased onboarding in DeFi.
- The preference is for consumer-focused DeFi as it has fewer internal frictions and compliance issues compared to institutions.
- RWAs can include bonds, real estate, gold, and collectibles, and MakerDAO is exploring the creation of a new brand using Solana's virtual machine.
- The new brand aims to enhance security by allowing the community to roll back the chain in case of governance attacks.
- MakerDAO is also creating sub-DAOs that will enable the extension of its capital base into real-world assets, offering diversified portfolios to DeFi users.
- The conversation highlights the potential of real-world assets in attracting institutions and individuals to DeFi.
- The guest, Scott Lewis, is bullish on real-world assets and has expertise in the DeFi space.

- The speaker identifies DeFi and NFTs as paradigm shifts in the blockchain space.
- They were early on in the NFT space and missed the opportunity to mint CryptoPunks.
- Real world assets on-chain offer a new way to solve important problems in traditional finance, such as loans and finance.
- Tokenizing traditional assets on-chain provides more liquidity and transparency compared to traditional finance.
- The speaker refers to this type of finance as "neo finance" and acknowledges that it is not fully decentralized.
- The regulatory approach for real world assets varies depending on the jurisdiction and the specific money market.
- There are three types of real world assets: real securities, ownership titles to off-chain assets, and receipts/certificates of off-chain assets.
- The speaker agrees with the thesis that receipts and certificates of off-chain assets are the most viable for onboarding to the blockchain.
- They acknowledge the lack of clarity in regulation and anticipate more clarity in the next 2 to 5 years.

- The speaker is discussing the difference between putting stocks and US Treasuries on-chain.
- They mention American depository receipts (ADRs) as a tokenized bridging of stocks into a different chain.
- The speaker is excited about tokenizing short-term T-bills and less liquid assets like auto loans and trade financing.
- They discuss the demand for on-chain T-bills and suggest that it may come from emerging markets or crypto-native organizations.
- The speaker believes that the current macro status of raising interest rates could be a strong tailwind for DeFi and accelerate the adoption of RWAs.
- They mention the potential for tokenizing structured credit, commercial real estate, and carbon offsets, but note that demand may depend on the unique features and benefits offered on-chain.
- The speaker suggests that the ability to finance and borrow against these assets on-chain could drive demand for tokenization.

- The speaker is unsure about the potential for tokenizing real estate and precious metals.
- They are bullish on collectibles, citing a $6 trillion market and the ability to solve issues of damage and theft through trusted custodians.
- The speaker believes that creating more efficiencies for speculators and traders in collectible markets could be possible.
- They discuss the potential for tokenizing wine to avoid import taxes and the ability to redeem physical items with tokens.
- The speaker disagrees with the idea of ignoring real-world assets in favor of internet-native assets, citing the importance of capital formation and the validation of stablecoins.
- They suggest that tokenizing traditional assets could increase demand and make access easier for a wider range of people.
- The speaker believes that on-chain protocols could be more efficient for transacting in traditional assets, but acknowledges the challenge of convincing counterparties to adopt these protocols.

- The podcast hosts discuss the growth of protocols like Maker and Ondo in the real-world asset space.
- Stablecoins have seen significant growth, with Tether being the dominant stablecoin.
- The hosts express curiosity about Tron's success in the Latin American market and bullishness on crypto payment startups.
- Tokenizing real-world assets like real estate and treasury bills is timely and offers diversification for on-chain wealth.
- There is potential for tokenizing different asset classes such as bonds, commercial debt, and structured credit.
- The speaker highlights the value of tokenized real-world assets in DeFi and the need for a consumer app to increase participation.
- MakerDAO is exploring the creation of a new brand using Solana's virtual machine to enhance security.
- Real-world assets could attract institutions and individuals to DeFi and solve important problems in traditional finance.
- The regulatory approach for real-world assets varies, and more clarity is expected in the next 2 to 5 years.
- Tokenizing short-term T-bills and less liquid assets like auto loans and trade financing has potential demand.
- The current macro status of raising interest rates could accelerate the adoption of RWAs.
- Tokenizing structured credit, commercial real estate, and carbon offsets could drive demand if unique features and benefits are offered.
- The speaker is unsure about the potential for tokenizing real estate and precious metals but bullish on collectibles.
- Tokenizing traditional assets could increase demand and make access easier for a wider range of people.

- The speaker believes that on-chain protocols are more efficient but face challenges due to the strong network effects of the traditional finance system.
- The on-chain version would have lower frictions if all counterparties and issuers were already onboarded.
- Sleepier markets with high yields and fewer counterparties, such as small and medium American businesses and auto loans, are likely to succeed on-chain.
- Music NFTs have potential but have not performed well. The speaker is trying to solve the compatibility issue between music NFTs and traditional distribution.
- The speaker suggests creating a format where songs can be recombined like Legos, allowing for a unique and deeper music experience while maintaining compatibility with traditional distribution.

- The piece discusses the concept of on-chain generative music, where there can be 10,000 different copies of an original album, each with unique changes to the music.
- These copies are minted and exclusive to super fans, who can customize the music to their preferences.
- This allows fans to have a deeper and more meaningful connection with the artist's work.
- The discussion also mentions projects like Euler Beats and Sound XYZ that are exploring different ways to distribute music to super fans.
- The idea is to have a hybrid approach that combines algorithmically generated music with the potential to become a favorite song.
- The speaker emphasizes that everything in this space is still new and can change quickly.

- The speaker believes that on-chain protocols are more efficient but face challenges due to the strong network effects of the traditional finance system.
- Sleepier markets with high yields and fewer counterparties are likely to succeed on-chain.
- Music NFTs have potential but have not performed well, and the speaker aims to solve the compatibility issue between music NFTs and traditional distribution.
- The speaker suggests a format where songs can be recombined like Legos, allowing for a unique music experience while maintaining compatibility with traditional distribution.
- On-chain generative music allows for unique copies of an album, minted exclusively for super fans who can customize the music.
- Projects like Euler Beats and Sound XYZ are exploring different ways to distribute music to super fans.
- The speaker emphasizes that everything in this space is still new and subject to change.

Imran and Qiao bring on Scott Lewis to discuss the growing trend of tokenizing real world assets.
No BS crypto insight for founders.


Timestamps

00:00 Intro
00:51 Welcome to Good Game
01:15 What we are going to talk about today
01:54 Real world assets gaining traction in DeFi
03:26 Rapid growth of RWAs in Maker and other protocols
04:29 Stablecoins settling over $11 trillion on chain
06:32 Interesting data points about stablecoin usage
08:41 Factors contributing to the success of crypto payment startups
09:47 Challenges faced by early attempts at crypto payments
11:18 Commercialization of real world asset utility through startups
12:36 Importance of understanding demand before tokenizing assets
14:25 Tokenizing treasury bills as a potential asset class
20:24 Potential tokenization of collectibles like Pokemon and Magic: The Gathering cards
22:26 Appreciation of collectible cards and nostalgia driving demand
23:44 Nikita Bier's tweet on belief in crypto and global events
24:10 Potential demand for tokenized gold.
25:52 Tokenized carbon credits and their potential on-chain.
27:49 Tokenizing assets without a liquid secondary market.
29:01 Composability of RWAs with DeFi protocols.
31:21 MakerDAO's plan to create a new brand and extending capital base into real-world assets.
35:50 Let's bring on Scott Lewis
37:43 Lack of strong thesis on why tokenizing assets makes sense
38:24 Scott's background
41:25 Scott's interest in real world assets due to solving important problems
41:43 Tokenizing assets provides open liquidity and transparency
44:39 KYC/AML requirements vary for different issuers and money markets
45:20 Real world assets in DeFi are a hybrid of centralized and decentralized
46:59 Gabriel Shapiro's tweet - 3 types of RWAs that exist
48:29 Scott's role as a builder of infrastructure for real world assets
48:42 Discussion about representing builders
49:48 The difference between tokenizing stocks and US Treasuries
51:05 Excitement about tokenizing specific asset classes
54:24 Question about the demand for on-chain T-bills
55:45 Underground trading groups and interest rates as a tailwind for DeFi
57:28 Discussion on the demand for traditional assets in DeFi
59:55 Bullish or bearish on tokenizing real estate?
01:00:11 Uncertainty about tokenizing precious metals and collectibles
01:00:29 Pokemon cards and Magic: The Gathering cards discussed
01:02:05 Speculators vs end collectors in the collectibles market
01:02:46 Making access to real world assets easier
01:05:38 Debate on the importance of real world assets in crypto
01:08:36 Demand and cost efficiencies driving real world asset tokenization
01:12:01 The next asset class that is most likely to get tokenized and succeed on-chain
01:13:31 Music NFTs and their potential in the market

Scott Lewis Twitter: https://x.com/scott_lew_is

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Apple Podcast: https://apple.co/3snLsxU
Website: https://goodgamepod.xyz
Twitter: https://twitter.com/goodgamepodxyz

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DISCLAIMER: The views expressed herein are personal to the speaker(s) and do not necessarily reflect the views of any other person or entity. Discussions and answers to questions are intended as generalized, non-personalized information. Nothing herein should be construed or relied upon as investment, legal, tax, or other advice.

Welcome to Goodgame, your No BS insights for crypto founders.

Boring types of assets, but assets that like don't have liquid secondary markets and like don't have that many players that are securitizing them in traditional finance.

Think about like auto loan market, SMB receivables, trade financing, like these types of things that aren't like as huge as like treasuries or mortgage backed securities or like high paid corporate debt, but are maybe a little sleepier, probably a little more efficient cost structures.

That's kind of like where I think like protocols will maybe have, and the crowdsourcing that comes with protocols might have like the biggest efficiency gains.

Looking for your next startup idea in crypto?

Check out our request for startups list and get inspired at Alliance.xyz forward slash ideas.

I think it's important, especially running this podcast for over a year now, that we take some time off and start to do some deep research and understanding where we see the future.

So, and we also had a demo day with Alliance, which turned out to be incredible for the founders that we're backing.

So overall, I thought it was fun and good to take some time off.

So what are we going to talk about today, Imran?

I see a lot of tweets every day about it and why it's the future of finance.

You have the Chainlink Marines, they're gearing up for their narrative.

They've been wanting a narrative for a very long time.

You could see Sergey going on to many, many podcasts talking about how Chainlink will enable additional finance on chain.

You're starting to see Robert Leshner, who launched his company Superstate, which we can talk a bit more about.

We're seeing some uptick in some of the DeFi protocols that have launched around the real world asset space, such as Ando and others that have upticked in volume, including MakerDAO.

And it seems like all the signals to me is pointing up.

What's the regulatory framework look like?

And so those are the things that I'm thinking about as we talk about RWAs.

I mean, to me, I'll be quite frank, doing research around real-world assets and all of that was Very boring.

By definition, it's a boring asset class.

But you know what that implies about you, Imran?

But, yeah, you know, like, I guess when you when you talk about friend tech, or I don't know, yoloing into Harry Potter, Obama, Sonic, and others, you know, there's certain types of like synopsis that go off in my brain that gets me excited.

But then when you talk about yoloing into treasury bills, I don't know, corporate stocks or corporate bonds or municipal bonds, I mean, I start yawning.

So I did a lot of research and I share your feeling, but the research was also pretty illuminating.

So obviously a few months ago we talked about RWAs and We said that our view actually evolved over time.

And what really triggered that evolution, so previously we were actually fairly bearish, but what triggered a change of mind was a few months ago when we saw Maker and the collateral that underlies Dai growing at an extremely rapid pace.

So to give you some data around December and January, December 2022 and January 2023, the dollar amount of RWAs that is in Maker, that's that backside of the stablecoin, has grown from basically 0 to 3000000000 dollars.

And then at the same time, we've seen protocols like Ondo that you mentioned and others that have grown their TVL to over $100 million very quickly.

And so these data points, we just cannot ignore them.

And on top of that, there is an elephant in the room, which is stablecoins.

Obviously, stablecoins are an RWA because it's tokenized US dollar, right?

And so Peter Johnson from BH Digital, he published a research paper on stablecoins a few months ago.

And there are some really interesting findings.

For example, in 2022, Stablecoin settled over $11 trillion on-chain.

Dwarfing the volumes processed by PayPal, which is $1.4 trillion, almost surpassing the payment volume of Visa, which is $11 trillion, and reaching 14% of the volume settled by ACH and 1% of the volume settled by Fedwire.

It is remarkable that in just a few years, a new global money movement rail can be compared to some of the world's largest and most important payment system.

And I'll also quote a few very interesting anecdotes from anecdotal data points from that report.

And that might really surprise our audience, just for fun.

Now, given what I just said, the audience could argue that, well, you know, probably much of the $11 trillion that's settled on-chain is for speculative reasons.

They're like, I don't know, like people settling stablecoins on a centralized exchange and then trading and stuff like that, and then participating in yields and stuff like that.

Sure, you can argue that, and it's probably true, but here's another really interesting data point.

Stablecoin usage has decoupled from crypto exchange volumes, indicating that significant stablecoin transaction volumes may be driven by non-trading and speculative activity.

Since December 2021, centralized exchange volumes are down 64% and decentralized exchange volumes are down 60%.

During the same period, stablecoin volumes are only down 11% and weekly active stablecoin addresses and transactions are up 25%.

And I'm going to share some more interesting data points just for fun.

The majority of stablecoin activity uses Tether.

Tether represents 69% of stablecoin supply and accounting for 80% of weekly active addresses.

Most people expect USDC to be the dominant player, but it is actually tethered today.

And a lot of that has had to do with the banking crisis earlier this year in April and USDC de-pegged from that.

Another really interesting data point, Most stablecoin activity occurs on the Tron and BSC blockchains.

Year to date, the Tron and BSC blockchains collectively account for 77% of weekly active addresses, 75% of transactions, and 41% of volumes.

No, okay, so there's arguments and counter arguments or data points against and for.

So the argument against Tron is, okay, maybe most of that volume is just Justin's own wallet, like just creating fake transactions.

I have no idea if that's true or not, but people have said that.

The counterpoint is, we know for a fact, from talking to Felipe, who's building Kravata, who's part of our program.

Kravata, by the way, is a fiat on-off ramp for Latin America.

And he told us that Tron USDT is by far the number 1 crypto payment that is used in Latin America.

So the way people do, the way people transact with each other is people go to like Binance peer-to-peer and then they initiate a transaction person on Binance peer-to-peer and then they meet each other in person to give each other Tron USDT and also fiat back.

I mean, obviously we'll have to do more research on this, but how did Tron get a foothold into that market and other markets as well?

It's just something that I'd love to do more research on and get insights on.

And for those who are listening that are building any sort of crypto payment startups, talk to us.

And I think that, you know, obviously in the past 5 to 10 years, there have been many attempts at crypto payments businesses and they all failed.

There is a historical reason for that, I think.

So like, for example, many years ago, you invested in a Latin American remittance and payment.

1 is, 5 years ago, Bitcoin was the only liquid settlement layer.

And Bitcoin is not really a good settlement layer for 2 reasons.

1 is the price is very volatile and 2, the block time is very long.

And the second reason is, well, obviously the stable coins have really taken off.

So today there are enough wallets and enough on-chain wealth that is stored in stablecoins.

And now we really have a critical mass of users that can pay each other.

I'm going to throw a third reason too, which is the infrastructure that enables this to happen.

The startup that I invested in 5 years ago, back then there was a very different mindset where everything had to be built on Bitcoin.

Bitcoin was the de facto way to build their own.

It created a lot of mindshare because Bitcoin was kind of pretty dominant at that point.

Number 2 is like there wasn't like enough stablecoin activity, right?

To really deem any 1 stablecoin successful.

So the founder that I invested in also built their own type of stablecoin that's backed by BTC, right?

The number 3 is there was no on and off ramps in LATAM.

So they also had to build their own on and off ramp in LATAM.

And in LATAM there's, you know, 30 plus countries that all have different jurisdictions that have all different legal requirements around how on and off RAM should be processed.

Different banks, different banking systems.

We didn't have, you know, account abstracted wallets.

We didn't have on and off rams that were, that was directly integrated with wallets, et cetera, et cetera.

And I feel as if a lot, all of those have been validated now and there is a decent solution for it.

And that's 1 of the reasons why Kravata, who was a part of our last batch, is really solving that across the LATAM market.

That just goes to show the amount of demand for stablecoins.

So I think with all of that being solved, now we have a real world asset that is finding utility and they're commercializing that utility through products and startups, which is what some of these startups that we're talking to are doing.

There's a broader, very important point about what you just said, which is timing matters.

In my over 10 years of observing crypto products and startup ideas, I don't think I've seen actually bad ideas.

But most ideas that failed actually were just too early.

But another really good example is basically the rest of the RWS, all the real world assets.

Because if you think about it, okay, we can all be really bullish on RWAs.

But if you really think about it, every asset that you see in front of you, including this computer that you're watching this podcast from, it can be tokenized, of course.

But does it actually make sense to tokenize this computer today?

Maybe at some point, yes, but today, of course not.

So there is a path dependency and there's a thing about timing, which is why stablecoins has worked really well so far.

And the next obvious 1 that has worked is on-chain treasuries, which you mentioned, T-bills, basically, US T-bills, which you mentioned that Undone and others have gotten pretty good traction.

And then the next obvious question is, what are some of the other asset classes for which it makes sense to tokenize today?

And in order to answer this question, we need to critically ask ourselves, where does the demand come from?

Because demand, I think, is actually the number 1 problem, the number 1 hurdle.

The other hurdle is the legal, the custodian, all that stuff, the actual solution, how do you solve this problem?

But before that can even be thought about, you need to think about the demand.

If we tokenize real estate, who buys that?

By the way, here's another really interesting anecdote, which is David.

He built a tokenized real estate startup back in 2017.

But their first idea was tokenized real estate and it didn't work out.

And I asked David, why do you think that didn't work?

I think he said something to the effect of, if you tokenize individual properties, there's just no liquidity.

People don't want to have exposure to individual properties.

Because if you want exposure to individual properties, you can just buy stuff on.

You can just buy a property on Zillow or whatever, just find a real estate agent and buy from them.

But when you're someone who's on chain, you have some money and you want to diversify that money into, you want to buy something with the money.

What you want is not exposure to a single property.

What you want maybe is exposure to a broad group of real estates.

real estate in New York, real estate in Chicago, and then you can long in New York and short Chicago and so on and so forth.

So, point being, we need to ask ourselves, is the timing right for a given asset class?

Well, I will argue that I think the timing is right to tokenize treasury bills.

And it might be the right narrative or tailwind that RWAs need outside of stablecoins to grow the asset class.

You could say that the macro backdrop, if you look at the macro backdrop, you know, Powell's increasing rates And this is fundamentally hurting all of the risk on assets like crypto, right?

In fact, it's crushing it compared to what's happening in any other market.

But you could also flip it and say that, well, because there's no yield, the decent yield on chain, the yield that's coming from treasury bills, if tokenized properly, could be a way to bring in more TVL into the broader crypto ecosystem.

And in fact, that could bring, be a tailwind for other startups to build around this ecosystem and start to grow from that perspective.

And I think that's why we're getting a lot of narrative.

The narrative buildup on real world assets is starting to increase.

So I mean, again, timing matters because if you started which is a T-bill tokenization platform 5 years ago, you wouldn't have worked because the federal fund rate was 0 5 years ago.

And if you can get 5% on-chain, whereas on Aave and Compound, you can only get, by the way, like 0, 1 or 2%, Of course, you're going to pick the T-bill, the on-chain T-bill, because it's higher rate, it's actually safer from a duration point of view, and you're not taking any smart contract risk.

And if you think about it, I also think the other reason for this is like, yeah, I mean, if you're just holding dollars right now, it's fine, but you're still like, there's an opportunity cost that you're losing by not doing T-bills.

And if there's $38 billion, I think I saw the number on DeFi Llama, $38 billion in TBL, let's say, I mean, that's $38 billion that's not earning a yield, right?

And so they're switching costs in getting that money out off ramp, and then being able to go to a bank or brokerage and buying that there's they're switching time costs.

There's a lot of issues with doing that there is no seamless process.

And there is a chance that you can there's security issues and vulnerabilities to by doing this, especially large sums of money.

So it actually really makes sense for some of that money to go into RWAs, which makes it easier from a switching cost perspective.

Well, actually, I'm just going to quote David again, because I've been talking to David a lot about this.

If I could summarize the thesis behind RWAs, basically, the question is, what would be the potential reasons for RWAs?

Number 1, 1 side of the coin is you have a lot of this on-chain non-KYC wealth that needs diversification.

So you and me and maybe some organizations, some DAOs, we have some money on-chain.

You know, we historically over the last 15 years, we went from BTC, then to ETH, then to stables, then to treasuries.

And then the natural next question is, what else can we diversify into?

So obviously you can have a bunch of other real world assets on chain that we can potentially diversify into.

So the need comes from on-chain treasury diversification.

And then the other side of the same coin is the RWA is basically a way for traditional assets to tap into cheaper liquidity sources.

What that means is, if you're a trapfire person or organization, you can't raise money in that world, well, why don't you just tap into the Degen liquidity on-chain?

Because that money is less informed and they wouldn't ape into anything.

So these are 2 coins, 2 sides of the same coin, because 1 side is supplied, the other side is the miss.

And they match perfectly with each other.

Is the timing right for a given asset class?

Ibrahim, I'm curious what you think, but let's go through a list of asset classes and then we can share our thoughts.

I don't know, to be honest, because the US treasuries is already 5%.

With commercial like bonds, like corporate bonds, maybe you can yield a little bit more than that by taking on extra risk.

So corporate bonds offers you a combination of 2 risks.

The first risk is the federal fund rate plus some default risk.

So maybe yeah, maybe Maybe some people will want it.

I've seen a pool with ABS asset-backed securities, which is really D-Gen.

I don't know how they did it, but they tokenized, I think it was on Centrifuge.

And it's, by the way, I think, I'm not 100% sure, but that vault is used by Maker.

emerging markets, emerging markets at 10%, structured credit, 4%, real estate around 8%, commercial real estate.

So there's some like interesting yield opportunities, but I mean, obviously they all come with their own risk parameters.

But that increases the yield opportunity, because if you think about what drove DeFi summer was primarily yield, wasn't it?

People would just compare different yield opportunities.

10,000, a hundred thousand percent yield versus a hundred percent yield.

Cause we went through a bunch of boring ones, like the Trap-Eye Boomer stuff.

Pokémon cards and Magic the Gathering cards, and Michael Jordan cards.

Obviously, we chatted offline about this, but I'm quite bullish on at least cards because I'm a pretty big collector of Jordan.

And some of the biggest issues that I have with holding cards at home is the fact that they could damage, they can get damaged by humidity, heat, etc.

And it could get stolen and it could get damaged too.

Like if you have pets or kids, you have to store it somewhere safe.

And so there's a lot of risk involved in storing this at home.

And so having a custodian that could store it in a very cost-effective way that can also keep the quality high, like temperature controlled rooms, secured within some sort of like vault, and having some sort of digital representation on the internet like an NFT that is backed by this company like Brinks could give me the optionality to sell it if I want to sell it quickly or borrow against it if I want to borrow against it or do other things like showing it off.

So I do think there is some value in like holding like very high valued collectibles like Jordan.

You're a poker, weren't you a Magic the Gathering?

Like weren't you involved in trading those cards?

I mean, let the community know, let the people know.

When I was in high school, I was extremely poor.

All my friends played Magic the Gathering with real cards, real Magic the Gathering cards.

I wanted to play with them, but I didn't have the money to buy the real cards.

So you did what Paolo would do at this point, right?

So yes, the thing with all these, like, you know, Magic the Gathering or Pokemon or Michael Jordan is it taps into your childhood, your nostalgia.

By the way, have you seen how much Magic the Gathering cards have appreciated in the last 20, 30 years?

When I was in high school, a Black Lotus, for those who are into Magic the Gathering, Black Lotus is the most expensive card in Magic the Gatherer.

I don't know if it's still the case today, but it was $700 20 years ago.

I thought about this for a long time, And I finally realized why that has appreciated so much, which is that when we were young, we were all poor.

But as all of us, that generation, like millennials or whatever, are in their 30s or 40s or whatever, they now have some wealth and they want to go back to their childhood and buy that stuff.

own a tokenized magic that got black lotus.

I mean, I collected Pokemon cards and Charizard was the 1 I always wanted.

So yeah, I think just to go back to nostalgia, I would definitely buy 1 of those.

I would buy Charizard, tokenized Charizard.

Oh, by the way, Magic Eden, they announced this product like last week or something, where people can buy pretty rare Pokemon cards.

On a side note, the biggest bearish person that I know about crypto is Nikita bear, right?

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Why Does Crypto Need Real World Assets to Grow?