Politicians from all sides in the North and Midlands have called the Prime Minister's cancellation of the HS2 rail link to Manchester a catastrophe.

Transport Secretary Mark Harper is promising to invest the £36 billion saved in to travel projects across the country.

Mark says the legal decision to cancel part of HS2 took place after Susanna questioned the Prime Minister on Tuesday, despite the announcement video being filmed at 10 Downing St before the PM attended the Tory Party Conference. 

Broadcast on 05/10/23

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So politicians from all sides in the North and Midlands have called the Prime Minister's cancellation of the HS2 rail link to Manchester a catastrophe and betrayal.

But the Transport Secretary, Mark Harper, is promising to invest the £36 billion he's saved into travel projects across the country.

So, £36 billion into improving transport networks in the areas which have been affected by this being cancelled.

How can anyone believe that will happen when you were saying that about delivering HS2?

Well look, the first thing is some of the criticism we've had this week that you just referred to, I think it's from people who wrote their script before they heard the other half of the announcement, which is the reinvesting of the savings.

So look, I accept people won't all agree with the decision that we set out this week about cancelling the second phase of HS2, but the facts have changed, The costs of the project have escalated, and the benefits of it have reduced, given the change in travel behavior and business travel post-pandemic.

And when the facts change, you need to make a different decision and be brave enough to do that.

But What we also said was that every single penny of the savings would be reinvested in transport infrastructure and in the regions of the country which would have benefited.

So in the north of England, nearly £20 billion of that 36 is going to be invested in the north of England in transport projects that I think actually are closer to what people in the north want.

So east-west connections across the north of England, some money going into road infrastructure, obviously the most common way for people to get about, and also some money to support bus services with our £2 bus fare.

Buses of course are twice as popular a public transport method as trains.

So I think there's a really strong package and it fits the current position, the facts have changed.

as to why you've made the decision, what you're doing.

The question was, how can the people there, the people of this country, believe that you will deliver on that when you didn't deliver on HS2 in any way, either on budget or on the actual delivery of it in itself?

Well I think people have to listen to the argument we've made and decide whether they think it's credible.

Look, so HS2, Phase 1, London-Euston to Birmingham, we're getting on and delivering that, okay.

So we've said we'll do that, that's already happening, the construction's well underway, spades are in the ground as we say and all sorts of other construction equipment as well and we're getting on and delivering that.

That will free up, deliver a big increase in capacity.

Those trains will still get through to Manchester where I'm speaking to you from but on the West Coast mainline.

But the facts have changed And I think because we've been honest about it, we've explained to people why we've changed that decision.

But we've also said to people that we're going to reinvest all of that money in well-understood projects, by the way.

So a lot of these projects are ones where work's been done on them, but we hadn't been able to fund them because of the money that was being spent on HS2, we can get on with it.

Some of those mayors you talked about in the north of England and in the West Midlands, the Metro mayors, they are going to get quite a significant increase in their own budgets that they can spend on the priorities that they judge, the people they represent think are important.

There is a lot of extra local decision-making that will take place as a result of the decision.

Can we talk about when the decision was made?

Your boss was chatting to our colleague Susannah Reid on Tuesday morning.

I just want to play you the sot, because she put to the Prime Minister exactly that question about HS2.

I'm not going to comment into all that speculation.

I'm not going to comment on that speculation.

As I did with net 0, I take the time to get a decision right for the country.

I approach all these problems in the same way.

What we now know is the decision had been made before that.

When it was put out that the decision was being made to scrap, it was a pre-recorded message that was recorded at number 10, It was recorded at Downing Street.

There is a real issue with trust between politicians and the general public.

1 of the issues we have is trying to convince the public, the people that you want to vote for you, that actually what you are saying is true and it is honourable as well.

Clearly, Rishi Sunak, to Susanna's face, misled her.

Let me give you a very straight answer then so I can be very clear.

We have been working on this for a long time.

I took that decision after that interview.

Let me finish the answer and come back on me.

I took the decision legally, I am the 1 that has to legally take this decision on Tuesday and then the decision was agreed by the Cabinet as would be proper for a decision of this magnitude on Wednesday morning and then the Prime Minister announced it shortly after that in his conference speech.

That is a clear question from you, a perfectly fair question and a very straightforward answer.

That piece to camera that he pre-recorded that went out on Wednesday, that was clearly recorded at number 10 Downing Street.

He wasn't at number 10 on Wednesday morning.

That had been recorded before you made that decision?

Had he recorded a number of messages then?

Had he recorded 1 where he said we are going to do it and then he recorded 1

No, but we published yesterday to Parliament a command paper that set out a lot of the detail behind this decision.

We obviously worked on that in advance of me taking the decision.

You said you'd give us a chance to come back.

Rishi Sunak said he would only make the decision when he'd had time to work through it.

About 27 hours later he found the time to work through it.

After all the weeks and months and all of that time he could have done it before and we now find out he'd already recorded 1 message which was saying that he was scrapping it.

So regardless of whether you are legally the person that makes the decision and then there's a procedure where it goes to the Prime Minister, you aren't telling me that in your heart you didn't know that this was going to be the outcome.

No, look, we've been working on this for a considerable period of time, right?

You don't take big decisions like this in 5 minutes, right?

But we've been working on it, but the decision was taken this week

You've been working on it for a long time.

So something happened in 27 hours that made you come to that decision.

You know that you knew the decision you were going to take.

You were just waiting for the right moment, surely.

Otherwise, something dramatic would have happened in 27 hours that hadn't happened all the previous weeks.

Look, I'm being quite straightforward about it.

We've been working on the detail of this.

I took the decision this week and it was agreed by the cabinet on Wednesday and then the Prime Minister set it out.

So when he had the interview earlier in the week he was being completely straightforward and completely honest with people as he always is.

He's a man of honesty and integrity which is why I backed him in the leadership election last year.

His words were, I will make the decision when I have had time to work through it.

How can people think that happened in that time?

Can you understand people's frustration at home today?

What you are trying to say is he made the decision on Wednesday morning.

But we know that he pre-recorded that message from number 10.

So he couldn't have made it, it had been made already.

This trust issue that the general public have with politicians is not going away.

When we see this and we see you coming out trying to justify decision and not holding your hands up and saying look we had to pre-record something because it had to be ready to go, but actually it went on Wednesday.

Well, look, I don't think there's any problem with saying you prepare for things.

As I said, we published a document to Parliament yesterday.

We didn't just knock it together in 5 minutes, we have been working on the documents and the preparation for a decision, but the decision was taken on Tuesday by me and then agreed by the Cabinet on Wednesday.

That is not what the Prime Minister said.

He did not say, look, I will make the announcement when it's right to, when I've discussed it.

He said, I will make the announcement when I've gone through it properly and I've come to a decision.

Now, when you get into words and belief and honesty, these details matter, don't they?

Because whether you believe it's right to scrap it or not, it's a big impact on a lot of people's lives, that decision.

So he said to us, live on the programme, I will make the decision when I've been through it properly and I know what the decision is going to be.

And you're saying, actually, that you'd done the planning, but there was a formality where you had to make the decision and then they did.

You can understand why It sounds like politicians twisting things around to people.

Well, look, I think I've been very clear with my answer and very straightforward about it.

And I'm very happy, people who are listening to this can just listen to my answer and think...

I've been very straightforward about it and I'm happy for them to judge on what I've said.

I've just been very clear and straightforward with you, told you what happened, and I'm very happy for people to make a judgment about that.

Now, you, in your speech, are very confident that it's the right decision to go ahead.

You also made some comments about 15-minute sitters, this idea of having amenities within a 15-minute walk.

Shall we just have a quick listen to what you said about that?

minutes, amenities within 15 minutes of a walk?

And in What world or what evidence do you have that councils are telling people where they can and can't shop?

Well I was very careful about what I said.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with having amenities close to where you live.

I actually said in my speech quite the opposite.

I said having amenities close to where you live is a good idea and that's just sensible town planning.

I said councils that say that you can only drive your car for a certain period of time a year and control when and where you go and use CCTV to enforce it is a very bad idea and it is a bad idea.

What evidence is there that councils are preventing people shopping in certain places?

Right well I'll give you a very specific example if you go and have a look on Oxfordshire County Council's website you'll see they've got a very specific plan on traffic filters where they want on certain roads to control whether you can drive on those roads a certain number of times a year and they're talking about issuing permits to people and if you choose to drive your car on that particular route more times than that they'll use CCTV cameras to find you.

That's looking at how you transport yourself to that shop and it might be to do with traffic or a whole range of reasons.

You're suggesting that councils are preventing people from choosing where they shop and you're introducing the word sinister

Well, I think councils telling people that they can't get in the car and go to where they want to go to And only do that a certain number of times a year.

If they choose to do that, they will get fined.

I think that is sinister and I don't think it is supported by the British public and I don't think it is a very good idea.

I was very clear about that in my speech.

There are specific examples of it happening in Britain and I said it's a terrible idea and I think we should stop it and we're going to look at what measures we can to stop it.

Having Aminis is close to where you live, perfectly sensible idea, traditional town planning, nothing wrong with it at all, which is exactly what I said in my speech.

Okay Mr Harper, we're going to have to leave it there.


Speaker 0: So politicians from all sides in the North and Midlands have called the Prime Minister's cancellation of the HS2 rail link to Manchester a catastrophe and betrayal.

Speaker 1: But the Transport Secretary, Mark Harper, is promising to invest the £36 billion he's saved into travel projects across the country. And he joins us now. Good to speak to you this morning.

Speaker 2: Good morning.

Speaker 1: So, £36 billion into improving transport networks in the areas which have been affected by this being cancelled. How can anyone believe that will happen when you were saying that about delivering HS2?

Speaker 3: Well look, the first thing is some of the criticism we've had this week that you just referred to, I think it's from people who wrote their script before they heard the other half of the announcement, which is the reinvesting of the savings. So look, I accept people won't all agree with the decision that we set out this week about cancelling the second phase of HS2, but the facts have changed, The costs of the project have escalated, and the benefits of it have reduced, given the change in travel behavior and business travel post-pandemic. And when the facts change, you need to make a different decision and be brave enough to do that. But What we also said was that every single penny of the savings would be reinvested in transport infrastructure and in the regions of the country which would have benefited. So in the north of England, nearly £20 billion of that 36 is going to be invested in the north of England in transport projects that I think actually are closer to what people in the north want.

So east-west connections across the north of England, some money going into road infrastructure, obviously the most common way for people to get about, and also some money to support bus services with our £2 bus fare. Buses of course are twice as popular a public transport method as trains. So I think there's a really strong package and it fits the current position, the facts have changed. So that's why we've made that decision. Very clear answer

Speaker 1: as to why you've made the decision, what you're doing. But it wasn't the question, was it? The question was, how can the people there, the people of this country, believe that you will deliver on that when you didn't deliver on HS2 in any way, either on budget or on the actual delivery of it in itself?

Speaker 3: Well I think people have to listen to the argument we've made and decide whether they think it's credible. Look, so HS2, Phase 1, London-Euston to Birmingham, we're getting on and delivering that, okay. So we've said we'll do that, that's already happening, the construction's well underway, spades are in the ground as we say and all sorts of other construction equipment as well and we're getting on and delivering that. That will free up, deliver a big increase in capacity. Those trains will still get through to Manchester where I'm speaking to you from but on the West Coast mainline.

But the facts have changed And I think because we've been honest about it, we've explained to people why we've changed that decision. But we've also said to people that we're going to reinvest all of that money in well-understood projects, by the way. So a lot of these projects are ones where work's been done on them, but we hadn't been able to fund them because of the money that was being spent on HS2, we can get on with it. Some of those mayors you talked about in the north of England and in the West Midlands, the Metro mayors, they are going to get quite a significant increase in their own budgets that they can spend on the priorities that they judge, the people they represent think are important. There is a lot of extra local decision-making that will take place as a result of the decision.

That will be welcomed.

Speaker 4: Can we talk about when the decision was made? Your boss was chatting to our colleague Susannah Reid on Tuesday morning. I just want to play you the sot, because she put to the Prime Minister exactly that question about HS2.

Speaker 1: Are you cancelling HS2?

Speaker 2: I'm not going to comment into all that speculation.

Speaker 1: Was that a no, I'm not cancelling?

Speaker 2: I'm not going to comment on that speculation. They are

Speaker 1: straight talkers in Manchester.

Speaker 2: As I did with net 0, I take the time to get a decision right for the country. I approach all these problems in the same way. I will make the right long-term

Speaker 1: decision for the country. When will you make it?

Speaker 2: When we have gone through it properly.

Speaker 4: What we now know is the decision had been made before that. When it was put out that the decision was being made to scrap, it was a pre-recorded message that was recorded at number 10, It was recorded at Downing Street. There is a real issue with trust between politicians and the general public. I think the last survey said that

Speaker 0: 68%

Speaker 4: of people believe politicians lie. 1 of the issues we have is trying to convince the public, the people that you want to vote for you, that actually what you are saying is true and it is honourable as well. Clearly, Rishi Sunak, to Susanna's face, misled her.

Speaker 3: No, that is not true. Let me give you a very straight answer then so I can be very clear. We have been working on this for a long time. You would expect this is a big decision. The decision is my legal responsibility.

I took that decision after that interview. It was later in the day on

Speaker 4: Tuesday. When was that message recorded?

Speaker 1: Hang on. I have to

Speaker 3: pick him up. Let me finish the answer and come back on me. I took the decision legally, I am the 1 that has to legally take this decision on Tuesday and then the decision was agreed by the Cabinet as would be proper for a decision of this magnitude on Wednesday morning and then the Prime Minister announced it shortly after that in his conference speech. That is a clear question from you, a perfectly fair question and a very straightforward answer.

Speaker 4: That piece to camera that he pre-recorded that went out on Wednesday, that was clearly recorded at number 10 Downing Street. He wasn't at number 10 on Wednesday morning. That had been recorded before you made that decision?

Speaker 3: We obviously worked on stuff in advance.

Speaker 4: Had he recorded a number of messages then? Had he recorded 1 where he said we are going to do it and then he recorded 1

Speaker 2: where He said we are going to do it and

Speaker 4: then he said we are going to scrap it.

Speaker 3: No, but we published yesterday to Parliament a command paper that set out a lot of the detail behind this decision. We obviously worked on that in advance of me taking the decision. We didn't just do it all in Manchester.

Speaker 1: Just 1 second before your decision.

Speaker 3: You said you'd

Speaker 1: give us a chance to come back. Of course, absolutely. You said you'd give us a chance to come back. Rishi Sunak said he would only make the decision when he'd had time to work through it. About 27 hours later he found the time to work through it.

After all the weeks and months and all of that time he could have done it before and we now find out he'd already recorded 1 message which was saying that he was scrapping it. So regardless of whether you are legally the person that makes the decision and then there's a procedure where it goes to the Prime Minister, you aren't telling me that in your heart you didn't know that this was going to be the outcome.

Speaker 3: No, look, we've been working on this for a considerable period of time, right? You don't take big decisions like this in 5 minutes, right? But we've been working on it, but the decision was taken this week

Speaker 1: and agreed by the cabinet. You've been working on it for a long time. So something happened in 27 hours that made you come to that decision. You know that's not the case. You know that you knew the decision you were going to take.

You were just waiting for the right moment, surely. Otherwise, something dramatic would have happened in 27 hours that hadn't happened all the previous weeks.

Speaker 3: Look, I'm being quite straightforward about it. We've been working on the detail of this. I took the decision this week and it was agreed by the cabinet on Wednesday and then the Prime Minister set it out. So when he had the interview earlier in the week he was being completely straightforward and completely honest with people as he always is. He's a man of honesty and integrity which is why I backed him in the leadership election last year.

Speaker 1: His words were, I will make the decision when I have had time to work through it. How can people think that happened in that time? How can people trust that?

Speaker 4: Can you understand people's frustration at home today? What you are trying to say is he made the decision on Wednesday morning. But we know that he pre-recorded that message from number 10. So he couldn't have made it, it had been made already. This trust issue that the general public have with politicians is not going away.

When we see this and we see you coming out trying to justify decision and not holding your hands up and saying look we had to pre-record something because it had to be ready to go, but actually it went on Wednesday. People just don't believe you.

Speaker 3: Well, look, I don't think there's any problem with saying you prepare for things. As I said, we published a document to Parliament yesterday. We didn't just knock it together in 5 minutes, we have been working on the documents and the preparation for a decision, but the decision was taken on Tuesday by me and then agreed by the Cabinet on Wednesday.

Speaker 1: That is not what the Prime Minister said. He did not say, look, I will make the announcement when it's right to, when I've discussed it. He said, I will make the announcement when I've gone through it properly and I've come to a decision. Now, when you get into words and belief and honesty, these details matter, don't they? Because whether you believe it's right to scrap it or not, it's a big impact on a lot of people's lives, that decision.

So he said to us, live on the programme, I will make the decision when I've been through it properly and I know what the decision is going to be. And you're saying, actually, that you'd done the planning, but there was a formality where you had to make the decision and then they did. You can understand why It sounds like politicians twisting things around to people.

Speaker 3: Well, look, I think I've been very clear with my answer and very straightforward about it. And I'm very happy, people who are listening to this can just listen to my answer and think... I've been very straightforward about it and I'm happy for them to judge on what I've said. I've just been very clear and straightforward with you, told you what happened, and I'm very happy for people to make a judgment about that.

Speaker 1: Very good. Shall we talk about what you said? Now, you, in your speech, are very confident that it's the right decision to go ahead. You also made some comments about 15-minute sitters, this idea of having amenities within a 15-minute walk. Shall we just have a quick listen to what you said about that?

Speaker 3: Please do.

Speaker 1: Sinister? Why is it sinister to have

Speaker 0: 15

Speaker 1: minutes, amenities within 15 minutes of a walk? And in What world or what evidence do you have that councils are telling people where they can and can't shop?

Speaker 3: Well I was very careful about what I said. I didn't say there was anything wrong with having amenities close to where you live. I actually said in my speech quite the opposite. I said having amenities close to where you live is a good idea and that's just sensible town planning. That's not what I was criticising.

I said councils that say that you can only drive your car for a certain period of time a year and control when and where you go and use CCTV to enforce it is a very bad idea and it is a bad idea.

Speaker 1: What evidence is there that councils are preventing people shopping in certain places? What's the evidence?

Speaker 3: Right well I'll give you a very specific example if you go and have a look on Oxfordshire County Council's website you'll see they've got a very specific plan on traffic filters where they want on certain roads to control whether you can drive on those roads a certain number of times a year and they're talking about issuing permits to people and if you choose to drive your car on that particular route more times than that they'll use CCTV cameras to find you.

Speaker 1: That's looking at how you transport yourself to that shop and it might be to do with traffic or a whole range of reasons. You're suggesting that councils are preventing people from choosing where they shop and you're introducing the word sinister

Speaker 3: Well, I think councils telling people that they can't get in the car and go to where they want to go to And only do that a certain number of times a year. If they choose to do that, they will get fined. I think that is sinister and I don't think it is supported by the British public and I don't think it is a very good idea. That is all I was talking about. I was very clear about that in my speech.

There are specific examples of it happening in Britain and I said it's a terrible idea and I think we should stop it and we're going to look at what measures we can to stop it. Having Aminis is close to where you live, perfectly sensible idea, traditional town planning, nothing wrong with it at all, which is exactly what I said in my speech.

Speaker 4: Okay Mr Harper, we're going to have to leave it there.

Speaker 3: Great, thank you.

Speaker 4: Apologies, are out of time. Thank you.

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