On Thursday, Sculley gave perhaps his fullest public account ever of the circumstances surrounding Apple's firing of Steve Jobs.

Subscribe to FORBES: https://www.youtube.com/user/Forbes?sub_confirmation=1
 
Stay Connected
Forbes on Facebook: http://fb.com/forbes
Forbes Video on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/forbes
Forbes Video on Instagram: http://instagram.com/forbes
More From Forbes:  http://forbes.com
 
Forbes covers the intersection of entrepreneurship, wealth, technology, business and lifestyle with a focus on people and success.

Those are really great questions and they're ones that I've thought about a lot.

First of all, it's always useful to have context.

I was really recruited to be Steve's partner.

I didn't know anything about building computers.

Steve didn't, at that age, know much about running companies.

Apple had failed with Lisa, had failed with the Apple 3.

The company needed cash flow in order to finance the development of the Macintosh, which wasn't expected to be profitable for several years, even after it was launched.

I came A year before it was ready for the market.

And Steve focused on creating what Apple was going to be in the future.

My job was turn the Apple II around and get it generating as much cash as possible, which we did very successfully.

The thing that led to the huge disagreement, because I'm always surprised that people never ask the question, how could 2 individuals like Steve Jobs and I, who were supposedly inseparable, we were together all the time, we were great personal friends, How could we end up in 1 of these amazing celebrated clashes?

I came from a world of public company accountability to a board, to shareholders.

And when the Macintosh office, which was the next version of the Mac that was introduced in 1985, failed, Steve went into a deep depression over it.

Because this was really important to him and it really wasn't his fault.

The Moore's Law is a very predictable, consistent law that says that every roughly 12 to 18 months the number of transistors doubles and therefore the performance processing power of a computer doubles.

And the reality was that the Macintosh office just was not powerful enough.

It had to do with the stage of where microprocessor technology was.

It was being called a toy, it was being ridiculed in the market.

We just introduced laser printing to print beautiful fonts.

And so Steve came to me and he said, I want to drop the price of the Macintosh and I want to move the advertising, shift a large portion of it away from the Apple II over to the Mac.

And I said, Steve, it's not going to make any difference.

The reason the MAC is not selling has nothing to do with the price or with the advertising.

If you do that, we risk throwing the company into a loss.

And so I said, well, I'm going to go to the board.

And he said, I don't believe you'll do it.

And so we went to the board of directors.

And the board met with us each individually.

And then they assigned the vice chairman, third co-founder of Apple, Mike Markkula, to go and study the question and talk to various executives and engineers, and then come back, not to me, not to Steve, but come back to the board and give his report.

And Mike Markla did that and about 7 or 8 days later, he came back to the board.

And so the board then brought Steve and me together and they said, Steve, we want you to step down from running the Macintosh division, not get fired.

You're still chairman, you're still the largest shareholder, but not get fired.

Now, let's put it in hindsight, the other part of your question, what would have happened if we hadn't had that showdown?

What I didn't appreciate at the time, I think I do now, is how emotional, how deeply set the values are of a founder who was on pursuit of a noble cause and absolutely believes, passionately believes, that they're going to change the world.

And here is this professional executive coming in and thinking about, well, how are the shareholders going to react, how are the analysts going to react, what do we do as a public corporation.

And I did not have the breadth of experience at that time to really appreciate just how different leadership is when you are shaping an industry as Bill Gates did or Steve Jobs did versus when you are a competitor in an industry in a public company where you don't make mistakes because if you lose, you're out.

So coming from a completely different world that I now understand, but I didn't at the time, I really blamed the board Because I think the board understood Apple before I came.

They knew what my experience was and what it wasn't.

And I really believe there could have been a solution to keep Steve and me working together, because we were very good friends up until that point.

And I had no interest to take over his company.

In fact, I said to Steve, I said, hey, Steve, this is your company, it's not mine.

But I'm not going to stand here as a public company CEO and have us make decisions like that without having the board involved.

So my sense is that there could have been a different outcome.

I feel most badly, though, was after 10 years I was at the company.

And I wanted to go back to New York where I was from and why I didn't go to Steve Jobs and say, Steve, let's figure out how you can come back and lead your company.

I can't figure out why I didn't have the wisdom to do that, but I didn't.

And as life has it, shortly after that, I was fired because I refused to license the Macintosh technologies.

I thought it would drive Apple towards bankruptcy.

And so I had the experience of learning about entrepreneurialism, about visionary founders, and the great talents that Steve had, but he was not a great executive back in those early days.

The great Steve Jobs that we know today is maybe the world's, you know, greatest CEO of our era.

He learned a lot in those years in the wilderness at Next and building Pixar into a great company and when he came back to Apple he was obviously a very seasoned, much more experienced executive.

And I think that actually in the last 20 years, Ronnie said I'm a professional executive.

Actually Ronnie, for 20 years I haven't been a professional executive.

I try to stay off the radar screen, but I actually own a number of companies.

I don't run any of them anymore, but I mentor talented CEOs.

And I think that those lessons that I got along the way, going back to your questions, are the ones that have shaped my life for the last 20 years That's a great question and a great response you


Speaker 0: Those are really great questions and they're ones that I've thought about a lot. First of all, it's always useful to have context. I was hired as CEO, but

Speaker 1: I was really recruited to be Steve's partner. I didn't know anything about building computers. Steve didn't, at that age, know much about running companies. Apple had failed with Lisa, had failed with the Apple 3. The Apple 2 was near end of life.

The company needed cash flow in order to finance the development of the Macintosh, which wasn't expected to be profitable for several years, even after it was launched. I came A year before it was ready for the market. And Steve focused on creating what Apple was going to be in the future. My job was turn the Apple II around and get it generating as much cash as possible, which we did very successfully. The thing that led to the huge disagreement, because I'm always surprised that people never ask the question, how could 2 individuals like Steve Jobs and I, who were supposedly inseparable, we were together all the time, we were great personal friends, How could we end up in 1 of these amazing celebrated clashes?

And it was pretty simple. I came from a world of public company accountability to a board, to shareholders. And when the Macintosh office, which was the next version of the Mac that was introduced in 1985, failed, Steve went into a deep depression over it. Because this was really important to him and it really wasn't his fault. It was all about Moore's Law.

The Moore's Law is a very predictable, consistent law that says that every roughly 12 to 18 months the number of transistors doubles and therefore the performance processing power of a computer doubles. And the reality was that the Macintosh office just was not powerful enough. It had nothing to do with Apple. It had to do with the stage of where microprocessor technology was. It just couldn't do very much.

It was being called a toy, it was being ridiculed in the market. We just introduced laser printing to print beautiful fonts. It was slow and Steve was discouraged. And so Steve came to me and he said, I want to drop the price of the Macintosh and I want to move the advertising, shift a large portion of it away from the Apple II over to the Mac. And I said, Steve, it's not going to make any difference.

The reason the MAC is not selling has nothing to do with the price or with the advertising. If you do that, we risk throwing the company into a loss. And he just totally disagreed with me. And so I said, well, I'm going to go to the board. And he said, I don't believe you'll do it.

I said, watch me. And so we went to the board of directors. And we each presented our case. And the board met with us each individually. And then they assigned the vice chairman, third co-founder of Apple, Mike Markkula, to go and study the question and talk to various executives and engineers, and then come back, not to me, not to Steve, but come back to the board and give his report.

And Mike Markla did that and about 7 or 8 days later, he came back to the board. He said, I agree with John. I don't agree with Steve. And so the board then brought Steve and me together and they said, Steve, we want you to step down from running the Macintosh division, not get fired. You're still chairman, you're still the largest shareholder, but not get fired.

Now, let's put it in hindsight, the other part of your question, what would have happened if we hadn't had that showdown? What I didn't appreciate at the time, I think I do now, is how emotional, how deeply set the values are of a founder who was on pursuit of a noble cause and absolutely believes, passionately believes, that they're going to change the world. And here is this professional executive coming in and thinking about, well, how are the shareholders going to react, how are the analysts going to react, what do we do as a public corporation. And I did not have the breadth of experience at that time to really appreciate just how different leadership is when you are shaping an industry as Bill Gates did or Steve Jobs did versus when you are a competitor in an industry in a public company where you don't make mistakes because if you lose, you're out. So coming from a completely different world that I now understand, but I didn't at the time, I really blamed the board Because I think the board understood Apple before I came.

They understood Steve. They knew what my experience was and what it wasn't. And I really believe there could have been a solution to keep Steve and me working together, because we were very good friends up until that point. And I had no interest to take over his company. In fact, I said to Steve, I said, hey, Steve, this is your company, it's not mine.

You can have it back. But I'm not going to stand here as a public company CEO and have us make decisions like that without having the board involved. Just not going to do it. So my sense is that there could have been a different outcome. I feel most badly, though, was after 10 years I was at the company.

And I wanted to go back to New York where I was from and why I didn't go to Steve Jobs and say, Steve, let's figure out how you can come back and lead your company. I didn't do that. It was a terrible mistake on my part. I can't figure out why I didn't have the wisdom to do that, but I didn't. And as life has it, shortly after that, I was fired because I refused to license the Macintosh technologies.

I thought it would drive Apple towards bankruptcy. And so I had the experience of learning about entrepreneurialism, about visionary founders, and the great talents that Steve had, but he was not a great executive back in those early days. The great Steve Jobs that we know today is maybe the world's, you know, greatest CEO of our era. He learned a lot in those years in the wilderness at Next and building Pixar into a great company and when he came back to Apple he was obviously a very seasoned, much more experienced executive. And I think that actually in the last 20 years, Ronnie said I'm a professional executive.

Actually Ronnie, for 20 years I haven't been a professional executive. I try to stay off the radar screen, but I actually own a number of companies. I'm an entrepreneur. I don't run any of them anymore, but I mentor talented CEOs. And I think that those lessons that I got along the way, going back to your questions, are the ones that have shaped my life for the last 20 years That's a great question and a great response you

See all Forbes transcripts on Youtube

John Sculley On How Steve Jobs Got Fired From Apple | Forbes