► Seb Audet is the CoFounder of Zapper.

In this episode, we discuss how can Zapper make the blockchain social. For years, Zapper has been a well known gateway to millions of users in DeFi and Web3. From DeFi Summer to now, Seb shares his experience and insights from the evolution of Zapper into a social web3 explorer, which allows users to follow the blockchain journey of other people in NFTs, DeFi and DAOs. While Seb sees the future of crypto in Web3 social networks, he explains his thesis for why we must first make the blockchain readable before we can ever build more social products in Web3.

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Timestamps

00:00 - Intro
05:29 - DeFi Summer memories
07:04 - Seb's background and origin of Zapper
13:10 - Zapper's mission as of 2023
15:47 - What's changed in DeFi/Web3?
21:22 - What's social in DeFi/Web3?
28:20 - Zapper's product suite
32:25 - Thoughts on Web3 messaging
37:12 - Leveraging Lens social graphs on Zapper
38:32 - What does Zapper data say about the bull cycle?
41:19 - Ways to use Zapper Activity Feed
42:46 - Why did Zapper retire Zaps
48:05 - Zapper Event Curation
53:09 - Ideas for incentivizing event curation
54:40 - Closing

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🔗 Guest Links 🔗

► Seb on Twitter: https://twitter.com/sebaudet26
► Zapper on Twitter: https://twitter.com/zapper_fi
► Try Zapper: https://zapper.xyz/

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🙏 The Edge Podcast is produced by 4RC Labs. If you're a DeFi/Web3 builder, contact our team at: https://fourthrevolution.capital/

All opinions expressed by hosts and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and not necessarily those of Fourth Revolution Capital. Podcast guests and 4RC may have positions in the assets or other matters discussed in this podcast. DeFi Dad is a former employee of Zapper and remains an advisor to Zapper. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Do your own research. This is not a recommendation or endorsement to buy any token(s) related to any platform(s) discussed.

You know, if the blockchain is a city, to me, the city right now is just very hard to see properly.

Like some people have really good goggles, they're able to see the fabric of the city, they see the buildings, the restaurants, the museum, the art galleries.

Most of the people coming in see absolutely nothing.

They'll see numbers, they'll see just complicated technology that they can't relate or understand.

To really be able to fully embrace the kind of superpowers a blockchain has, we need to be able to surface what it is properly.

To me, there's a big social aspect of that.

And that's where I kind of see Zapper in the future is like, if we make the blockchain readable to everyone, we're kind of showing that it's a city that people go to and do things.

And then on top of that, people can build these meaningful social connections.

But making the blockchain readable is what precedes any type of social product in Web3.

Hey everyone, Welcome to the Edge Podcast.

I'm DeFi Dad from Fourth Revolution Capital, and I'm here with my friend and co-host from 4RC Nomadic.

Today we're talking with the co-founder of Zapper, Seb Audit.

For years, Zapper has been a well-known gateway to DeFi and Web3.

Back in 2020, it originally launched as an all-in-one on-chain portfolio tracker, with Zaps for entering and exiting DeFi LPs and farms in just a few clicks.

Nowadays, Zapper is best described as a social web 3 explorer which allows users to follow the blockchain journey of other people in NFTs, DeFi, and DAOs.

Zapper is quote, on a mission to make the blockchain readable and accessible to everyone, which more recently includes new features like their activity feed.

In this podcast, we'll talk about how times have changed since the rise of DeFi summer 3 years ago, and specifically how Seb and Zapper are building for what they believe to be the next generation of decentralized social networks powered by blockchains like Ethereum.

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In just a moment, we'll introduce Seb Audit.

He has a background working in product design and engineering.

Seb previously worked at the Canadian crypto exchange Shakepay between 2019 and 2020 before founding what was then known as DeFi Snap and would eventually evolve into Zapper.

Funny enough, I used to work on the Zapper team full time with Seb and I think I was the second, third employee.

And so the background is just that in 2020, I mean, all of us obviously were Living through the excitement of DeFi proving itself as like the ultimate product market fit, I think for Ethereum at the time.

And there was a lot of synergy with folks like myself who were a power user trying to sort of evangelize DeFi.

And then many of us were using Zapper at the time to zap into a Uniswap LPs or SushiSwap LPs.

And you have to understand that this was like a radical time.

I mean, Most people didn't even understand how to get into an LP.

And so Zapper providing what was 1 of the very first opportunities or applications to track your portfolio.

And then furthermore, allowing us to gain access to these new DeFi opportunities in a few clicks.

I mean, it was, it was an explosive time.

And so I had the privilege to get to come over and work with Seb and the team.

And, and so anyways always good to catch up with you, Seb.

And yeah, really, really interested, of course, to kind of get your vision of where is Zapper now in

It's evolved a lot from the original product suite that I just described there.

And so why don't we start with a bit more about your background.

Do you want to share just how it is that you got into crypto and maybe what led to building DeFi Snap and ultimately what is now known as Zapper?

And yeah, DeFi summer in 2020, those were the good old days.

I have very fond memories and it's crazy to think how far we've come.

Like there is, like when we say we're talking about on-chain right now, like the context of on-chain back then was completely different.

There's very few things you can do, back then.

And now there's just so many use cases, but anyway, to your question, so quick background on myself, I studied in finance, but quickly, got bored by it.

You know, A lot of red tape and just wasn't my thing.

And so I decided to learn how to code during my degree.

And Right after that, fresh off of college, I got a job as a developer and kind of sprinkle, sprinkled in between me working at Shakebay and getting into crypto, a few startups and other roles as a developer.

So I was always kind of a weird designer, product manager, engineer hybrid that I could never really fit into like a large corporate box.

Like the natural thing for me was just making startups and creating new products.

And so yeah, in 2017, that's really when I discovered crypto.

It kind of, I'd say like the first mainstream-ish bull run.

And that's where I discovered Ethereum because at that time, I mean, you know, Bitcoin was the only thing that existed in my mind and the only application that exists was currency.

And so learning about Ethereum really kind of just, yeah, my mind was blown.

And I wasn't like particularly interested in like the political and monetary aspect of it.

I'm just a builder that likes to build new things.

And Ethereum was just speaking directly to me.

And I'd say from that point, I was just thinking about crypto.

I'd say like the probably the biggest exchange in Canada, biggest on-ramp.

And while I was at Shaker, that's where I stumbled in DeFi.

And I saw a lot of people talking about DeFi.

Cause I was not even on crypto Twitter at that time.

And I saw DeFi, I was like, what's that decentralized finance?

And I started playing with a few DeFi protocols, like the place where like my anchor for discovery was DeFi pulse.

That's how I discovered DeFi protocols early on.

There's like, maybe like 5, like protocols there back then, maybe like 10 million in total value lock, but that's when I started playing around with stuff back when it was a toy.

And yeah, as I was investing in different, you know, protocols, number 1 problem that, you know, arised was where's my money?

And so I built a small MVP for myself that I call DeFi snaps, like a snapshot of your DeFi balances and just solving my own problem.

And I was in a bunch of different discords.

I was in the synthetics Discord, let's say like kind of active, but more of a reader than a writer.

And I just shared the link 1 day, actually a few days, like it wasn't like 1 particular moment.

Like I was able to get an audience just from the synthetics people because you, 1 of the first things in synthetics that was like very cross composable between 2 apps was the synthetic ETH and ETH pool, or Uniswap, and then you'd stake that and you'd get SNX rewards.

So it was like, oh, if I just nail that 1 use case, I'll get users that want to see their assets in both these things.

And then it kind of just evolved from there, new protocol, new app, and then evolved into the portfolio tracker that Zapper is today.

I jumped quite a bit, but that's kind of the TLDR pre-Zapper era.

I mean, you called out the original problem for all of us was we just had no idea where our money was other than a lot of janky front ends to like new DeFi applications and I remember like 1 thing was just that you had to keep open like a hundred tabs and I knew people who are using spreadsheets to try to like keep track of it And so that ability just to track it all in 1 place, not to mention too what, I think 1 of the early features that just really blew everyone's minds was, it almost became like an airdrop tracker or a rewards tracker because a lot of people being early were earning rewards to new and interesting protocols, but you had to just go on Twitter or be in different discords talking with other users.

And so this, along with stuff like DeFi Pulse early on, and I think what eventually became like a DeFi Llama, you don't realize nowadays all of the resources that we have versus then.

And so, yeah, I guess that actually leads probably more into the next question about what is the elevator pitch nowadays?

When you talk about Zapper, you know, with just users, let's say not with like investors, but how do you frame up Zapper?

And then I wanna kind of dig into, of course, like where that evolution comes from, because the markets have changed, the DeFi landscape has changed, the NFT landscape has changed.

But anyways, if we could start with like, how do you frame up what is Zapper today?

Well the really simplest version is Zapper allows you to read the blockchain.

That said, that's not like the perfect way to position it in terms of what problem it solves.

The number 1 for us, as we pointed, was being able to track your own DeFi portfolio.

So we allowed you to read the DeFi part of the blockchain in an easier way, then we expanded to NFT.

So I'd say like the number 1 use case is really being able to read your own performance, how your assets are doing, you know.

And also another thing is seeing other accounts, like how they're performing and getting insight from that.

1 aspect that I saw kind of drive a lot of our direction that I can talk about a bit more later is people love to look at what whales are doing or what other accounts are doing to drive insight into what moves they should make next.

And that is a truth that applies not only to DeFi, but NFTs as well, and a bunch of other topics, you know, if they should bridge a new network.

Like we're very social and we leverage the transparent aspect of a blockchain to drive a lot of learning and insight into new discoveries.

And so that has been something that has been leading a lot of our efforts into making the blockchain more readable.

So it's like kind of this feedback loop of, you know, you track your own performance, you look at other accounts, what they're doing, you gain new insights into what to invest.

And then it goes back to your account, you see how you're doing, you see your performance, and then you look at new opportunities.

And there's kind of this tight feedback loop there.

So, before we get into more questions, I have to get in quickly on just the reminiscing about DeFi Summer.

I would love to see who was checking Zapper the most in that time because I know myself, it could have been like a hundred times a day at certain points of DeFi summer.

It was ridiculous how much I was just logging in and checking balances and figuring out where things were at.

And it's funny, you mentioned you worked at ShakePay.

I can't remember when it was, but I think it was like, oh man, I think it was like 2018 or 2019, but so glad I didn't get that job.

So another thing you mentioned kind of in that elevator pitch was just how Zapper has evolved from your original vision.

What's changed in like, how, how has Zapper changed and what's changed in DeFi and Web3 over the last few years?

A big thing that I realized as I was building Zapper, initially, like, the Acura is like, this is a portfolio tracker, right?

You track your portfolio and the similar web2 product, like the analogy would be like a mint.

Like mint where you can pull all your assets into 1 place?

And like that was the analogy, but you know, the foundation is completely different.

1 is you're plugging into centralized and closed off APIs.

And the other 1 is like on this transparent public ledger that anyone can look at.

And so the portfolio building or portfolio tracker felt like an anti-pattern in the sense that It's more like an account profile because you can look at other accounts too.

And when that flipped, it helped me see a much clearer path to what Zapper becomes in the future versus just a portfolio tracker.

1 of the top features at the beginning, and this shows how primitive like Zapper was at the beginning, is we built a search account feature to view other accounts and see their portfolio because people were impersonating those accounts as their own.

And that shows how we were just, we were kind of like tunnel vision on the portfolio tracker, mint web 2 product.

And because people were impersonating, well, why not add a search bar so you can search other assets in?

And then when you think about it from a user profiles, you're like, okay, so now we're surfacing the identity and then there's a DeFi part of their identity, there's the NFT part, there's the DAOs, there's their activity that informs a lot of who they are.

So it makes that a lot more natural in terms of progression.

The second thing is our expertise at Zyberify, our technical expertise, if I can summarize it, is we interpret the blockchain.

You have raw, like not pretty data, and we take that, we transform it, and then we put it into a human readable format.

And it happened that DeFi was our initial use case for that.

It's data that's spread across a bunch of different smart contracts, we pull it together and we put it into a nice, a nice shape to consume.

There's no like, there's, it's not written DeFi on a smart contract.

And so there's, there's not, these boxes don't exist on chain.

And so it felt more like we were forcing ourselves artificially through a specific kind of box than building it bottom up from our expertise in terms of interpretation.

And then there's a bunch of stuff as we kind of were moving forward is now we're seeing a lot of NFT-fied protocols.

And you kind of need to index NFTs to do that.

And so even if you're just focusing on building a portfolio tracker, you're kind of building a block explorer because you need to index events, you need to index NFTs, you need to surface the blockchain in a bunch of different ways.

And so we decided to just fully embrace that vision

Seb, in 2020, I think we would define that year by the rise of DeFi and then 2021 was more of the rise of NFTs.

And so despite my love of DeFi, I have continually recognized that NFTs remain this very dummy-proof, easy way of creating interest for new users in Web3 or crypto.

And since then, of course, we've seen a real downturn in the markets.

I mean, we've lived through like a sort of A familiar crypto bear market, you know, seeing like prices drop and activity drop and things like if you look at OpenSea as an indicator of the economic activity in the space, like OpenSea's trading volume has dropped a lot since then.

I think it's like something like 90 something percent depending on where you measure the top to bottom here.

And so I mean to paint all that context because that use of NFTs was very social and Web3 became very social.

And I think there remains like this huge opportunity for Web3 to create this engagement, this like new sort of generation of social activity that happens on chain.

I'm just wondering like how do you think about that?

Because I feel like you and the team like leaned really heavily into this and then again like per usual we're living through like some sort of crypto bear market.

And the question is, is where do you see the puck going in the coming years here?

Will that super social aspect around NFTs return?

Does Zapper look like almost like a Web3 Facebook in the future?

Not to connect to Facebook, but you get the point.

Almost like a Web3 social network type of tool.

I think the Web3 Facebook is a pretty good analogy in terms of how Zapper can look like in the future in terms of accounts and identities, seeing what their Nephi protocols are in, what DAOs they have, NFTs, their achievements, badges and stuff like that.

In terms of social, I think, I don't know, maybe I think of social in the context of Web3 a bit differently than others.

To me, DeFi isn't any less social than NFTs, just a different flavor of it.

To me, like the yield farming craze and early DeFi days were as much of a social experience as NFTs were, perhaps like a different flavor of it.

Like 1 way I think about social is blockchains to me are social networks.

And that's If someone is looking at the chain, it's just people doing random things, whether that's buying NFT, participating in a DeFi protocol.

And what I like to think about, like the analogy that I've seen a few times is like, a lot of chains are like cities.

There are this new type of kind of digital world that's permanent.

And it's very different from what we're used to in the context of like our current digital lives like Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube are more into the echo chamber, super generative, very personalized.

And so this is a completely different way of interacting online that I see coming.

And kind of going along those lines of, you know, if the blockchain is a city, what is that city like right now?

And to me, the city right now is just very hard to see properly.

And to really be able to fully embrace the kind of superpowers a blockchain has, people need to be able to see it.

Like we need to be able to surface what it is properly.

Like say it's the transparent, like we like to say that blockchains are transparent, but in reality, not a lot of people actually experienced that through their, through their experiences of the blockchain.

You know, when you use Uniswap, you're kind of in a silo.

You're not in the context of, oh, there's a bunch of people doing swaps right now.

You kind of get that feel on Twitter, but that's like on a, you know, a product that wasn't purpose built for blockchain activity.

And so it's like how, if we make the blockchain readable for everyone, we kind of put forward or put on a net emphasis on its unique qualities like transparency, permanence, and all these different things.

And to me, there's a big social aspect of that.

Cause if it's like this vibrant downtown, then you see people, you see what they're doing, whether they're pseudonymous, anonymous or whatever.

You're able to get a new level of insight that you would never have with the current landscape of the web where it's your experience of crypto Twitter might be completely different.

I have no way of verify how different your experience is.

You might be fed opinions that are completely different or opportunities that are just twisted through the engagement grinder algorithm.

And so having this foundation to me is really important.

And that's where I kind of see Zapper in the future is like if we make the blockchain readable to everyone, we're kind of showing that it's a city that people go to and do things.

And that's where I see kind of a few issues or problems with the current social products is they're kind of building a Twitter version, a web 3 Twitter.

And I don't know, to me it feels a bit too much like we're just borrowing concepts from web 2 and applying it to a foundation that is just completely different.

Yeah, I really like that analogy you walk through with, with the cities and, and I hear it all the time too, just everyone saying, oh, well, everything's there.

It's so transparent, but it's really not unless you're like a high level expert user of blockchain.

So, you know, what I see tools like Zapper doing is just taking all that data and putting it in packaging it into something that people can actually read.

And again, it's like you talk about the next onboarding the next many users to crypto like this is the type of tooling that's required yeah we can't we can't just all be experts of reading ether scan like there's no way my dad is going to be going through Etherscan ever in his life.

Ethereum is a social network and it's not really readable, like I like to think about, you know, how Facebook's growth would have been stunted if it was just only readable by technical people.

Like Facebook would have stopped its growth at 1 point, like where the wall, you can only look at the wall if you're super technical and understand what's happening there.

And so like to kind of enable this new level of growth, you kind of need to make that social network more, more readable.

And I know there's always like kind of like early DeFi incumbents that I feel like some of them like to hold on to that difficulty of use just because it's like something that they know and understand they were there to first and they safeguarded a bit but you know it for the space to grow we can't have that.

I want to just quickly jump into the Zapper product suite.

What products are building for this more blockchain-enabled social experience that you're talking about?

What are you currently building and what is the suite right now as it stands today?

So right now I'd say there's like 2 main products.

1 is everything identity related, like tracking your portfolio, seeing someone else's account and activities they have, like really seeing an entire like bird's eye view, 360 view of what they own, what they have, what they did in the past.

And then the second part is like 1 that we're clearly working on a lot.

Not that we're not working on the other part is finding new opportunities.

So seeing more like the events, what's happening on chain.

That part we still haven't fully cracked.

We've recently launched our activity feed where you can follow different accounts and then once you follow them, it's kind of like Twitter, but every, instead of a post, it's a transaction.

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Can Zapper Make The Blockchain Social?