Discussion on the potential use of MEV and the careful design considerations for Solana protocol.

Introduction to MEV and Solana

Exploration of protecting data across multiple chains and the concept of shielding rewards for data privacy protections.

Multi-Chain Protection and Shielding Rewards

Interview with Lucas Bruder, discussing the history of GEDO, development of restaking platform, and design considerations.

Interview with Lucas Bruder, GEDO Restaking Platform

Discussion on the design iterations and flexibility of the restaking protocol, including considerations for LSTs and governance tokens.

Design Iterations and Flexibility of Restaking Protocol

Exploration of the decentralization of stake pools on Solana and the integration of liquid staking tokens.

Decentralization of Stake Pools and Liquid Staking Tokens

Consideration of oracles and keepers as use cases for decentralization and security on Solana.

Oracle Decentralization and Keeper Use Cases

Nomada introduces a novel shielding reward system to strengthen data protection guarantees and support IBC and Ethereum based assets.

Introduction to Nomada

Holding assets in the shielded set strengthens Nomada's data protection guarantees and rewards users with NOM tokens.

Nomada's Shielding Reward System

Eigenlayer introduces the Inter-Subjective Work token to handle faults, while Symbiotic focuses on letting the market decide the possibilities of the system.

Discussion on Oracle Example

Symbiotic's design allows for flexibility in handling faults and slashing, offering multiple options for governance and slashing.

Flexibility and Slashing in Symbiotic

Symbiotic's slashing window and veto committee provide flexibility and options for rejecting slashes from committees.

Symbiotic's Slashing Window

Eigenlayer's approach focuses on exporting the trust of ETH to other networks and capturing value flowing back to ETH validators and stakers.

Eigenlayer's Supply Side Orientation

Learning from leading protocols and charting a unique path based on valuable learnings and insights.

Learning from Protocols and Charting a Path

Discussion on the differences in restaking dynamics between Solana and Ethereum, including the impact of architecture and restaking UX.

Dynamics of Restaking in Solana

Comparison of restaking dynamics and on-chain/off-chain activities between Ethereum and Solana, focusing on the differences in building off-chain vs. on-chain.

Restaking on Ethereum vs. Solana

Anticipation of increased restaking activity on Solana and the potential impact on validators and stakers.

Restaking Activity on Solana

Discussion on the implications of slashing and security considerations for AVSs, emphasizing the need for careful design and impact assessment.

Slashing and Security Considerations

Exploration of the potential for restaking platforms to be isolated to specific ecosystems or to expand across multiple ecosystems.

Restaking Marketplaces and Ecosystems

Exploring the role of restaking in driving protocol improvements and unlocking features for AVSs on Solana and Ethereum.

Restaking and Protocol Improvements

Discussion on the synergies between liquid staking tokens and restaking, and the potential for creating more utility than would exist otherwise.

Synergies in Liquid Staking and Restaking

Discussion about golfing, beer, and finding a fourth person for the team.

Golfing and Having Fun

Introduction to Jito network and how to get in contact with the team.

Introduction to Jito Network

Comparison of market dynamics for restaking in Ethereum versus Solana.

Market Dynamics for Restaking

Discussion about security properties and roadmap of Ethereum and Solana.

Security Properties and Roadmap

Comparison of demand side alignment approach between Solana and Ethereum.

Demand Side Alignment

Discussion about staking utility and governance tokens in different protocols.

Staking Utility and Governance Tokens

Discussion about restaking use cases and network approach for different protocols.

Restaking Use Cases and Network Approach

Insight into symbiotic approach and market dynamics of restaking platforms.

Symbiotic Insight and Market Dynamics

Discussion about challenges and customer segments in restaking platforms.

Challenges and Customer Segments

Exploration of opportunities, innovations, and customer engagements in restaking platforms.

Opportunities and Innovations

Convergence of restaking platforms into programmable staking platforms.

Flexible Staking Platforms

Final thoughts and conclusion of the interview portion of the season.

Conclusion and Wrap Up

Acknowledgment and shout out to GEDO and NMADA for their work in the industry.

Final Shout Out to GEDO and NMADA

- The interview discusses the launch of the Gito restaking platform and its place within the GEDOTE suite of products
- The platform was developed in response to the need for decentralized stake pools on Solana
- The initial design iterations focused on flexibility for protocols and the level of security needed for staking
- The interview also touches on the potential challenges of isolated security models and the impact of low liquidity tokens on stake availability.

- The speaker discusses the design and development of a protocol for liquid staking on Solana
- They initially considered pooled tokens but decided to build liquid staking tokens (LRTs) into the protocol
- The protocol allows for flexibility in creating LRTs with different assets as collateral
- They also address the challenges of rebalancing and claiming rewards on Ethereum compared to Solana
- The protocol aims to let the market decide and be flexible in its approach
- The discussion also touches on the consideration of native stake and the history of the project's development, including its connection to MEV and centralization points in the staking process.

- The speaker discusses potential applications of MEV in StakeNet and the decentralization of Oracle components
- Solana's lack of a separate beacon chain allows for easy access to execution data and validator information without needing an Oracle
- The speaker mentions the importance of identifying central points of failure and the use of oracles in Solana
- Restaking and L2s are also discussed as potential use cases for Solana
- The discussion also includes considerations for operators and validators in Solana's ecosystem

- Nomada introduces a novel shielding reward system for holding assets in the shielded set
- It initially supports IBC and Ethereum based assets, with plans to expand to all assets
- Nomada aims to bring about a better future and onboard new applications
- Symbiotic is discussed as a flexible platform for AVS use
- Differences in restaking dynamics between Ethereum and Solana are highlighted, with Solana being fast and cheap with low latency and more on-chain activity
- Solana's system calls and ability to run AVS on chain are discussed
- The potential for more activity on Solana to result in more priority fees for stakers is mentioned

- The discussion covers signature verification methods and programmatic slashing on chain
- The focus is on the supply side of Solana restaking and the moneyness of the base asset
- There is a debate on slashing and the dynamics of restaking marketplaces, whether they will be isolated to specific ecosystems or more across ecosystems
- The flexibility and generic nature of restaking platforms is emphasized, with a prediction that the ones that are more flexible will end up winning in the long run.

- The discussion revolves around the potential of Gito restaking platform to include ETH and Solana based AVS's
- The expansion of Magic Eden to different chains has been successful, particularly in the NFT market
- The potential for Solana to be used for restaking is discussed, with emphasis on MEV and liquid staking tokens
- The structure of Gito as a single entity without competition between different lines of business is seen as an advantage
- The potential for restaking in MEV and the synergy between liquid staking tokens and restaking is highlighted

- The conversation revolves around a golf game and the dynamics of beer consumption during the game
- The discussion then shifts to the restaking platform and its market dynamics for Ethereum vs Solana
- The conversation delves into the different approaches and challenges of restaking platforms
- The potential success and challenges of restaking platforms on both the supply and demand sides are discussed
- The conversation ends with speculation on the future of restaking platforms and their success in the market

- Gito restaking platform is part of the GEDOTE suite of products and was developed in response to the need for decentralized stake pools on Solana
- Initial design focused on flexibility for protocols and security for staking
- The protocol allows for flexibility in creating liquid staking tokens (LRTs) with different assets as collateral
- Challenges of isolated security models and low liquidity tokens on stake availability are discussed
- Potential applications of MEV in StakeNet and the decentralization of Oracle components on Solana are explored
- Nomada introduces a novel shielding reward system for holding assets in the shielded set
- Solana's fast and cheap system, restaking dynamics, and potential for more activity resulting in more priority fees for stakers are highlighted
- The discussion covers signature verification methods, programmatic slashing on chain, and the moneyness of the base asset
- The potential for Gito restaking platform to include ETH and Solana based AVS's is discussed
- The conversation ends with speculation on the future of restaking platforms and their success in the market

- The discussion covers the potential of GDOT and LRT in the crypto market
- The focus is on demand side value and the potential impact on token value
- The conversation also touches on staking tokens and their impact on market cap
- The interview concludes with a shoutout to GEDO and a mention of the upcoming wrap-up episode of the season.

- Encouraging actions to strengthen data privacy across multiple chains
- Acknowledging Namata for their work

- Discussion on potential of GDOT and LRT in crypto market
- Focus on demand side value and impact on token value
- Staking tokens and their impact on market cap discussed
- Shoutout to GEDO and mention of upcoming wrap-up episode
- Encouragement to strengthen data privacy across multiple chains
- Acknowledgment of Namata's work

In this episode, Lucas Bruder from Jito discusses their newly launched restaking platform for Solana. The conversation covers the history of Jito's products, the design choices behind their restaking solution, and how it differs from Ethereum-based platforms like Eigen Layer. Lucas explains the flexibility of Jito's approach, allowing for various assets including governance tokens, and discusses potential use cases such as oracles and keepers. The episode also explores the broader implications for Solana's ecosystem and the future of restaking across different blockchain environments.
Thanks for tuning in!
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Resources
Jito Restaking Announcement: https://x.com/jito_sol/status/1816488798374830164
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Namada is the shielded asset hub rewarding you to protect the multichain. Enabling data protection for any existing asset, app, or chain, Namada introduces shielded cross-chain actions and rewards for shielding your assets, which strengthens data protection guarantees for everyone.

Namada is currently in its mainnet launch phase — follow along on namada.net
--
Join us at Permissionless III. Use code BELL10 for a 10% discount: https://blockworks.co/event/permissionless-iii
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Follow Lucas: https://x.com/buffalu__
Follow Myles: https://x.com/MylesOneil
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Subscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/3R1D1D9
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--
Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
2:46 The History of Jito
5:43 Jito Restaking Design Decisions
17:23 Potential Use Cases for Restaking
29:38 Namada Ad
30:37 Dealing with Potential Downtime
34:46 Restaking on Solana vs Ethereum
40:25 The Supply Side of Solana Restaking
42:42 Handling Slashing
46:45 Restaking Marketplace Dynamics
53:37 How Can Restaking Impact the Solana L1?
57:07 Synergies Within Jito's Product Suite
1:01:51 Outro
--
Disclaimer: Nothing said on Bell Curve is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Mike, Jason, Michael, Vance and our guests may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed.

I think the most obvious, at least in like my, the world that I'm in, where this could be used is MEV.

I think you have to be very careful about the way that's designed.

And yeah, it just lets you like move faster and you could potentially try things faster that the protocol can't do.

So like maybe that is potentially less valid, but I do think like you can try things to potentially modify the protocol and see if it works or not, without actually spending the time to bake it into the protocol.

But you have to be careful in what you're doing and make sure you're thinking about any like second order effects of what could go wrong.

There's certain like doors like that once you open them, you can't really close them.

So not only can you protect your own data across any asset and any chain, but you also get shielding rewards for strengthening data privacy protections for everyone.

So you can check them out at namata.net and follow their mainnet launch, stick around, you're gonna be hearing all about them later in the program.

All right, everyone, welcome back to another episode of Bell Curve.

Before we jump in, quick disclaimer, the views expressed by my co-host today are their personal views and they do not represent the views of any organization with which the co-hosts are associated with.

Nothing in the episode is construed or relied upon as financial, technical, tax, legal, or other advice.

Welcome back to another episode of bell curve.

This is the final interview episode of the restaking season.

So we got a really special episode for you.

Joined by my trusty co-host, Miles O'Neill.

And today we're interviewing Lucas Bruder, aka Bufaloo, the man himself from GEDO.

Yeah, good to have you back on the show, dude.

Well, we're talking just a day after you unveiled the long rumored Gito restaking platform.

So huge congratulations on getting that out the door.

And we got a bunch of questions for you just about the architecture of the platform and some of the differences that might exist in the market for E3 staking versus Sol restaking.

But before we get there, can you just give us the history of why you decided to launch a restaking platform and where it sits within the entire suite because right now, GEDO has been incredibly impressive in tackling these huge markets.

There's the MEV product that you guys have, there's liquid staking, and now you're adding restaking to that.

So can you just kind of even just like give us a little bit of a history of, you know, which problems you started working on at GDOTE first and how that led to the existing products suite and where restaking belongs there.

Yeah, quick history on like GDOTE, how we got here.

And I think kind of realized pretty quickly that, we could create a fly wheel with Gita soul in the mev stack.

So then got into liquid staking and then, I would say like mid 2023, we started kind of ideating on StakeNet, which was like our way of decentralizing stake pools on Solana and liquid staking tokens.

For those that don't know, Solana is Delegated Proof of Stake.

And when you're on a stake pool, you have a bunch of stake, you need to figure out where does the stake go, to which validators.

There's a bunch of different ways you can do that.

But we wanted the, I guess the main point is that like there's, someone has to do that or something has to do that.

And for a lot of stake pools in Solana, there's just like a hot wallet that basically does it.

And we realized that if we wanted liquid staking to grow and be massive on Solana, then that hot wallet would kind of be a point of concern for potential like security issues related to like hacks and things like that.

And then I would say, late 2023, we kind of saw what was going on with Eigen layer.

And then also like, as we started ideating on Stakenet more, there's a few pieces that even within Stakenet that need to be decentralized.

There's a few like oracles and things like that.

And we also saw the kind of uptick in Eigenlayer and how many liquid staking tokens were getting.

It's kind of like a vacuum for liquid staking tokens.

And so in the spirit of decentralizing things further on StakeNet and the like opportunity for liquid staking tokens started to look into restaking, I would say like October, November of last year.

And then I would say December and January really started diving into starting to design it and think about it and code it.

And yeah, it's gone through a few iterations, but pretty happy with the way that ended up in the code that's open source.

I think that whole arc makes a lot of sense.

I'd love to get a sense of what these iterations were.

Were there design choices that you felt strongly about going into the architecture design process that you kind of did a 180 on or at least maybe made less opinionated when you were designing the system?

So yeah, the first iteration was, we think that restaking is going to look different on Solana than Ethereum.

And like maybe there's some aspects of restaking where you're taking like staked assets like LSTs or StakeSol and using it to secure things.

And then there's, I think a large component that's going to be governance tokens or utility tokens.

It's very cheap to send transactions on Solana.

So I think there's just a lot of bots and a lot of automation involved with a lot of protocols in Solana.

And so, you know, TBD, if restaking is the right word for that, but that's what we called it.

And so, like, I guess the goal is like, make it flexible for protocols.

If they want to use their own governance tokens, how much security does a keeper actually need?

Does it actually need a bunch of security?

Also, if you have a governance token, you probably want to use it for something utility related.

And so that was kind of the first thing that we thought about.

The first system, I know we talked a little bit about it.

So basically, every AVS was isolated from each other.

And, the thought there was like, How much security do you actually need?

If you have a slashing event, it can have massive cascading effects.

Isolated, you don't really need to think about that.

It's like everything is isolated to its own EVS.

And then it kind of mimic the, I think the Solano staking model is pretty elegant.

But then the more I was talking to people is like, if this isn't pooled, someone might build like a pooled wrapper on it, or there might be certain use cases where it's like, it kind of fragments the liquidity and fragments the security.

So if you have like, if there is a world where there's a bunch of L2s that have a bunch of TV on Solana, then your isolated model would look weird or like you'd have to have like AVSs like merging together to like meet their security requirements.

So kind of went back to the drawing board, thought that pooled is a good option.

Lucas, can you just like say, like, what's an example like concretely of where that might get a little hairy?

Like in a world of like an isolated security world where maybe there are like L2s on Solana, like what's a real life situation that could happen where like that model starts to break down just to make it a little concrete?

Yeah, like I guess the instances where like there's an L2 that requires a lot of security and there's another L2 that comes online that requires a lot of security.

And there's another L2 that comes online that requires a lot of security.

And when you, if that L2 can like, if you're in the isolated model, then that maybe you have like what L2 vampire attack, the other 1, and the security goes down a lot and then there might be bad ramifications from that.

Kind of like a, it's a cost and availability, like supply availability question, right?

So like isolated and low liquidity tokens are probably gonna cost the most, right, to be able to like attract just for stake, right?

And tokens that everybody already holds and that are already earning yield, probably the cheapest.

But yeah, that was kind of like the first design.

And then there's a few things that the realizing that like maybe pooled isn't that bad if you can have the right restrictions in place and like controls and the risk is easy to audit and then also saw the adoption of LRTs and you know GEDO Sol is a liquid staking token that represents Solana stake accounts that are not liquid.

And so we were like, okay, let's like, I was kind of worried if you like release that then there might be, it might not get the full adoption that it deserves.

And it doesn't necessarily meet like the high bar that we want the protocol and products to have.

So I kind of went back to the drawing board, ended up building the LRTs into the protocol.

So the only way to stake is through an LRT.

And Also ended up adding, there's a lot of bidirectional agreements that take place between all the parties involved.

So you can control the risk and you can actually audit the risk.

And there's like caps on slashing and things like that.

So you can actually fully understand the risk on chain.

And people have the liquidity of the LRTs.

And the actual assets that are used for the LRTs are like, it's kind of up to the LRT creator.

AVS can decide if they want to do it or not.

So the AVSs could like support certain assets or they can be selective on the LRTs.

Like if they see an LRT is like just de-genning into everything, maybe they don't want to support that because the security could get pulled out from underneath them.

So the second version is just very flexible.

It's kind of like a combination of a restaking protocol for LSTs and then also just like a generic staking protocol for any type of token on Solana.

Just 1 thing to clarify, if let's say 1 of the vaults supports like 3 AVSs, 2 of the AVSs are only using, let's say, Jito Sol, right, as collateral.

And the third AVS is using a governance token and Jito Sol.

from that vault, like if I deposit just GDOSoul to that vault, is the LRT a representation of the GDOSoul that's been deposited and the third underlying governance token, or does that have its different?

So it's not like you don't just mint a derivative token that represents everything that the vault really is like supporting.

Well, a vault is a vault supports a single on Solana.

It'd be like a contract address for like a year C 20.

So like you could use G to soul G to Pith, you know, whatever that is.

If you wanted to mix assets, then you could basically create another token in a different program.

And like that would be responsible for balancing the assets.

And then you would create the vault and the LRT with that wrapped mixture token.

It's like if you want to create an index soul or whatever where it's like you want an LRT that has multiple assets backing it, then you would create like a token wrapper and then you would use that to create the vault.

Hopefully like You don't want to be mixing like LSTs and highly volatile assets.

I mean, maybe people do, but, it's like the, my current thought that's, weekly hell is just kind of like, let the market decide what it wants.

And like, people will figure it out and like everything will be available on chain so you'll be able to see what's going on.

And I think 1 of the challenges with LRTs on Ethereum is that it's really expensive to like do these rebalancing actions and really expensive to claim token rewards or to liquidate, you know, AVS reward tokens to ETH.

All of that kind of goes away on Solana, which I think is really nice.

Yeah, I mean, it's like a penny or less than a penny to rebalance your vault and like where it's delegating and you know, I think another thing, we're still thinking about rewards like that hasn't been designed yet, but there might be some vaults that want to distribute rewards to stakers and like maybe they're more like aligned or I think like aligned with the AVS's that they're delegating to and then maybe there's vaults that like just want to like sell it and kind of auto compound it into the asset and Hoping to like figure out a way that leaves that flexible

That's another thing where you can just kind of let the market decide.

Hopefully the frameworks are figured out to where there's a few different ways that you can kind of just copy and paste of doing it.

But The protocol tries to like, the goal of the protocol I think should just kind of be like let the market figure it out and hopefully there's like a pattern that emerges for these things.

I guess the other major area of like complexity on Ethereum has to do with native stake, right?

So reading beacon chain balances and communicating that to the execution layer.

Or was NativeStake a consideration for you?

It's not actually built into the protocol.

But as I was talking about earlier, like you create an LRT year, the staked asset from a token mint.

That's not a Solana stake account, isn't a token mint.

So you could basically like wrap stake accounts in a token.

But then you've like kind of created a stake pool there.

So like you might as well just use like an LSD or something.

Like the SPL stake pool has been audited like 8 or 9 times.

So yes, someone could create that if they wanted to.

So maybe just, Lucas, to repeat some of this back that you've said so far.

Like the history, if I'm following this correctly, is you started working on MEV, realized there was a flywheel with liquid staking, the flywheel being the MEV infrastructure and a lot of the MEV that was being generated on Solana at the time that you guys started working was relatively immature.

And so if you're able to extract more or like build more efficient blocks, essentially, or build the infrastructure that allows that type of more sophisticated building.

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How Jito is Unlocking Restaking for Solana | S8 Finale | Lucas Bruder