General Wayne Eyre, the Chief of the Defense Staff for Canada, joins Joe to share over three decades worth of leadership lessons, including how reading, writing, and reflection have shaped his career. They also talk about what it means to be a pro...

How do I know what I think until I see what I say?

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Welcome to another episode of From the Green Notebook.

I'm your host, Joe Byerly, and this week we're diving into the Green Notebook of General Wayne Ayer.

General Ayer is the Chief of Defense for Canada, and in this episode, he shares over 3 decades worth of leadership lessons and how reading, writing, and reflection have shaped his career.

We also talk about what it means to be a professional in today's military, the importance of holistic health and fitness for leaders, and why failure is a great teacher.

So grab your green notebooks And please welcome to the show, General Eyre.

Hey, Joe, thanks for having me on the show today.

I'm a big fan of what you do and I listen to your podcast religiously.

I wanna thank you for pushing the professional and personal development so much because the tool that you provide is just so useful.

And I've followed you for way before your current position on social media, and I've learned a lot from you along the way.

So I appreciate you being open to this opportunity.

It's a huge opportunity for me a huge opportunity for the show and listeners.

Could you share a little bit about your background?

I joined Army Cadets, which is a youth program we have at the age of 12, and I've been in uniform ever since.

I went through a military college system, commissioned as a second lieutenant into the infantry, my regiment's Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry.

I've had the fortune of serving as a commander at all levels, platoon through to division and our army and then currently as the Chief of Defense Staff.

Great opportunities to serve around the world, served with the United Nations in Cyprus, United Nations in Croatia at the height of the Yugoslav Wars, in Bosnia with NATO, a couple of tours in Afghanistan.

Served in Korea as the Deputy Commander of the United Nations Command, first non-US Deputy Commander for that position.

A lot of experience with US forces, did the US Army Special Forces Qualification course as a Captain, did the Marine Corps Command Staff College, School of Advanced Warfighting, did the US Army War College.

You can say I've been educated by you, most of my professional, senior professional military education.

You won't let me vote yet down there, but that's okay.

I've had the opportunity to serve as the Deputy Commander of 18th Airborne Corps, which was a fantastic experience.

And so a lot of time, either on deployments or postings, working with US forces, and I've got a tremendous amount of respect for the leadership that you have around the world.

I'm curious, you know, mentioning 18th Airborne Corps, In that role, for those of you that aren't familiar, 1 of the deputy commanding generals of the 18th Airborne Corps is a Canadian general, not a US general.

So I'm curious, what did you learn from that position that you've kind of brought back with you?

Well, there were many lessons that I took away from that that fantastic experience.

I deployed to Afghanistan with the Corps as the Corps took on the ISAF Joint Command.

And I took command of NATO training mission Afghanistan as a subordinate command to the Corps.

But you know, just so much the role of a deputy commander, and what that is in terms of extending the command reach for the commander, of being at decisive points of providing a mechanism in which to extend the communication of the commander's intent, and likewise be a sensor to bring back valuable observations.

You know, better understanding of large-scale operations and how to delineate between current operations, future operations and future plans, and setting the conditions for subordinates.

And being able to develop relationships with many senior US officers paying huge dividends today.

And that job is where I first met General Milley.

And I tell you in this job having that connection is very, very useful as we face the challenges and crises around the world.

And something else that was interesting that I took away from that experience was the U.S.

It was definitely a positive that I've strived to bring back here to Canada.

Recognition in terms of the very formal ceremonies for promotions, for awards, bringing the family in.

And I think that is an aspect of US military culture that should be recognized.

I'd like to ask a couple of questions if I can about some of the stuff you just said.

You mentioned being a censor for the commander and I'm curious as you've come up in the ranks, you were a censor for a commanding general and now you're a commanding general.

How important is that to you to understanding what's going on in the force and to some of the decisions you make?

Well for me it's all about creating a command climate where subordinates, where somebody is willing to bring you ground truth.

We've seen too many cases where subordinates are reluctant to speak truth to power, to be the bearer of bad news, and commanders absolutely need that.

And so subordinates have got to have the courage to come forward with that truth, but also the commander has got to create that climate where that truth is accepted.

If the Emperor is not wearing any clothes, well, somebody better speak up because otherwise everybody's going to be embarrassed.

And, you know, something that the current 18th Airborne Corps Commander General Donahue, I hear him say it all the time, is that at the O5 command level, the battalion command level, you've got 1 foot in reality and 1 foot in fantasy.

As you go up in rank in the institution, in the military, that foot gets closer and closer and closer to that fantasy line and eventually crosses over.

And it's really hard to get ground truth.

And I didn't appreciate that until I was in charge of my own organization and realized that it is very easy to live in fantasy land and you actually have to fight to be able to keep your pulse on the organization.

When I was a junior officer, we used to cynically call the higher level echelons above reality.

I find it's harder and harder to maintain an understanding of ground truth.

And so a deliberate effort has to be made.

So getting those sensors out there, getting out there yourself and seeing, super important.

And I want to talk about reading in a second.

You know, when you said that, I recently read General Gavin's journal from World War II.

It was called Gavin Wars, just recently published by his daughter Chloe.

He said the exact same thing you just said.

He recognized that the difference between the great generals in World War II and the ones that weren't that great.

And it was exactly what you just said, the ability to get out, to understand what's going on in the front lines, to see and interact with people.

You know, he said that was probably the greatest thing he did throughout the war, was constantly visiting the front lines to understand the truth.

And the ones who didn't do that kind of floated away into that fantasy land.

So, you know, I just mentioned a book and, you know, as we've, I guess I've followed you as well over the years, you know, I know that reading has played a large role in your development.

What role has it played in your development as a leader?

Well, it's played a massive role in my continued development.

If you take a look at our professional military education, It's episodic.

You know, once every several years, you go away to the schoolhouse, you learn, you immerse yourself in the profession.

But the world situation is changing so fast that that pace of acceleration has picked up that we can't afford to only rely on that as our developmental tool.

It's a way to benefit from the experience of others.

About 8 or 9 years ago, I wrote a paper called Why We Read.

I did it as 1 star to just put out there.

It was the front end of our Army reading list, just to show the importance.

It's also super useful for decision making.

If we understand that a lot of decisions are made using intuition, Intuition is based on pattern recognition and mental mindsets.

Well, that pattern recognition, those patterns don't have to be all from your own experience.

The broader you can make them and using other people's experiences through reading about them, the better decisions, the better bank of patterns you're going to have for that decision-making.

As you look back, are there any books that stand out?

And I've read, just if you're not following General Ayer on Twitter, he currently releases book, not only in English, but also his list is in French too.

But what are some of the books that kind of stood out through your career?

There are just so many of them and you get something from every book, whether it's history, whether it's military theory, whether it's decision-making theory, whether it's science fiction, a fan of them all.

You know, science fiction, for example, starship troopers and the leadership that is discussed in there against the backdrop of some pretty profound philosophical discussions.

It's about the Canadian Army in the Korean War, and it's probably the best operational study I've read of our participation in that war.

Everything from force generation to small unit actions, and the necessity to be aggressive, to dominate no man's land, to relationships with allies.

In my current job, where political military relations are super important, the book, Supreme Command by Elliot Cohen.

You know, likewise, as we change the way we think about leadership, the fearless organization by Amy Edmondson, talking about psychological safety in the workplace, very, very impactful as well.

So here's something that I've thought about a lot over the last decade doing From the Green Notebook is that our organization, at least in the US military, we don't reward folks for doing this, right?

There's no incentive to spend those extra hours each day reading, but it's something that becomes very apparent, I've realized, especially as you climb the organization and the problems you encounter get much more complex and the issues that you face become very different maybe than once you dealt as a junior officer.

I'm just curious, is it kind of the same way in the Canadian military as well?

For me, it's the true sign of professionalism.

You know, the willingness to continually update your professional knowledge, but also at the same time write about it and contribute to that body of professional knowledge.

And so you may not get the, at times, the tangible recognition through points on a promotion board or the like, but you shouldn't be doing it for that.

You should be doing it through that innate sense of professionalism to be the absolute best or striving to be the best at your chosen way of life.

Yeah, I was a captain and I read this book called The Last Place on Earth, which is about the 1911 expedition to the South Pole.

And the way the author kind of framed the whole thing, but it was Robert Falcon Scott versus Roald Abenson.

And you had Scott who, for all intents and purposes, was trying to do this thing to be the first country to reach the South Pole because of the recognition, because of the opportunity to become an admiral in the British Royal Navy if he was to lead his team.

And then you had this other guy from Norway, Roald Amundsen.

And this guy, he approached polar exploration like it was his profession.

So he studied it every opportunity, every book that had been published by a previous explorer, every journal he had read it.

And you see as these 2 guys are trekking to the South Pole, you just see the difference right away.

Rold's, Adaminson's ability to anticipate problems, see opportunities.

And in the very end, not only did Adam and get there 2 weeks before Scott, but Adam and Sam was able to bring his entire team back alive.

Whereas Scott, we know what happened to them, because we read their journals that were next to their frozen bodies, and their tent, Nobody made it back.

Well, you have recently talked about the hero's journey, and that really got me thinking about, and I think you mentioned it, a military career as the hero's journey, and the hero always trying to make himself or herself better as they go through this this series of trials and I can see the relationship between the 2.

Again it's about preparation for the trial.

We can go through just touching the stove with bare hands continually time after time, or we can figure out a smarter way.

So I think to your point earlier of, you know, we're not going to get extra points on an evaluation for it, but it's going to show its fruits in our ability to make decisions, especially in those key moments in command or even as a supporting role in a staff.

Well, it'll be reflected in your character, your competence, and hopefully your commitment.

That was like when Epictetus was talking about how do we know if a sheep's eating well?

We don't ask it to throw up and examine it.

It's in its coat that it produces, which is something I learned from Ryan Holiday, which I know you've read a few of his books.

So easy to read, so insightful, and so applicable.

Talking about those, talking about some of the other books you read, like I think that's another important aspect.

When I came in the military, I thought I had to be an expert at military history.

There's a canon I think that as professionals, we should read, but I also think that there's so many other books out there that you can pull from to be able to perform at your job.

Well, you take a look at the complexity of today's military operations.

You know, I've argued in the past that the platoon or company commander of today has got to have the same type of knowledge with respect to history, economy, culture, interagency relations that potentially the division or even corps commander of the Second World War had to have.

And I think in today's environment, it was something I learned early on is that, in the US, Monday night football is really big.

And then on Tuesday, everybody's commenting on what happened Monday night.

And now it's social media, live Twitter feeds, anything you can go live and start streaming immediately.

So every decision that you make, there's going to be a phone or 2 that's flipped out that's filming and everybody's going to critique the next day.

And so you have that weight on you, especially in a combat or a high intense situation.

And that's 1 of the things I've come to realize in this job.

Most of the decisions that come in front of me are what I call 49-51 decisions.

You're going to be criticized regardless.

You need to not worry about the criticism that is going to come.

You know, that's where the stoic philosophy really comes in.

You're not worrying about attacks on your reputation, not worrying about the opinions of others, you know, being guided by your values, being guided by wisdom, by justice, by fairness.

And that was something I struggled with early on was wanting to be liked as a leader.

Those decisions still weigh heavy on me, but they weighed heavy earlier in my career for different reasons.

How have you overcome that, knowing that there's going to be either a 49 or a 51 on every decision that you make?

Well, you talked earlier about social media and it's out there.

And the ability to be anonymous on social media gives many courage to be a troll.

And so, avoiding comments many times, there are those out there who wanna spread disinformation, who want to attempt to harm the institution, who want to discredit individuals for their own sick purposes.

Avoiding that, you know, avoiding reading many of the comments on social media, staying away from that.

Having my public affairs officer give me a synopsis of something that's important.

It's hard to avoid at times, but 1 of the things I've come to realize in this job.

I remember my interview with Arthur Brooks last summer, and he was talking about, he said, leaders of organizations, they are the most objectified position in the organization.

And again, I just stepped into the role of a leader and I didn't appreciate it at the time.

And so how do you, because I imagine like you can do your best to avoid those reading the comments, reading the tweets, but I would imagine it does, you know, weigh on you at some level.

How do you, I guess, how do you disengage from the job or how do you recoup your energy, especially, you know, as you come across those things?

Yeah, you've got to be very keen to ensure that you don't take it personally, to compartmentalize it, to realize, yes, it goes with the position.

It wouldn't matter who was in the position, that that would be out there.

It's the nature of the times that we are in, where that type of commentary, the disinformation that's out there, it's so prevalent.

And so not to take it personally, it's albeit hard to do at times, but for me in very stressful times in this position, you know, reading the Stoic philosophy, reading Holliday's books and other books about that, and just reflecting about the moment we are in, the job that we are doing and carrying on from there.

You know, talking about Ryan Holiday, I've heard that 1 of your favorite books of his is Ego is the Enemy.

Why does that book in particular appeal to you?

So I put that book on the reading list, 1 of the few books I've put on the reading list for our general and flag officers, because it is so important.

I've seen too many failures because an overly developed sense of ego, poor leadership due to ego, toxic leadership due to ego.

You know, ego tends to close off other possibilities.

We've got to realize that regardless of what level you're at, you don't have all the answers.

You've got to be open to other ways of doing business.

You've got to be open that maybe you've made a mistake.

We all, I think, have imposter syndrome when we're put into many of these jobs, and how you deal with it is important.

Do you show that sense of vulnerability and you don't have all of the answers, Or do you close down with a sense of overconfidence and make all sorts of mistakes?

Being cognizant of ego is super important in a leader.

I've learned it, and again, this is not a lesson I learned at 25.

If you fake the funk, you will spend more time and energy continuing to fake the funk than Actually putting the time into learning whatever it is.

You were faking That's 1 thing that I wish early on in my military career, I would have been able to kind of push ego aside and learn instead of acting like I knew the answers.

No, it's a lesson I think that all need to hoist aboard, especially at the front end of a career.

As you've gone up, you've watched a lot of people come up before you, you're in a position of power now.

What have you learned about power and ego over the years?

Well, I've seen cases where power has affected ego.

You start to believe your own press clippings as people have said good things about you to your face.

You just got to avoid, avoid believing it all.

As you go into these positions, you've got to avoid falling in love with the trappings of office and developing a sense of entitlement for those.

But again, it goes back to creating a climate where people are willing to bring bad news to you.

People are willing to tell you, be honest with you, if your personality, if your decisions, if the way that you deal with people is having a negative impact, just to remind you, you are mortal.

You know, I'm reminded of the story about the Roman generals, victorious Roman generals coming back and there being a hired slave to whisper in their ear.

I tell you, for me, my wife fills that role on a regular basis.

But just being humble and reminding yourself that yeah, this too shall end.

What are some practical ways you would recommend as people come up?

Because I find that too, I'm in a position, it would be very easy for me to allow ego and the job to kind of overrule my identity, who I am.

And I do, I find like as much as I read and as much as I thought I was prepared for that, Coming into this job, I find that it actually is a constant battle against allowing myself to succumb to those things that you were talking about.

Well, part of it is metacognition, thinking about how you think, taking that step back and analyzing your decision making.

But also, and again, developing that command climate, I mentioned that a few times, but just so important where your staff feel it's their obligation to come to you if something is going off the rails.

But it takes a lot of work and it's a lot of trust and that power differential, especially the general officer rank.

It's hard to overcome with, but with staff.

Is it something that you have to explicitly say?

Like what are some of the ways that you've tried to communicate that with your people?

I have explicitly put it into written direction for close personal staff.

So a command sergeant major, my chief of staff, my executive assistant, aides de camp.

If something doesn't look right, challenge me on it.

And then when they challenge you on it, You've got to be disciplined enough not to bite their head off, to welcome that and thank them.

You actually have to celebrate when people do it, not just bite the side of your cheek and take in all the information.

I'm sure For you, it's a very deliberate thing that you do as well.

I read a book once, I think it was called 5 dysfunctions of a team where.

1 of the practices early on in, in, in taking control of something in sharing a meeting or something is having a, an agent planted who will provide a dissenting comment or challenge you on somebody and setting the climate right up front.

Having people who question, who disagree, loyally disagree, because disagreement is not disloyalty, but just setting that example where it's welcomed.

Sir, that's such great advice across the board when it comes to that.

What I've learned is that climate is not something that it's going to happen whether you are deliberate about it or not.

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General Wayne Eyre- Read, Write, and Lead - From The Green Notebook (1)