Discussion about the types of transformational containers coaches can build with their clients, as well as the process of healing, integrating, and accessing purpose.

Introduction to Thomas Hubel - Introduction to the guest, Thomas Hubel, his background, and his work in deep transformational coaching and facilitation.

Discussion on the role of a coach in embodying knowledge, establishing safe relationships, and being attuned to the client's energy and purpose.

The Individuation Loop - Exploration of the concept of being, becoming, and belonging, and how they shape our lives and development, including the autonomy movement and the restoration of the original movement.

Exploring the shift in coaching practice from aiming for a preordained place to embracing the unfolding process.

Focusing on Trauma and Purpose - Insight into the relationship between working with unintegrated past trauma and the sense of calling, and the importance of addressing both aspects in coaching and transformational processes.

Exploring innovation from bottom up, post-traumatic learning, and the importance of space, digestion, and integration in the healing process.

Innovation and Excitement - Discussing innovation and excitement as a higher place in consciousness and the importance of errors in innovation.

Connecting healing to creating a fertile soil for innovation and the importance of being with what wants to be met in the present moment.

Mature Humanity and Innovation - Highlighting the need for a mature humanity to handle technological advancements and the impact of social media on polarization.

Discussing attunement as the natural state of preserving human rights and right relationship, and the capacity to make the information field visible.

Attuning to Clients and Sensing Emotions - Exploring the process of attuning to clients, sensing emotions, and creating a mutual space for conversation.

Highlighting the importance of attuning to ancestral connections, cultural fields, and the collective nervous system in therapy and coaching.

AI, Emergent Inspiration, and Spiritual Context - Reflecting on the potential of AI in data recombination and the importance of a deep inner connection to a higher spiritual context.

Discussing the impact of individual, ancestral, and collective trauma on society, organizations, and the economy.

Reconnecting with Nature - Exploring the concept of hyper-individualism and the need to shift towards viewing oneself as an integral part of the ecosystem.

- The podcast features Thomas Hubel, a renowned teacher, author, and international facilitator
- Thomas is known for his deep transformational coaching and is an innovator in the field
- The conversation will cover topics from Thomas's recent book, "Attuned," which is recommended reading for coaches
- They will discuss transformational containers, tracking and sensing in coaching, the individuation loop, and coaching from the leading edge
- Thomas emphasizes the importance of being, becoming, and belonging in our personal and professional development

- The flow of information and relationships in an organization affects belonging and effectiveness
- The process of being, becoming, and belonging are fundamental principles in life
- The role of a coach is to embody knowledge and create trust through authenticity
- Attunement and supervision are important in coaching to help clients grow and resolve issues
- The coach helps clients identify their driving force and address any obstacles to growth

- The speaker discusses the need for focusing on both the unintegrated past and the sense of future or purpose in process work
- Trauma splits space-time and creates a sense of urgency, but it is important to work on both trauma and purpose
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of attunement and humility in coaching and transformational processes
- It is important to honor the client's experience, whether it is emotional or rational, and create a safe space for the nervous system to detox by itself

- The speaker emphasizes the importance of honoring and being with the client's experience in coaching
- They discuss the shift away from trying to reach a preordained place in coaching
- The integration of trauma and learning is highlighted, with a focus on innovation and maturity
- Attunement and the ability to feel the client's body and emotions are key aspects of the speaker's approach to coaching

- The speaker emphasizes the importance of asking clients about their feelings as an intervention to induce self-awareness
- They discuss the significance of being in emotional resonance with the client and the impact on the therapeutic relationship
- The speaker highlights the role of fear and how it can affect decision-making and relationships
- They also mention the importance of attunement to cultural and ancestral influences
- The speaker believes that AI may not be able to replicate the level of attunement and intuition needed in this work
- They discuss the practice of attuning to ancestors and teachers, and the impact it can have on relationships
- Overall, the speaker emphasizes the importance of being attuned to the client and the environment in transformational work.

- The speaker discusses the transformative power of reflections and insights in coaching sessions
- They explore the potential of AI in coaching and the importance of spiritual practice in accessing inner knowing
- The speaker emphasizes the interconnectedness of ancestral and cultural energy channels in the body
- They argue for a more collective approach to therapy and coaching, viewing individuals as part of a larger whole

- The speaker discusses the concept of nature being within us, rather than separate from us
- They emphasize the importance of individual and ancestral trauma in shaping our worldview and behavior
- Ancestral work is highlighted as a way to understand and integrate our roots and current state
- The impact of technology, specifically the World Wide Web, on our embodiment and connection to the world is also discussed

The podcast features Thomas Hubel, a renowned teacher, author, and international facilitator, known for his deep transformational coaching. They will discuss topics from Thomas's book "Attuned," emphasizing the importance of being, becoming, and belonging in personal and professional development. The role of a coach in attunement, supervision, trauma, and purpose is highlighted, as well as the importance of emotional resonance and fear in coaching. The speaker also discusses the impact of AI, ancestral influences, and the interconnectedness of ancestral and cultural energy channels in the body.

Welcome back to the Coaches Rising podcast.

I am delighted to be bringing you today's guest, Thomas Hubel.

Thomas is somebody that I have learned so much from in terms of doing deep transformational coaching and I feel is a true innovator and the leading edge of the types of transformational work we can do.

Thomas is a renowned teacher, author and international facilitator.

He's taught and facilitated programs with more than a hundred thousand people worldwide.

He is an executive coach and trainer supporting CEOs, consultants, coaches and leaders in their professional and personal development.

He is the creator of the collective trauma integration process and he's worked with many many groups around the world.

For example, bringing together thousands of Germans and Israelis to acknowledge, face and heal the cultural Shadow Left by the Holocaust.

And today we're gonna be talking about some of the big ideas in Thomas's recent book, Attuned, which I think should be mandatory reading for all coaches.

It's just packed with some really brilliant, powerful distinctions.

In the conversation today, we'll talk about the types of transformational containers we can build with our clients.

Thomas will share in detail what is he tracking and sensing as he's working with groups and individuals that allows him to assist them in healing and integrating and accessing their calling, their sense of purpose.

We'll talk about what Thomas calls the individuation loop and this process of being and becoming And we will get into the necessity for coaches to coach from their leading edge.

How do we know when we've lost it or we've moved away from it and we get comfortable and what kinds of inquiries and questions can we ask to get ourselves back there?

If you feel like leaving a review about the podcast, I would really appreciate that.

It helps us build the following and the podcast itself.

And you can find out more about CoachesRising at coachesrising.com.

Hey, Thomas, it's really good to see you again.

It's been a while actually since we last spoke, so I'm really excited to be with you.

As you said, we didn't see each other for some time and we had regular conversations, So I'm happy to be back and curious.

What I noticed is I'm already excited because, as we just tuned in a little bit before we hit the record button, you were already like hitting some really, exciting kind of spots for me in, in coaching in terms of what moves me.

So, I'm sure we'll get into those things.

And, you know, I just wanna say like your book, Attunement, I think should be mandatory reading for coaches, you know?

So, it's so packed with goodness, you know, and insights and distinct important distinctions that I'm sure we'll get into many of the topics inside of that today.

And then just 1 last thing is like when I'm speaking to you, you're the person which all my friends are like, oh, okay, I want you to ask Thomas this, you know, ask him that question.

So I come in with a couple of, of those questions too.

So, but I think, I think a good place to start is actually ask you, let's say let's lay a foundation for people listening who are less familiar with your work.

So, could you talk about, I mean, you could just talk about your work in general, but maybe the individuation loop, this process of being and becoming in a sense, you know, how you see us as human beings kind of developing.

Yeah, I think we could say that basically also in the wisdom traditions, there are 3 important powers or aspects, however we want to look at it, to understand.

Being is consciousness, but being is also having enough inner space.

So when we are in a reflective moment, when we are sitting with a client, there needs to be a certain amount of being.

If our clients are too stressed out by something, we first need to find a way to create more space that our nervous system activates the part that can reflect better.

Because when we are too stressed or too activated, then our capacity to reflect on our life is very reduced.

So us as also coaches or therapists or facilitators, however we work, our interior and our state of being is key to what we can do with each other.

It's like all the mindfulness-based approaches are based on a certain amount of being.

And that's also when I look at myself, When I go into my own interior process, I need a certain amount of space to be able to look at myself, otherwise I don't see myself.

So being is an important part and my lifestyle as somebody who runs large groups, for example, if I talk about myself, for me to be in a state of being that I can really contemplate the group, contemplate the CEO I'm working with, contemplate whatever is happening is key because that kind of presence is viral.

It has a transmission so it transmits itself.

Stress also transmits itself and When my client is stressed and I'm not centered in my being, the stress of my client might activate my own stress if I carry some inside.

So there's an interference and then I get stressed out that the client doesn't like the session or doesn't get what they need.

So that's why I talk about being as an important part because it's so simple that our complex minds sometimes disregard this a little bit.

Becoming is energy which means information in movement.

And then we see that well-being is being in a movement because how many people come to you and say, hey Joel, I'm in such a flow, I need a session.

Like When people are flowing, it's a sign that things work, that things are unfolding.

Most of the people come to us when they say, here's a pain point, here's a friction, here's something I really need to dive into deep.

I need your help." Which is great because we are supposed to support each other and that's where we come in as professionals to say, okay, let's reflect that back.

So the original movement and in a way we could say healing is the restoration of the original movement and healing is the capacity to build an ecosystem for transformation.

It's an ecosystemic process and it's restoring the original movement of somebody or an organization.

And so, Becoming is a very important drive in our life and also important that that becoming also calls me constantly.

And some people fall a bit asleep in what they built, because it's more safe to say, oh, it works.

And then we fall asleep in the success because we don't listen anymore to the leading edge.

And 1 day we wake up and we feel a bit shallow.

We did it already many times, but it lost the arrows.

Like I wake up every morning, I'm excited about what I'm doing.

If I lose a bit the train, the track of where my train's going, then I fall asleep in what I've produced.

And we see this also with some artists that started off and they were genius in their art, but then the success and the fame and then you listen to the same music after 5 years, 10 years, you don't hear innovation.

So we can talk more later about the commitment to our own becoming.

And Then we say, so being is space, consciousness and awareness becoming is energy.

Information and information creates a form and the form is belonging.

The form is relationship but the form is building an organization, is a form, contributing to social design or social impact is a form.

So we form the world through the information that we bring.

There's an information that keeps my body together.

There's a flow of information that forms my body right now.

When that information is hurt, certain processes don't work anymore.

When in an organization the information flow, the relational information flow is disturbed and when there is a lot of interpersonal frictions and stuff going on, it reduces the formation.

It reduces the belonging but it reduces also how effective we are forming things in the world.

So there is being, space is conscious process, becoming is the process, and belonging is the structure that we build.

And so that can be heard in all different forms and levels in these 3 powers, but these 3 powers kind of create our lives.

These are basic principles in our lives, I believe.

And once we come more in touch with and understand these 3, There's much more to say about it, obviously.

Then I think that's a great foundation for our work.

And when we see, like every child comes from a state of being.

When you look at the baby, see, there's space.

And a baby is, you know, in the first weeks you can really feel the space.

And then there's more and more structure, so how the information that the child is being born with becomes more and more body, grown up and so we can talk about this more.

We call this the individuation loop, how from this freshly born, very spacious awareness we go into really maturing into our maturity.

There's a whole autonomy movement happening.

And so we work a lot with that autonomy movement.

What you just everything you described that we could follow many threads.

Could you say then what you think the role of a coach can be in relationship to what you just described there of this being and becoming and belonging and the kinds of containers that we can create?

First of all, I think for me the deepest role of a coach is that every 1 of us walks our talk.

I believe most of the concepts you can take and trash.

And I say this in a radical way because there is a lot of, okay, we have a lot of knowledge about coaching, but transformation works through our embodiment.

If that knowledge is also how we live and if that knowledge is congruent with how we go about our own lives, then it's not irrelevant.

The difference between knowing and knowing is very important.

So how we embody what we've learned, that what we've learned and read in books and studied becomes actually embodied knowledge.

So when you walk into an organization or when you work with a CEO or with a coachee, then you live, it's stored in you, in the relationship becomes an invitation for the coachee to learn from your nervous system, from your body, from your life.

There is an active transmission of all the things that we can transmit, that we carry inside.

So how we live and how authentic we are and how our word matches our inner state, which we call authenticity, being real, being open, vulnerable, truthful, all this creates trust.

So when we are congruent and our inner congruency is what transmits to the client, trust.

I feel you, like I wrote in the book, attuned.

I feel you feeling me is the next step, is that I'm attuned to my clients.

If I plug into that computer through attunement, then your computer data tells me what I need to know.

So my mirror neurons, my heart, my body, there are different centers in us, in our nervous system that can synchronize with the centers of our coaches or when I run a group I do the same just with a group.

I'm very attuned to my groups and I get the movements in the groups.

I get the movements in the client's body.

I get the movements in your relationship, how you move in and out of relationship.

Every time somebody brings something that's more difficult, like a question that people are working through, there is always a preformed inner state that is not emergent.

When something repeats itself, there is some preformed past.

There is a crystallized past that is unresolved.

So that's why for us, when we work with clients, I think we always work in 2 ways.

I want to be attuned to your becoming, to your purpose, to that which drives you because that gives you a lot of energy and that's a great resource.

And at the same time, I want to be attuned when you tell me, listen Thomas, this and this in my life is a bit difficult for me.

Whenever something's difficult, it's great food for growth.

Instead of something that we want to get rid of, we want to actually bring it.

It's amazing food for growth and every more senior facilitator or coach knows that wherever we hit the edge, we grow and then thousands of our clients grow Because every step we make when we are very connected and we have a good client base and we work with many people, every expansion I go through, everybody benefits from.

And I need to be committed to that so that I have a supervision plan in place that I have a peer-to-peer intervention that I can talk to people and say, listen, in this session I walked away from that session and there was a leftover in me.

These are great moments instead of saying, oh, it was not good, say, great, let's take it, work on it, and then the pair, the couple, like the clients and the coach are growing together because when there was an unconscious process, both are entangled.

The unconscious of both had an entanglement.

When we open it in the coach, The client grows at the same moment.

But it's an amazing process because like this, it can pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, and the systems really grow.

So our own congruency, being able to establish safe relationships, I feel you feeling me, being really attuned and working with seeing, okay, what's your river, what's really driving you and where does that river get stuck?

Where is the expression of your, let's say, your soul's purpose?

Like in the river, you see rocks and then you see water swirling around the rocks.

So some of the energy cannot flow through us and then it gets stuck.

Then we feel physical symptoms, maybe we feel emotional symptoms, we feel relational symptoms, we feel external symptoms that we cannot deal with certain things well and they stay stuck.

So we can resolve this and then the entire system can grow.

And of course, there's so much more to say about this, but this is just, I mean, we could talk for hours.

I mean, There's a couple of things that stand out and I'll name them and see where you take it.

1 is just this difference between knowing and knowing.

I think the invitation being made to the coaching industry, especially in the times where AI is coming in, it's going to replicate a lot of coaching interactions, which are more rational step-based processes.

So this kind of knowing you're talking about where the coach is really in this expanded or deeper space of presence and stillness, congruence attuned on this subtle level, which can leave, can kind of have this feeling of being in flow together, attuned to what is emerging whilst not trying to push to get anywhere, just this sweet spot where there's an embrace and inclusion of what's emerging, which includes both maybe the unintegrated trauma or conditioning of the past, but also this sense of calling.

And it's really stunning kind of sense of what a code, the possibility for coaching.

And so, And so I'm just going to say that and then build on that and then see where you take it.

Something you just said, which I find really interesting, and it's about this relationship between working with the unintegrated past and with our sense of calling.

And could you say a bit more about the need for focusing on 1 or the other or the appropriateness?

Because what I've seen is when people get introduced to process work, often, and I think rightfully so, there's an orientation a lot more towards the unintegrated past, the painful or the shadow parts of us.

And I've often wondered like, oh, could we orient again to that sense of future or the sense of purpose that's calling and even in our times, do we have time for everybody to do the trauma work?

I mean, I'm sure you're gonna give a great answer to this and push back, but is there time for everybody to do their trauma work?

Do we actually need people embodying their calling inside of their imperfected, brokenheartedness?

The interesting thing is that time is a result of trauma.

When we say do we have time to do the trauma work, we are already – because for most of us where we are hurt, Time is split into the past that keeps repeating itself and kind of an imaginary future that is better than what we have now.

So when presence, like presence gets split through the traumatic impact, because traumas is here in space and time when a child gets abused, when there's violence, when all kinds of stuff happens, here in space and time, in this experience, it's not good for me.

So splitting space-time into not here, not now, like putting some defense in place to defend myself against the overwhelm of the pain or whatever I'm going through is absolutely needed.

It's intelligent, but it splits space-time.

So as a result, I cannot be present where I am wounded.

I get activated, I get distant, I get indifferent, I get numb, I get all kinds of the trauma symptoms that we know.

But the traumatic stress of our collective system is not urgency.

And so It will always look like this, that we don't have time for the healing.

Because trauma stress creates an activity that wants to get out of it.

We are living in a world where we leave the world.

And then we say, okay, let's go to Mars and let's build a better life there because anyway, the planet is toast.

We want to go to Mars because we want to explore space.

We want to go to Mars from a healthy base, not from a destroyed base.

Then we become a cosmic virus because we will reproduce the same disaster somewhere else because we take it with us.

So Back to your question, I think we need both.

A good facilitator or coach knows exactly.

Now we need to work on your purpose, where in presence, as Otto Schama says, in the you, the future emerges.

So the future is not a later point in time.

Your purpose is emerging when you are really present, in presence.

And so if I am attuned to you, I get immediately where you need to be supported.

And if that's where we need to work, then we go there.

It's like you go to the apple tree and say, this is a ripe apple, this is a ripe apple, and this not.

I think that's the craft that I see my clients and I know exactly, oh, today we need to work on this.

And then this opens up and unlocks a resource that helps us to work better with the trauma.

And then the trauma opens up some energy that helps us to go to the next level of the purpose.

And attunement, that's why I said before, I'm not critical with rational knowledge when I said most of the knowledge, when it's knowledge, you can take and throw away.

The knowledge is very important, but there is an over-relying often on knowledge when the relationships that we build are sometimes challenging.

So the intellectual knowledge is important.

If I make this my safety, if intellectual knowledge becomes my safe place, then sometimes I elevate myself through being afraid.

I elevate myself a bit into a power position as a coach.

And in fact, good coaching is that I bow down to you.

Your intelligence teaches me, not I teach you.

I might have a lot of knowledge and I might have a lot of experience and I might have seen tens of thousands of clients, but you teach me.

That's the humility to bow down and say, your energy knows everything.

And I'm here maybe to reflect back to you what inside cannot be seen because it's wounded or it's hurt or it can't be accessed at the moment.

So that we can reflect that back to each other and that's different from organizational knowledge.

When I come in and I'm an organizational consultant and I help you to build your organization better so that's a different kind of knowledge.

We are talking now about coaching and transformational processes, not about the knowledge how to create business structures.

That needs a lot of knowledge and there it's amazing.

But in transformational processes, my energy is transformational, your energy with your clients is transformational, not what you know.

And that also leads sometimes to this, because some people try to, okay, how can I get my client to feel something?

If somebody doesn't feel, that's what the person feels.

When somebody is very mental and constantly talking to protect themselves, yes, if you need that, great.

But I will bring this more and more to your awareness that that's what's needed.

But if that annoys me because I don't feel you really and then I get triggered by somebody that keeps me constantly at a distance, then that's my issue.

It's just that the client's defense mechanism works like that.

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Thomas Hübl - The Art of Atunement