An introduction to the podcast with Dan Siegel, discussing the invitation to a new way of viewing the self and the purpose of being alive in the world.

Introduction to the Conversation

Discussion on the mistaken sense of self, the formation of personality, and the realization that the self is not limited to the individual.

The Pandemic of the Solo Self

Exploration of Dan Siegel's upcoming work inspired by Enneagram, the plane of possibility, and the implications for coaching and therapy.

Dan Siegel's Work and Insights

Overview of Dan Siegel's credentials, expertise in interpersonal neurobiology, and his ability to communicate scientific concepts.

Dan Siegel's Background and Expertise

Discussion on the view of the self, the features that define the self, and the mistaken identity of the solo self.

The View of the Self

The impact of a mistaken sense of self on mental health and the unintentional reinforcement of the problem.

Implications for Coaching and Therapy

Exploration of relationships as fundamental, the Enneagram system of personality, and the drive towards wholeness.

Relationship and Interconnectedness

Discussion on the journey towards wholeness, the vectors of agency, bonding, and certainty, and the tendency of attention inward, outward, or both.

The Journey to Wholeness

Exploring the concept of adaptive strategies specific to each of the 9 patterns and the nature of personality as emotions, thinking, and behavior repeating in enduring ways in different contexts.

Understanding Personality Patterns

Discussing the journey to wholeness, the plane of possibility, and the role of personality in obstructing integration.

Exploring the concept of living from the plane of possibility and the responsibility to access it for integration to naturally arise.

Tapping into the Plane of Possibility

Exploring the emergence of integration and healing through allowing experiences to unfold and embracing wholeness.

Integration and Healing

Discussing the concept of emergence in complex systems and the implications of mistaking the part for the whole.

Complex Systems and Emergence

Exploring the balance of differentiation and linkage in complex systems and the role of integration in optimizing self-organization.

Self-Organization and Integration

Discussing the expansion of the identity lens to include wider relationships and the concept of self as both individual and interconnected.

Identity Lens and Self-Expansion

Sharing a story about the interconnectedness of all living beings and the importance of embracing a wider sense of self.

The Essence of Connection

Exploring the concept of states of mind, the verb-like nature of energy flow, and the journey to wholeness through fluidity.

States of Mind and Integration

Embracing uncertainty and allowing love to be the guiding force of life.

Living from the Plane of Possibility

Exploring the concept of love as the fabric of the universe.

The Wheel of Awareness

Becoming a conduit for love to positively impact the world.

Lighting Up the World with Love

Roundup of the conversation and information on accessing further resources.

Conclusion and Where to Find More Information

- The podcast features a conversation with Dan Siegel about a new way of viewing the self and the point of being alive in the world
- They discuss the pandemic of the solo self and the mistaken sense of self that people have
- Dan Siegel is a pioneer in the field of interpersonal neurobiology and has a powerful ability to communicate complicated scientific concepts in accessible ways
- They explore the idea that the self is not limited to the individual and discuss the implications of this mistaken identity on coaching and therapy
- They also discuss the science and indigenous teachings behind this new view of the self and the potential for healing and balance when the mistaken identity is removed.

- The speaker criticizes the field of mental health for defining the self as separate and individual, leading to loneliness and anxiety.
- They discuss their work on the Enneagram of Personality and its connection to wholeness and interconnectedness.
- The speaker and a team of scientists worked on a book that integrates the Enneagram with interpersonal neurobiology, aiming to understand and achieve a sense of wholeness.

- The last two months in the womb lay down memory in the nervous system
- Implicit memory is not tagged as a memory from the past, but has a feeling of familiarity
- The contrast between the womb and the outside world triggers an aspect of temperament
- Most people have a baseline of agency, bonding, or certainty
- The journey to wholeness involves agency, bonding, or certainty, each with a different anatomical location of energy activation
- The drive towards wholeness is always a birthright, but we move away from it as we try to survive in the world
- The tendency of attention to be inward, outward, or both is a key aspect of temperament
- Brain studies have shown that some people have a tendency to shimmer between inward and outward focus

- The speaker discusses how brain studies have shown that different personality patterns have specific adaptive strategies.
- Wholeness is the ultimate goal, and personality can hinder this by keeping individuals from tapping into their potential.
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of accessing the "plane of possibility" and allowing integration to naturally arise.
- Integration leads to a sense of wholeness and mental health, while impairment of integration can lead to chaos or rigidity.
- The concept of self-organization and the balance of differentiation and linkage is crucial for achieving integration and wholeness.

- The shift being discussed is a turning away from the false notion of self as individual
- The identity lens can be widened to include relationships with others and nature
- The goal is to realize that the self is not just the individual, but also the connections with others and nature
- The practice of the Wheel of Awareness can help people feel a deep connection to others and nature
- The ultimate goal is to awaken people from the mistaken identity of the solo self and invite them into a process of waking up to the truth of interconnectedness

- The piece discusses the work of a lifetime in understanding and challenging one's personality
- It emphasizes the need to move away from a fixed, noun-like view of personality and instead see it as a verb-like, fluid process
- It explores the concept of energy flow and the importance of embracing uncertainty and fluidity in order to achieve wholeness
- It also touches on the relationship between internal family systems work and the understanding of states of mind as verb-like processes
- The importance of kindness and acceptance in allowing states of mind to flow is highlighted

- Podcast conversation with Dan Siegel about new view of self and being alive
- Critique of mistaken sense of self and pandemic of solo self
- Dan Siegel's expertise in interpersonal neurobiology and accessible communication
- Exploration of self beyond individual, implications on coaching and therapy
- Science and indigenous teachings behind new view of self and potential for healing
- Criticism of mental health field for defining self as separate and individual
- Work on Enneagram of Personality and connection to wholeness and interconnectedness
- Integration of Enneagram with interpersonal neurobiology for understanding wholeness
- Impact of early experiences on nervous system and temperament
- Drive towards wholeness and different anatomical locations of energy activation
- Tendency of attention and specific adaptive strategies in brain studies
- Importance of accessing "plane of possibility" and natural integration for wholeness
- Concept of self-organization and balance of differentiation and linkage for integration
- Shift away from false notion of self as individual to include connections with others and nature
- Practice of Wheel of Awareness for deep connection and awakening to interconnectedness
- Lifetime work in understanding and challenging personality as fluid process
- Embracing uncertainty and fluidity for energy flow and achieving wholeness
- Relationship between internal family systems work and understanding states of mind
- Emphasis on kindness and acceptance for allowing states of mind to flow

- Dr. Dan Siegel discusses the importance of living from a place of love and possibility
- He mentions the wheel of awareness and how it connects people to love
- He provides websites for more information on his work
- The podcast ends with a reminder to join the mailing list for updates on future content

Dr. Dan Siegel emphasizes living from a place of love and possibility, and discusses the wheel of awareness connecting people to love. He provides websites for more information and encourages joining the mailing list for future updates."""

Welcome back to the Coaches Rising podcast.

This was 1 of my favorite podcasts to record in a long, long time.

I'm going to be speaking with Dan Siegel today.

And this whole conversation for me was a potent invitation into a new way of viewing the self and in some ways what the point of being alive in the world is.

I really wholeheartedly encourage you to listen to this whole podcast.

We're going to talk about the pandemic of the solo self, this mistaken sense of self that we have, and we'll talk about Dan's view of the self and how science is now backing up many of the realizations and insights from contemplative traditions.

We'll talk about the formation of personality and wholeness.

We'll talk about Dan's upcoming work, inspired by his deep exploration with other scientists around the Enneagram and what insights that's led to.

And we'll talk about the plane of possibility, how we can access and rest as this awareness of awareness.

And as we do, that can allow for healing and integration and emergence to take place and lead to this feeling of wholeness.

What's included in this conversation I think has profound implications for the work we do as coaches and the type of coaching that's emerging in the world.

Dan Siegel is a pioneer in the field of interpersonal neurobiology.

He's a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School of Medicine, and the founding co-director of the Mindful Awareness Research Center at the UCLA.

He's also the director of the Mindsight Institute and is a prolific author, the author of numerous articles and many highly acclaimed books such as The Developing Mind, The Mindful Brain, The Whole Brain Child and many other books.

And as you'll find, Dan has a powerful ability to communicate complicated scientific concepts in accessible and provocative ways.

In some ways, this whole conversation to me felt like a pointing out instruction from a contemplative tradition.

So Dan, yeah, it's wonderful to be with you.

Yeah, so much is happening in the world and trying to be present for it.

Yeah, yeah, I think we'll probably weave that into our conversation actually.

And maybe this conversation could be an ode to lovers of integration as we just named as being people who listen to this podcast.

I mean, whether a person is in coaching or in therapy or is the person on the planet trying to figure out how to navigate these challenging times.

I hope our conversation will be of benefit for anyone listening.

So I think a good place to start, let's start on a bigger picture level in the sense of, could you say something about the view of the self that you hold?

I know you write about this pandemic of the solo self and this notion of we and interconnectedness.

I'd love to talk about that and the science behind that too.

And then we can talk about what that means for lovers of integration.

You know, It's kind of a simple idea, but it's an idea that sometimes doesn't come across people's kind of radar.

But it's this four-letter word, self, S-E-L-F.

And it's the notion that however you identify the features that are going to define you.

And those could be, you know, the sensations I have in this body I was born into.

It could be perspective, you know, I'm wearing glasses, you know, through my glasses, through our point of view, or even the agency, how we act on behalf of something.

And those 3 things, sensation, perspective, and agency, they're probably the simplest way of saying what we mean by self.

And identity then would be the features we use to define what that self is, what its boundaries are, what its characteristics are.

And, you know, even our sense of belonging emerges from how we identify the boundaries and characteristics of self.

So it just started becoming clear, here's the simple idea, that in modern times, that word self has been equated with the individual in just some absolutely taken for granted ways.

So we have beautiful terms like self-understanding or self-regulation.

In my field of research, we study self-regulation.

Or in the broader field of contemplative practices.

We have the beautiful work of Kristin Neff in self-compassion.

And these are all great uses of the term self, but they really imply the individual.

And so it's natural in linguistic terms to say, well, yeah, well, self does mean individual.

You know, what are Joel and Dan talking about that they would even question that?

So for me, it just became like, whoa, what if these defining features of your sensation, perspective, and agency didn't have to be limited by the boundary of your skin-in-case body?

Like, could you have a sense, like between you and me right now, Joel, that there's a dyadic, a double, a layering, a pair that comes up, or anyone listening to us, the 3 of us, the listener, Joel, Dan, and then what if it got extended to everyone listening, or everyone interested in integration, like you point out, or all of humanity, or all of nature, then there'd be a sensation to that.

There'd be acting on behalf of all humanity, acting on behalf of all of nature, the agency.

So then it just started becoming like this dawning moment years ago, like what if we've had a case of mistaken identity?

Like what if we define self as the individual and while self is really important, it's not limited to the skin, that it's actually this layering.

We have like an identity lens you can shift.

So then if that were true, that we had a case of mistaken identity, then the question was maybe that's the root cause of so many of the ills that we not only face in modern times, but that we're creating in modern times.

And then the exciting idea is if that's the cause, well, then maybe that's the intervention.

Stop the mistaken identity of self equals individual, which you can just name as the solo self, you know, this self only defined by your skin in case body or bodies that look like yours, you know, that would be like a plural solo self.

Anyway, so that just became an idea that I started just pursuing intellectually, trying to look at the science of that, looking at the indigenous teachings behind it, the contemplative teachings behind it for thousands of years that have been saying that kind of thing.

And science is only catching up to indigenous wisdom and contemplative findings from deep reflective practice, that when you sit alone on a cushion, you come to realize the you that's in the cushion is not the limit of the you that actually exists.

You are, you know, in many ways, the whole of nature.

So that set of conciliant, which means common ground, that conciliant set of findings, the common ground across contemplative teachings from thousands of years in different traditions, indigenous teachings.

So I'm here on the land of the Chumash and the Tongva, where this was the teachings for thousands of years.

And when you look at independent indigenous cultures, they have had the same teaching.

So science is just catching up with this old wisdom.

And at the same time, modern culture tends to, or used to anyway, listen to science.

Now there's kind of a pushing away science.

Oh no, it's just a matter if you're an influencer, that's all that matters.

But I think there's a validity to science offering something to build on indigenous and contemplative invitations from thousands of years ago to say, let's wake up from this nightmare of mistaken identity.

And I think the hopefulness I feel is that if this has been an unidentified fundamental, if you will, like a splinter, then the reason we're limping through life is we have a splinter in the sole of our foot.

Then if we can identify the splinter, which is mistaken identity as a solo self, remove the splinter, then it can heal and we can begin to walk in a beautiful and balanced way.

Yeah, yeah, because I'm thinking about many of the audience and the intention of coaching and therapy and actually so much of the interventions are based upon a view of what the self is.

You know, and if we have actually a mistaken sense of self, then we're, you know, we're maybe playing in a very small territory of what's possible, or maybe we're never going to have the kind of impact that people are actually looking for.

And sadly, there may be, yes, not getting the impact you're looking for.

And number 2, unintentionally reinforcing the problem.

So take, for example, the field of mental health.

I'm not a coach, but I am a mental health practitioner as a psychotherapist, a psychiatrist.

And I think my field, the field of mental health, for the last 100 years has been misguided because they define the self as separate.

And while there have been really great inroads in certain areas, in other areas, there's been absolutely little progress.

And part of that is in the loneliness people feel, and the isolation people feel, and the lack of belonging people feel, and the increased levels of anxiety, depression, drug addiction, suicide.

So, you know, those are indictments about a field of mental health that while it may say, well, we're modern, I think they, me, my field, mental health, we have, you know, based it on exactly what you're saying, Joel.

Let's help the self, the mind of the self get better or get to mental health.

Well, first of all, they don't say what the mind is or mental health, but that being aside, they do define the self as the individual, and that I think is a fundamental, not only error, it's a, and I'll say this, not trying to be hysterical, it's a lethal lie.

Because when people try to live a life living out that statement, because it's wrong, they desperately get on a hedonic treadmill to get more and more and more things to kind of feel good about life, because they've defined the self as the individual.

So the individual has got to get as many toys as possible before that individual dies.

And then you're onto the races of, well, I have a hundred units of things.

Now you get 100,000, I'm still feeling something's wrong.

Now I get a million things, you know, and to get the million things, I have to start producing stuff that you buy.

And if I can get you to buy it, then maybe I can get 10 million things or 100 million or billion things, but I'm getting you to buy all these things for your individual self because you feel this sense of inadequacy, and on and on and on it goes, and that's called the hedonic treadmill.

So you're constantly trying to make up for this feeling of an emptiness inside.

This last book I just finished a couple of days ago is called Personality and Wholeness in Therapy.

It's going to be really interesting when it comes out to have group conversations because it addresses this, you know, and asks people to look deeply at our evolutionary history of how the brain works.

And it's a long story, but it fits with everything we're saying.

It's just an added dimension of the story.

Maybe we could tease that idea out a little bit more because it seems like there's a shift in worldview taking, and I hear that in what you're saying, from atomizing the self, a world of parts, fixed parts that are in isolation in some sense and can lead to this sense of disconnectedness and loneliness you're talking about.

And I hear people talking about how relationships could be seen as being more fundamental than the parts themselves.

And so I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about relationship and the sense of interconnectedness and how that might relate to wholeness as well.

Because my sense is there's a sense of well-being that can come from entering into wholeness, not just as an idea, but as a felt experience where suddenly we feel satisfied on a level and we can connect on a level.

I mean, I'm open to how we're made in formation with others in a way that's kind of quite profoundly different.

So, yeah, I'll just let you take that where you feel like taking it.

I mean, it's so interesting because we have a couple of things that have become very active, I think, in people's minds.

1 is, as you're pointing out, the idea of parts and Dick Schwartz's wonderful work in internal family systems that we can talk about.

The other is something that's existed longer than that, which is the Enneagram system of personality.

The Enneagram of personality builds on this mathematical and philosophical notion of these 9 points on a figure.

But then Ochoauso and Naranjo created this system of personality applying the Enneagram to that.

So I'll just use the word Enneagram, meaning the Enneagram of Personality.

And I learned about that about 20 years ago, actually, and it seemed both intriguing and a little daunting because there was a whole mystical world behind it.

So that journey involved me getting to know 4 other science-trained people who were also interested in the Enneagram.

1 of them was a major teacher, David Daniels, and it was with Denise Daniels, his daughter, Laura Baker, her colleague at USC, and Jack Killen, who was at the National Institute of Health.

So the 5 of us for 20 years on and off were working together until David died in 2017.

But once he passed, at his funeral, actually, 1 of the leaders in the Enneagram world came up to us and said, so are you going to let this project you've been working on die because David died?

We looked at each other, we said, well, we have to.

We wrote a chapter in a book about this, but he's gone.

She kind of looked at us with these very compelling eyes that Helen Palmer has.

And anyway, so we said, OK, well, let's see what we can do.

So we spent the last 5 years, actually, now it's really 6 years since then, or more actually, 7 years, getting this book together and we just submitted it.

And it'll be out next November, this coming November.

So I just say all that to say that, you know, as a scientist, participating with these other scientists was really interesting because we took on the whole world of the Enneagram from a science lens, which the Enneagram is not.

But we think there's something really powerful in the Enneagram of personalities.

We had 50,000 narratives that David had accumulated through an organization called the Narrative Enneagram.

So we had access to all that data, which was really cool.

And then the other thing we had was this whole field of interpersonal neurobiology, which I work in, where we have dozens and dozens of textbooks.

And we have all the science about how the brain and relationships interact to shape who we are, and some of my own books as well.

So there was this rich, empirical, science-based view of development that we then tried to see if there was anything that correlated with the Enneagram of personality.

And we searched this way, that way, this way, that way, nothing seemed to work.

And then we found it, something we think works.

Now, it could be completely wrong, but at least it matches completely with these thousands of narratives we have.

So then we put it together in a book and I was at the helm of finalizing that whole way of translating these ideas into language.

And what is interesting about it is we took on the word that you're bringing up, wholeness.

And we were nervous about it because, you know, people can use that word in lots of different ways.

So, we really wanted to come to the linguistic term wholeness in as scientifically grounded a way as we could.

So we spent a lot of time thinking about it, reflecting on it, playing with wording, and ultimately, you know, the way I wrote it up in the book is it has the feeling of wholeness, has the feeling of completion, it has a feeling of being connected, it has a feeling of being coherent, it has a contentment to it underneath wholeness, and it also related to consciousness, it has an experience of presence of this open, spacious capacity to hold in awareness whatever's arising, all those features being ways of describing it.

So in that sense, it's an ease of being that in some ways, everyone is on a lifelong journey to try to, and you can use a verb either, try to achieve, or you can use a verb like get back to.

There's a whole model, which I don't know if you want to get into it, Joel, but it's a model that basically, whether you're talking about the Big Bang before anything existed, there was just potentiality, or more recently when you're in the womb, you were just hanging out in the womb.

There was no separation between you and the womb.

So you're in that sense at 1 with the womb and you didn't have to do anything.

All the nutrients you needed came through your umbilical cord.

You didn't have to breathe, you didn't have to eat, you didn't have to make sure someone was protecting you.

You were just being, and that simply being state gets embedded in something called implicit memory.

So, the last 2 months in the womb, You're laying down memory in the nervous system, so you're encoding it, you're storing it.

And the thing about implicit memory that's fascinating is when you retrieve it later on, it is not tagged as I'm remembering something from the past.

It just has a feeling of familiarity, which is a really important research finding about implicit memory in its pure form.

So we think everyone's got basically an implicit memory in its pure form of wholeness.

And when you come out of the womb, however you get out of the womb, now you're out, it's so different.

And not only is it different, but you've got to work for a living or you're going to basically die.

You have to be protected by other people that you have to depend on or you die.

And that's actually pretty much true throughout life.

So this do or die, working for a living setup is a huge contrast to just simply being whole and just being at 1 with the womb.

So our view is that triggers an aspect of temperament that can go along the lines of, if you remember ABC, 1 system beneath the cortex, the subcortical area is for agency.

Another is for bonding and another is for certainty.

Some people may be a little more sensitive in 1 of those areas, but a small sensitivity at the beginning can lead a certain network to get a little more active.

As it gets a little more active, let's say by a week of life, it's now in its activity strengthening its own sensitivity.

And then by a month, it's like even more.

So there's a reason to think that most of us, at least from our research so far, seem to have 1 of these 3 vectors, we call them agency, bonding, or certainty, as their jam, where they go to, their baseline.

There may be a small percentage, 10% maybe, where they're equally distributed.

And that certainly physiologically makes sense that there would be some people like that.

But the vast majority, somewhere between 70% and 90% can locate themselves in 1 of these 3.

So that being said, then you have a search for wholeness that involves agency, trying to really deal with the issues of your body and having this oomph coming from the gut, this kind of we call it an alief, anatomical location of energy activation and flow, the newest acronym to put in the list.

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Coaches Rising - Episode 192 - Dan Siegel & The Pandemic of the Solo Self