When Esther first met with them two years ago, they’d recently opened up the marriage. At the time only she had ventured out, and after a lifetime of feeling her sexuality wasn’t her own, she felt an awakening. But at what expense? Her newfound freedom seemed to result in his misery. This time around, they are both exploring elsewhere, but the subject of their non-monogamy takes a backseat to other foundational stories within their marriage.
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None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel.

Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session.

For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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We didn't believe in setting fires because that was too dangerous.

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And she comes along and says, hey, I want to come ride you now.

And maybe I'm your favorite horse, right?

When I first met this couple a few years ago, their initial request was for me to help them have a more productive conversation about opening up their relationship.

It had always been in the back of my mind.

It started with just going, I wonder what it'd be like to kiss other people.

It feels like there's this cap on my happiness.

I'm 6 months into a new job and my boss can give me a great review and say I'm randomly gonna give you a raise and you're doing really good work and I get really proud of myself.

I think, oh but my wife sleeps with other men.

There's a little thought of what kind of man lets his wife do this.

She had always experienced her sexuality as belonging first to India, where she was from, to her family, to the church where she grew up in, and now to marriage.

It was other people's rules, other people's definitions that shaped everything.

And she sought emancipation and reclamation of her own sexuality.

Having been with other men actually opened up and unleashed in her a desire and an energy, an erotic energy that she brought to her husband.

He understood what she was saying, but he really wanted to know if what she wanted was for him to be the stable force while she was going and being with the other men.

I guess there's a lot of questions that come with it.

Do you need me to watch the kids while you go with the other guys?

What I need you to do is to trust that it's not freedom without you.

The freedom isn't to leave you and pursue others.

It's to hold your hand while I get to experience more.

She's been trying to say this for a while.

That doesn't mean to take away the jealousy

But you also want to hear what she just told you.

I'm seeing them a few years later now and I'm very curious how did this work out?

It used to be a one-sided non-monogamy or polyamory.

But also more importantly, this was presented as the central focus of their concerns at that time.

And I'm not so sure that this is really the only thing that deserves to be in the center.

And the more I listen, and the more I become clear that there's a whole other range of issues here that are directly related to their experience around sexuality, consensual non-monogamy, and polyamory.

Many times I end a session and then time passes and I say, what happened to them?

Well, it was, I think what resonated in the moment is the same thing that resonates still for me now.

And I just felt really validated because I felt a lot of guilt before associated with struggling with opening up the marriage.

Esther says it's okay for me to be feeling what I'm feeling and to go through what I'm going through.

The message that I see a lot in the polyamory community is is compulsion.

In contrast to to jealousy and insecurity.

And and the term I see a lot is toxic monogamy.

Like if you don't have compersion, then you have toxic monogamy.

Meaning there is toxicity and then there is monogamy and not all monogamy is toxic and feelings of jealousy are not unusual even with people who have compersion at times too and we can use words that have meaning but we don't need to trap you in some of the limiting meanings that those words at times have.

When people choose monogamy or polyamory or any form of consensual non-monogamy, today, in our corners of the world, in the West, these are choices, these are relational arrangements.

When they become ideologies that justify themselves by discarding and trashing the other side, so that it becomes non-monogamy, never works, or monogamy attached with the word toxic.

We really lose what is going on in a relationship that is trying to go through a major transition such as this couple.

And you say, is my jealousy an expression of what you read is called toxic monogamy?

Codependency and jealousy and- Ownership.

I didn't even hear you say, I'm justified, I'm legitimate, I deserve, I'm entitled.

You just said, this is how this lands on me.

And I think that is quite honest and real.

It's always made sense that if you do something wrong, then you're at fault.

But accountability, responsibility, and blame are not all 1 and the same.

When you take responsibility and you express guilt, that doesn't translate into shame.

I don't know how to recognize a mistake without feeling shame for it.

And I asked you, where did you learn that?

And I don't remember it ever not being a part of my code.

While I theoretically know everyone makes mistakes, when I make a mistake, it feels worse.

Yes, because I don't just say, I did something wrong.

Do you think it ties back into your peacekeeping, conflict avoidant?

And the easiest disruptor of my peace, of peace, is conflict with someone that I care about, with anyone that I care about.

How does a conflict come up if we don't talk about it?

It's your sister feeling like we don't welcome her enough to the house, so she's going to skip the kid's birthday party.

It's your mother sending us a letter 10 years after an incident venting about it.

to whack it down and then it goes away for a while and everyone says, there's no conflict here at all.

And for someone like me, I come in and I see the conflict.

Because we clearly have issues, but there's absolutely no path to resolution.

But you find peace with that as long as no one's talking about it.

Yeah, you, I remember you'd be having a day where it was, something was weighing on you about the whole thing.

And I would look at you and I knew something was wrong.

And so I would start getting panicked, like, oh my gosh, okay, what do I do?

And so I would ask you how I could help and how I could support, and you would tell me.

And you would, sometimes it was, I need an hour in the hot tub with my laptop and a movie, and I'll figure it out and I'll let you know.

And watching him out there while I'm inside going, what do I do, what do I do?

Like I couldn't rely on all the tips and tricks and you know, just try to be better and make him happier.

I have spent our whole marriage, I mean for 15 years, The entire time I have felt this burden, this backpack that I've been carrying around and didn't realize where it was my job as the good wife to make sure my husband was fulfilled.

And the difficulty in that is my husband didn't always know what he needed to be fulfilled.

That phrase, I can't be who you need me to be, has been a soundtrack for the past 15 years and I didn't recognize it.

I had a picture of someone who enjoyed all the same hobbies he does.

And I was always on and pleasurable and sexy and kept everything together.

And it was never something he directly communicated to me.

But those messages come through in disappointment.

So it was almost a passive roundabout way of how I interpreted that message.

It would be his disappointment that date nights weren't fun enough.

It would be his disappointment that sex wasn't enough.

But I am currently the only 1 with an active relationship.

We have a home, we have children, and we build life together.

But as values, he is not more valuable than another person in my life.

He's my best friend and that friendship is still the most important thing to me.

It becomes clear that in the past 2 years, the structure of the relationship has shifted from them as the primary partners to a more lateral model in which they are co-parenting and they have history and shared financial responsibilities, but there are other partners that she has that are on equal level with him.

At this point, I'm kind of putting pieces together, right?

So you said, while he doesn't get angry much, much, 1 of the ways he gets my attention is by actually going disappointed, sad, solemn.

And you feel responsible to regulate if he's upset or disappointed Or do you mope?

There's another word in English, you pout.

So she gave the example of the date night wasn't good enough.

We go out and I didn't have enough fun in my head.

So I go home and go do something fun myself to fill the fun tank.

He likes having a lot of stimulation and a lot going on.

And when it's our date night, when we've said, okay, we're going to do Thursdays or Fridays or whatever the date nights are for that week, it is an immediate source of stress for me.

Because is he going to end up disappointed like every other date night if I don't find the energy reserves to...

And it's more disappointing because you say she has a better time elsewhere, or I can see her be more intentional elsewhere, or she brings more energy to the other person.

So I think a concrete example might be, okay, Thursday is our date night.

And what will happen is let's watch a show in bed.

That's because you prefer that with Everybody.

And those date nights become ways to prove we still are important, we still are special, we still, what?

Care, we're still intentional, we're still invested.

And that proving point has its own fatigue.

I have to prove that I am entertaining enough that he wants to spend that time with me.

See all Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel transcripts on Applepodcasts

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