We first met them three seasons ago in the painful aftermath of an infidelity. She was diagnosed with an STD during a routine visit to her OBGYN, leading to the revelation that her husband had been visiting sex workers. Four years later, they’re still together, but old wounds persist.

Transcripts for this episode are available at https://www.estherperel.com/podcasts/wswb-s5-episode10.
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None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel.

Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session.

For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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We didn't believe in setting fires because that was too dangerous.

We were, you know, a kind of gentler kind of crooks, so to speak.

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I went in for a checkup and they saw something and they tested it and said, yeah, by the way, the doctor who delivered both our kids sat there telling me this.

It was 1 of the worst possible ways of finding out, but I was relieved in a sense.

The discovery of an affair or of infidelities is often dramatic, But this 1 had a particular sting to it.

Here she was, a sex educator herself, going for her routine checkup and finding out that she's having an STI.

An STI that he passed on to her from months of going to massage parlors with a happy ending.

in season 2, and the title of that episode is I've had a hundred conversations with you in my head.

Because you don't know what it's like to have difficult thoughts and feelings and lean on him.

My goal for that, I originally started that with only 1 thing in mind.

Because you see, right now, you're in the betrayal.

What you've just added is how much he had tried to bring you.

And he was invested in maintaining an erotic energy between the 2 of you.

And when you start to get those images, that's the stuff you need to think about.

Therapy is an endeavor that is often conducted without knowing what is the customer satisfaction.

We don't really know how all of this is going to metabolize over the years.

To come back to couples, especially couples who've stayed together, and to be able to distill with them what was the impact of this affair on them over time?

What is the meaning that they've given to it?

And what do they still grapple with at this point is an unusual opportunity that I was very much looking forward to.

Tell me, I mean, what was it, 2, 3 years ago?

So I, you know, we met at such a turning point, such a crucial moment in your relationship.

And we have no way even of knowing when we reach out, if you're together, where you're at, what's the story?

So the 1 particular thing I just remember her saying after that session with you, was that for the first time, you gave her hope.

You gave her hope for what we can still be.

I mean, I was always hopeful, but It didn't look good.

It was important, you know, because at that time, I needed to borrow someone's hope.

And I think you tried to help us in that session have something to hold on to, to build from.

For me, I know 1 of the things you said was for me to work through the traumatic episodes.

Not the traumatic episodes, but rather The reoccurring flashbacks of the traumatic episodes was for me to lean into what he tried to do for our relationship.

And to remember those things just as much and not only remember the painful parts.

There was a lot of PTSD moments throughout the years, even to this day.

There's certain time periods of the year, let's say for instance, when our anniversary of our marriage, it always flares up around that time because we start thinking about the marriage that was.

You each retreat, you go silent, or you kind of say it's 1 of those days and you make it overt and you acknowledge it and you normalize it?

I know at first, you know, as it approaches, you kind of like, oh, okay, I'm gonna have to deal with it.

You know, we have a good cry session, usually, right, you would say?

You know, for me, it still happens, but it doesn't last.

It's part of my story, it's part of my life.

At most, it lasts a couple of days and then I move on.

You know, when I wrote State of Affairs, I had this sense that over time, people can metabolize these experiences in kind of 3 major directions.

They regurgitate and it comes back all the time and they know at that bone and they can't move forward and they can't establish any new trust or joy or significance.

And then another group that I taught were survivors and they kind of put it on the side, They tried to talk about it the least possible.

They saw it as a terrible crisis that they had overcome.

And they tried everything to kind of restabilize themselves.

And then a third group that I called the Transformers or something like that.

And the idea was that those were people who often said, this was 1 of the worst times in our life, but it actually changed us.

Not that we wanted this, but we actually managed to do something with this that put us in a different place and we are stronger or happier or more connected after it.

I don't think that our relationship, the way it was, was sustainable.

I think a lot of the difficulties that we went through in our life, I think it was inevitable that we were just going to collapse in some way.

And if it wasn't for this, we would never have gone into therapy.

And we've been doing that for the last 4 years.

And slowly, 45 minutes at a time, once a week, I find that she has helped us move closer and closer to where we can finally work together on some things that can shift our relationship.

Give me 1 note that you're trying to untie.

So I'll tell you something that I figured out the other day.

I said, you know what I'm realizing is that every time we get ready for dinner or something, a special occasion, And it requires me to get dressed and I get pretty and I take time for myself to do those things.

I'm very uncomfortable doing that in front of him.

Whereas that was never the case before, I think.

What is the gaze that you imagine from him?

I feel so vulnerable in that moment, for me to be naked in front of him.

There's something there that makes me feel unsafe.

That he can hurt me so deeply by having unprotected sex and giving me an STI and me not knowing.

So I think I fear his decision making and his...

All in the while, I really also wish that I could lean towards him and embrace that moment, to be with him in that moment, because it was always a time when we feel joy in each other's sexual attraction that we have for each other.

It's sort of a barrier that she establishes in so many ways where In the beginning I had to learn to be okay with that Because I understood my role but at the same time I've been going to therapy for 4 years because I have issues with my esteem and issues with my feeling of rejection.

But through therapy, I've learned that when she puts up that wall, I know that it's due to the PTSD that she's going through or whatever she went through.

You know, I still struggle with it because I do want to be close to her.

Like, nothing has ever changed for me when it comes to that.

But it's still hard to always be the person that if we are going to have any type of intimacy, it's got to be initiated by me.

That's interesting because you said the reverse back then.

Well now, if they're right, because if I leave it up to her, it could go weeks and months.

And even when she does welcome me, sometimes...

Sometimes she welcomes me fully, sometimes she doesn't welcome me fully.

There's some awkward situations there still.

A typical, like, let's say a day, I don't know, a few days ago, you know, we were in bed and I wanted to initiate something, but I get the sense from her that, but what I was told.

the sense from her that she was not going to or into it.

Or she wants to be sure that you are really into it.

So we've spoken about that where I'm like, listen, I would prefer you say, you know what?

I don't feel well now, or I'm just not into it, than just to leave me there with my own thoughts.

And your own thoughts still go always in the same corner?

They go to a better place, I want to say.

It's not that she doesn't want you, it's that she doesn't want it right now.

I remember feeling, because I remember when you said during the session, can you hold her?

You said, do you ever lean on each other?

And that was so important because guess how many times I did not lean and sat there thinking, Do I want to lean?

And the answer was, boy, look at me holding back from leaning.

And what often happens is I don't feel that you're able to hold when I lean into you.

So for example, with the sex in bed, I don't know that he wants it.

It doesn't come across to me that he's confident in his wanting.

And that makes it very difficult for me to move into it if I feel it.

Or to explore it if I don't feel it yet, but I'm looking to explore it to then see if, what if.

And I feel that he is always, maybe I'm projecting.

He's waiting for affirmation from you, and you are waiting for

Now what happens here is that so often when he approaches her, He doesn't approach her from the place that is very clear and confident and says, I want you.

He approaches her from the place that says, I want you.

And what she answers is a very common response I have heard many times from female partners, which is nothing actually would turn me on more than your confidence, that you won't get instantly thwarted, that I don't have to reassure you, that I don't have to take care of you, that I know what you want and what you want is me, and therefore I can let go.

And I particularly can let go of the burden of responsibility and the burden of caretaking that is often such a powerful anti-aphrodisiac for women.

And so to say to him, what if she doesn't know what she wants, but what she enjoys is for you to gradually guide her into her wanting, into her desire.

What she also experiences is that his desire went elsewhere.

And 1 of the long-term needs after betrayal and an affair or infidelities is the need to be continuously reconfirmed as the subject of desire.

And it's all these dynamics of the erotic recovery that follows infidelities over time that they are grappling with at this moment.

I want them to have the opportunity to experience this dynamic in an embodied way.

And so I designed a little exercise for them, whereby I placed them both at 2 sides of the room.

And 1 partner is to invite the other partner to come over to them.

But they can only use gesture, their face, their body.

And it is very important to understand that before people initiate, there is an invitation.

It is that invitation that we are exploring at this moment.

So I ask him to invite her to come over to him.

Okay, I need you to come here and I need you to go there.

I would like you to invite her to come over to you.

And I want you to go and walk over to him, if you want, when you want, and as far as you want.

And when you stop, you just say, this is it, for now.

You started with big motions, big gestures, come on, come over, come over.

And then you stayed put with your hands out.

And how am I feeling as I am saying come?

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I've Had 100 Conversations With You In My Head, Part 2