- The Real Maxime podcast features Adam Gurin, founder and CIO of Hunting Hill global capital
- Adam's hedge fund business faced challenges during the crypto winter but he remained resilient
- Hunting Hill Digital partnered with the Investment Fund for Foundations to provide exposure to cryptocurrencies
- Adam has a background in finance and entrepreneurship, with experience in portfolio management and trading
- He also has a successful background in soccer and was part of the U.S. Men's National Team
- Adam's family history and education helped shape his understanding of money and risk management
- He focused on soccer during his teen years and eventually played for the national team
- He attended Duke University for academics and soccer.

- The speaker played soccer in college but realized it would be difficult to have a professional career in it, so they studied economics and sociology instead.
- They were interested in studying behavioral finance, which wasn't offered at the time, so they created their own version of it.
- They developed a strong foundation in behavioral finance at Duke University, which now offers a behavioral finance major.
- The speaker believes that being an athlete taught them skills like resilience, persistence, and the ability to focus on a goal.
- They started dabbling in the options market in college and pursued a career in finance after playing semi-pro soccer.
- The speaker gained experience in trading and risk management at a startup hedge fund and a proprietary trading company.
- They learned complex instruments and developed insights into the impact of the derivative market on prices.
- The speaker pushed to join the International Desk at First New York, where they further developed their skills and understanding of global markets.

- The speaker learned about derivatives, specifically ADRs, at First New York and used statistical trading models to determine fair value and identify opportunities for buying or selling.
- They applied this trading approach to different derivatives, including ETFs and futures, and had success.
- Risk management is important in convergence trades, where the market is not reflecting fair value between an underlying asset and its derivative.
- Forced convergence can lead to tighter spreads, but there can still be time and balance sheet risks.
- In cases of no forced convergence, risk management is crucial, and scenario analysis is used to determine potential worst-case scenarios.
- The speaker felt they had enough expertise and track record to start their own hedge fund after learning and trading at a proprietary trading shop.

The speaker discusses their experience of starting their own hedge fund, Hunting Hill, after leaving their previous firm. They had support from friends and family, as well as a mentor from their previous company. They had to prove themselves and build a track record before institutional investors would consider investing. The speaker emphasizes the importance of convincing others and taking risks in entrepreneurship. They also discuss the challenges of fund formation and the need to keep expenses low. Overall, they learned from their mistakes and gained a better understanding of the business and operational aspects of trading.

- The speaker discusses the importance of understanding capital, margin, and balance sheet in managing risk and running a business.
- They mention the challenges of transitioning from the sell side to the buy side in trading.
- The speaker explains their entry into the crypto space through an ETF and closed-end fund strategy.
- They describe their initial trades involving GBTC and the need to hedge and be more efficient with capital.
- The speaker emphasizes their focus on capturing complexity premium and looking for mispriced assets in investment trusts, liquid digital assets, and distressed markets.
- They mention their use of automation in trading but clarify that they have full discretion in decision-making.
- The speaker highlights the potential for technology to improve the institutional investor experience in the crypto space.
- They acknowledge the need to stay knowledgeable about blockchain developments for their investment business to remain relevant.
- The speaker acknowledges the uncertainty and speculative nature of the crypto market and the debate over whether it should be considered an asset class.

- The speaker believes that Bitcoin is here to stay and there is institutional appetite for it.
- There is a debate about whether trading will be limited to stocks, derivatives, and bonds in tokenized form in the future or if there will be new types of assets.
- The speaker's thesis is that there will be more practical use cases for blockchain technology and digital assets in everyday life globally.
- They have three pillars for investing: buying distressed assets, getting exposure to liquid tokens, and focusing on consumer brands and servicing loyalty programs and NFTs.
- The speaker believes that the ownership economy is a real thing and that blockchain technology will change the way people engage with brands.
- There has been a lack of deep liquidity in certain instruments, but it has started to come back recently.
- There is currently a lack of leverage in the digital assets space, which the speaker sees as a healthy process.
- The speaker believes they would be able to deploy a billion dollars to manage, depending on the mandate and flexibility.

- The speaker acknowledges the credibility and hard work of the person they are speaking to in the crypto industry.
- They believe that positioning oneself in the market cycle at this stage can lead to significant competitive advantage.
- They admire the person's persistence and ability to manage risk, which will be valuable to investors.
- They mention that larger institutions may return to the asset class just as the person is gaining traction.
- The person being spoken to appreciates the support and looks forward to continuing their progress.

- Adam Gurin, founder and CIO of Hunting Hill global capital, faced challenges in his hedge fund business during the crypto winter but remained resilient.
- Hunting Hill Digital partnered with the Investment Fund for Foundations to provide exposure to cryptocurrencies.
- Adam has a background in finance and entrepreneurship, with experience in portfolio management and trading.
- He also has a successful background in soccer and was part of the U.S. Men's National Team.
- Adam's family history and education shaped his understanding of money and risk management.
- He attended Duke University for academics and soccer, studying economics and sociology.
- The speaker gained experience in trading and risk management at various financial institutions.
- They started their own hedge fund, Hunting Hill, and had to prove themselves and build a track record before institutional investors would consider investing.
- They emphasize the importance of convincing others and taking risks in entrepreneurship.
- The speaker discusses their entry into the crypto space through an ETF and closed-end fund strategy.
- They focus on capturing complexity premium and looking for mispriced assets in investment trusts, liquid digital assets, and distressed markets.
- The speaker believes that blockchain technology will change the way people engage with brands and sees potential in the ownership economy.
- They acknowledge the uncertainty and speculative nature of the crypto market but believe Bitcoin is here to stay.
- The speaker has three pillars for investing: buying distressed assets, getting exposure to liquid tokens, and focusing on consumer brands and servicing loyalty programs and NFTs.
- They mention the lack of deep liquidity in certain instruments but note that it has started to come back recently.
- The speaker believes they would be able to manage a billion dollars, depending on the mandate and flexibility.
- They admire the person they are speaking to in the crypto industry and believe their persistence and risk management skills will be valuable to investors.

In this episode, we are joined by Adam Guren, Founder and CIO of Hunting Hill Global Capital, an alternative asset manager specializing in identifying global arbitrage opportunities in complex and emerging asset classes, including cryptocurrencies. Its affiliate Hunting Hill Digital provides investors access to digital assets through a customizable and scalable multi-strat platform. Adam is unique in how he thinks about the design, implementation and risk-management of sophisticated trading strategies. Tune in to hear more about Adam’s journey as a hedge fund founder and exceptional trader, from competing on the US Men’s National Soccer Team to becoming his firm’s youngest partner.

Hello and welcome to the Real Maxime podcast.

I'm an economist, former tech entrepreneur, hedge fund founder, private investor.

It takes a very special kind of entrepreneur to start a hedge fund business.

Very few are able to get it off the ground.

It takes an even more resilient manager to try and raise money for an investable digital asset product during a crypto winter.

Adam Gurin, founder and CIO of Hunting Hill global capital has that resilience.

To put things broadly in perspective, new hedge fund launches in Q3 2022, when I first met Adam, were at their lowest since 2008.

It's no surprise when collectively, hedge funds lost more than $200 billion in 2022.

At the time, fees fell to their lowest since the financial crisis and annual redemptions were on track to hit an all-time high.

When speaking to Adam, some of his core traits become abundantly clear.

His mastery of the tenets of money and risk management and a composure, 1 would say confidence, that comes with having competed in a high-performance sport, whether it's soccer or trading.

It was evident from our first conversations that Adam has a clear understanding of how to design, implement, and risk-manage sophisticated trading strategies, and an unwavering commitment towards positioning himself for the next leg up in digital asset markets.

In May of 2023, Hunting Hill Global Capital announced that its affiliate, Hunting Hill Digital, is partnering with the Investment Fund for Foundations as an anchor to provide institutional investors with exposure to an actively managed strategy focused on the top 25 cryptocurrencies by market cap, liquidity, and performance.

Adam is a seasoned fund manager, which we want to see more of in crypto markets.

Before launching his first fund back in 2012, he managed a global event-driven arbitrage portfolio at First New York Securities, investing in ETF arbitrage, cross-border and merger arbitrage, corporate actions, and other special situations.

In 2007, he became a partner at the age of 26, then the youngest partner in the firm's history.

In 2008, based on his track record, Adam was named to Trader Monthly Magazine's Top 30 Traders Under 30 list.

Adam obtained his MBA from Wharton with a focus on entrepreneurial management and holds a BA in economics from Duke University.

Adam has also enjoyed success on the soccer pitch as a member of the top-ranked Duke Blue Devils varsity squad, professionally for the Columbus Crew and Cleveland force organizations, and with the U.S.

I grew up outside of Cleveland, Ohio, in a small town.

It's actually in rural Ohio, in a town called Huntsburg.

And I grew up on a farm and it was my family, which is I have an older sister, younger brother and my parents.

And it was a family farm about 100 acres, pretty rural and unique for sure.

I was there until I was about 12 years old and then moved towards Cleveland and suburbs near the big city at the time when I was about 12 years old.

So I think for me, a happy time when I was growing up, living on the farm, and it was a unique experience for sure.

So When you were growing up, did you have any inkling as to what you would end up wanting to do later in life?

Did you exhibit any sort of initiatives or maybe an entrepreneurial bent at the time?

I mean, you know, I always refer to, I know it's a little corny, you know, the lemonade stand.

And believe it or not, actually, some guests actually did that as children.

But you know what I'm saying, it's more, were there any sort of tendencies at the time or did this manifest later in life?

I think when I was younger, I went to a Montessori school and for those that don't know what it's relatively progressive education, and I think that 1 of the key attributes that I've learned from coming out of that school was to be open to learning new things.

So almost like the learning to learn throughout life.

And I think that's a pretty important aspect of being an entrepreneur, being someone that wants to adjust and change to different markets and different aspects of life.

Additionally, I had some called family history in entrepreneurship.

My grandfather started an insurance company, which my uncle had taken over.

So when I was growing up, that was just part of my family history of starting businesses.

And what's interesting about the insurance business in particular is beyond the selling of insurance, there's a big heavy portion of portfolio management.

So if you have a bunch of liabilities or potential liabilities for paying out claims.

You have obviously premiums that come in, you have to manage the cashflow, you have to manage the balance sheet and the risk.

And so I think growing up, there was also a component of learning that about my family and the family business.

So those 2 things sort of combine into, for me at least, an entrepreneurial type of personality that is looking to manage risk, manage a portfolio, and try to do the right thing for investors and stakeholders that are at play.

Was there a sense of drawing from what you just said?

What was your exposure overall to, I'd say, financial acumen and the skill of understanding things of money, right?

How money grows, how you can lose it, so understand risk return.

I'm asking this because I think in some families it's ingrained from the start under the premise or under the assumption that there is some of that understanding, be it professional, academic, or just common sense.

And I think in other families, it may not be par for the course.

And I do think that as you enter the workforce and just the real world, you're definitely going to be at a disadvantage if you don't understand, as I like to label them, the things of money or like how money works.

I'll say this from a personal experience.

I came from an engineering family, a lineage of engineers, but it always struck me that the engineering mindset was really, never really applied, nor was it part of conversations, was money or economics or markets or just the lingo, but also the thinking, and was never a part of the dinner table conversation or any conversation for the most.

So I gravitated towards econ and finance as the first person in my family to choose that path other than engineering school to continue studying math and physics because of that, because I felt a need to further my understanding, but also I happened to have a natural talent at math and I saw that I could apply to economics and finance.

I think that from my perspective, my family, because of the family business and the nature of it, it was a bit ingrained in our generation and the generation after ours that it's important to be a steward of capital for not just the family, but there's a couple of different family foundations that I'm a part of, and there's other members of my family that are a big part of.

And so the process of joining that family foundation is really understanding what the family business is, where some of the wealth had come from, how to be, like I said, stewards of that capital.

And I think that translates, at least for me, professionally is to be a good fiduciary and understand what that means for not just our investors, but employees and folks that are involved in the company as stakeholders.

And so, yeah, I think very early on in my upbringing, as well as sort of formative years in high school and college.

That was a pretty healthy part of my understanding about money, where money comes from, how it's used, how it's compounded, how it can be invested, how to manage risk.

All of those things were the foundation I guess for me on launching my own business and kind of continuing through my career as it's been.

So what kind of studies did you find yourself gravitating towards as you sort of, where were your interests, let's say in your teen years, what did you find yourself gravitating towards both academically and on the extracurricular side of things?

Yeah, so in my teen years, I had a lot of focus or spent a lot of time playing soccer.

I was also a middle child as I mentioned and having been the middle child I was always seeking attention so to speak and so you know I pushed pretty hard playing soccer and I peaked at the right time, so to speak.

I was playing YMCA rec league soccer until I was probably 9 or 10.

And then was doing like town travel leagues until I was probably 13 and started to play for 1 of the more premier travel teams when I was 13.

I was fortunate enough to have a coach, a guy named Olly Kazimani, who's a super sharp guy and played professionally.

He was like, you can be good if you want.

I was 16 and 17 years old when I made the national team, the under 18s.

It was a big step for me, a big milestone.

Like I said, it wasn't very good when I was younger.

I really put that as a goal and I made it happen and I was obviously still working hard at school but it was a lot of my focus was to try to get to that peak in soccer which I did and that was a big springboard so to speak into college.

I was recruited to play for different schools and ultimately ended up going to Duke and Duke was obviously a great school for academics.

They also had a very good soccer team and they still do.

And so at Duke I really enjoyed my academic career there because I quickly realized that soccer was gonna be a difficult path from a professional perspective.

And so back then, there wasn't really a behavioral finance course or behavioral finance focus.

And that was what I was really trying to spend my time at school studying.

So I kind of made my own version of that, studying economics and sociology, where I was understanding behaviors and behaviors of people and how it might relate to finance.

And that really piqued my interest coming out of school into trading and what people do and how they react to different market and market atmospheres, in particular bubbles.

That was a particular area of focus for me where I really wanted to understand bubbles in markets and the history of them and how they act and different atmospheres and different cultures.

So I got a great call foundation again from going to school and being in the right place where Duke now eventually has created a behavioral finance major.

Wasn't there when I was there, but it's there now, and so clearly they had the ability to do it.

And yeah, I continued to play soccer while I was there, which I fully enjoyed.

I had a great time, but my focus into a career in finance.

do you think those years as an athlete brought to you?

1 of the things that I observed over time is the set of translatable skills into the workforce.

I'll say an ability for, look, without going all the way to the top tier echelon of sports, but really an ability to deliver under pressure, right?

When the going gets tough or you might be challenged in your personal life, going through a rough patch, the ability to block that out, or block that out if you're in a situation where you need to perform.

And I think there's the concept of choking, really.

It's a well-known term in sports and in business.

Those are some of my takeaways from what transcends sort of the athletic mindset into, or permeates into the professional realm.

Yeah, I think there's a lot to unpack there, but just generally, for me at least, the traits and characteristics that I got out of playing for such a long time at a high level was resilience.

So you got to be able to bounce back from either losing a game or failing to make a team or, you know, not just, just not playing well on a day.

And I think it's super important trade for an entrepreneur or for anyone that's into the finance world in particular, for me, you had a receipt.

So constantly focusing on a goal and spending every day to take a step forward towards that goal and even if there's headwinds to just keep taking those steps I think that's another really important aspect not just for trading but just kind of career and life in general which I took away.

And you know I think the other I guess interesting thing about sports or playing them at a high level is being able to singularly focus on a task.

So almost like I said you have to black out or box out distractions, things that might get in the way.

And that can be in your personal life, it can be professionally or just outside noise.

And being able to focus on a singular task or a singular goal with all that going on around you.

I got really good at that when I was playing and I think I have some kind of quick examples, but I think that's something that I've taken away from sports and applied that to my career and been able to really hunker down when things get tough and focus on that goal.

And for listeners, I think the reason I emphasize on this is there's good lessons and elements to draw from that.

To your point earlier, Kobe Bryant said it best.

He said, whether you win or lose on any given game day, the next day, you're gonna have to pick yourself up, go back to training and keep at it.

And so a lot of it is just in your head, right?

You might feel elated When you're just coming off a win, you might feel a little bit down if you haven't hit that milestone or you didn't clinch that win, but it doesn't really matter because if you're in it to make it and you're in it for the long run, you just got to keep at it.

And So the ability to do this day in, day out.

I don't know, as far as I'm concerned, 1 of the things I've always marveled at, my ability to, if you end a day with an incredibly complex situation, an upset, as we all face, as we're building businesses, setting up businesses, it might be a personnel issue, It might be business deal gone wrong.

It might be something going on in the market that's playing against you.

It'd be the ability to wake up the next morning and say, I've got this, there's a way out.

Like, things can look very dire in the evening.

That's why I always say also, recommendation 101 to anyone listening, don't send important emails late at night unless you really have to.

There's an expression that says sleep on it.

What is your foray on Wall Street and how do you become a trader?

So I mean, in college, I started to dabble in the options market mostly because, again, from the family history, I'm understanding risk and trying to manage risk, options were something that I studied in undergrad, just derivatives markets generally, and I was really a small amount of money just trying to better understand how execution works, how P&L works, what are interesting, you call it professional strategies.

And I was actually drafted coming out of school to play soccer.

And at the time, I was like, I have to do this.

I wanted to pursue my career in finance, but I couldn't pass up the idea or chance to play professional soccer.

I played, you know, a season for the Cleveland force, which was a minor league team.

And I was also on the Columbus crew and had a chance to play with them on the practice squad and had a bunch of great players that I'd grown up actually watching on that team, which was a pretty unique experience.

I played for 2 seasons, but quickly realized I was just born in the wrong country to be playing professional soccer.

I had done an internship at Citigroup while I was playing and that was post-school and I was just on the sales desk there and just kind of learned how the bank worked and how client side worked and what was the process and what people focused on and kind of routines that were there.

And I really wanted to get into trading and I ended up doing an unpaid internship after Citigroup at a startup hedge fund called Berks Bay.

And the hedge fund was an options overlay strategy.

And it's just a unique experience because it was a startup.

So I was learning kind of how to handle that process and sort of the steps that it took to get there.

And I was also learning about the options market at a very sophisticated level.

And so it was a, I did whatever I could to just get my foot in the door and working unpaid was the way to go.

I was still playing at that point, actually, I was still playing semi pro, I played in a team in Brooklyn called the Brooklyn Knights.

So it was sort of kind of half in half out.

And then once that internship was over, I started working at a proprietary trading company at a few offers to work in Chicago and some in New York.

And I ultimately went to a place called First New York, which was a very entrepreneurial place.

I started doing the assistant trading program and basically was getting people coffee and just reading research reports at 6am to show some face and fortunate enough to learn from a lot of senior people at that place and it really kind of kick-started my entrepreneurial spirit and I learned a lot while I was there.

Not just how to manage risk, but how to manage people and sort of really get a better understanding on how Wall Street functions from the inside.

So in terms of honing your skills, it sounds like you were exposed to pretty complex instruments from the get-go, if I'm correct.

And as a former options trader myself, I can relate.

I feel like it's easier to go downstream from complexity into none than it is going the other way around.

The other thing that's interesting with derivatives is, and it's even more prevalent today in markets, the tail that wags the dog, most market participants and investors on some level, although it's less relevant at the frequency of deployment or withdrawal of capital if you're an investor, but certainly if you're a trader, the impact of the derivative market and flows and positioning of both sides of the equation, dealer-sell side versus buy side, is very, very important and affects the way prices move.

When did you start really grasping those concepts?

And also, what I'm curious is, how did you start developing insights that potentially you put to work later on in your career?

Was it occurring at the time or was it purely like grinding it out, learning the instruments, learning the terms, just getting acquainted or were there like little nuggets here and there where you're like, interesting.

I think I could exploit this or if I had X, Y, and Z, I could potentially make money doing this.

So, you know, just maybe starting with that first part, which is on the derivative side, I had, when I landed at First New York, I pushed hard to join, at the time it was called the International Desk, which really meant kind of anything goes globally.

And a lot of the main focus there was on trades in ADRs, or American Depository Receipts, which is essentially a derivative of an underlying or common stock that is non-US.

So for example, Sony can trade here in the US, and then obviously the common stock is trading in Japan, or British Petroleum, same thing.

You're in the US, there's an ADR, and then common stock trades in London.

So that was like 1 of the first trades that I had learned, and it was understanding, to your point, how a derivative will act or trade relative to its underlying.

And in the US, ADRs would kind of trade on its own and that would cause dislocations and it would happen because of fund flows or different buyers and sellers or lack of liquidity or lack of balance sheet with market makers and liquidity.

And so it's a really quick and easy way to understand how to see what fair price is in a derivative.

And when it gets off that fair price, whether it's too rich or too dear, cheap, then it's worth buying if it's too cheap and selling if it's too rich.

And so there was a lot of model driven, I call it statistical type of trading I picked up early on to try to find out what fair value was and calculate how far away we thought the instrument was away from fair value.

So that process you can really apply to almost any derivative so long as you understand how to model and how to better understand who the players are and what exactly is pushing the derivative around.

So back then, ADRs were still trading on the New York Stock Exchange floor, and we were picking up the phone and using a turret to call the floor and see where the flows are and who's buying, who's selling, and how can we be involved.

Nowadays, It's obviously very much an electronic game, but the model, fair pricing or fair value pricing still exists.

And it can be applied to any derivative or sort of any complex type of pricing model.

And that's, I guess, where my foundation sat and learned.

And I learned over time how to apply that type of trading to different derivatives.

So I got into ETFs very early on in 2005 and 2006, which was really a derivative of an underlying basket, and then started to trade futures and sort of other instruments.

And I had some really good success doing that.

So just kind of copying and pasting that process of understanding fair values and trading where I thought there was some complexity premium that I could figure out and potentially the market wasn't really the same.

Now, could you just briefly, if we're elaborating a little bit on the technicalities, and this is fun, because I don't always do this, but since this is my world as well.

When you think about risk management in essentially what is a convergence trade, right?

You're establishing ex ante that the market is not reflecting fair value in the relationship between an underlying and its derivative, right, at the core.

And you also say for listeners, it's also helpful that these things tend to occur or appear these anomalies when people can't necessarily access markets in the most efficient way.

There are frictions, there are liquidity constraints.

There is an inability to move capital from 1 location to another, 1 jurisdiction to another.

To your point about ADRs, they trade US time.

And so they should be reflecting some manifestation of how investors view the price of that asset during US market hours.

But Let's say if it's a Japanese stock, the bulk of the investors are going to be inactive or asleep at the time.

So knowing this, and we've seen examples here where if you look at GBTC for example, and it's a slightly different problem, but you do have an underlying and you do have a derivative instrument or a fund that's trading at a deep discount, right?

And that discount can really, really widen against you, right?

You are making a bet towards mean reversion.

So I guess what I'm trying to get at is, how did you think about risk management in the context of these convergence traits?

And how do you position yourself to avoid the convergence actually going against you?

Yeah, so there's a handful of different factors here.

I think the first 1, which is the probably most important to understand is whether or not there is forced convergence, or it is technically basis trade in our definition, which means there's no mechanism to force 2 instruments or 2 securities to tether together.

So in a situation where there's forced convergence, those spreads, meaning 1 is fungible with the other, those spreads can tighten relatively quickly, and they generally are not super wide.

So there can be exceptions because there is a time risk, so to speak.

So yes, there's forced convergence between 2 instruments, but it may take days for that to happen.

And that could be an operational process, or that could be because there's some sort of.

Market structure issue with let's say for example in ETF.

And then because there is time risk either that that could be days or weeks or months.

Then there can also be balance sheet risk.

So in other words, in order to put the trade on, 1 could be buying something, they have to post capital for it, and then 1 could also be selling a similar or same instrument would have to post capital on that other side or other leg.

And if you can't hold the trade for as long as it needs to, maybe it's, let's say 6 months because you've run out of capital, then that's a problem.

Because even though it will force converge, you just don't have the ability to stay solvent for that 6 months.

And we've seen that in different cases in ETFs and closed end funds and actually in GBTC.

But in cases where there's no force convergence, where there's potentially a soft catalyst for something to close, which I'd argue GBTC fits under that category, then it is purely, from my perspective, a risk management process or approach, meaning we have to understand what the potential risk is for the spread to continue to widen.

And if it continues to widen, what's the worst case scenario that we think it could get?

So we run the scenario analysis and GBTC is complex.

It's the investment trust with Bitcoin as the underlier.

There's obviously this potential for it to be converted to an ETF at some point.

And that product, it could widen out to 40% discount,

But if we model that out and say, look, the worst it could get to is 45%, then we need to better understand how much we're willing to lose based off of that model.

And if we have a mandate, especially in 1 of our strategies to lose no more than, let's say 5% in 1 position, we can model it out and determine how to size accordingly.

So we kind of work backwards with a sizing exercise, and then we trade from there.

So as long as we can get comfortable with, with the risks that we have on based on the models and scenario analysis that we run, that gives us the, I guess, ability to sleep at night to manage something like GBTC, which has a soft catalyst and really has that basis risk or that sort of spread risk.

And clearly we could see how you think and decompose all these different aspects.

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The Steward - Adam Guren, Hunting Hill Global Capital