- The podcast episode features Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, a pioneer in muscle science, who argues that chronic health issues are caused by having too little muscle rather than having too much body fat.
- Dr. Lyon's book, "Forever Strong," explores the science-based strategy for aging well by focusing on the importance of muscle mass.
- Skeletal muscle is the largest endocrine organ in the body and plays a crucial role in glucose disposal and insulin resistance.
- Skeletal muscle is often overlooked in medical settings, with doctors rarely measuring skeletal muscle mass or discussing its importance.
- Simple tests like grip strength can predict all-cause mortality better than other metrics.
- The conversation around exercise and longevity has primarily focused on cardiovascular exercise, neglecting the benefits of strength training.

- The speaker discusses the lack of research on strength training and longevity in the past
- They mention giving a TEDx talk that was flagged as not scientific advice, despite providing 52 references
- The speaker argues that the root cause of obesity is a midlife muscle crisis, rather than an obesity epidemic
- They explain how fat infiltration in skeletal muscle affects insulin sensitivity and overall health
- The speaker mentions a study on strength training and its impact on stopping the progression of beta amyloid plaques, which are linked to Alzheimer's
- They discuss the role of skeletal muscle in metabolic dysfunction and its connection to Alzheimer's and dementia
- The speaker mentions that obese individuals may have less muscle mass than average individuals
- They highlight the importance of measuring skeletal muscle mass accurately to understand its impact on health.

- Researchers have developed a D3 creatine pill that tags skeletal muscle and correlates muscle mass and strength.
- Loss of skeletal muscle mass is more detrimental than gain of body fat in aging individuals.
- Bed rest can cause a loss of 2 pounds of muscle in a week.
- Muscle requires a lot from the brain and loss of muscle may lead to brain atrophy.
- Skeletal muscle releases myokines which have an influence on the immune system and brain function.
- 50% of Americans do not exercise and only 24% meet the exercise requirements.
- The messaging around exercise and health needs to be improved to encourage more people to participate in strength training.

- The average person does not understand the benefits of strength training for health and longevity.
- Bigger muscles make it easier to benefit from muscle contractions and buffer the inactivity of daily life.
- Building muscle does not require extreme training, and just two days a week of proper strength training can provide significant improvements.
- Doctors need to speak about the importance of strength training and have standardized methods for measuring strength.
- A muscle-centric medicine certification course has been created for healthcare professionals.
- Eating below what you burn can help mitigate the negative effects of what we eat on our health.
- Simply trying to move more is not an effective way to burn more calories, building muscle is.
- Doctors should be on board with promoting strength training and shifting the conversation to focus on what can be gained rather than what is lost.
- Strength training can help slow down the signs of aging and has positive effects on hormones.

- Obesity is linked to lower levels of testosterone and fertility in both men and women.
- Having an ideal body composition and reducing excess body fat can help improve testosterone levels.
- Skeletal muscle does not directly influence testosterone production, but it does increase androgen receptor density, making testosterone more effective.
- Resistance training may not directly increase testosterone production, but it can help maintain a fertile level of testosterone and increase androgen receptor density.
- Studies show that total testosterone and free testosterone may have a small effect on strength and muscle mass, but the big effect is on androgen receptor density.
- Strength training can positively influence other aspects of life, such as sleep, energy levels, and decision-making, which collectively make a difference in testosterone levels.
- Dietary protein is important for body composition changes, and the recommendations for protein intake have not changed since 1968.
- Nutrition conversations often involve politics and moral issues, making it difficult to have a straight conversation based on empirical data.
- After World War I, nutrition became a national emergency, and strategies were developed to educate the public on proper nutrition for strength and vitality.
- The strategies included eating high-quality protein, unprocessed foods, and getting enough vitamin A and salt.

- The video discusses how government policies and industry influence have shaped nutritional recommendations and food marketing.
- It highlights how during times of war, the government promoted health and vitality, but this has changed in modern times.
- The influence of powerful lobbies has led to the fortification of nutrient-devoid foods and the promotion of processed foods.
- The video suggests that the incentive for industries is to keep consumers sick and unhealthy, as it makes them better consumers.
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of questioning beliefs and considering different perspectives in order to make informed choices about nutrition.
- The video also discusses the influence of marketing budgets on food narratives and the potential negative consequences of demonizing certain foods.
- The speaker advocates for transparent and honest conversations about nutrition, allowing individuals to make their own choices based on accurate information.

- The video discusses the demonization of protein and strength training in recent articles.
- The importance of protein in preventing deficiencies is emphasized, with the recommended minimum being 0.8 grams per kg or 0.37 grams per pound.
- The role of dietary protein in supporting skeletal muscle mass is highlighted, especially in a caloric deficit.
- The idea that reducing dietary protein for longevity purposes is questioned, as mTOR (a protein complex) is necessary for growth and is sensitive to insulin and dietary protein.
- The comparison is made between the demonization of protein and the idea of removing testosterone to prevent prostate cancer.
- The positive effects of building muscle on bone health, brain health, and other organs are discussed, including the inter-organ crosstalk and myokines.
- The myth that protein leaches calcium and the importance of dietary protein for bone health is mentioned.
- Concern is expressed about the anti-protein narrative and the dangers of such narratives, similar to the removal of dietary cholesterol from guidelines.

- Dr. Gabrielle Lyon argues that chronic health issues are caused by having too little muscle rather than having too much body fat.
- Skeletal muscle plays a crucial role in glucose disposal and insulin resistance, but is often overlooked in medical settings.
- Simple tests like grip strength can predict all-cause mortality better than other metrics.
- The conversation around exercise and longevity has primarily focused on cardiovascular exercise, neglecting the benefits of strength training.
- Skeletal muscle is important for metabolic function and its connection to Alzheimer's and dementia.
- Building muscle does not require extreme training, and just two days a week of proper strength training can provide significant improvements.
- Doctors need to speak about the importance of strength training and have standardized methods for measuring strength.
- Strength training can help slow down the signs of aging and has positive effects on hormones.
- Obesity is linked to lower levels of testosterone and fertility in both men and women.
- The influence of powerful lobbies has led to the promotion of processed foods, and the importance of questioning beliefs about nutrition is emphasized.
- The role of dietary protein in supporting skeletal muscle mass is highlighted, especially in a caloric deficit.
- The positive effects of building muscle on bone health, brain health, and other organs are discussed.

- The speaker has experience with training athletes and average individuals who need to exercise but don't care for it.
- They have never had a client who eats enough protein and believe that increasing protein intake is important for muscle growth, health, and food choices.
- Protein is made up of 20 different amino acids, 9 of which are essential and should be considered individual nutrients.
- Each amino acid has diverse biological roles, such as leucine stimulating muscle protein synthesis and mTOR.
- Protein turnover is important, and if the body doesn't have enough amino acids, it may prioritize maintaining tissues over other functions like mucin production in the gut.
- Protein also produces satiety and can help prevent overeating.
- Protein quality and bioavailable essential amino acids are important, especially if protein intake is low.
- The speaker argues that protein should not be viewed as a generic term, and the food matrix and other nutrients like creatine, taurine, iron, zinc, and selenium should also be considered.
- The speaker criticizes the demonization of meat and high-quality protein sources and emphasizes the need for transparent conversations about dietary choices.
- Creatine is discussed as a potential longevity supplement due to its role in building muscle and supporting mitochondria.
- Vegans may be deficient in creatine, and supplementing with essential amino acids and creatine can have positive effects.
- The speaker expresses concern about the anti-animal narrative and the potential for misinformation, particularly for individuals trying to make dietary choices.

- The speaker is concerned about the long-term effects of dietary habits on sarcopenia and osteoporosis.
- The plasticity of the brain and body in children is a concern, as the lack of essential nutrients can permanently affect their cognitive and physical potential.
- The speaker interviewed an agriculturalist who shares the same concerns about children's development.
- The impact of technology and lack of social interaction on children's development is also worrisome.
- The myth that weightlifting stunts growth in children is debunked.
- The speaker discusses the battle against misinformation, media portrayal of muscle, and cultural biases.
- Dietary cholesterol intake can have a positive effect on muscle strength in the short term.
- The speaker shares a personal story that led to their interest in promoting a different perspective on health.

- The speaker, a trained geriatrician, was upset by Instagram posts bashing protein and decided to speak out against it.
- The reception to her message has been mixed, with both positive and negative responses.
- The most common argument she has to debunk is people taking things out of context and misrepresenting her views.
- Social media can be unprofessional and childish, with people making videos and attacking others for attention.
- Muscle is anti-cancer and strength training is the most effective form of exercise for preventing and protecting against cancer.
- Strength training has numerous benefits, including faster metabolism, improved hormone function, and individualized rehabilitation.
- Strength training is empowering for women and allows them to be self-reliant and independent.
- Personal strength is a personal responsibility and no one has ever regretted becoming stronger.

- Strength training has been found to be effective in reducing anxiety and depression
- The medical community needs to be informed about the benefits of strength training
- The speaker's book, "Forever Strong," provides foundational principles and references for trainers and physicians
- The RGB Super Bundle, which includes exercise programming, is available for those looking to improve their body and health.

The speaker emphasizes the importance of protein intake for muscle growth, health, and food choices. They discuss the diverse biological roles of amino acids and the importance of protein quality. They criticize the demonization of meat and highlight the potential benefits of creatine supplementation. The speaker expresses concern about the impact of dietary habits on long-term health, particularly in children. They debunk myths about weightlifting and discuss the battle against misinformation. They promote strength training for cancer prevention, improved hormone function, and mental health. The speaker calls for the medical community to be informed about the benefits of strength training and promotes their book and exercise programming.

In this episode Sal, Adam & Justin speak to Dr. Gabrielle Lyon about the role muscle plays in overall health and longevity.
  We are not overfat but under-muscled. (1:57)  What makes muscle so protective as an organ? (4:51)
   Why are doctors so slow to change their paradigm of thinking around building muscle? (7:49)
   How insulin resistance affects the body. (11:47)
   The disconnect with measuring strength vs. muscle mass. (17:33)
   If you want to have a healthy brain, MOVE! (22:47)
   How do we move the needle to get people to lift weights? (27:28)
   The effect muscle has on hormones. (38:33)
   Why are nutrition conversations steeped in politics? (46:22)
   How does building muscle help with organ health? (1:05:45)
   Why we must stop talking about protein as a generic term. (1:09:19)
   Creatine is an anti-aging/longevity supplement. (1:14:36)
   Having concerns over the anti-animal narrative. (1:18:12)
   The myths surrounding kids and exercise/tech. (1:22:12)
   How dietary cholesterol can positively affect muscle strength. (1:26:11)
   Feeling the responsibility to help people and change lives. (1:27:37)
   How actions will ALWAYS trump words. (1:31:23)
   Making the case for the benefits of strength training. (1:33:58)
   You move your body; you move your mind. (1:39:25)
   A PSA for EVERY trainer out there. (1:40:11)
   Related Links/Products Mentioned
   Forever Strong: A New, Science-Based Strategy for Aging Well – Book by Dr. Gabrielle Lyon
   For a limited time only, Mind Pump listeners get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any purchase: Visit DrinkLMNT.com/MindPump
   October Promotion: MAPS Bands | The Skinny Guy ‘hardgainer’ Bundle 50% off! **Code OCTOBER50 at checkout**
    Higher weight is linked to poor brain health in children
   Association of Grip Strength With Risk of All-Cause Mortality, Cardiovascular Diseases, and Cancer in Community-Dwelling Populations: A Meta-analysis of Prospective Cohort Studies
   The Midlife Muscle Crisis: why we've gotten obesity all wrong | Gabrielle Lyon | TEDxWestMonroe
   The Resistance Training Revolution – Book by Sal Di Stefano
    Strength training can help protect the brain from degeneration
   D3-creatine dilution for the noninvasive measurement of skeletal muscle mass in premature infants
    Mind Pump #1835: Why Resistance Training Is The Best Form Of Exercise For Fat Loss And Overall Health
    Mind Pump #2152: How To Convince Friends & Family To Work Out
    Mind Pump #2075: The New Science Of Living Longer & Better With Dr. Rand McClain
    The effect of acute sleep deprivation on skeletal muscle protein synthesis and the hormonal environment
    Keto Diet May Improve Fertility in Women with PCOS, Study Finds
    Stanford historian traces military's influence on U.S. nutrition
    The food industry pays ‘influencer’ dietitians to shape your eating habits
   Systematic review and meta-analysis of the associations of vegan and vegetarian diets with inflammatory biomarkers
    Plant Based Diets Won't Help | Peter Ballerstedt PhD – The Dr. Gabrielle Lyon Show
    Muscle-strengthening activities and cancer incidence and mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis of observational studies
   Mind Pump Podcast – YouTube
   Mind Pump Free Resources
   Featured Guest/People Mentioned
   Dr. Gabrielle Lyon (@drgabriellelyon) Instagram
   Dr. Rand McClain (@dr.randmcclain) Instagram
   Layne Norton, Ph.D. (@biolayne) Instagram
   Peter Ballerstedt, PhD (@grassbased) Instagram
   Bedros Keuilian (@bedroskeuilian) Instagram
   Ed Mylett (@edmylett) Instagram
    

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only 1 place to go.

With your hosts, Sal DiStefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews.

You just found the most downloaded fitness, health, and entertainment podcast in history.

We have the pioneer of muscle science, Dr.

She's the 1 that essentially coined the phrase.

She studies, understands, and explains how muscle mass, muscle itself is a healthy organ, how having too little muscle is probably the cause of most of our chronic health issues, Not that we have too much body fat, but rather that body fat or too much body fat is a result of having too little muscle.

She actually helps me back up a lot of things I observed as a trainer over the last 2 decades.

It's called Forever Strong, a new science-based strategy for aging well.

So find her on social media, give her a follow.

This is an electrolyte powder that has no artificial sweeteners, has no calories, but has the right amount of sodium to maximize your workouts, your performance, and your recovery.

Go to drinklmnt.com forward slash mind pump.

And they're offering all of our audience a free sample pack with any order.

MAPS bands is half off and the hard gainer bundle is half off.

You can find both of them at mapsfitnessproducts.com.

Just use the code October50 for that discount.

I wanna know what inspired you to write your book.

And talk a little bit about the information that's in there.

That's so, it's strange to say this, but counter what is considered mainstream advice around things like health and longevity.

Well, We've been trying to fight an obesity epidemic for the last 50 years.

And when you have the problem correct, you assume that we get solutions.

For the last 50 years, we've gotten sicker, fatter, weaker as a country.

And in my mind, we have to ask a different question and a better question.

And this actually, this book came out of personal experience.

I don't think that I've ever told you guys this.

And at the time I was forced to do geriatrics.

So I actually don't think that I've ever really publicly talked about this, but I went to WashU to study nutritional sciences.

So the goal was I was going to do a fellowship in nutritional sciences.

The catch was I was gonna have to see people at the end of their life.

And you can imagine the impact that would have day after day in the nursing home, on the weekends, seeing 30 patients a day that are at the end of life.

And then in the evenings doing weight management clinic and in the early mornings doing muscle biopsies and cardiovascular testing, doing research on obesity.

And I became really attached to 1 of these participants.

And she was a mom of 3, trying to lose the same 20 pounds after her last 3 kids.

So we were looking at the interface between body composition and brain function.

And I imaged her brain, and her brain looked like the beginning of an Alzheimer's brain.

And I knew what the trajectory of her life was gonna be.

Because the information that we had been telling her was, eat the food guide pyramid, further reduce your calories, do more cardiovascular activity, don't train, don't address skeletal muscle, do all the things to treat obesity.

And I realized that the sickest patients all had 1 thing in common.

It was that they had unhealthy muscle or they were under-muscled.

And then if we began to shift the focus and we really cared about human health and doing the right thing for people, then we have to shift the conversation and begin to ask the right question.

And that's where this concept of muscle-centric medicine came from.

What is it about muscle that makes it so protective as an organ?

I think the obvious thing people would think about is, well, I need mobility, I need to be able to move around, so that's why I need muscle, but it goes a lot deeper than that, right?

And we need to all look jacked and tan like Sal, which is really what people think about.

People think about the 80s with the spray tan and the muscle tease.

It is still bro science, no offense to the dudes in the

It is the largest endocrine organ in the body.

Trumps the heart, it trumps the thyroid, dare I say it even trumps the gonads.

Skeletal muscle from the framework of medicine and health is, this should come as no shock, is the site of glucose disposal, right?

It is the primary site of insulin resistance.

So if we were to take a step back, what are we all wanting?

We are all wanting to age well and increase the quality of our life over time.

So everybody listening has to be interested in outcomes.

We are seeing, if you look at the CDC, we are seeing causes of mortality, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer's disease, diabetes, cancer, all of which are rooted in what?

Skeletal muscle and obesity are not on that list.

Wait, as a cause, as a cause of death, skeletal muscle is not on that list.

So when we think about skeletal muscle, these are underlying principles that directly affect our capacity to age and have optimal wellness and vitality and strength.

Skeletal muscle as a glucose disposal unit.

Insulin resistance, we've all talked and all heard about insulin.

Insulin is this peptide hormone released from the pancreas.

As you well know, Sal I've heard you talk about it, moves blood glucose from the blood into cells, right?

Well, insulin resistance, when you require more insulin for the glucose that you have, what do you think 1 of the first tissues affected is?

There's information, some of the earlier studies out of Yale, an 18-year-old, quote, healthy sedentary, no visual excess body fat or abdominal fat, showing insulin resistance in skeletal muscle at 18.

This begins decades earlier in skeletal muscle before we're even seeing adiposity, before we're seeing excess subcutaneous fat.

So we have to address skeletal muscle as the primary site for all things metabolic.

So from a doctor's perspective, I'm really curious to hear your opinion on this because the way I used to explain it to clients why, because we've known this and we've been communicating this message for a long time, But when I get questions from my clients, they'd say, well, my doctor doesn't tell me that.

So I used to say, because this is what I believe or thought, is that it's because of the risk factor, because doctors don't want to tell people to go build muscle because they could hurt themselves.

And so we pushed this narrative that cardio is the best form of fighting obesity.

Why is it that we're this, if you know this, we've known this for a long time, It's not like it's not known.

We have completely Missed the boat as muscle as the pinnacle of health When you go to a physician's office, they measure blood pressure.

They measure temperature They might even measure BMI.

They might focus on body fat, although very rarely.

When do they measure skeletal muscle mass?

Not only that, but they're so off by the, I remember- The general recommendations?

Yeah, I remember, well, I remember going in and getting measured and according to their charts, I was obese because they don't even factor muscle in

And also, by the way, we also don't directly measure skeletal muscle mass.

And I think that that's important to point out.

DEXA doesn't directly measure skeletal muscle mass.

We don't even have the tools to routinely measure these things at a population level.

Well, we know that a simple grip strength test, which is a general proxy, right, for overall physical strength, can predict all-cause mortality better than almost any other single metric.

We're not using it yet, maybe because we don't have standards, but we are seeing now the conversation change a little bit.

I think part of the problem was the studies done on exercise and longevity were all, none of them were done on any other form of exercise in cardiovascular exercise.

And I don't know if that's because it's easy to put a hamster on a wheel and it's hard to get, you know, mice to lift or if because maybe strength training was always relegated to first bodybuilders and then just athletic performance.

So we had athletic performance studies, but there were no, I mean, 20, 30 years ago when I first became a trainer, you couldn't find a study on strength training and longevity, it just didn't exist.

And I think that we are slow to catch up and we are all seeing this in clinical practice and we're really slow to change the paradigm of thinking and the conversation.

So I gave a TEDx talk, which in May was the second most viewed TEDx talk in the world.

It was flagged as, yeah, they flagged it as this is information only of the person giving it.

I sent in 52 references for each statement.

I said, everything you know, everything you thought about obesity is wrong.

That we don't actually have an obesity epidemic.

Yes, obesity is a problem, but okay, that's symptomology.

Cause is, and I'm saying this blanketly, so I'm sensitive to that.

I understand for the providers and the professionals listening, things are multifactorial, But you cannot discount the massive influence of skeletal muscle as this primary site.

And that while obesity, quote, is a problem, why don't we address it at the root cause level?

And the root cause level is skeletal muscle.

Lyon, I, when I wrote, so I wrote a book around this, around just strength training.

I tried to create it for the layman, right?

Just to kind of, to create a narrative or change the narrative for the average person who wants to lose weight, who never really considered strength training.

But I did do a lot of research and looked at studies.

And 1 of the studies that was shocking to me at first, and it makes sense when you think about it, was how they would take severely obese people, have them lose no weight at all.

They would just have them build a little bit of muscle and their insulin sensitivity would dramatically improve.

They lost no body, they were still massively obese, they just built a little bit of muscle.

Maybe talk about insulin resistance, what that does to the body, how that can cause so many different diseases, and then how muscle can affect that.

Stephanie Black-Knight Yeah, I think that's a really great point.

And I want to point out this idea that when we get excess body fat, we don't just get it on what you can see.

Well, fat also infiltrates skeletal muscle.

Skeletal muscle, which should look like a filet, ends up looking like a rib eye steak.

And granted, you see some intramuscular fat from athletes as a source of energy, intramuscular triglycerides.

But intramuscular adipose tissue really affects insulin sensitivity.

It affects the quality of skeletal muscle.

So skeletal muscle, if you think about skeletal muscle, think about it like a suitcase.

And if you're going on a trip and you're a woman, let's say You're packing for 4 days, but you're really packing for a month.

You're laughing because you know exactly what I'm talking about.

So if you open the suitcase and let's say glucose is, you want to pack some glycogen in there.

You're eating carbohydrates, you're not exercising, You're packing carbohydrates into this skeletal muscle.

Over time, the glucose has nowhere to go.

It begins to go back into the bloodstream.

Insulin over time creates a whole host of issues, whether it's the insulin in and of itself or the elevated levels of glucose that ride along with it, and then subsequent elevated levels of triglycerides, all of which can create low levels of inflammation and just a complete metabolic disaster, elevated levels of atherosclerosis and just et cetera.

So When you have an individual who is obese, there's this concept of, you know, there's, you can be metabolically healthy and obese or overweight.

I think over time, that's not going to be true.

And 1 reason is we're not looking directly at the tissue.

We are not directly imaging skeletal muscle tissue.

So we have no way to assess the amount of fat that is now infiltrated into tissue.

Over time, this affects the mitochondrial aspect of skeletal muscle.

It affects strength, it affects contractility, it affects the muscle protein synthetic response.

So skeletal muscle as this primary organ system, when it becomes dysfunctional, while it makes 40% of the body, maybe everyone in here it's like 60%, but this is a huge tissue that over time, when not leveraged, becomes dysfunctional, also perpetuates low levels of inflammation.

So now it becomes an inflammatory, a cause of inflammation, rather than something that can reduce or modulate in an appropriate way inflammation.

Yeah, I think that's safe to say, it becomes unhealthy tissue that again, exists as a massive portion of your body.

Does this also have to do with the reason why there was a study done in Australia, I believe, where they looked at strength training and the progression of the beta amyloid plaques that there seems to be a relationship with those and Alzheimer's.

It was the only form of exercise that stopped the progression.

All forms of exercise improve your health and seem to have a positive impact, but it was a strength training that had the biggest impact.

And I've heard people refer to Alzheimer's and dementia as type 3 diabetes.

That's actually what I did my, that's what I did my clinical fellowship.

So in geriatrics, I spent time running an Alzheimer's memory and aging clinic.

And the question was, was it beta amyloid plaque?

There's tau proteins, there's all kinds of hypotheses as to why it happens.

But 1 thing is for sure is that metabolic dysfunction is a huge contributor to Alzheimer's.

Just as you mentioned type 3 diabetes of the brain.

And again, while they seem separate, it all rides together.

And again, you have to ask yourself, what acts as a root cause mechanism?

more healthy skeletal muscle mass you have, and actually we saw that.

In some of the studies that we did, and you'll see this now in subsequent studies, we looked at fMRI studies of the brain.

And 1 thing that we saw routinely, and again, you see this now, is that the more, the wider the waistline, the more overall obesity, the lower the brain volume.

1 theory is this just metabolic implication over time.

Let me add, typically with, there used to be this belief, and I remember when I first saw an MRI of an obese person next to someone who was not obese.

There used to be this belief that obese people would have more muscle mass because of their body weight.

But the MRIs show that not only do obese people not have more muscle mass, they actually have less muscle mass than the average person.

So it could, and I'd love your comment on that, but also the reduction in brain volume due to obesity, I'm gonna hypothesize here, but do you think it has less to do with the obesity and more to do with the reduced muscle mass?

1 of the other things that they didn't look at is the quality of the tissue.

Let's say, in fact, it was true that individuals that are carrying around more weight need more tissue to support that.

That does not address the quality of the skeletal muscle at all.

You have no idea what that quality of that tissue

You could have more tissue, you could have a large cow and you might take this like rib eye cut and half that tissue is connective tissue and fat.

It's not as if it's just this filet of tissue.

The other thing that you said is very important and I wanna just point out that we are not great at measuring skeletal muscle mass directly.

And because of this fact, there is this disconnect, which seems logical, but in the research, as it stands right now, people will say strength is much more important than mass.

We all can agree that nearly all the data would support that.

There's a major flaw in the way that that is done.

And that is that because when we look at mass, it's just people don't realize it's lean body mass is Anything that's not fat.

So it could be fluid, it could literally be oil, like some bodybuilders will inject themselves with like oil to make the muscle.

So a researcher named William Evans, and Hellerstedt, another researcher, they've come out with a D3 creatine where an individual will take a pill and it tags, it's a deuterated creatine, and it tags skeletal muscle.

And so now with this research, there's a great paper, it came out in 2019, they've tested it in infants, neonates, all ranges of humans, and what they're starting to see is that muscle mass and strength correlate.

When you directly measure skeletal mass, skeletal mass and strength do correlate.

And the reason by the way they use strength now is because strength by itself is a better measurement of lean, of actual muscle fibers than what we do now, which is just look at lean body mass, which I can affect, literally, I could go on a keto diet, suck the water and glycogen out of my muscles, and I'll measure lower lean body mass, even though my body mass might not be affected in the sense that I don't have less muscle contractile tissue.

Now you're saying they can actually test and say this is actual contractile tissue.

And they're seeing differences in the dexa.

So where they would say, okay, well, dexa is showing no relationship between muscle mass and strength, right?

That they're seeing when you directly measure skeletal muscle, that's not true.

And you also said something else that's very important.

It's not the gain of body fat, and this is by the same group, Evans, that it's not the gain of body fat over time that's more detrimental.

You know, in aging research and in clinical practice, we never tell an older individual over the age of 65 to lose weight.

Because if they fall, if they break a hip, we do not tell them to lose weight.

And not does it only result in worse outcomes, they might not die from the fall, but the subsequent metabolic consequences of that fall, having bed rest, they do see increase in insulin resistance.

An individual on bed rest could lose 2 pounds of muscle in a week.

And when you're young, you can gain that back.

But as you age, it's much more difficult.

This is what's known as a catabolic crisis.

I used to train doctors, and I remember 1 of them saying a statement that I thought was, like, I couldn't believe it.

And then I confirmed it with every other, I trained at 1 point, maybe like 13, 14 doctors.

No, no, they were phenomenal, great people, wonderful people.

And 1 of them said, oh yeah, break a hip, die of pneumonia.

Like when people fall and get hurt when they're older, their life quality, their health declines rapidly because now they can't move and the body just degenerates at a much faster rate.

The part about muscle and brain volume, I wanna go back to that because this one's an interesting 1 to me and I wanna hammer this home because I don't think people are making the connection.

If you look at body fat on the body, and I'm so glad you're here because you're gonna be able to help me with this thought here.

If you look at body fat on the body, there are functions that are required within the body to preserve that body fat, nourish the body fat, sustain the body fat, but it's nothing like muscle, right?

So every time you learn a new movement, you're not just developing your muscle, developing the brain and the central nervous system.

If you stop moving, we could do MRIs and notice parts of the brain that will actually atrophy because you no longer are contracting, controlling, balancing.

Like people don't realize they take for granted all the movement we do.

See all Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth transcripts on Applepodcasts

2187: Why Building Muscle Is More Important Than Losing Fat With Dr. Gabrielle Lyon