- This is the third episode in a series about mental health with Dr. Paul Conte.
- This episode focuses on healthy relationships of all kinds, including romantic relationships, friendships, and relationships with oneself.
- Dr. Conte discusses what makes for a successful relationship and tools to improve relationships.
- The discussion includes different types of bonds, challenges in relationships, and the role of power dynamics, anxiety, and boundaries.
- The episode approaches relationships through the lens of the self and conscious and subconscious minds.
- The episode emphasizes the importance of agency and gratitude in relationships.
- The goal is to be the healthiest and best expression of oneself in order to do the most for oneself and others.
- The episode is sponsored by BetterHelp and Waking Up, offering therapy and meditation resources.

- Being the best version of ourselves allows us to be the best in our relationships
- Relationships involve both "me" and "you" but also the "us" between us
- The core elements of self include the unconscious mind, conscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure, and self
- Understanding these elements can lead to agency and gratitude
- Defense mechanisms can be healthy and protect us
- Paying attention to what is salient in our minds and our behaviors is important
- Examining ourselves and our issues of self can lead to improvement and strengthen the "geyser" of agency and gratitude
- Relationships involve compatibility and generative drives

- Compatibility in relationships is not determined by superficial factors like education or shared interests
- What matters is the generative drive in each person and whether it aligns with the other person's generative drive
- Factors like education or shared interests can be explored and learned from, but they are not the core of compatibility
- Healthy relationships are centered around the generative drive and the ability to be curious and open-minded about the other person's interests
- Compatibility is not about finding someone exactly like you, but about finding someone whose generative drive aligns with yours

- The author discusses the importance of openness, humility, and agency in relationships.
- Like-mindedness is not about shared interests or activities, but about generative drives and how they align.
- Traditional barriers, such as geography and culture, can be overcome through online dating.
- Interconnectedness and continuous learning contribute to longer and healthier lives.
- Appreciation for diversity and difference is important in relationships.
- Sameness does not necessarily lead to successful relationships; generative drive is a more important factor.
- The author promotes AG1 as a supplement for overall health and well-being.
- Common beliefs about relationships are often misleading and can lead to negative outcomes.
- The author emphasizes the importance of personal health and finding a partner with similar goals for self-improvement.
- Generative drive is an internal force that defines our potential and drives us to learn and spread goodness.

- The drive within us is influenced by genetics and formative experiences, but can be altered.
- The drive consists of potentials and possibilities that can be localized and influenced.
- Agency and gratitude are the active verbs of the drive, leading to decisions and reflections.
- A strong generative drive leads to peace, contentment, and a better life.
- Compatibility is based on fostering the generative drive and approaching the world with agency and gratitude.
- The generative drive is built and altered in each moment, affecting future moments.
- Matching levels of generative drives in romantic relationships fosters the best relationships.
- Not considering generative drives can lead to problems in relationships.
- Trauma bonds can be positive if both individuals have similar avoidance issues.

- Trauma bonding can worsen trauma if the drives are not in a healthy place
- The generative drive and pleasure drives may be low or high, but not gratified
- In a healthy trauma bond, both individuals recognize their trauma and work on themselves
- The generative drive is crucial for healthy communication and understanding in relationships
- Friction in relationships often stems from a lack of generative drive and expression
- Mismatched sex drives can create problems in relationships if not addressed through communication and understanding
- High generative drives allow for open and non-judgmental communication about sexual preferences and needs.

- Shame around sexuality prevents people from trying new things or exploring their desires.
- In a loving relationship, both partners can experience sexual growth and satisfaction.
- Acceptance of oneself and the belief in the strength of the relationship allow for open communication and exploration.
- Giving without expecting anything in return promotes a sense of abundance and can lead to more generative behavior.
- Imbalance in desires can lead to guilt and resentment in relationships.
- The pleasure drive should not overshadow the generative drive and the larger goals of the individuals involved.

- Dr. Paul Conte discusses healthy relationships, including romantic relationships, friendships, and relationships with oneself.
- The episode explores the role of power dynamics, anxiety, and boundaries in relationships.
- It emphasizes the importance of agency and gratitude in relationships.
- The core elements of self, including the unconscious mind, conscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure, and self, are discussed.
- Compatibility in relationships is based on generative drives, not superficial factors like education or shared interests.
- The importance of openness, humility, and agency in relationships is highlighted.
- The episode promotes AG1 as a supplement for overall health and well-being.
- Trauma bonds can be positive if both individuals have similar avoidance issues, but can worsen trauma if not in a healthy place.
- Mismatched sex drives can create problems in relationships if not addressed through communication and understanding.
- Giving without expecting anything in return promotes a sense of abundance and generative behavior.

- A strong generative drive and being healthy are important in a relationship
- The relationship is a new entity that emerges from two individuals
- Love is not just about pleasure or liking the same things, it requires self-awareness and overcoming limitations
- Both individuals in the relationship need to work on themselves and have a strong generative drive
- Different drives, such as sex drive or proactiveness, can impact the relationship
- Communication and understanding are key in addressing differences and working towards a healthier relationship
- Exploring the structure and function of oneself can help uncover barriers and shift behaviors
- The goal is to create a stronger, healthier "us" in the relationship
- Common pairings that lead to bad outcomes should be recognized and avoided
- Continuous personal growth and self-improvement are important in any relationship.

- The discussion is about unhealthy relationships and the reasons behind them.
- There are two common paradigms in relationships with significant mental health issues.
- Trauma triggers shame and can lead to repeating cycles in relationships.
- The limbic system doesn't care about time and tries to make past traumas right in the present.
- People may select partners based on a high probability of repeating the same negative patterns.
- Understanding the reasons behind these patterns can lead to positive change.
- Less extreme patterns, such as being too deferential or submissive, can also lead to unhealthy relationships.
- It is important to address these patterns, even if they are not as dramatic.

- Some unhealthy relationships involve both parties doing things to ensure the other person doesn't leave
- Narcissistic individuals can exploit vulnerable people who are desperate to avoid abandonment
- Attachment insecurity can lead to compromising oneself to prevent the other person from leaving
- Unhealthy relationships can trap victims due to financial reasons, children, or psychological factors
- Victims may stay in abusive situations due to demoralization and a lack of empowerment
- Intervention and support can help individuals leave abusive situations and find empowerment
- Gratitude and agency are important in breaking free from abusive situations

- Unhealthy relationships are characterized by a lack of agency and gratitude
- Isolation is often used as a tactic by oppressors to keep their victims in the relationship
- Darkness and demoralization are tools used by oppressors to maintain control
- Change is possible for both the oppressor and the oppressed, but resources and support are often lacking
- Community support systems and societal structures play a crucial role in fostering healthy relationships
- Similar dynamics can be seen in non-romantic relationships, such as workplaces, families, and friendship circles.

- The speaker discusses how movies often portray teens oppressing each other through bullying and ridicule, which is destructive.
- Victims often feel trapped because leaving means losing opportunities and power dynamics favor those in positions of power.
- The lack of accountability in closed systems leads to oppression.
- Higher order accountability is needed that is reasonable and rational, without being overly controlling or under controlling.
- The speaker shares a personal experience of physical abuse within a medical treatment team, highlighting the failure of the system.
- Envy is identified as the driving force behind destructive behavior, particularly in individuals with narcissistic character structures.
- Envy is different from jealousy, as it seeks to bring down others rather than improve oneself.
- Envy is destructive and prevents happiness, leading to a bottomless pit of dissatisfaction.
- Narcissistic individuals may experience brief gratification but are ultimately insecure and rely on unhealthy defense mechanisms.

- Power dynamics are present in all types of relationships, including romantic ones.
- Power dynamics are often covert and involve unspoken issues and behaviors.
- It is important to look for the non-obvious signs of power dynamics in relationships.
- Give and take is a good indicator of a healthy relationship.
- Imbalances in power dynamics can be unhealthy and cause problems.
- Generosity and giving are central to healthy relationships and can lead to happiness and success.

- Strong generative drive and being healthy are important in a relationship
- Love requires self-awareness and overcoming limitations
- Communication and understanding are key in addressing differences
- Exploring oneself can help uncover barriers and shift behaviors
- Continuous personal growth and self-improvement are important in any relationship
- Trauma triggers shame and can lead to repeating cycles in relationships
- Unhealthy relationships involve patterns of behavior and attachment insecurity
- Intervention and support can help individuals leave abusive situations
- Gratitude and agency are important in breaking free from abusive relationships
- Isolation and demoralization are tools used by oppressors to maintain control
- Community support systems and societal structures play a crucial role in fostering healthy relationships
- Power dynamics are present in all types of relationships
- Generosity and giving are central to healthy relationships.

- The goodness within oneself is what fosters happiness and success, not just external achievements
- Giving feels better than receiving and is part of a generative cycle
- Relationships can have transactions, but not all relationships are transactional
- Human experience disproves the idea that everything is transactional
- There is something beyond just the individual in relationships
- Divided roles in a family can still lead to a non-transactional, generative relationship

- The generative spirit allows a couple to nurture their relationship without oppression.
- Communication, listening, and generosity are important for a good relationship.
- Kindergarten is a template for a generative environment with supportive others and positive behaviors.
- Anxiety can hinder the generative drive and prevent asking for what is needed.
- Anxiety can range from too little tension to high levels that narrow cognitive abilities.
- Self-reflection is important to address anxiety and its impact on relationships.
- The phenomenon of tugging the line in communication can cause anxiety and damage relationships.
- Identifying and addressing excessive anxiety is crucial for personal growth and relationship improvement.

- Anxiety can have various causes, including biological, psychological, and environmental factors
- It is important to examine the reasons behind our anxiety in order to understand and address it
- Understanding our own anxiety can lead to positive change and improvement
- It is common for people to switch between focusing on themselves and others in relationships
- The "us" in a relationship is powerful and can impact anxiety levels and overall well-being
- Putting ourselves in the shoes of others can be beneficial in understanding their feelings and intentions
- Mentalization, the ability to discern feelings and intentions in ourselves and others, is important for healthy relationships.

- Mentalizing is crucial in understanding others and ourselves in order to navigate conflicts and disagreements
- It involves assessing the intentions and behaviors of others and ourselves accurately
- Mentalizing allows for clarity and understanding, while a lack of mentalizing leads to distortion and misinterpretation
- The reflex is often not mentalizing, especially in situations of conflict and defensiveness
- Mentalizing involves considering oneself, others, and the relationship as a whole
- Boundaries should be established internally before projecting them outwardly
- Healthy boundaries start from within and can be communicated to others

- Setting boundaries is important and does not make someone a bad friend
- Communicating boundaries effectively is key to maintaining healthy relationships
- Recognizing signs of unhealth in others can help determine the nature of the relationship
- Mentalization, or understanding oneself before others, is crucial for progress and clarity
- Unhealthy maps or patterns can lead to unhealthy relationships
- Understanding and exploring one's own map is critical for personal growth and building healthy relationships.

- The map discussed in the video sets clear and simple ideals, such as agency, gratitude, empowerment, humility, peace, contentment, and delight.
- The generative drive is about doing things in service to learning, knowing, and creating, both for others and ourselves.
- Labels and numbers are not a substitute for understanding ourselves.
- The discussion acknowledges complexity and pitfalls, but ultimately offers hope for improvement in relationships and mental health.
- The video thanks the audience for their support and provides information on subscribing to the podcast and following on social media.
- The video also mentions supplements and offers a newsletter with free podcast summaries and toolkits for improving various aspects of life.

- The importance of internal goodness and relationships in fostering happiness and success
- The benefits of giving and the generative cycle
- Not all relationships are transactional
- The impact of anxiety on relationships and the importance of self-reflection
- The power of the "us" in relationships and the importance of mentalizing
- The significance of setting healthy boundaries and recognizing signs of unhealth in others
- The importance of understanding oneself and building healthy relationships
- The discussion of clear ideals and the generative drive
- The acknowledgement of complexity and hope for improvement in relationships and mental health.

This is episode 3 of a 4-part special series on mental health with Dr. Paul Conti, M.D., a psychiatrist who did his medical training at Stanford School of Medicine and residency at Harvard Medical School. He is the author of the book, “Trauma: The Invisible Epidemic.” Dr. Conti explains how to find, develop and strengthen healthy relationships — including romantic relationships, work and colleague relationships, and friendships. He explains a roadmap of the conscious and unconscious mind that can allow anyone to navigate conflicts better and set healthy boundaries in relationships. We also discuss common features of unhealthy relationships and clinically supported tools for dealing with relationship insecurity, excessive anxiety, past traumas, manipulation and abuse. Dr. Conti explains how, in healthy relationships, there emerges a dynamic of the mutually generative “us” and how to continually improve that dynamic. The next episode in this special series explores true self-care, which can be cultivated through a process of building self-awareness along with other important practices.  
For the full show notes, visit hubermanlab.com.
Thank you to our sponsors
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Timestamps
(00:00:00) Build Healthy Relationships
(00:02:04) Sponsors: BetterHelp & Waking Up
(00:05:01) Healthiest Self in Relationships
(00:10:51) Structure & Function of Self
(00:15:44) Relationships, Levels of Emergence
(00:22:48) Generative Drive in Relationships
(00:35:00) Sponsor: AG1
(00:36:26) Generative Drive, Aggressive Drive, Pleasure Drive
(00:45:16) Romantic Relationships & Matched Generative Drives, Trauma Bonds
(00:53:05) Generative Drive Expression, Libido, Giving & Taking
(01:04:29) Sponsor: Eight Sleep
(01:05:50) Generative Drive in Partnerships
(01:11:16) Libido, Avoidance & Working through Barriers
(01:18:02) Repeating Bad Relationship Patterns, Repetition Compulsion
(01:29:23) Narcissism, Dependence, Attachment Insecurity
(01:34:10) Abusive Relationships, Demoralization
(01:39:37) Oppressors, Darkness, Hope & Change
(01:48:08) Work Relationships, Oppression & Accountability
(01:53:53) Jealousy vs. Envy, Narcissism
(01:59:13) Power Dynamics in Relationships
(02:05:54) Giving vs. Taking in Relationships
(02:09:39) Transactions & Relationships; Family & Generative Drive; Flexibility
(02:19:47) Relationships & Kindergarten
(02:23:04) Anxiety in Relationships, Communication
(02:31:32) The “Magic Bridge of the Us”
(02:37:09) Mentalization, Getting into Another’s Mindset; Navigating Conflict
(02:46:51) Healthy Boundaries
(02:52:08) Self-Awareness, Mentalization
(02:55:28) “Broken Compass” & Self Inquiry, “Map” Analogy
(03:02:25) Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, Social Media, Momentous, Neural Network Newsletter
Title Card Photo Credit: Mike Blabac
Disclaimer

Welcome to the Huberman Lab guest series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

Today marks the third episode in our 4 episode series about mental health with Dr.

Today's episode deals with the topic of healthy relationships, how to define what a healthy relationship is and how to achieve healthy relationships of all kinds, including romantic relationships, interpersonal relationships at work, friendships with family, and of course, with oneself.

This episode builds on the framework of the psychology of self and mental health that was established in the first and second episodes of this series.

However, even if you didn't listen to the first or second episode in this series, today's episode will still contain a lot of information and protocols that you will find valuable for improving your relationships.

That said, if you have the opportunity to listen to the first and second episodes in this series, I think you'll find those to be tremendously beneficial at any point.

Conte discusses what makes for a successful relationship of any kind, as well as tools to improve those relationships.

He discusses various types of bonds, including healthy bonds and trauma bonds, not just in the context of romantic relationship, but in the context of all types of relationships.

We also discuss different challenges that people face in relationships, including abusive relationships.

And we discuss the role of power dynamics, anxiety and boundaries in relationships, both from the perspective of unhealthy relationships, but more importantly, from the understanding and protocols to cultivate healthy relationships.

While there is an abundance of opinions and information out there on the internet these days about relationships, both healthy and unhealthy, today's discussion approaches the topic of relationships through an entirely different lens, which is the lens of the self in terms of one's conscious and subconscious mind and how multiple conscious and subconscious minds through different individuals interact with 1 another in ways that we can see and ways that we can't see.

And all of that framed within the actionable steps that any of us can take to improve our relationship to ourself and to others.

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring 0 cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out all online.

I've been doing therapy for more than 30 years.

While I confess that initially I was forced to do that therapy as a condition for being let back into high school, over time I learned that therapy is a tremendously valuable practice.

In fact, I consider doing regular weekly therapy as just as important as doing regular physical exercise in order to improve one's health.

The beauty of BetterHelp is that it makes it extremely easy to find a therapist that's excellent for you.

And we can define an excellent therapist as somebody who's going to give you a lot of support, but in an objective way, as well as somebody with whom you can have excellent rapport and that can help you arrive at positively transformative insights that you wouldn't have otherwise had.

And with BetterHelp, they make it convenient so that it's matched to your schedule and the other aspects of your life.

If you'd like to try BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com slash Huberman to get 10% off your first month.

Again, that's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com slash Huberman.

Today's episode is also brought to us by Waking Up.

Waking Up is a meditation app that offers dozens of guided meditation sessions, mindfulness trainings, yoga nidra sessions, and more.

By now, there's an abundance of data showing that even short daily meditations can greatly improve our mood, reduce anxiety, improve our ability to focus, and can improve our memory.

And while there are many different forms of meditation, most people find it difficult to find and stick to a meditation practice in a way that is most beneficial for them.

The waking up app makes it extremely easy to learn how to meditate and to carry out your daily meditation practice in a way that's going to be most effective and efficient for you.

It includes a variety of different types of meditations of different duration, as well as things like yoga nidra, which placed the brain and body into a sort of pseudo sleep that allows you to emerge feeling incredibly mentally refreshed.

In fact, The science around yoga nidra is really impressive, showing that after a yoga nidra session, levels of dopamine in certain areas of the brain are enhanced by up to 60%, which places the brain and body into a state of enhanced readiness for mental work and for physical work.

Another thing I really like about the waking up app is that it provides a 30 day introduction course.

So for those of you that have not meditated before or getting back to a meditation practice, that's fantastic.

Or if you're somebody who's already a skilled and regular meditator, waking up has more advanced meditations and yoga needer sessions for you as well.

If you'd like to try the waking up app, you can go to wakingup.com slash Huberman and access a free 30 day trial.

Again, that's wakingup.com slash Huberman.

And now for my discussion about mental health with Dr.

Today, we're going to discuss relationships and that will often focus on romantic relationships, but also relationships between friends, between family members, and inevitably the relationship to self, which is what we really focused on in episodes 1 and 2 of this series.

Episode 1 being all the things that go into a healthy self and how to understand what is unhealthy and healthy in all of us and make adjustments to the unhealthy aspects of our unconscious and conscious through really specific proactive behaviors and patterns of thought.

So really a roadmap to these ideals that we call mental health and understanding of the self.

Today we wanna talk about relationships from the perspective of, of course, how people relate, but I have a feeling it's going to have something to do with, or perhaps almost everything to do with our relationship to understanding ourselves first.

So just to make sure that we're all on the same page, regardless of whether or not people have seen episodes 1 and 2, and certainly people do not need to have seen or listened to episodes 1 and 2 of the series in order to understand today's discussion.

Could you please tell us what is a healthy person?

And how can we ask ourselves the sorts of questions that allow us to determine whether or not we are healthy and where to look in terms of making adjustments if we want to be healthier than we already are, which I have to believe almost everybody, if not everybody, certainly wants to be the healthiest and best expression of themselves so that they can do the most for themselves and for others in

So the linchpin of it all, right, is the agency and gratitude as verbs.

There's a lot of climbing we do to get to the top of the mountain.

Once we're over the top of the mountain, then things are in a better place.

And even though they're 2 words, Agency is of course a word, gratitude is a word, but it doesn't mean that they're separate concepts.

Approaching the world through the lens of agency and gratitude, thought of as 1 thing because they come together and they come together as verbs.

That's what we're aiming for, because that's the thing that we can work towards.

If you think about what comes underneath of that, it takes us back to the 2 pillars and the 10 cupboards.

If we're looking in there enough, we're minding, like what is in my unconscious mind I might not be aware of?

Let me generate some curiosity about my defense mechanisms and my character structure and think about what's salient inside of me.

Like if we're doing all of that, then what we're doing, we're building empowerment, we're building humility, and then ultimately the expression of all of that is the agency and gratitude.

And it's something that we can't have enough of.

Like I say, what's the best amount of that?

Because we're going to engage in the world in the healthiest way.

Because agency and gratitude doesn't mean like we're happy about everything, right?

If there's something negative and we can change that, then we don't feel happy about that.

We, we, the sense of gratitude in me makes me more likely to feel that I can change that, right?

Or to take the chance of trying to change that.

And then the agency part of that concept can come more to the fore and I can make the change.

It's not about forgiving self and others for all sorts of things and not working to make better.

It's about being in the world and being as aware as I can possibly be, including being aware that there are things I'm not aware of.

So, sort of having a healthy respect and an orientation to the world that values truth and values understanding and exploration.

If we do all of that, then we reach the top of the mountain through the agency and gratitude.

And then what builds upon that or what comes from that is the peace, the contentment, the delight, the generative drive being strengthened.

And then the aggressive, or we say aggressive because that's a traditional term, but the aggressive or the assertive, right?

However, whatever word we want to put to that, that drive exists in us in a way that subserves the generative drive.

The same thing with the pleasure drive in us.

It exists in us, but it's subserving the generative drive.

Then all those good things come together, and they come together to help us be as healthy as we can and to stay healthy, right?

Including when tribulation or difficulties come our way so that we stay as best we can in the agency and gratitude as verbs.

And again, there's nothing theoretical about this.

And there are a lot of people who live some of their lives or parts of their lives through that.

And we can aspire to it and we can work towards it.

And if we're the best that we can be, then we're going to be in our relationships the best we can be.

Think about it like you and I have a relationship.

If I can bring my best self to you, to thinking about you, to understanding you, if I can bring the agency and the gratitude, then I'm going to do right by you.

I'm going to mentalize this idea of thinking about what's going on inside of you.

I'm going to bring the best of all of that.

And then because we have a relationship, there's also an us.

There's a me, there's a you, there's something that happens between us.

And I will also bring my best self to that thing that is no longer just me or just you, but that isn't us.

And that applies to all relationships, right?

You can apply that to seeking health in every single relationship in our lives.

What you're saying really speaks to the importance of people taking a real look at themselves, which is not necessarily an inventory of self in the typical sense that we're used to hearing it, but rather through this lens or map of the self that was spelled out in episodes 1 and 2.

And again, for those that are just joining the series now, the map as we're referring to it is available as a downloadable PDF in the show note captions.

People want to get that it's completely 0 cost.

You can just go there and access it or just view it on a screen, print it out, whatever whatever you like.

You certainly don't need to do that because here Again, we're talking about the core elements of that map, which if I understand correctly, arrive eventually at a set of verb states that we're calling agency and gratitude.

Those are not separate, as you pointed out.

Like there's a lot of things going on, but then it all uplifts to something, right?

And if we're doing it in the right way, in the diligent way, then it is like a geyser.

And what it's lifting up on top of it is the agency and gratitude.

and I think it captures it really profoundly.

Well, the stuff that geysers up perhaps deserves a bit of our attention just for a few moments.

You described these 2 pillars that I described as geysering up to agency and gratitude in the best circumstances.

But the best circumstances we wanna remind ourselves and everybody are attainable by looking at what's in those pillars.

Those 2 pillars are the structure of self.

So really understanding something about the structure of self.

So that includes some understanding of the unconscious mind, some understanding of the conscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure, and self.

That was all reviewed and described in episodes 1 and 2, as well as the functions of self, which are more of the verb states, the expressions of the structure of self, self-awareness being the first of those defense mechanisms in action.

And here I'd be remiss if I didn't tell myself and everybody else again that defense mechanisms are not always bad.

They can protect us in very valuable ways.

And then this notion of salience, what we pay attention to, you know, what sorts of scripts are going on in our head about ourselves and others?

How are we interpreting those in our head and to others?

And then most importantly, perhaps to ourselves.

And then our actual behaviors, like what are we doing from the time we wake up until the time we go to sleep at night, and then our strivings, our sense of hopefulness, or perhaps lack of strivings.

And there I am reminded also that nobody does all of these things perfectly all the time.

We all have elements within us that perhaps are not serving to geyser up into agency and gratitude as well as they could, but that all of us have the capacity to look at these 2 pillars and these 10 things that were just listed off as you described them as cupboards that we look into and examine and think about.

And that if we can do that with a skilled clinician like yourself or another psychiatrist or psychologist, terrific.

But even if we don't have access to that, that we can examine within us what is and is not serving to geyser up into agency and gratitude.

We can bring any issue of self to those 2 pillars and the 10 cupboards within them, any issue of self.

And all the functions that you mentioned, they're all going on within that structure of self.

That's what it is when we're being, in the active way of the verb being.

That's what it is, which is why we can bring to it any issue of self, even though, of course, there's tremendous complexity there.

The million things that go on in a second, you know, underneath the surface in the unconscious mind and our defensive structures and how to see them.

But like we're human beings, we're complicated, right?

Like that's okay because we have methods of understanding, we have methods of inquiry, and we can use those methods to make things better.

And that's how we make the geyser as strong as it can be.

Where like maybe some of the water is running counter-current.

Okay, well let's try and have things go all in the same direction, but we don't need things to be perfect for the geyser to spring up and the agency and gratitude to then be uplifted upon it.

So everybody has 1 of these maps, as I understand it.

And therefore, anytime we're talking about relationships, romantic relationships or otherwise, we're talking about the intersection or overlap of those maps in some way.

Maybe even the synergy and the outgrowth of those maps becomes its own map.

I think we'll get to this a little bit later.

When I and most people hear the word relationships in particular romantic relationships, I make a couple of automatic assumptions.

First of all, I have to assume that people are either in a relationship or out of a relationship.

There's probably a third category out there of plurals and other things, but we'll keep it relatively simple.

And most people, I assume, when they search for or enter or entered a relationship, they thought about whether or not they had a resonance with the person, whether or not, you know, there was an intellectual or mutual interest resonance or a physical resonance, You know, maybe something about family history, common goals, etc.

That's typically what people think about.

And then perhaps if people have a bit more of a psychological understanding or they're reading some pop psychology books these days, some of which are pretty good, They might understand something about themselves or the other person being a bit more anxious or a bit more relaxed.

So you'll hear things like anxious, attached, secure, attached, things of that sort.

If we could Just step back from all of that for a moment and examine it through the lens of the maps as you're describing them which exist in all of us and that really are the map to being the best version of ourselves.

If we look at relationships in terms of lists of, you know, where people went to school, if they went to school, are their parents married or divorced?

Do they have trauma that they're aware of or not aware of?

I guess we could call those, and here I'm borrowing language that you used earlier off camera, so I wanna acknowledge that, points of compatibility.

I think that seems like a reasonable place to start.

So if you could, could you talk a little bit about points of compatibility in relationship and how those show up for better or for worse when you encounter people in the clinical setting.

You know, when you see somebody who's in a relationship that's really working for them and is healthy versus if they're in a relationship where it's really unhealthy, presumably there's some knowledge about points of compatibility, but I'm guessing that's not always intuitive.

I think the place we start there is acknowledging what we can know and what we can't know.

So this idea that there are levels of emergence where things at a lower level come together and create something that's new.

We see this throughout science from subatomic particles all the way through to culture.

So someone could know, theoretically, lots and lots and lots about you and lots and lots and lots about you and lots and lots and lots about me.

They don't know if we have shared interests, what we talk about, right?

Like We don't know that about the combination of people.

But we often believe that we can, which then leads to a lot of false metrics of trying to figure things out.

So when we're looking for compatibility, the thought of these very basic tangible things, like in romance, for example, if there's someone who absolutely wants to have a family and there's someone who absolutely does not want to have a family, that would be a reason for those 2 people to not choose 1 another.

So there are these factors, but the factors are all in a sense very evident and very concrete.

If we go beyond that, we say, okay, we can see the obvious, then what we're looking for is really a compatibility of generative drives.

And then that tells you, can these people then get along?

Maybe 1 of them is from 1 side of the world and the other is from the other side of the world, or one's an accountant and the other is a musician.

It doesn't mean that they're built not to get along, or that if they're doing the same thing they're built to get along or if they're they went to college in the same place or they went to college versus not going to college right there's so much there that we we try to build a story on.

And then what we do is we miss the forest for the trees.

And the trees, I think, are the factors that don't matter.

So again, let's think about the factors that do matter.

Person wants to have a family, other person doesn't.

But the trees that mislead us might be, do they have the same level of education?

Do they have the same family structure growing up?

Are they creative or scientific or whatever?

We could look at all of that, but I think then we're making a bunch of trees that mislead us.

If you say, look, do these people come at the world through how much agency and gratitude is there guiding them?

If we match people upon that, then we see, Oh, those people got along and those people didn't.

And then, you know, there are all the other factors like pheromones, right.

And things that we can't understand or like reflexive first impression.

So, so like we get let things develop honoring the truth of what we can't know that when you put 2 people together, you get something that's different than the sum of both people, right?

And the map is informed by things that are on each individual's map.

But what we're looking for are maps that don't have very significant differences around just clear concrete things.

But once we get beyond that, the maps can synergize in all sorts of beautiful and unpredictable ways.

And if both are coming from the perspective of a generative drive that is at the forefront, great!

You put those maps together and see what happens.

Okay, those people don't go out on a second date.

You know, maybe something happens, but it doesn't develop in certain ways.

Okay, those people dated and then stopped dating.

But we set the odds in our favor that the generative drive in each that is at the forefront means that their maps can synergize in ways that can then be beautiful and ways that can maybe bring to both people that which they want.

And I think there's a simplicity to that, that I think if we honor it, it can be very, very helpful, whether it's romances, friendships, of looking at what the truth of it is instead of the factors that we try and gain a false sense of security if we're using them to select upon.

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