- The Huberman Lab Podcast features Andrew Huberman, a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine
- The guest on the podcast is Chris Voss, a former FBI agent and expert in negotiation
- Voss discusses how to have difficult conversations and negotiations in various contexts, including business and relationships
- The importance of paying attention to emotions and being heard accurately in discussions is emphasized
- Physical and mental stamina are discussed in relation to difficult conversations and decision-making
- Voss shares techniques for detecting deception in negotiations
- The podcast aims to provide science-based tools and information to the general public for free

- The speaker had an unusual experience at an airport where an employee went beyond their usual duties to find the speaker's lost luggage.
- The speaker believes that being playful and using certain phrases can influence people to go the extra mile.
- The speaker uses a calm voice to stay composed during tense situations and believes it has a calming effect on others as well.
- Low frequency sounds, like the speaker's voice, can actually change the emotional tone of the listener's brain.
- The speaker mentions a tactic used in Panama and Waco where loud music was played to try and manipulate people.
- The speaker discusses negotiations in positive scenarios, such as friends planning a trip or a romantic couple discussing finances.

- The video discusses the importance of asking questions and knowing what you want before entering negotiations or merging finances.
- The phrase "win-win" can be seen as a red flag and may indicate someone trying to take advantage.
- The concept of hypothesis testing is suggested as a way to approach negotiations and collaboration.
- Catchphrases like "win-win" can signal lack of authenticity or trustworthiness.
- Openers that establish rapport and show generosity are more effective in building relationships and collaboration.

- The speaker emphasizes the importance of generosity in building relationships and achieving success.
- They share a story about a technician in their laboratory who freely lent out equipment and advised against borrowing from others, which ultimately resulted in a positive reputation and minimal conflict when they left the institution.
- The speaker also discusses the value of providing positive reviews and feedback to others.
- They then shift to discussing high-stakes negotiations they experienced in the FBI, including a case where hostages were killed due to lack of collaboration and communication within their own team.
- The speaker concludes by highlighting the importance of understanding human nature dynamics and effectively communicating in challenging situations.

- When negotiating in a hostage situation, it is important to identify the captor's motives and level of seriousness.
- Specific threats and demands indicate a higher level of seriousness and should be taken more seriously.
- The negotiator's role is to make the captor feel like they have gotten everything they could, to prevent being double-dipped.
- In business negotiations or scams, requests for immediate action or urgency are often red flags and should be approached with caution.
- People's desire to help and be a rescuer can be exploited by scammers.

- The speaker received texts from a friend's number asking for money
- They wanted to confirm if it was really their friend, so they made up a story about owing money from a crazy night in Vegas
- The person texting got insulted and stopped texting when the speaker mentioned their wife and mother
- The speaker sent the text messages to the real friend, who found it funny
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of checking the source and being cautious of scams
- They mention a scam where someone pretended to kidnap a person's child and demanded money
- The speaker discusses the importance of asking legitimate questions in negotiations, even in extreme situations like kidnappings
- They give examples of legal practices that involve scaring people into paying money
- The speaker emphasizes the need to assess the seriousness of the other party and ask fair questions to gauge their response
- They explain that how and what questions can reveal a person's thoughtfulness and intentions in negotiations.

- Passive aggressive behavior can be effective in wearing down aggressive adversaries in negotiations
- Johnny Pico, a hostage negotiator, emphasized the importance of exhausting the other side in negotiations
- Asking "how" and "what" questions can tire out combative individuals and reveal loopholes
- The goal is to slow things down and fatigue the aggressive negotiator
- The process involves getting the aggressor to clarify implementation and follow-through
- Verbal commitments and gauging truthfulness can be important in sealing the deal
- There may be a somatic response that signals when someone is lying or when something feels off

- The Huberman Lab Podcast features neurobiology and ophthalmology professor Andrew Huberman and former FBI agent Chris Voss as a guest.
- Voss discusses techniques for difficult conversations and negotiations in various contexts, emphasizing the importance of emotions and being heard accurately.
- Physical and mental stamina are discussed in relation to decision-making and difficult conversations.
- Voss shares techniques for detecting deception in negotiations.
- The podcast aims to provide science-based tools and information for free.
- The speaker shares personal experiences and insights on influencing others, the impact of voice tone, and the importance of asking questions in negotiations.
- The speaker highlights the value of generosity in building relationships and achieving success.
- The speaker discusses high-stakes negotiations in the FBI and the importance of understanding human nature and effective communication.
- Specific strategies for negotiating in hostage situations and identifying red flags in business negotiations or scams are discussed.
- The importance of checking the source and being cautious of scams is emphasized.
- The speaker emphasizes the need to ask fair questions to gauge the seriousness and intentions of the other party in negotiations.
- Passive aggressive behavior and asking "how" and "what" questions can be effective in wearing down aggressive adversaries in negotiations.
- Verbal commitments and gauging truthfulness play a role in sealing the deal, and there may be somatic responses that signal deception.

- The gut is incredibly accurate and can pick up on cues that the brain may not consciously detect
- Olfactory cues, such as pheromones, play a role in our gut instincts
- The subconscious is the real supercomputer, where wisdom and knowledge processing occur
- Humans may have the ability to detect magnetic fields and entrain their heartbeats to the same rhythm as others
- In negotiations, it is important to pay attention to visual cues and gut feelings, but be cautious about making assumptions based on body language alone
- Affective cues, such as changes in tone of voice or movement, can provide valuable information during negotiations

- Negotiating in person allows for more physical cues and information, but can lead to missing cues while processing thoughts.
- In online or text communications, it is best to focus on one point instead of bundling multiple points together.
- A two-line text message can efficiently address and solve a problem, leading to a quick resolution.
- Direct and honest communication is more effective than using a "mud sandwich" approach.
- Ending relationships (romantic or business) requires directness and honesty, but should be delivered in a way that softens the blow.
- Egos may be involved in these conversations, but it is important to consider who is truly being saved by postponing or softening the news.
- Most people have a sense that a firing or breakup is coming, so it is unnecessary to start with small talk.

- The speaker discusses the importance of quickly and gently firing someone, using the analogy of cutting off someone's head.
- They advise firing someone on a Monday rather than a Friday to give them a work week to process and move on.
- It is suggested to warn someone of bad news before delivering it, as people are more resilient when they are prepared.
- The concept of ego depletion is introduced, which refers to the depletion of dopamine when defending one's position for a long time.
- Ego depletion can affect negotiations and business deals, as the person's ego may recharge and cause them to deviate from the agreement.
- The importance of being relaxed and ready for negotiations is emphasized, even in unexpected situations.

- The speaker discusses the importance of readiness and practices for stilling oneself in order to show up as one's best self.
- They mention using small stakes practice for high stakes results, such as throwing out verbal observations or labels during interactions with Lyft drivers, TSA agents, grocery store clerks, etc.
- The speaker shares a personal experience of using a state change trigger to deal with an annoying Lyft driver.
- They emphasize the importance of leaving positive karma in interactions and leaving people better than they found them.
- The speaker discusses the power of asking the question "What do you love about...?" to trigger a state change and gain insight into someone's true self.
- The speaker advises against simply letting people vent and instead suggests actively listening, making observations, and addressing the underlying reasons for their frustration or anger.

- The speaker discusses the importance of being involved in situations where close friends are venting and offering emotional support.
- They mention the negative effects of venting and the need to deactivate negativity to regain emotional stability.
- The speaker talks about their spiritual practices, including prayer and engaging in a spiritual practice regardless of religious beliefs.
- They mention their physical training routine, including weightlifting, martial arts, and cold plunges and saunas for psychological and physical benefits.
- The speaker emphasizes the connection between physical and psychological well-being and the importance of self-care for better performance in all aspects of life.
- They share their experience with a long hostage negotiation and how they were able to sleep at night knowing they did their best and handed off the situation to capable colleagues.

- The speaker feels confident in leaving cases in capable hands and believes in the process of working on kidnappings
- It is important to avoid burning out while working on cases and to take breaks when needed
- The speaker shares a story about a siege in London where a hostage negotiator kept the terrorist on the phone until the SWAT team arrived
- The speaker discusses a hostage situation in Sacramento where the hostages were dehumanized before being shot, emphasizing the importance of humanizing oneself in order to increase chances of survival
- The speaker relates the concept of humanization to animal research, where giving animals names can create a relationship and empathy
- The speaker is working on a documentary about tactical empathy, set to be released next year.

- Gut instincts are highly accurate and can detect cues that the brain may miss
- Olfactory cues, like pheromones, play a role in gut instincts
- The subconscious is where wisdom and knowledge processing occur
- Humans may have the ability to detect magnetic fields and sync heartbeats with others
- Visual cues and gut feelings are important in negotiations, but be cautious of assumptions based on body language alone
- Affective cues, like tone of voice, provide valuable information in negotiations
- In-person negotiations provide more physical cues, but can lead to missing cues while processing thoughts
- Online/text communications should focus on one point for efficiency
- Direct and honest communication is more effective than using a "mud sandwich" approach
- Ending relationships requires directness and honesty, delivered in a softened manner
- Firing someone should be done quickly and gently, preferably on a Monday
- Warning someone of bad news before delivering it helps them be more resilient
- Ego depletion can affect negotiations and business deals
- Being relaxed and ready for negotiations is important, even in unexpected situations
- Small stakes practice can lead to high stakes results in interactions with others
- Leaving positive karma in interactions and asking "What do you love about...?" can trigger positive state changes
- Actively listening and addressing underlying reasons for frustration or anger is important
- Being involved in close friends' venting and offering emotional support is valuable
- Deactivating negativity is necessary for emotional stability
- Spiritual practices and physical training routines contribute to well-being and better performance
- Confidence in leaving cases in capable hands and avoiding burnout is crucial
- Humanizing oneself increases chances of survival in crisis situations
- Humanization can also apply to animal research
- A documentary about tactical empathy is in the works.

- Empathy is about the transmission of information and understanding someone's perspective, while compassion is the reaction to that transmission.
- Empathy is a compassionate act, but it doesn't necessarily mean feeling compassion for someone.
- Empathy is a powerful tool for making someone feel understood.
- Mirroring, repeating 1 to 3 words of what someone has said, is a simple and effective communication tool that helps people feel heard and encourages them to expand on their thoughts.

- Mirroring is a simple and effective technique that can be used to improve communication and understanding.
- The field of neuroscience is starting to explore how brains interact in real-time, but there is still much to learn.
- Hearing our own voice is different from hearing others' voices, and our auditory system actively suppresses our own voice.
- Proactive listening involves calling out and labeling negative emotions in order to diminish their impact.
- Anticipating and addressing negativity in negotiations can help to deactivate negative emotions and create a more positive interaction.
- Calling out a negative emotion in advance can inoculate against it and prevent embarrassment or other negative reactions.
- Emotional detachment and setting high standards can motivate individuals to strive for excellence in their work.

- The speaker respected someone's high standards and would do anything to make them happy with their work.
- The speaker wonders if the person read a book that taught them to communicate more directly.
- The speaker discusses the use of family members in negotiations with hostage takers.
- Family members can be helpful if they say the right things, but it must be carefully orchestrated to avoid causing harm.
- The speaker discusses the importance of understanding family systems in psychology.
- The speaker shares that humor and camaraderie with colleagues helped them cope with the heaviness of their job.
- They also find satisfaction in their work and strive to create a positive environment in their company.
- Humor, hard work, and appreciation for their work have contributed to their mental health.
- The speaker mentions occasional bourbon as a source of enjoyment but emphasizes responsible consumption.

- The speaker is involved in a brand new social media platform called Fireside, which is an interactive podcast and subscription service.
- Fireside offers weekly interactive group coaching sessions where participants can ask questions and receive coaching from the speaker and other members of his team.
- The speaker mentions that Fireside is a way for people to continue improving their negotiation skills after reading his book and taking a masterclass.
- The monthly coaching on Fireside is a more affordable option compared to in-person training events.
- The speaker shares a story about someone who was able to improve their marriage through the coaching provided on Fireside.
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of rapport and context in communication and mentions a companion book to his previous book that is currently being worked on.
- The speaker also mentions other writing projects, online training, a newsletter, and a book for residential real estate agents that have been recently completed.
- The conversation ends with a discussion about the power of simple tools, such as using the phrase "sounds like," in improving communication and interactions between people.

- The speaker believes that the use of sounds like questions is a powerful tool and wishes that all adults and children would learn about it.
- The speaker thanks Chris Voss for his time and praises him for his knowledge and communication skills.
- The speaker encourages listeners to subscribe to their YouTube channel and podcast and leave reviews.
- The speaker mentions their partnership with Momentus Supplements and encourages listeners to check them out.
- The speaker provides links to Chris Voss's website, book, and social media handles.
- The speaker invites listeners to follow them on social media and subscribe to their Neural Network newsletter.

- Empathy is the transmission of information and understanding, while compassion is the reaction to that transmission.
- Mirroring, repeating a few words of what someone has said, is an effective communication tool.
- Neuroscience is exploring how brains interact in real-time.
- Proactive listening involves labeling negative emotions to diminish their impact.
- Emotional detachment and high standards can motivate excellence in work.
- Family members can be helpful in negotiations with hostage takers if carefully orchestrated.
- Humor, camaraderie, and satisfaction contribute to mental health in the workplace.
- Fireside is a social media platform offering interactive coaching sessions.
- Simple tools, like using the phrase "sounds like," can improve communication.

In this episode, my guest is Chris Voss, a former Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) agent who was the lead negotiator in many high-risk, high-consequence cases. Chris has taught negotiation courses at Harvard and Georgetown Universities and is the author of the book “Never Split the Difference.” We discuss how to navigate difficult conversations of all kinds, including in business, romance and romantic breakups, job firings and tense conversations with family and friends. Chris explains how to navigate online, in person and in written negotiations, the red flags to watch out for and how to read body and voice cues in face-to-face and phone conversations. He explains how to use empathy, certain key questions, proactive listening, emotional processing and more to ensure you reach the best possible outcome in any hard conversation. This episode ought to be of interest to anyone looking to improve their interpersonal abilities and communication skills and for those who want to be able to keep a level head in heated discussions. 
For show notes, including referenced articles and additional resources, please visit hubermanlab.com.
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Timestamps
(00:00:00) Chris Voss
(00:02:18) Sponsors: Plunge & ROKA
(00:04:59) Negotiation Mindset, Playfulness
(00:11:41) Calm Voice, Emotional Shift, Music
(00:18:59) “Win-Win”?, Benevolent Negotiations, Hypothesis Testing
(00:28:38) Generosity
(00:32:46) Sponsor: AG1
(00:33:44) Hostile Negotiations, Internal Collaboration
(00:39:40) Patterns & Specificity; Internet Scams, “Double-Dip”
(00:48:15) Urgency, Cons, Asking Questions
(00:54:46) Negotiations, Fair Questions, Exhausting Adversaries
(01:01:09) Sponsor: InsideTracker
(01:02:18) “Vision Drives Decision”, Human Nature & Investigation
(01:07:47) Lying & Body, “Gut Sense”
(01:15:42) Face-to-Face Negotiation, “738” & Affective Cues 
(01:20:39) Online/Text Communication; “Straight Shooters”
(01:26:47) Break-ups (Romantic & Professional), Firing, Resilience
(01:32:16) Ego Depletion, Negotiation Outcomes
(01:37:35) Readiness & “Small Space Practice”, Labeling
(01:45:17) Venting, Emotions & Listening; Meditation & Spirituality
(01:51:41) Physical Fitness, Self-Care
(01:57:01) Long Negotiations & Recharging
(02:02:40) Hostages, Humanization & Names
(02:08:50) Tactical Empathy, Compassion
(02:15:27) Tool: Mirroring Technique
(02:22:20) Tool: Proactive Listening
(02:29:48) Family Members & Negotiations
(02:35:21) Self Restoration, Humor 
(02:39:01) Fireside, Communication Courses; Rapport; Writing Projects
(02:47:45) “Sounds Like…” Perspective
(02:50:54) Zero-Cost Support, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Momentous, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter
Title Card Photo Credit: Mike Blabac
Disclaimer

Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

Chris Voss spent more than 2 decades as an agent with the FBI or Federal Bureau of Investigation, where he was a lead crisis negotiator and a member of the Joint Terrorist Task Force.

Chris is also the author of a phenomenal bestselling book entitled, ''Never Split the Difference.'' In addition, he has taught courses in negotiation at Harvard, at Georgetown, and at the University of Southern California.

As a world expert in all forms of negotiation, today, Chris teaches us about how to hold hard conversations where we are seeking particular outcomes, or perhaps where we don't know what the optimal outcome could be.

He talks about this in the context of business, in the context of relationships, including romantic relationships, but familial and work relationships as well.

And he talks about how we should think about ourselves in the context of negotiations so that we can all arrive at the best possible outcomes.

Indeed, during today's episode, you will learn to pay attention to emotions, not just other people's emotions, but your own emotions in order to determine whether or not you are processing the information you're hearing accurately and equally important, whether or not you are being heard accurately when you are in a discussion of any kind, but especially heated discussions.

In addition, we discuss the role of both physical and mental stamina in the context of difficult conversations, negotiations, and decision-making.

Because in the real world context, oftentimes those can take place, not just within a single conversation, but over the course of several days or even several weeks, months, or years.

Chris also teaches us about deception, that is how to determine if somebody is lying by asking particular types of probe questions.

Thanks to Chris Voss's both breadth and depth of expertise in the negotiation process that he gleaned during his more than 2 decades service in the FBI, as well as his generosity in sharing that information.

By the end of today's episode, you will have an excellent understanding of what the negotiation process is really all about and how to better carry out those negotiations so that they can best serve you and others.

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring 0 cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

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And now for my conversation with Chris Voss.

You are quite the, what we call in science, N of 1 when somebody is a true sample size of 1.

I realize that, yes, you are, because you have this incredible skill set from your time in the FBI.

But you also have an incredible understanding and knowledge of how to communicate about that skill set so that people can glean useful information from it.

You are also the guy that I text or call every once in a while when I've run myself into a jam or when I think I might be in a jam and I won't reveal details, but you tell me whether or not things are okay.

And fortunately, the last couple of times I reached out, you said, you're good.

Well, I have a lot of questions today, but what I'd like to start off talking about is negotiations take many forms, but if we could break those down into their broad categories that will be useful.

But before we do that, I want to know about the mindset that you have when you go into a negotiation and whether or not there are any practices.

I realize you've been in this profession a long time And so perhaps became reflexive to you at some point, but all of us at some point are going to go into negotiations, business negotiations, relationship negotiations, et cetera.

Is there a process of getting one's mind and body right for a negotiation, you know, shifting from more listening and less talking?

Are there any tools that you use on the regular that could be useful for us to keep in mind as we extend into the different categories and negotiations and ways to approach those negotiations?

Yeah, there can be a couple of different.

First of all, just trying to figure out what's really going on is the real issue.

And then how can I get an approach where I'm most likely to get the best possible outcome?

So there's always more than meets the eye.

And there's a certain few cliches, but the real issue is there's always a better deal or there's no deal at all.

So first of all, trying to, my first thing is I want to find out whether or not there's a deal at all or whether or not it's a bad deal.

And then I'm going to walk away really fast because those are going to be complete waste of time.

It's not a sin to not get the deal, it's a sin to take a long time to not get the deal.

Or it's a sin to take a long time to get a bad deal.

I want to know, I'm going to try to figure out real quick whether or not is there a cut throat on the other side of the table, is it somebody I can trust?

I'm leaning a little more inclined to dealing with the difficult people now, as long as I don't give in.

So I wanna diagnose early on what the possibilities are.

Now, If I'm curious, if I'm actually interested.

Now, another aspect of the mindset is, if I'm in a great mood, if I'm just going to be playful, a couple of really huge personal negotiation wins recently was when I was just trying to be playful.

I mean, I was in a great mood and I'm joking around.

And great negotiation is not exciting, it's astonishing.

I'm in a, we're in conversations right now with a possible non-scripted TV show.

And so I was telling the producers, you know, this ain't gonna be real housewives.

For it to make the show properly, there ain't gonna be any screaming.

It's not gonna be bar rescue where we're yelling at people.

We're not gonna be Hell's Kitchen where we're yelling at people.

It's never going to be exciting, but it is going to be astonishing.

You'll get outcomes where suddenly you find yourself in a place like, what in the world?

And so I lose a suitcase in an airport the other day, and I'm walking into the lost luggage place, and I'm in a great mood because I'm home and I'm happy to be home.

And I'm going to get a good night's sleep.

Even though it's late in the day, I'm just happy.

I get ready to walk into the lost luggage store where these people are battered children.

They expect you, they know that you expect them to wave a magic wand and poof, your luggage is going to be there.

So for whatever reason, that's what I say when I walk in the doors, young lady says, how can I help you?

Well, first of all, how you could help me is obvious because I'm in a lost luggage.

And I go, I need you to wave a magic wand.

She ends up walking me out to the carousel, climbing up on the carousel, and she walks down a ramp the luggage comes out of.

And I guarantee you, they're not supposed to do that.

And she sticks her head and she looks around, she comes back out.

And I've never seen any of these people leave the office, let alone walk back to the carousel.

And she disappears into the bowels of the airport, which looks like a superhighway down there, right?

Like God knows what it looks like underneath the airport.

And pretty soon the carousel starts up again and my bag and another bag pops out.

This other poor schmuck is sitting there waiting.

And I'm like, I have never seen anybody do this ever.

Like normally they say, here's a number we'll call you in 24 hours.

And I look around at the, there's another young lady there and I say, you know, please tell her thank you for me.

Cause she, she doesn't come back out for like almost 10 minutes.

And on my way out, she, she comes out the door and she high fives me.

She says, how does that for waving a magic wand?

And I never would have said it to her if I wasn't playful in a moment And I've got a couple of others like when I was just playful and I'm joking with people Almost at my expense.

It's shocking astonishing Well, you can get people to do if you hit them the right way.

I wonder what it tapped into, but it sounds like it might've tapped into her sense that everybody's always asking me for a magic wand kind of ability, but finally somebody just said it directly.

And that would be kind of fun to actually play that role because normally they're restricted to their keyboard and their phone.

On the opposite side of that spectrum, if ever you're feeling tense, stressed, jet lagged, angry.

You know, I can think about negotiations where like people are trying to keep their egos in check.

You know, the breakups, negotiations, there's not necessarily romantic breakups that could include that, but also professional breakups, the dissolution of a contract or something like that.

Like okay, I need to, I mean, I imagine being calm is better than not being calm for most all things.

Well, the late night FM DJ voice that I'm not sure that I coined the phrase, but kind of famous for, to calm you down also calms me down.

So if I get bent out of shape, I will, and the conversation gets heated, I'll switch into that voice with the intention of calming you down, because that's the hostage negotiator's voice.

Like intentionally going to that voice tamps down the negative emotions, which I'm convinced make me dumber in the moment, interfere with my capacity to process information.

Layman's reasons, no scientific, academically rigorous studies that have been in any journals.

Well, after you're done, I'm going to tell you something that will perhaps be astonishing to you as to why there's real neuroscience behind that late night FM DJ voice having an impact on other people's brains.

But yeah, and I'll do that, because it calms me down.

Now, if I can make the shift, the hard part is to shift into a positive mindset.

If I can make that shift, but I can only make it from a calm voice.

I also think it's, the emotions are kind of a rock, paper, scissors sequence.

I don't think you can go from sadness to elation directly.

I think there's something to getting angry to pull you out of sadness.

And I think if you're angry, you've got to go to calm next.

And so, but if I can get out of anger and go to calm, then I can say something to myself like, the reality is this is a luxury problem.

Or I was in a negotiation with a counterpart that I knew was deceiving, lying to me.

And I remember saying to myself, I'm lucky to be in this negotiation.

I mean, they wouldn't be trying to hustle me if we weren't really good, if we didn't have a product that was phenomenal.

So I'm actually lucky to be in this conversation.

So if I can make that next shift emotionally, then I'm good.

with you what I learned recently about sound and emotion.

I'm researching an episode on music in the brain, fascinating topic.

And the auditory system has this property where of course there are neurons, nerve cells that respond to different frequencies of sound.

Low frequency, deeper tones and high frequency, squeals and that sort of thing.

Just like we have neurons that respond to different colors or different angles of light in the room.

But what I learned and I confirmed with a good friend of mine who's an auditory neuroscientist and neurosurgeons, name's Eddie Chang, he was a guest on this podcast previously, is that low frequency sounds of the sort that your voice is, that late night FM DJ voice, are responded to in the brain by neurons, no surprise there, but the frequency that those neurons fire is also low frequency.

In other words, when you speak in your low voice, the other person's brain hears that and starts firing in a low frequency tone.

In other words, it entrains to your voice, not just the timing, but it's actually like, you're essentially playing an emotional piano down in the low keys of their mind.

Now, when you go up to the high frequencies, the neurons can't follow that high frequency.

So there's something special about low frequency sound that actually changes the emotional tone of the people that hear that low frequency sound.

I mean, of course the content of the words matters too, but anyway, there's real neuroscience to support the voice that you were endowed with and that you employed for your work.

Well, then, and then also the point then too, is it's not, the other side is not making a choice.

This is not something 1 can override, except by perhaps plugging their ears.

they're hearing that, their mind is getting shifted toward a state of low frequency oscillation, which is 1 of more calm.

And were you to have a high squeaky chipmunk's voice, you might not have been the negotiator.

You would, although who knows, maybe there'd be another tactic there.

I mean, I think back to the, I guess it was during 1 of the Gulf War campaigns, where they, weren't they trying to squeeze out Saddam and some of his people by playing like Milli Vanilli at high volume for hours and hours.

You know, I was telling you before, the wacky yet fascinating, useless information around terrorism and stuff like that.

I tried that at Panama and for whatever, The military guys, they were playing music and sounds.

And then also among the many stupid things that the FBI did at Waco, then late at night they tried that in the Waco compound too.

And it was just, that was 1 of the things that the hostage negotiators were adamantly against, but they got overruled by on scene command among the many stupid things that were done at Waco.

Hostage negotiators were always against it.

you don't remember Waco, Waco is Branch Davidians, David Koresh, right?

Yeah, there was a Netflix series that was out about it recently that's fair about how it went down.

He eventually set the building ablaze, killed himself and everybody else

Yeah, including a lot of children perished.

There are some FBI agents that have still not gotten over that.

I'd like to talk about some different types of negotiations.

Oftentimes, I think because you're a former FBI negotiator, a terrorist task force, this kind of thing, we tend to focus on the negative negotiations, right?

Breakups, business deals that have gone wrong, people lying, cheating.

What about negotiations that are benevolent?

Let's say that 2 people want to come to a true win-win around what they each see to be their best interests in, let's say, friendship.

2 people are considering fusing finances to some extent or moving in together.

What sorts of questions should people be asking themselves prior to those negotiations?

In particular, is it very important that people know exactly what they want going into a negotiation?

Or I can recall many times when I've gone into life circumstances, knowing I wanted a certain set of feelings or outcomes, but not being extremely specific about, I want this salary, I want to live in a west-facing house on this particular location.

An exploration of potentials, I think, can also take the form of negotiation.

How should people think about approaching benevolent negotiations, like where we're not talking about something tragic happening if it doesn't go through?

It might be a little bit high friction, but let's talk about how to get to a win-win.

Yeah, well, there's a couple of interesting things there.

First of all, the phrase win-win, because win-win is just great collaboration.

I mean, in point of fact, it should be win-win, which might only be emotional win-win.

Now the phraseology win-win, I know that if someone opens a negotiation with me and they say right off the bat, look, I wanna do a win-win deal with you, that correlates extremely highly with someone who's trying to pick my pocket.

So if you use that phrase in the first 5 minutes, I already know where you're coming from.

You're trying to get me to drop my guard.

So This came up on an Instagram post I put up recently, which is essentially watch out for the person that says win-win.

I said watch out for the person that says it.

Also you got to be cautious if you're like some of the win-win mindset, then people set themselves up to just get slaughtered by the person who's expressing a desire for win-win and looking to pick their pocket.

Like if I feel win-win in my heart, you go, let's do a win-win deal.

If I don't watch it, I'm like, okay, what do you want?

And then I find myself giving away the store.

So there's a lot behind the win-win phraseology that you have to have a complete understanding of.

In point of fact, Both sides should feel good about the outcome.

And isn't that the definition of win-win?

But it's how they feel about it more than really what they got.

So in a benevolent negotiation among friends, where are we going to go to eat?

People really just wanna be heard out more than anything else, which operationally seems to be, I don't understand how it's gonna make any difference.

And what's the best way for somebody to feel heard out?

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Chris Voss: How to Succeed at Hard Conversations