- This is the second episode in a series about mental health with Dr. Paul Conte.
- The first episode discussed understanding and assessing mental health.
- This episode focuses on improving mental health.
- Topics covered include self-inquiry, addressing drives, understanding subconscious processing, overcoming hindrances, and cultivating generative drive.
- Dr. Conte provides diagrams in the show notes for further understanding.
- The podcast is separate from Andrew Huberman's teaching and research roles at Stanford.
- Sponsors of the podcast include BetterHelp and Waking Up.
- The structure of self and function of self are key components of mental health.
- The unconscious mind, defense mechanisms, character structure, and self-awareness are part of the structure of self.
- The function of self includes self-awareness, defense mechanisms in action, and decision-making.
- Understanding the structure and function of self can lead to strategies for improvement.

The video discusses the importance of understanding different aspects of ourselves, such as defense mechanisms, salience, behavior, and strivings. It emphasizes the active nature of agency and gratitude, which lead to feelings of peace, contentment, and delight. The video suggests that these states are not passive and can be achieved through self-awareness and active engagement with the world. The example of encountering a puppy is used to illustrate how delight and joy can be found in everyday experiences. The video concludes by highlighting the interconnectedness of agency, gratitude, and the generative drive, and the importance of actively seeking these states in various aspects of life.

- The delight and love felt towards dogs is linked to the generative drive and the act of nurturing.
- Aggressive drives, pleasure drives, and generative drives are discussed as intrinsic motivations in humans.
- Aggression is seen as active engagement and agency, but too little or too much can be problematic.
- Pleasure drives can include relief, food, friendship, and romance, but an imbalance can also create issues.
- The concept of drives alone does not fully explain human behaviors and choices beyond the self.
- The presence of a generative drive, a drive for the beyond self, suggests that humans have a goodness in their hearts.
- The combination of nature and nurture influences the balance of these drives in individuals.
- The assessment of these drives can help understand a person's overall health and address any imbalances.
- The goal is to bring the pillars of these drives into a healthier place and allow for a healthy expression of the geyser of emotions.

- The speaker discusses the concept of building towards a healthy version of oneself, both physically and mentally.
- They compare physical health to mental health, stating that both can be improved by addressing specific components and taking action.
- The speaker criticizes the approach of categorizing and prescribing medication in psychiatry, suggesting that understanding and action are more effective.
- They mention the role of drugs in mental health but emphasize the importance of understanding their appropriate use.
- The speaker introduces the topic of motivation and discusses potential underlying factors that may affect it.
- They highlight the importance of taking action and addressing specific challenges in order to improve mental health and achieve desired states of being.

- The speaker discusses the perspective of a psychiatrist when someone expresses feelings of not wanting to try due to challenges in school, work, or relationships.
- They suggest looking at the person's drives, such as their aggressive, pleasure, or generative drive, to understand their motivation and potential imbalances.
- The speaker mentions that not finding enjoyment or gratification in anything could indicate an issue with the pleasure drive.
- They discuss the phenomenon of young people finding pleasure in activities like social media or video games but not moving forward in life milestones, suggesting a possible imbalance in the generative drive.
- The speaker shares a real story of someone who was unhappy in a high-paying job but found happiness and fulfillment in a lower-paying job that aligned with their generative drive.
- They emphasize the importance of understanding a person's drives and finding balance in order to help them make positive changes.

- The speaker emphasizes the importance of understanding oneself and one's difficulties in order to navigate towards a better life.
- They argue that cognitive behavioral therapy and medication have their roles, but they are not the sole solutions to mental health issues.
- The speaker compares mental health to physical health, stating that better lines of inquiry and asking better questions are key to improving mental health.
- They criticize the current healthcare system for prioritizing convenience and short-term solutions over long-term well-being.
- The speaker highlights the need for a broader perspective and a focus on helping individuals truly understand and make positive changes in their lives.
- They argue that failing to provide effective support and understanding to individuals ultimately harms both them and society as a whole.

- Quality sleep is essential for mental health, physical health, and performance
- Controlling the temperature of your sleeping environment is key to getting a great night's sleep
- The 8 Sleep mattress cover allows you to program the temperature of your sleeping environment
- Using the 8 Sleep mattress cover improved the quality and depth of sleep for the speaker
- The speaker recommends trying 8 Sleep and provides a discount code
- Medications and cognitive behavioral therapy are components of a larger picture for improving mental health
- The speaker discusses a person who made the choice to leave a high-paying job for greater satisfaction
- The person had an unconscious belief that money and a prestigious job were important for happiness
- The person's defensive structures became twisted and distorted, leading to maladaptive behaviors
- Trauma can impact a person's sense of self and agency
- The speaker emphasizes the optimism that the ingredients for success already exist within us

- This is the second episode in a series about mental health with Dr. Paul Conte.
- The episode focuses on improving mental health and discusses topics such as self-inquiry, addressing drives, understanding subconscious processing, overcoming hindrances, and cultivating generative drive.
- Understanding the structure and function of self is important for mental health.
- The video emphasizes the active nature of agency and gratitude in achieving feelings of peace, contentment, and delight.
- Aggressive drives, pleasure drives, and generative drives are discussed as intrinsic motivations in humans, and imbalances can create issues.
- The combination of nature and nurture influences the balance of these drives in individuals.
- The goal is to bring these drives into a healthier place and allow for a healthy expression of emotions.
- The speaker discusses the importance of taking action and addressing specific challenges to improve mental health.
- Understanding a person's drives can help understand their motivation and potential imbalances.
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of understanding oneself and making positive changes in life.
- The speaker criticizes the current healthcare system for prioritizing convenience and short-term solutions over long-term well-being.
- Quality sleep is essential for mental health and the 8 Sleep mattress cover is recommended for improving sleep quality.

The speaker discusses the concept of feeling a sense of loss and being broken when something important is taken away. They analyze a hypothetical person's conscious mind issues, defensive structure, character structure, and level of strivings. The person struggles with making changes and has difficulty taking care of themselves. The speaker emphasizes the importance of self-awareness and understanding the "I" in order to build a sense of self and positive agency in the world. They discuss the impact of internal voices and the need to choose which voices to listen to.

- The person being discussed is experiencing defense mechanisms in action, specifically acting out.
- Acting out is an unhealthy manifestation of aggression and can involve self-sabotage and self-denigration.
- The person's acting out behavior includes drinking and disregarding responsibilities.
- Acting out is a way for the person to express anger towards the world and themselves.
- Unhealthy defenses are easier to engage in than facing and addressing internal issues.
- Acting out can lead to long-term problems and may require drastic measures to recover from.
- Subtle forms of acting out, such as slow self-sabotage, can be particularly dangerous.
- The person in question started to address their acting out behavior through self-inquiry and self-awareness.
- The salience of the acting out behavior was high, indicating its importance in the person's mind.
- Salience refers to what is most apparent and prominent in one's thoughts and attention.
- Internal and external factors can influence salience.
- The person's salience shifted when they became aware of their acting out behavior.
- The salience cupboard refers to the function of self and what is most prominent in one's mind.
- Understanding salience can help identify patterns and address internal states.

- The speaker discusses the influence of high arousal states and competition for attention on our thoughts
- They emphasize the importance of self-awareness and understanding the origins of intrusive thoughts
- Intrusive thoughts can be markers of trauma or underlying issues, but they can also be a sign of something that needs attention
- The speaker suggests a roadmap for dealing with intrusive thoughts, including cultivating self-awareness, changing behaviors, and addressing defense mechanisms
- They describe a case study of a person who successfully dealt with intrusive thoughts and achieved a sense of empowerment and contentment in their life
- The speaker highlights the role of childhood narratives in shaping our thoughts and behaviors.

- Negative messages and experiences from childhood can have a deep impact on our self-perception and choices in life.
- Children internalize negative comments and insults more easily than positive ones, which may be related to a survival instinct.
- Negative narratives about parents or oneself can lead to feelings of worthlessness or inadequacy.
- Early narratives, both direct and indirect, shape our beliefs and aspirations.
- Reflective self-scrutiny is important in understanding and overcoming these internalized messages.
- Identifying and challenging false beliefs is a key step in the process.
- Negative messages can affect various aspects of life, such as relationships and career choices.
- The process of getting rid of these negative messages involves recognizing their presence and questioning the assumptions behind them.

- The speaker discusses a conversation they had with someone about their childhood and internalized narratives.
- They emphasize the power of realizing the absurdity of these narratives and the importance of self-scrutiny.
- The speaker explains that overcoming these narratives involves looking at unconscious thoughts and bringing them to consciousness.
- They mention that intrusive thoughts and negative self-dialogue often stem from prior trauma and require a different approach to address.
- The process of self-understanding and change takes time and effort, but can lead to the dissipation of intrusive thoughts.
- The speaker shares their own experience of overcoming a negative voice in their head through self-reflection and therapy.
- They highlight the importance of recognizing and challenging negative thoughts, and the potential for growth and improvement through right actions and diminishing internal narratives.

- It takes time to engage in right actions and cope with intrusive thoughts
- It is possible to function and engage in healthy ways while dealing with internal narratives
- Suppressing intrusive thoughts is futile, we must embrace them and understand them
- The internal narratives may not always come from denigration, but from other factors
- It is not a search for blame, but rather understanding oneself and the influences of nurture
- The drives of aggression, pleasure, and generativity play a role in our well-being and success
- Drives can be changed through self-knowledge and hard work
- Envy is destructive and can result from high levels of aggression or pleasure drive

- The speaker discusses the concept of feeling loss and being broken when something important is taken away
- The person being discussed is experiencing defense mechanisms, specifically acting out
- Acting out behavior includes self-sabotage and self-denigration
- Understanding and addressing acting out behavior is important for long-term well-being
- The person in question started to address their acting out behavior through self-inquiry and self-awareness
- The speaker emphasizes the role of childhood narratives in shaping our thoughts and behaviors
- Negative childhood narratives can lead to feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy
- Overcoming negative narratives involves self-scrutiny and challenging false beliefs
- Intrusive thoughts and negative self-dialogue often stem from prior trauma and require a different approach to address
- The process of self-understanding and change takes time and effort, but can lead to the dissipation of intrusive thoughts
- The speaker shares their own experience of overcoming a negative voice in their head through self-reflection and therapy
- It is possible to function and engage in healthy ways while dealing with internal narratives
- Understanding oneself and the influences of nurture is important, not a search for blame
- Drives such as aggression, pleasure, and generativity play a role in well-being and success
- Envy is destructive and can result from high levels of aggression or pleasure drive

- Envy can arise when the aggressive drive or pleasure drive is running very high
- The generative drive, which is pro-social and constructive, can help overcome the aggressive drive
- Aggression can manifest in various ways, such as intimidation, manipulation, or passive aggression
- An example is given of a collaboration where aggressive behavior was displayed through passive aggression and entitlement
- Excessive aggression can harm relationships and hinder the generative drive
- The person with high aggression may have a deficit of self and a need to over control
- The person may sacrifice relationships in order to gratify their aggression
- The collaboration ended due to the person's ego and feeling of not being good enough.

- Envy is destructive and can lead to aggression and over-control
- Envy stems from a lack of self-confidence and a desire for control
- People who exhibit narcissistic behavior dominate conversations and lack the ability to engage in mutual interactions
- Narcissism is destructive because it alienates others and prevents meaningful collaboration
- Narcissistic individuals may appear powerful and in control, but they are ultimately unsatisfied and unable to form genuine connections with others.

- Narcissistic behavior is always destructive and often rooted in childhood trauma of not feeling good enough
- Narcissists tend to have partners who support or tolerate their behavior
- A scientist who exhibited narcissistic behavior was known for talking about themselves endlessly and hosting a basketball game where they didn't want anyone to score on them
- Narcissism is about asserting superiority and not allowing others to exceed them
- Narcissistic behavior can be detrimental to the field or society at large
- Narcissistic tendencies can be seen in situations where there is a bounded group with an unbounded authority figure
- Unbounded narcissism and envy can lead to destruction, as seen in examples like Adolf Hitler
- Narcissism is often rooted in childhood trauma and the feeling of not being good enough
- It is unclear if narcissists have insight or the ability to self-reflect constructively.

- The development of narcissism and aggression can be linked to formative life experiences of not feeling good enough
- People with narcissistic personality disorder are deeply insecure and have a strong defense mechanism against vulnerability
- It is difficult for narcissistic individuals to change, but extreme circumstances can sometimes motivate them to do so
- Clinical treatment is often necessary to address narcissism, and a team of clinicians is usually required
- Disengagement and setting boundaries can be effective strategies for dealing with narcissistic individuals
- Other variations of drives include an excessive aggressive drive or pleasure drive, as well as a diminished capacity for pleasure and demoralization
- The goal is to nurture the generative drive and seek balance in all drives

- The balance between aggression and pleasure drive determines our mental state
- Envy occurs when one or both drives are too high, demoralization occurs when one or both drives are too low
- This framework can be applied to various scenarios, both clinical and non-clinical
- Assessing levels of aggression and pleasure drive can be done through questions about motivation, gratification, and impact on others
- The generative drive is important for overall health and should be examined first
- If pleasure seeking is excessive, it can lead to dissatisfaction and addiction
- Social media can drain the generative drive and compete with other drives
- Paying attention to internal and external stimuli, including social media, impacts our mental state and engagement with the world

- Social media can be a drain on our drives and distract us from engaging with the world
- It is a powerful discovery that deserves respect, like gunpowder or nuclear fission
- Social media can negatively impact self-esteem and consume valuable time and energy
- Understanding the balance of drives and addressing underlying issues is key to addressing excessive social media use
- The concept of the generative drive emphasizes pro-social action and cultivating positive experiences
- Psychological well-being should focus on introspection and inquiry, leading to states of agency and gratitude
- Rational aspiration is important in the process of change, recognizing the present state and navigating towards desired goals

- Envy and aggression can arise when certain drives are running very high
- Aggression can manifest in various ways, such as intimidation or passive aggression
- Excessive aggression can harm relationships and hinder pro-social behavior
- Envy stems from a lack of self-confidence and a desire for control
- Narcissistic behavior is destructive and prevents meaningful collaboration
- Narcissists may have partners who support or tolerate their behavior
- Narcissism is often rooted in childhood trauma and feelings of inadequacy
- Clinical treatment is often necessary to address narcissism
- Setting boundaries and disengaging can be effective strategies for dealing with narcissistic individuals
- The balance between aggression and pleasure drive determines our mental state
- Social media can drain the generative drive and negatively impact self-esteem
- Understanding the balance of drives and addressing underlying issues is key to addressing excessive social media use

- The speaker discusses the unhealthy desire to possess things without putting in the necessary effort or work.
- They emphasize the importance of striving for goals and working hard to achieve them.
- The speaker highlights the need for self-awareness, addressing defense mechanisms, and examining behaviors and strivings.
- They mention the importance of empowerment, humility, agency, and gratitude as verbs in order to find contentment and delight.
- The concept of the generative drive is emphasized as a positive force for personal growth.
- The speaker expresses gratitude for the provided framework and its actionable nature.
- They mention the upcoming discussion on relational aspects of human existence and building healthy relationships.
- The speaker encourages support for the podcast through subscriptions, reviews, and checking out the mentioned sponsors.
- They provide information on supplements and the Neural Network Newsletter for additional resources.
- The speaker concludes by expressing gratitude for the interest in science.

- Unhealthy desire for possessions without effort or work
- Importance of striving for goals and working hard
- Need for self-awareness and examining behaviors
- Importance of empowerment, humility, agency, and gratitude
- Emphasis on generative drive for personal growth
- Gratitude for framework and upcoming discussion on relationships
- Encouragement to support podcast and check out sponsors
- Additional resources: supplements and Neural Network Newsletter
- Gratitude for interest in science.

This is episode 2 of a 4-part special series on mental health with Dr. Paul Conti, M.D., a Stanford and Harvard-trained psychiatrist currently running a clinical practice, the Pacific Premiere Group. Dr. Conti explains specific tools for how to overcome life’s challenges using a framework of self-inquiry that explores all the key elements of self, including defense mechanisms, behaviors, self-awareness and attention. We also discuss our internal driving forces, how to align them and ultimately, how to cultivate a powerful “generative drive” of positive, aspirational pursuits. Dr. Conti also explains how to adjust your internal narratives, reduce self-limiting concepts, overcome intrusive thoughts, and how certain defense mechanisms, such as “acting out” or narcissism, show up in ourselves and others. The next episode in this special series explores how to build healthy relationships with others.
For the full show notes, including articles, books, and other resources, visit hubermanlab.com.
Thank you to our sponsors
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BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/huberman
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Timestamps
(00:00:00) Improve Mental Health
(00:02:19) Sponsors: BetterHelp & Waking Up App
(00:05:26) Structure & Function of Healthy Self 
(00:16:25) Agency & Gratitude
(00:21:14) Aggressive Drive, Pleasure Drive, Generative Drive
(00:30:00) Physical & Mental Health Similarities, Verb States
(00:37:05) Sponsor: AG1
(00:38:32) Lack of Motivation, Drives
(00:43:06) Video Games/Social Media & Distraction, Generative Drive
(00:51:46) Asking Better Questions, Psychiatric Medicine, Physical Health Parallels
(00:59:10) Sponsor: Eight Sleep
(01:00:30) Self-Reflection & Structure of Self “Cupboards”, Trauma & Agency
(01:08:53) Feeling Stuck, Defense Mechanisms & Sublimation, Character
(01:13:58) Self-Reflection & Function of Self “Cupboards”, Self-Awareness
(01:19:24) Defense Mechanisms & “Acting Out”
(01:26:43) Salience, Intrusive Thoughts
(01:31:24) Self-Reflection, Behaviors & Strivings; Roadmap Forward
(01:38:25) Internal Narratives, Childhood
(01:44:44) Internal Narratives: Self-Scrutiny & Overcoming; Trauma
(01:55:18) Time Required for Change, Understanding Intrusive Thoughts
(02:03:13) Self-Reflection on Internal Drives; Envy
(02:09:56) Generative Drive; Strong Aggressive Drive & Envy
(02:21:50) High Aggressive Drive & Social Relationships, Narcissism
(02:28:43) Narcissism, Destruction, Envy
(02:37:18) Narcissism & Childhood, Change
(02:41:26) Engaging with Narcissists, Disengagement
(02:44:47) Demoralization, Learned Helplessness
(02:49:34) Self-Inventory of Drives, Optimization
(02:56:09) Social Media & Salience, Generative Drive
(03:03:21) Rational Aspiration
(03:13:16) Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, Social Media, Momentous, Neural Network Newsletter
Title Card Photo Credit: Mike Blabac
Disclaimer

Welcome to the Huberman Lab guest series, where I and an expert guest discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life.

I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine.

Today's episode marks the second episode in our 4 episode series with Dr.

The first episode in the series dealt with how to understand and assess your level of mental health.

Today's episode is about how to improve your mental health.

I do want to emphasize that you do not need to have heard or seen the first episode in order to understand or glean important information from today's episode about how to improve your mental health.

But I do encourage you to go and listen to the first episode at some point, if you have not already.

Today's episode deals with several topics important to all of us, as well as protocols to improve one's mental health.

For instance, you will learn how to guide yourself through a process of self-inquiry in which you address certain key questions about your drives, your level of aggressive drive, pleasure drive, and the so-called generative drive.

These are essential things to understand about oneself, if you want to guide yourself toward your aspirations, and if you want to understand how your subconscious processing is influencing your thoughts and your behaviors and your feelings in ways that sometimes serve your aspirations and in other ways that can hinder your aspirations.

Conte shares with us a way of assessing our internal narratives, as well as a way of creating a constructive self-awareness and an understanding of where those narratives and that self-awareness stem from in our childhood so that we can navigate forward with the greatest sense of agency.

We also talk about how to move past common hindrances to improving one's mental health, such as overcoming intrusive thoughts.

And perhaps most importantly, today's episode provides information and protocols that anyone can use to cultivate their generative drive, which is a hallmark of mental health.

Paul Conte has generously provided a few diagrams that we include as PDFs in the show note captions.

They are completely 0 cost to access And they can help you understand some of the material that was discussed in the first episode of this series, as well as the current episode about how to improve your mental health.

And while those simple PDF diagrams are certainly not necessary in order to understand the material in today's discussion or in the other discussions of this series, many people find them useful.

So I encourage you to check out those links in the show note captions.

Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford.

It is however, part of my desire and effort to bring 0 cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

In keeping with that theme, I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast.

BetterHelp offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out online.

I personally have been doing weekly therapy for more than 30 years.

And while that weekly therapy was initiated, not by my own request, it was in fact a requirement for me to remain in high school.

Over time, I really came to appreciate just how valuable doing quality therapy is.

In fact, I look at doing quality therapy much in the same way that I look at going to the gym or doing cardiovascular training, such as running as ways to enhance my physical health.

I see therapy as a vital way to enhance one's mental health.

The beauty of BetterHelp is that they make it very easy to find an excellent therapist.

An excellent therapist can be defined as somebody who is going to be very supportive of you in an objective way, with whom you have excellent rapport with, and who can help you arrive at key insights that you wouldn't have otherwise been able to find.

And because BetterHelp therapy is conducted entirely online, it's extremely convenient and easy to incorporate into the rest of your life.

So if you're interested in BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com slash Huberman to get 10% off your first month.

That's BetterHelp spelled H-E-L-P.com slash Huberman.

Today's episode is also brought to us by waking up.

Waking up as a meditation app that offers dozens of guided meditation sessions, mindfulness trainings, yoga, Nidra sessions, and more.

By now there's an abundance of data showing that even short daily meditations can greatly improve our mood, reduce anxiety, improve our ability to focus and can improve our memory.

And while there are many different forms of meditation, most people find it difficult to find and stick to a meditation practice in a way that is most beneficial for them.

The waking up app makes it extremely easy to learn how to meditate and to carry out your daily meditation practice in a way that's going to be most effective and efficient for you.

It includes a variety of different types of meditations of different duration, as well as things like yoga nidra, which placed the brain and body into a sort of pseudo sleep that allows you to emerge feeling incredibly mentally refreshed.

In fact, the science around yoga nidra is really impressive showing that after a yoga nidra session, Levels of dopamine in certain areas of the brain are enhanced by up to 60%, which places the brain and body into a state of enhanced readiness for mental work and for physical work.

Another thing I really like about the Waking Up app is that it provides a 30-day introduction course.

So for those of you that have not meditated before or getting back to a meditation practice, that's fantastic.

Or if you're somebody who's already a skilled and regular meditator, Waking Up has more advanced meditations and yoga needer sessions for you as well.

If you'd like to try the Waking Up app, you can go to wakingup.com slash Huberman and access a free 30-day trial.

Again, that's wakingup.com slash Huberman.

And now for my discussion about mental health with Dr.

In the first episode of this series, you laid out for us in a very structured way you know, what true mental health looks like, essentially what we should all be aspiring to.

And you touched on these themes of agency and gratitude as a verb states, really ways of being in the world that allow everybody to have some sense of wellbeing, to have some sense of themselves in a way that is kind to themselves and to others and really to feel good and do good in their life.

And without question, this is what people want, right?

You also spelled out for us these 2 pillars, the structure of self and the function of self that consists of a number of different things that from which geyser up or kind of, you know, give rise to these feelings of empowerment, humility, agency, and gratitude.

And reminded us several times that when we are challenged, when we're not doing as well as we would like, that we need to look back to the structure of self and the function of self and ask specific questions in order to arrive or re-arrive at the sense of agency and gratitude.

I think it would be wonderful for us if you could just recap the overall model because it has the components that I just mentioned but there's some subtlety and some really key aspects of these pillars of structure of self and function of self.

I think if people keep in mind for today's episode, which is about challenges that people commonly face, and even if you will, phenotypes that we see commonly out there for people that haven't heard of phenotypes, phenotypes are the typical appearance of something.

So there is the phenotype of the anxious person, the phenotype of the person who just can't seem to get out of a rut.

There's the phenotype of the traumatized person.

And these things play out differently in different individuals, men and women, boys and girls.

But we're going to visit many of the most common phenotypes out there and think about how to do better, be better, feel better through the lens of the model that we spelled out in episode 1.

And of course, if people have not seen or heard episode 1, today's discussion will still be entirely accessible to them.

So in keeping with that, if you could just give us an overview of what this structure of the healthy self looks like as a roadmap for where we're all headed today.

Revisiting the pillars is I think the best place to start because there really are routes to understanding.

And if we understand, then we can strategize, we can make change, right?

So the first pillar, the structure of self starts with the unconscious mind, right?

This incredibly complicated biological supercomputer that's firing a mile a minute underneath the surface in us and is throwing up to the surface all sorts of thoughts and ideas and states that then the conscious mind apprehends and our awareness comes into play.

And then we have defense mechanisms that sort of rise up from the unconscious mind, and they circle and sort of gird themselves around the conscious mind, which they can do in an unhealthy way, or in a healthy way, or anything in between.

And then the character structure is sort of the nest around all of that.

And it's from the character structure that we are engaging in the world in the ways that we're engaging.

It's our active engagement with the world around us.

And the idea is that the self grows out of that.

It grows out of that nest sitting on top of the unconscious mind to the conscious mind rising above the defense mechanisms and the character structure.

And if we go back to that when we're trying to understand ourselves, you know, trying to understand states of health as well as states of unhappiness or states that aren't healthy.

By going back and looking at the structure, we can learn a tremendous amount.

And the other side, the other pillar is the function of self and it really starts with the self-awareness.

The awareness that, hey, there is an I, right?

These are 24 hours in the day are gonna pass today and I'm gonna be doing 1 thing or another.

I'm to some very significant extent deciding how am I gonna engage in the world around me during that time, right?

So on top of that are the defense mechanisms in action.

So defense mechanisms, remember, are unconscious.

So there's a lot then going on inside of us that's determining sort of the field set of options, right?

There may be a lot of automaticity that narrows down the set of options of what we may entertain, what we may be aware of, what we may decide.

And that could happen for better or for worse, depending upon the health of the defense mechanisms.

So the idea then we would next visit, Okay, what are we paying attention to?

And we have to not pay attention to many, many, many, many things in order to pay attention to whatever our attention is alighted on at the moment.

So it's a complex process And it's worth looking at very closely if we want to understand ourselves.

So after thinking about the defense mechanisms in action, the unconscious aspects of how we're engaging with the world, then next to consider is salience, which is sort of where does the mind arrive at at rest?

What are all the things we're not paying attention to in order to pay attention to something?

So there's so much to understand about salience.

And then the next step beyond that is understanding behavior, right?

How are we engaging with the world around us?

And then sitting on top of all of that are our strivings.

So we have a sense of wanting something in the world around us.

What is that and how are we trying to get to it and how does it make us feel?

So if we look at the 10 elements, the 5 under the structure of self and the 5 under the function of self, then what we're really looking at is sort of like looking at 10 cabinets.

And if we're trying to understand ourselves, whether we're trying to just generally understand ourselves or we're trying to get at a problem, then looking at all 10 of those cabinets makes sense.

Some of them will be bare, meaning that they may seem to have very little to do with the problem we're bringing.

We may be led back to that cabinet and there may be something there.

But what usually happens is if we look in all 10 places, we find a couple where there's some rich material to explore.

Sort of the X marks the spot and then we go and we dig there, the sort of mixed metaphors.

We dig in the cabinet where we're going to find something, right?

And then it leads forward a process of understanding.

And if we're bringing those things into line where we have a healthy structure of self and a healthy function of self and we're aware of all of this and we're working on it, we're self-aware and we're paying attention to everything built on top of that, then what we end up with is a sense of humility because 1 cannot be anything but respectful, compassionate, understanding the complexity of all of this and understanding how does it manifest itself in us.

And just the very fact that we can wake our ways in the world is so impressive and in a way I think it brings to us a respect, just a respect for being here, navigating the world.

And I think of that respect is born humility, the complexity of us, the fact that millions of things are going on underneath the surface, millions of neurotransmission and endocrinological function.

I'm not even aware of it and then it kicks up to the surface.

Generates a tremendous amount of respect for the complexity And also the diligence and perseverance it takes us to navigate through the world.

And I think built upon that understanding is a sense of humility and a sense of empowerment.

And the humility and empowerment in action, right?

And agency and gratitude, as you said at the beginning, we're seeing as verbs, right?

It's through the lens, so to speak, of agency and gratitude that we're actively living.

And again, I would put forth that when we look at measures of human happiness, right, across disciplines and across time, this is always what we see, is some way of describing how agency and gratitude together as verbs manifest and then create happiness.

It's the state that we're seeking to be in, right?

Because from that state of active agency and active gratitude, we achieve what it is that I think we're really searching for.

And you know, there are infinite words throughout human history to describe what that is.

We might choose to use words like peacefulness, a sense of peace, a sense of contentment, being delighted by things, like just being amazed and impressed by things in the world around us.

Like this is a state that we're striving for.

And I think when people talk about happiness and what we're really trying to get to, it's this, right?

But it's not that these things are passive, right?

These things are coming from the active agency, the active gratitude, and they're then interacting with a generative drive within us.

We have an aggressive drive, we have a pleasure drive.

Like this has been thought about now for a long, long time within mental health and validated in a lot of ways.

But what hasn't been validated is that they're the only things, right?

We see human beings wanting better for themselves and for the world around them.

We see acts of kindness that seem to be rooted to nothing other than the act of kindness.

We have within us a drive to know, to understand, to learn, to make better.

And that has been described as many, many things across human history.

But I think the words we might choose are generative drive, a drive to create and to make better.

And it's the generative drive as something active within us, right?

That is then aligning with agency and gratitude, right?

The active ways in which we express ourselves and then that all together brings us the peace, the contentment, the sense of delight.

Sometimes that may exist in us in a state of rest, right?

But very often it's existing in us in a state of activity, right?

And that's why people find, you know, the quote unquote happiness, like what people are seeking, not just in, you know, meditation.

Sometimes we can find it there, but people also find it in action, right?

They find it in doing that thing that they love to do or taking care of someone and learning something.

So when we look at all of this, we can then have a route of understanding what is going on inside of us and how we can make the changes that let us be in this state, which is really the state that we're seeking.

I really appreciate that you highlight that agency and gratitude are verb states from which peace, contentment, and delight emerge.

And also the way that you explain the generative drive that is distinct from aggressive drives and pleasure drives that exist in all of us.

You know, I am smiling because a number of examples of peace, contentment and delight while in action come to mind.

I mean, for me, podcasting and in particular, preparing for a podcast, trying to mine the literature and figure out, you know, where the gems reside and where the confusion could emerge.

And all of that brings about such peace, contentment and delight for me, but it's anything but passive.

It's likewise, yesterday I had the experience of running into a puppy.

It's been a while since I've owned a dog and dogs are delightful.

I had the experience of seeing you light up when you ran into the puppy.

And I'm still buzzing from that short interaction with the puppy downstairs, the Waymariner puppy.

It just that, I don't know why, but I just delight in animals of most all kinds, not a fan of reptiles, sorry, reptile fans, so much, but I just drive so much energy from it.

And it felt like life energy and the way the animal is sort of intentionally scattered is amusing to me as compared to the dog that he will eventually be, which is going to be more linear in his thinking.

Like it encapsulates so much of the other things I love, like brain development, et cetera.

Anyway, I highlight those examples because There's nothing passive about it.

And it intersects with other delights and joys.

And I think that as you describe agency and gratitude, peace, contentment, and delight in these generative forces, as well as other forces that exist in us, I think it's really critical that people understand that these are not states that you sit down and place yourself into, although perhaps 1 could through reflection or meditation or waking up from a really great night's sleep, things of that sort.

But that these are things that we can find ourselves awash in if we are doing the right things.

And those things can oftentimes be very challenging.

So assuming I understand the way the model is spelled out correctly, I'm more and more delighted at the fact that this is not just accessible in 1 domain, but is accessible in many, many different domains for everybody.

This is not something unique to my experience, even though I give examples for my own life, but that we really all do have access to this if we're looking in those cupboards, those 10 cupboards and asking the right questions.

And to maybe comment even a little further on the experience of you and the dog, right?

So it was an experience of delight, right?

And you enjoyed it and brought a sense of peace and contentment, like all of that happens, right?

Like I believe there's a strong sense of agency in you that you are enacting.

There's a strong gratitude in you that you're enacting.

You're handling your life in a way and also for all of us, good things always come with good fortune, but it comes with our strivings and our achievements that You're in a place to delight in that, right?

If you're unhappy, like, I don't like what I'm doing, I'm angry, I'm frustrated, right?

Then there's no room in you to find the delight, right?

And the delight that you find is also very much linked to the generative drive, right?

It makes me think of how you loved and nurtured Costello.

So you have it in you to love and nurture a dog.

And you have done that in a really wonderful way.

And that generative drive is part and parcel of the delight you feel when you see a dog.

Because you love dogs and you think about nurturing and it all comes together.

The agency and the gratitude expressed as verbs puts you in a position to have that sense of delight which is so intertwined with your generative drive, with a sense of caretaking, a sense of creating the beyond self, because although you enjoyed and loved Costello, you enjoyed and loved his happiness.

And I think it's interesting because in some ways it's a simple example, but like that's life.

You know, Life has its big moments, but so much of our lives are the smaller moments that link together.

And I think that smaller moment becomes a big example.

I appreciate that you mentioned Costello.

For listeners of this podcast that have tuned into early episodes, Costello was the source of the background snoring.

For those of you that haven't, you can go check.

He's a, was a 90 pound English bulldog mastiff who had many skills, the best of which was snoring.

So in addition to the generative drive, which is something that we certainly want to talk more about today.

You mentioned these other drives, aggressive drives and pleasure drives.

And much of what we're talking about today is going to be where people can go wrong or where people struggle.

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