In 2010, Justin McLeod was in business school, still trying to get over a bad breakup that had happened years before. Determined to solve his own problem and convinced that the best way to meet people was through friends of friends, he built an app to replicate that experience. Gradually, Hinge grew into a streamlined swiping platform that yielded mixed results: good dates, bad hookups, mismatched swipes, and missed opportunities. Disappointed with this outcome and inspired by a sudden twist in his own love life, Justin redesigned Hinge as an app for finding meaningful relationships, with the tag line "designed to be deleted." Today, Hinge is owned by Match Group and is one of the most popular dating apps in the U.S.




This episode was produced by J.C. Howard, with music by Ramtin Arablouei

Edited by Neva Grant, with research help from Daryth Gayles.




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Black perspectives haven't always been centered in the telling of America's story.

Now we're taking center stage, introducing NPR's Black Stories, Black Truths, a collection of black led stories from NPR's podcasts.

Search NPR Black Stories Black Truths wherever you get your podcasts.

And before we start the show, I recently heard a great business story from the music world.

I was interviewing the rapper Macklemore and he took me back to a time when record labels were offering him millions of dollars and he had to make a choice whether to stay independent with more risk and more reward or take the upfront cash and the security that comes with that.

To hear how it played out, check out my interview with Macklemore on my other podcast, The Great Creators.

Just search for The Great Creators with Guy Raz wherever you listen to podcasts.

And for today's show, we are running an interview from the archives that is so full of good stories and so full of great lessons that I'm going to stop talking right now so we can get straight to it.

When we did the relaunch, my first instinct was obviously to like, go raise money.

So I was talking to every VC, but no 1 would give me money.

I had this like 1 investor that was really holding out for, And I remember the partner at the VC firm called me and she was like, you know, we've never seen a company that was cool and then went away and then was able to come back and we just can't do it.

Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

the show today, how the 1 that got away led Justin McCloud to build the dating app Hinge, and how Hinge led him to the love of his life.

In 2019, A very distinguished, peer-reviewed academic journal published a paper about human courtships.

The study, led by Stanford sociologist Michael Rosenfeld, concluded that most romantic relationships now begin online.

If you are, say, under 35, this may not come as a huge surprise.

Pretty much everyone you know either uses or has used or has at least downloaded some kind of dating app.

But to anyone older, say people over 40, this study may come as a shock because most of them met their partners at churches or workplaces or school or a party or through a mutual friend or at a bar.

And sure, you can still meet your future life partner in any of those ways, but the bottom line?

Online dating now seems like the default, the norm, the path of least resistance.

And today, dating apps alone are a $3 billion a year global business.

So how does 1 app stick out from another?

Well, when it comes to 1 particular app, Hinge, the company's tagline is designed to be deleted, which at first glance sounds like an unpromising business model.

But when you think about it, what Hinge is basically trying to tell you is, we're going to help you find the 1 and then you won't need us anymore.

Now, like any successful business, Justin McCloud built hinge on relationships, relationships with users and investors and employees.

But I think of all the founders we've had on the show, Justin's personal relationships, and 1 relationship in particular, were inextricably linked to the launch and very identity of his brand.

Now, I don't wanna give too much away here because you have to hear his story to believe it, but in a sense, Justin's own romantic life became a kind of litmus test for the way he hoped hinge users would approach dating.

Not just as a frenetic swipe left, swipe right kind of a game, but a serious, thoughtful, intentional first step towards something lasting and long-term.

And the story of how Justin essentially turned his life experience into a brand is in some ways so dramatic, so implausible, that you'd half expect to see it on a TV show or in a movie.

Anyway, Justin grew up in Louisville, Kentucky.

He was an only child who attended Catholic school.

And so even like literally in second grade when all the boys would be playing sports, I would be like hanging out with the girls.

I just, I just, and if I had to play sports, I would usually fake an injury pretty early so that I could be nursed back to health by the girls.

So I think I was, I don't know, something about me always, I wasn't like a guy's guy.

Like you're kind of hanging out mostly with girls or did that start to change?

Well, when I was in seventh grade, I had this girlfriend, actually.

I had a girlfriend fifth, sixth, and seventh grade.

And then 1 day in English class, she just turned around in her desk and dumped me.

And also at my school, because it was so small, it was a little bit clicky.

And I was sort of like kicked out of the cool kids group.

And so for seventh and eighth grade, it was like, it was just torture.

And I was supposed to go to this high school.

It was like a feeder for a big Catholic high school in Louisville.

And I just decided like, I'm going on a different path.

And I chose a small private school in Louisville.

And let's be honest, seventh grade, you're not at your most sophisticated in life yet.

I know that sounds so silly, but I just was so heartbroken and I was so traumatized by the experience and like the social isolation that followed.

I was just like, I'm never gonna let that happen to me again.

And I think I just determined that like, I was gonna be cool.

And so I turned into a completely different person when I entered high school.

I mean, I was actually, I mean, I definitely had a troublemaker class clown, got a lot of detentions and things in grade school, but it was always kind of like good natured, funny, fun, or like not doing my homework or being late to class.

And when I got to high school, There was like a senior there named Billy who I like idolized and he was like a big drinker and a big partier.

And I literally remember the first weekend before school started my freshman year, we went to a field hockey game, which was the it sport at my high school.

And there was like this big party later that night.

And I knew the cool kids were going and I went home and this is, I mean, this is reflective of who I was at the time.

I went home to my mom and dad and I said, there's gonna be a party tonight, there's gonna be drinking, I wanna go.

Because I was like really honest, I was like, I was really earnest.

And I argued with them for like 2 and a half hours probably.

And finally my dad drove me to the party and I got dropped off.

And I remember that night I had 2 beers and 2 shots and I was floored and like passed out in a pool house.

And I woke up the next morning and I just felt like a golden god.

I was, I just like thought that was the coolest thing.

And that began a career at high school of being the center of a party scene.

I mean, you must have been good enough at school, right?

Well, I had this other side of me that was still an overachiever.

Like, In high school, I got both the most attentions in history and I took the most advanced placement classes.

I was the captain of the tennis team, I was the graduation speaker, so I had that whole side.

It's not like I was just like partying and not doing any work.

And I actually really reveled, I think it was a big part of my identity to be able to do both, to be able to be this like overachieving person, but also at the same time have this troublemaking party side.

So you, you go to college, you went to Colgate University, which is a pretty small place in rural, sort of upstate New York.

And I guess from what I understand, like you continued your kind of approach to life, I guess.

I think I let the overachiever go to the wayside and I doubled down on the partying.

I mean, I remember around March of my freshman year, I woke up 1 day and I reflected and I was like, I have not gone to bed sober this year.

And I actually went in March or April of my first year I actually went to go see a drug and alcohol counselor at Colgate and she was like you know I think you might have a problem with alcohol and drugs and I think maybe you should stop Doing alcohol and drugs and I looked at her and I was like, don't you think that's a bit rash?

I just wanted to like come and talk about my feelings.

I didn't anticipate having to just stop and so I didn't go back to see her.

Except that I then got referred back to her when I got written up 3 times in 1 night, like a few weeks later, and she was like, I've already met this kid, he needs help.

And that's how I spent my first summer after college and rehab all summer.

It sounds like you were a kid exposed to this early on and you just, a combination of maybe you had a sort of a predisposition to addiction plus you were young and you didn't quite know how to handle it or how to Moderate your behavior and and so it combination of that and addiction really kind of took over

Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it.

I think going back to what I was saying before I was a pretty sensitive kid and I think I had a lot of emotions and I think I didn't really know how to Express them in a productive way Yeah, and when I felt overwhelmed it just felt the easiest way was still like overwhelmed uncomfortable feelings with this better feeling of getting high or drunk

What are your Were your parents aware of it?

And if they were, I'm assuming they were worried.

You know, I was really good at holding it all together, though.

I have like a 3.7 GPA and I'm taking 400 level courses my first year.

I figured out over time how to hide it and how to get away with it.

you met somebody who you started to date, named Kate.

And I guess you guys dated basically throughout college, right?

I met Kate her first day of her first year, and it was my first day of my second year, so I'd just gotten out of rehab, and Kate was like the polar opposite.

Kate showed up to school, never had a drink, never kissed a boy, so like very different human being than me.

And my roommate had gone out in search of like finding some girls like the very first day of school, right?

So he's like going out like and he finds these couple girls out on the quad and invites them back to our place.

And he's walking up the stairs with them and there I am, passed out in the stairwell, like literally on a landing in the stairwell.

She'd never seen a passed out person in her life.

She was in trouble just for being around me.

But later that year, she and I had a class together and we would sit together sometimes and she developed a little bit of a crush on me.

And 1 night, she came over to my dorm room.

We were chatting for a little bit, and she asked me to walk her home, and I walked her home.

And we had our first kiss that night, and we were just inseparable after that.

But I guess shortly before you graduated from college you and Kate split.

Was that your decision or was that her decision?

Well we had a, we'll say rocky relationship as you could imagine trying to be with someone like me and someone like Kate.

And we had this really strong personal connection and bond and really loved each other.

I mean, really just were really attracted to 1 another and like magnets to 1 another.

But it was also tumultuous because I was always going out and getting into trouble.

And so we broke up and got back together like 6 or 7 times during college.

And then I almost immediately regretted it.

I wanted to call her like 2 weeks later and I just said I have to stay out of her life Because I just kept interrupting it and messing it up and then leaving again.

So I just vowed to like not contact her anymore All

right, so 2006 you graduated college you guys are split and that's the end of your relationship and and You obviously had to kind of deal with sobriety.

On graduation day I woke up and I'd been out partying the night before and I was I woke up at like a stranger's house and I had to get back home in order to shower off and meet my parents who were gonna come over and meet me.

And I was walking home that morning and I just thought to myself, it feels like the steering wheel on my life is broken.

I just had this innate sense that I was like supposed to go do something big and I held on to this belief that I was like destined for success and I was gonna do all these great things.

Where did that idea come from by the way?

Only child syndrome, perhaps, I'm not sure.

But I was looking at my life at that point, and I was like, God, I keep wanting to go in this direction, And yet every day I wake up and go this other direction and I feel like I do not have control.

You know, I hadn't gotten the job that I wanted.

I was taking some other random job in DC that I didn't really want.

I'd lost the girl, you know, it felt like, didn't seem like I was on track for success.

And I just vowed that morning to like stop, and I did.

Well, you know, I participated in 12-step programs And I like really threw myself into work.

I mean, in some ways you're really lucky that this happened early to you in your life and you were able to deal with it early in your life.

I'd go to these meetings and these old people would be like, I drank for 50 years and you're so lucky.

And I'd be like, you're so lucky, you got to drink for 50 years, I have to stop when I'm

So you graduate and you move to Washington, D.C.

And I guess you work in management consulting for a few years, and then you head to business school, right, to Harvard Business School?

And your previous experience in a college environment was like super partier and Drinker and imagine that that's also kind of that drinking helped you meet people Right a little bit because it's totally right and and now you're in this new environment where you're I'm assuming no longer drinking what was that like?

There was just a lot of partying and it's how people connect and how people bond, especially in the early days.

And I just felt like a fish out of water.

I just felt so, I just couldn't be around that and so I kinda just stayed away and socially it was very hard for me to be there, really hard.

And 1 of the advantages of going to business school is it creates a network.

And a lot of people go to business school with that intention in mind, finding their future co-founder like Andy Dunn of Bonobos did when he went to Stanford or Jen Hyman of Rent the Runway found her co-founder at Harvard Business School.

Was that your intention to find your co-founder and start a business when you got there?

No, because startups wasn't really a thing.

I did have a sense that I wanted to be an entrepreneur.

My dad ran his own business when I was growing up.

So he was his own boss, and he lived this kind of leisurely existence where he really felt in charge of his own destiny and he really instilled into me like you should go work for yourself.

How did you start to think about while you were at business school something connected to relationships or dating?

I had no idea what I wanted to do and interviews were starting.

You have like, most people have jobs by Thanksgiving and the consulting firms are interviewing and I applied to all the consulting firms.

I got rejected from all of them except McKinsey.

So I took the job and signed with McKinsey.

And so it's around Thanksgiving and I've gotten John McKinsey and I'm actually dating this girl from HPS.

And I just couldn't get Kate out of my head.

I mean, everyone that I tried to date ever since I'd lost Kate, it was like 4 years ago at this point, I would just compare to her.

I knew that she had graduated and met someone and moved to London with him.

But this is now 4 years after you split up and she's still on your mind.

It was just such a magical relationship and I think every relationship I had I would compare and just no 1 felt like home to me in a way that she did.

And I'm at business school, and I can't get Kate out of my head, and I'm finally like, okay, Justin, it's been 4 years.

You've gotten into Harvard Business School.

Do we think that we can reach back out to Kate?

I said, it was kind of like an amends letter.

It was kind of like a, you know, I know that I did not act with a lot of kindness or integrity during our relationship.

And I don't know how I could ever make it up to you, but I would love to try, basically.

And we actually agreed to meet back in New York that Christmas.

And then she called back the next day and she said, I'm sorry, Justin, I just can't.

Like, if I see you, I don't know what's gonna happen.

And I've just moved in with this guy We have a flat together in London and I just can't see you and I was totally heartbroken In the back of my mind again I have these like these feelings but I had this feeling like Kate and I were meant to be together and we were going to be together.

And when that happened, I was like, Oh my God, it's over.

And I felt like I had torn the fabric of the universe or something.

I mean, I know that sounds grandiose, but I just felt like this is not the way that it's supposed to be.

And I like went into this total depression, like for I think more than a week, I just cried.

And then I emerged from that and Harvard Business School is throwing this Valentine's day party in February.

And I, back to try to rebound, I was like this socially awkward person who didn't like to go to parties, but there was this 1 girl in this 1 class that I sort of thought maybe there was a thing.

And so I was like really excited to list her as like a, it was like a crush party where you'd like list people that you had a crush on.

It was kind of like a last chance dance dynamic.

And then 1 day I'm walking to class in early February with the class president, Brett, and we're chatting.

I was like, oh yeah, and this dance is coming up, the last chance dance.

We decided that was just too complicated.

It's like thousand people listing people and all that stuff.

So I, I took it upon myself to build this and computers is something I really threw myself into as a kid.

I love to code so I decided to build an application that would allow people in the class to list their friends on Facebook and if 2 people matched it would alert them So I was gonna build that and release it at business school.

Wait, it was a Facebook, like a web app, right?

Because this is pretty, this is really cool.

But it was like, you could build an application within the Facebook frame.

And the idea was that you would just, people would sign up for this and then it would match them with other people in the app that they knew?

You'd log in, you'd have a list of your friends.

I mean, this was the Wild West early days before there were a lot of privacy regulations and all that.

So, you'd log in, you'd download all their friend lists from the API, you would display them, their friend list, you'd select the people you have a crush on, you'd go through and select them.

And then if they selected you, then it would let you know that it was a mutual match.

Was the fact that the dance was canceled, did that have anything to do with you launching it or was that just kind of coincidental?

I don't think I would have, that initial spark would have happened had the dance not been canceled and I hadn't been walking with Brett that Wednesday afternoon The class Wow

So this was basically this idea kind of replaced the dance because the dance was designed to kind of do the same thing.

The original name of this, by the way, was called Secret Agent Cupid, and it was this whole thing of like you're undercover listing your crushes.

But it was this, it was the beginning of this whole dynamic of this, what's called like the double opt-in of you list someone and they don't find out unless they list you too, or they like you too.

But how was this idea connected to anything in your personal life?

I mean, I know you were heartbroken because Kate didn't wanna meet you and you kind of didn't have a whole lot of success dating, but how was, was this in a sense a way to kind of solve your own problem or was just an idea that kind of came about and seemed fun?

No, it was totally to solve my own problem.

It was very Like, there's a girl in this class that I have a crush on that I wanted to find a girlfriend.

I mean, I always wanted to find, I don't know why, but I've always just been this romantic who just really wanted to find my person and had this belief that when I found my person, like, everything would just be amazing forever.

All right, so you put this up there and you're at Harvard Business School, so presumably it wasn't that hard to get people to notice it because you just told people, hey, check this out, right?

Yeah, it's a small class and a bunch of people hopped on and did it and it led to a few matches.

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Hinge: Justin McLeod (2021)