See all All There Is with Anderson Cooper transcripts on Applepodcasts

Hey, it's Anderson Cooper. I want to take a few minutes to introduce you to a new podcast from my friend and colleague, Audie Cornish. It's called The Assignment. And Audie's with me now to talk about the program and also talk with me about my experiences making All There Is, because before I started even making all there is, Audie was the first person I talked to about, and really the only person I talked to about podcasting. So I'm, it's such a pleasure to be able to talk to her about her new podcast and stick around after the conversation to hear the first episode.

How's it going?

Hey, how are you?

I'm good. I'm good.

I love talking to you now at the end of your process. Yes. Because I caught you originally maybe the middle to end.

I started making recordings in my mom's place, but I hadn't actually like taken a step into forming it into a podcast, I don't think.

So you've already done it in kind of memoir form. You've already talked about it in your medium of choice which we'll talk about. What was it that you thought this could do for it? Like taking it on an audio? Was it just having the tapes?

It was more, I mean, honestly, I didn't really think about, I mean, when I started, I didn't plan on making a podcast. I was just sad in my mom's apartment going through her things, and I'd been reading Viktor Frankl's Men's Search for Meaning, and he had talked about narrating himself through situations, and not to compare my situation all to his obviously, but it's something I've done in my head a lot, like distance myself from something to narrate, to get through things and narrate myself through them, sort of observe myself as a human being doing something. And so that's how I started making recordings and then decided that it's ridiculous that I don't know anybody else who's talked about going through their parents stuff and I don't know who to even call to talk about going through my mom's stuff. And so I thought I should just start doing that. And I'm too shy to actually like call up people and just ask them for advice on, like I would never call up Stephen Colbert and say, hey, can we talk about, you know, this thing I'm going through in my life?

But to be able to say what to somebody, you know, I'd like to interview you about this. It was, for you, what is the assignment, first of all?

Well, I mean, 1 of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you is because the assignment does something similar to what you did, which is you talk to people about their personal experience. And I think in the news business, we're really used to kind of bringing someone on as an anecdote, and then we're like, okay, go back to your life while we get back to the rest of the news, sentence caps. And I really felt like, you know, some of the best conversations I've had while reporting were with those people in that experience and how can I expand that and is this the right medium to expand that and to like let that breathe a little bit?

I listened to the Only Fans episode.

Yeah, this is 1 coming up folks.

And what I loved about it was...

And just to give people the background, we're going to be speaking with what I call the original gig workers, but some people in the OnlyFans economy, people have sort of migrated into the business of, I guess, what you would call sex work online.

Yeah, yeah. I actually, I know a couple of OnlyFans, people who have like been very successful in OnlyFans. I don't know them well, but I know them.

That's what everyone says. No, sure.

No, my, my, well, anyway, it's a long story. But immediately you can tell the approaches like from the inside out. It's, as you said, it's not sort of just having some voices in to illustrate a point and then moving on. Sort of it's all crafted around these voices. It's like you've taken the innards and you've pulled them outside and it's very compelling in that way.

It gets at something that I liked about your show, which is the intimacy of it, which in your case I think comes from the subject matter. It's incredibly hard to talk to people about the things you spoke to them about. But this leads me to my question, which is about intimacy in our discussion about which is the more intimate.

Audie and I had a dinner. Let's just say what happened. I didn't really know. I didn't, I mean, I knew Audie's work, but I didn't know her personally. We ended up having a dinner together that was a very, ended up being a very long dinner after show 1 night.

And because I asked a lot of questions. But it was great. And it was just a very, it was a really great dinner. And I really liked her.

But it came out of me being like, I don't know how to do TV. I don't know what I'm doing. Tell me what you do to make this feel less crazy. Because to me in a studio, a TV studio, it's lights, giant monitors with your own image being broadcast back at you, people speaking in your ear, this camera guy, that camera guy, a desk,

and then the anchor, so

to speak. I think I really fully understood the concept of the anchor in all of that.

The anchor,

it's such a silly term.

The anchor

of it.

Whereas at, you know, public media, we're like, we're hosts. It's like this intimate little party. And so I was saying it's not intimate at all. It's driving me crazy.

Right. I view television differently. I do think television can be extraordinarily intimate. I think there's, you know, it's, I think you get, I think people get, get stuck looking into the camera, looking at the camera lens and that piece of glass and they get stuck in the front of the camera. Someone once said to me, a producer, David Borman was talking to me a long time ago about, you're not looking at the front of the camera, you're looking into the back of the camera.

You're looking through the back of the camera.

Which now I'm always trying to do. You should see me with my little eyes searching around.

No, you don't want to

be searching. You just want to be reaching through.

So how was it different? You're sitting down with people and having, you know, you have to be vulnerable in the conversation you were having as well. I'm finding that as I'm doing the assignment, I have to share more than I have in the past, where I've been a more distanced observer in a way. Because you know what it's like when you're reporting and you're trying to get people to talk, you have to give of yourself. So did you find this space any, how did you find this space different?

You know, I don't know. I thought the intimacy of being in the room with somebody was really interesting and different than a television interview. I mean, in television, there are more things going on in one's mind, or at least in my mind during an interview. I mean, there's questions about light, you know, there's questions about lighting, there's questions about sound. If I'm shooting a story in a place where something, you know, I've been in situations of in a children's hospital in Maradi Niger in a malnutrition crisis with dying children, and there is the horror of what you are seeing and the sadness of it, and at the same time, part of your mind is also thinking of, is the sound person recording the sound properly and getting the sound of the fluid dripping, the IV, or this person's breath coming in, and raspy breath coming in and coming out, all these things which are horrible to think about in that moment and yet they're also part of television production.

In recording for the podcast, I don't think there is that same level of, it's just you and the microphone, so there's not a lot of moving parts

to it. Though I'll tell you my

dirty secret, which is sometimes I am editing people in my head because I'm so used to conversations having to be edited down. And, you know, people are discursive and they go off. And this has been really exciting because it's forced me to come out of my own head the way you're talking about. Like stop trying to edit and manage this conversation that you're in and just be in it.

Yeah, I mean, is there something of the conversations you've had, is there something, a moment that stands out to you?

For me, like in our opening episode about these activist parents who have run for election and now on school boards, for me it's the moment where they themselves have to pause and think. And you hear a little bit, like you hear that silence, which is very powerful, while they say, well, is that what I mean? You know, and it's very rare that we let people have the grace or space to think, right? It's like, don't do that, because if you falter, you know what I mean, like you could go viral. And there was a moment where I'm kind of pressing them about whether or not they kind of want to roll back school policies.

And it's interesting, we end up going back and forth over just the phrase rolling back. And to me that is so revealing. That is so revealing. The perception is that people in your position are trying to roll back

certain policies, whether that is discussions around social issues,

et cetera. Do you see yourself as rolling back excess?

No, I don't. I think, unless you're talking about just maybe over the last 5 or 6 years.

That's what I'm referring to.

But, I mean, I'm talking about the activism in the classroom where the teacher is bringing their own political.

So the answer sounds like is yes. Yeah. Anticipate rollbacks of.

I mean, I thought you meant like roll it back to, I don't know.

So let me re-ask, at this point, would you like to see a rolling back of classroom discussions based on the current events of the last 5 years? So LGBT issues for 1, certainly how race and history are discussed in the classroom is certainly another?

I think what we would hope to be done is just to adhere to the standards of providing each side without bias. So if you want to...

But do you

see why I'm asking? Like if if you feel like something has gone to excess,

it

sounds to me like the remedy is to pull back.

Or you could say that they haven't been following what, let's say, you got people going on the extremes, you know?

And you wanna roll those people back.

Yeah, I don't know if rolling back is the right term. I have to agree with Amy. It's about getting back to basics and teaching the standards.

What's so interesting to me about that is that we are in this age where people are talking at each other and in bumper sticker slogans, and people have the slogans down, but when you actually just sort of try to lower the temperature and actually listen to what somebody's saying and respond to them as a human being and sort of start to just explore what they're saying, it's disarming to people, and sometimes they don't know how to put away the bumper sticker slogan and actually express what they actually think or even explore what they actually think.

Yeah, and their people are on guard a little bit, you know, and rightly so. Their words can be weaponized against them, et cetera. And the goal of the conversation, at least my opinion, is not to change minds. You know, I don't have that kind of sense of just like the power of conversation. It's more like what would this conversation be like if we actually listened a little bit.

You might come away with different understanding. You might come away with a better understanding of how

to talk to people you disagree with, which battles to fight over the course of a conversation, and how to open some doors instead of close them. And I'm hoping to make the strange familiar, right? Like that there will be a lot of communities that people hear from that they'll go, I did not think I had anything in common with a sex worker, you know, or like I did not, I didn't know what was going on for gender affirming care doctors. Like I've only seen it in the headlines. I think we've got a lot of interesting shows coming out.

You can check out The Assignment wherever you get your podcasts and follow so you won't miss any episodes.

Thanks, Anderson. This week on The Assignment, with me, Audie Cornish. We're going to share today's assignment with Larry Wilmore. We'll talk about his prolific career in television, mentoring younger writers, dapping up President Obama, and what he's working on next.

I do have some fans out there who kind of know that I've been a producer for all these years. They go, oh,

yeah,

I just

love the

real TV.

Yeah, exactly. And in the last few years, I've got many podcast fans.

Listen to the assignment with me, Audie Cornish on Spotify. OK, before we start a little bit of personal history. My mother was an elected school board member. And in my small hometown outside of Boston, this was back in the mid-'90s, That meant she spent long nights at meetings in salary fights with teachers unions or with parents angry over a lot of things Fast forward to today and I have a kindergartner and I can't get these images out of my head of parents raging at school board members last year. This wave of parent activists were upset about how schools handled the pandemic, handled teaching gender identity, handled issues of race.

Diversity is a code word for anti-white.

Since when did the public school system take it upon itself to become the moral authority from which our children learn their values? Yeah!

Yeah! After so much deception, radical politics, and eruptions of violence, We are pulling our son today from this school district. Who will be taking responsibility?

-♪

But the thing is, it wasn't some pandemic-induced moment. It's the latest chapter in a long-running movement. And the Historians who study this stuff say school battles are really just proxy fights for what it means to be American. So I wanted to know more about these activist parents. What drove them to activism?

And now that they have power, What do they plan to do with it?

We need more critical thinking. We need to be teaching our kids to think for themselves and to have their own opinions and we need to be supportive of that.

Unless a parent thinks it's inappropriate. Then they can make a phone call to a tip line, right? And say, I didn't like the way that went down.

Well, and that's a discussion to be had between the school board and the parent. And it's uncomfortable, but we need to be having discussions.

I'm Adi Cornish. This is The Assignment. I'm not going to pretend that the parents' rights movement is new. I grew up outside of Boston in the decade after the school busing crisis, when parents angry over mandatory integration fueled riots in the late 70s. And I was part of a voluntary busing program.

So I get it. Covering education over the years, I found that most of these stories were really about power.

The analogy that works for me is the family dinner.

Adam Latz is a historian of education at Binghamton University, and he studies the power struggle over what belongs in the classroom.

We think about public schools as America's dinner table where everyone comes and has to sit down and has to get along for a certain amount of time. It makes sense that this is where all the underlying tensions, all the long-festering angers get expressed from time to time.

And without going too far down the historian rabbit hole, 1 of the most interesting of those times he told us about wasn't Boston in

1974,

but Kanawha County in 1974. That's in West Virginia. And that's where a school board fight about so-called multicultural textbooks spiraled into a boycott and bombings.

Shattered windows, chairs scattered about.

What was left of Mrs. Catherine Albright's

first grade room at Midway Elementary School at Campbell's Creek, West Virginia. All

right, but let me back up because like I said, It all started with textbooks.

325

of them.

By the way, I feel it's a God-given responsibility for me to educate my children.

Now that's from a school board meeting. It was on June

27, 1974,

in Kanawha County.

We feel that in no way can this type of literature benefit and further our children's education.

We do not want any teacher to assign any of this material at any time for any of our children to read.

West Virginia had recently tried to modernize its curriculum. And remember, this was a tumultuous time in the U.S. With civil rights and women's rights and the Vietnam War all in the mix. And around the country, there was a progressive push not only to integrate classrooms, but also to integrate reading lists.

The word they use at the time, a more multicultural set of authors for literature. So, for example, they intentionally included more black authors, but They also included authors that wrote non-traditional poetry, so like E.E. Cummings.

The school board had been prepared to approve these new books, suggested by the state. But there was 1 member who objected, and her name was Alice Moore.

We've got to let them know that the parents want to voice and what their children are studying in schools.

Sweet Alice, as she came to be known in the controversy, she was an experienced conservative activist and she ran for school board because she wanted to make schools more traditional, more conservative, in her words, more American and patriotic.

After Alice Moore objected to the new curriculum, rumors spread through the county, and there was no Facebook at the time, but there were paper flyers passed around by parent groups, and these flyers claimed the new books promoted reverse racism and criminality. Let's call it Fake News

1974.

So in June, the school board meeting was packed. It was in a gymnasium, and the windows of the gymnasium were packed. People were sticking their heads in to try to hear and see.

There were more than a thousand people. Parents, teachers, pastors, representatives from groups like the West Virginia Civil Liberties Union. And then here comes the part that's going to sound familiar.

We absolutely refuse to have the liberal point of view pushed upon our children.

We the parents are the taxpayers. We pay your salary.

We elected you to office.

The undersigned citizens and taxpayers of Kanawha County hereby petition the Board of Education to deny the use of certain textbooks in the schools of this county.

I have seen 2 basic English tests.

If you listen close, you

can hear the boos on the tape there.

The audience cuts in so often that the chairman keeps threatening to clear the room. After 3 hours of back and forth, they decide to buy most of the textbooks. And the vote is 3-2. There was no way that fight was going to end just like that. Not with the history of this county.

It has a real strong, powerful tradition of labor activism. So when school politics got heated, the people in Kanawha County, you know, as labor activists, but also as minors, they had not only traditions of boycotts and picket lines, but they had also things like dynamite and they used it.

Things more or less moved in that chronological order. You had nearly 10, 000 people stay home during the boycotts. Kids, bus drivers, truckers, yes coal miners, and then someone graffitied Nazi symbols onto school buildings. Then some people took shots at school buses on their way to pick up the students who were still going to school. And then the bombs, planted at 3 elementary schools and dynamite thrown into a school board building.

In Kanawha County, West Virginia, there was violence today in the continuing demonstrations against the use of controversial textbooks in the schools. The Charleston Gazette said in an editorial today, the county is near anarchy.

Okay, so we aren't at this point yet. But the argument about parents' rights, it's back. And the argument about political indoctrination in the classroom is back. And as more progressive ideas about race and gender take hold in the mainstream, some conservatives have felt their grasp on the definition of what it means to be an American slip. And in the past few years, we've seen an increasing number of parents elected to school boards who want to focus on their right to determine how we should teach our nation's history and how and if schools should talk about race and gender.

So next we're gonna hear from 2 people at the center of it.

It makes it sound like we're gonna go back to Jim Crow laws or something like that. It just sounds like this negative connotation when actually all we want to do is have school be a place where you're focused on reading, writing, arithmetic.

More in a minute.

I think I speak for most parents right now that have decided to stand up and speak out at school board meetings being called domestic terrorists. You know, I'm a mom. I'm a small business owner. I just want to be able to advocate for my children.

That is April Carney. She's about to be sworn onto her local school board in Duval County, Florida. She and a bunch of other people earned the endorsement of Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who is, like, not subtle about where he stands on culture war issues in the classroom.

Florida is the state where woke goes to die.

Amy Covey was also recently elected to her local school board. This was in Lansing, Kansas, and she's gotten criticism for some of the stances she's taken as well.

Immediately, since I had questioned critical race theory and I had spoke at the school board, I was immediately being called a racist and messaged things that I was a racist and it got pretty nasty, but I just tried to stay strong. I worried about my daughter. I worried that they would maybe call her a racist at the high school because of that.

Amy Covey has been on the board since January. Her governor, who is a Democrat, actually vetoed a parents' rights bill there, and then her district passed their own version anyway. So this year, both April in Florida and Amy in Kansas, well, they started the school year in, let's say, changed environments.

I actually think we had 1 of our best starts to the school year yet, so I'm very happy with that.

And April, what about you?

I'd have to agree. I think that we are off to a great start. I think there's a very comfortable, transparent feeling going on at the beginning of the school year this year.

I feel like you guys are both on the edge of smiling. Are you feeling good?

Yes. Yes.

Vaguely victorious. Neither of

these 2 women had run for office before they ran for school board. But then 2020 hit and school closures gave them a new perspective.

This is April. I have to say, you know, we were we were only closed for a short period of time here in Florida from March till the end of that school year. And I have to say that was just enough for me to get a tidbit of how hard it is to be an educator. It was a struggle. It was frustrating.

I had said to my husband, I said, you know, I really hope we go back to school next year because I don't want to ruin my relationship with my 2 girls. You know, I'm not an educator. That's not what I do for a living. And so I think it put parents in a pickle.

Amy, I hear you nodding. I don't know if you have a question for April or a story to share with your 16 year old.

For her, it was the social isolation from not being in school, and then the depression that sunk in. It really affected the mental health, I think, of the kids.

But then, all of a sudden, you're home, you're feeling a little bit helpless. What makes you decide, you know what, I need to, like, do something about what I'm seeing. I see problems and I want to do something about it.

This is April. For me, It was actually when we opened back up the following year. We went through a whole process, our district went through a whole process of online board meetings with the superintendent. I didn't feel like I was being listened to when I would stand up at school board meetings and speak for my 3 minutes. So, you know, if you have a school board meeting where 65 parents stand up and say, we no longer want our child to be forced to wear a mask, and then they vote against you, that's how you feel like you're not being listened to.

I also spoke at our school board meeting too before I was elected, and they sent out the survey to the parents to ask if they wanted their children to go back to in-school learning. And over 80% responded, saying that they did want their kids to go back and then they weren't going to vote for them to go back 5 days a week. They just disregarded that.

Amy also spoke up at another school board meeting about critical race theory. The school district was arguing that they were not using the legal theory taught at the college level, but that they wanted to take a comprehensive look at slavery in the U.S. Amy worried that would include materials from the New York Times' 1619 Project. And then there was this 1 book in particular that really bothered her. It was being used at the school-approved Social Justice Club.

It was, this book is anti-racist, and it had clear CRT, you know, ideals in that book.

Yeah, I think this is a book by Tiffany Jewel. This book is anti-racist and the full title is 20 Lessons on How to Wake Up, Take Action and Do the Work.

Yeah, it's very much an activist book on how to teach your child, you know, to do that in different ways.

And which part of it to you is the most objectionable?

Well, it was a partisan book that the country is inherently racist and formed on racist ideals and that if you're not anti-racist that you're racist. I mean it was a very strong book that I think what I want is to keep that out of the classroom, focus on the core curriculum.

There are so many things now that fall under that category.

Like 1

of the criticisms about some of the bills about what to teach in classrooms is that they're so wide open to interpretation. Like what is the circumstance where someone can talk about race or racism in the classroom and who decides that?

1 part with ours is that our parents, if they can object to a learning material in our Parents' Bill of Rights, if they feel that that harms their beliefs, values, or principles. So in some instances, it may be that the lesson is still taught, but their child does a different lesson. And part of our Parents' Bill of Rights also does say that we expect the teacher and educator of each child that they will endeavor to present the facts without distortion, bias, or personal prejudice.

And who decides that? So if there's a history of slavery in the country, is that a fact?

I mean, you should be teaching about slavery, of course, but you could, you know, you wouldn't, I guess when you would throw in your own personal bias or prejudice is when you would say that, for instance, like how the 1619 project did.

Yeah, April, I don't know if you want to help here. Obviously in Florida this has been talked about a lot. What's your sense of what's the dividing line?

I think that in the classroom when you're opening for discussion, you're presenting the facts I think that you have to be able as an educator to Talk about both sides of the topic, right? I mean, I think that you need to Be able to sit there and moderate your students and open them up to critical thinking. What do you feel about this? What do you think was wrong that happened, you know, during slavery in our country? Do you feel that we are growing from that experience?

Do you feel the opposite? I think that that's the issue.

But under these parent bills of right, like, can they do that? Or have you created a scenario where raising those kinds of questions is subject to challenge by a parent who feels they're inappropriate to ask?

I don't feel that that's the case. I think that the issue at hand is that there's only 1 side that's being spoken about. It's not being presented in a well-rounded manner.

Right. You've got to teach the history without teaching any of that other kind of context? Or how do you think about it?

Well, it just that falls into how it is being taught, whether it's being taught with bias. Are you teaching American history with the overarching theme that this is a racist country, it's still a racist country, or are you teaching just what has happened and let the child form their own ideas on what has happened throughout history and the changes that have been made and that have occurred good or bad since then and let them form their own opinions through critical thinking.

The perception is that people in your position are trying to roll back

certain policies, whether that is discussions around social issues, etc.

Do you see yourself as rolling back excess?

No, I don't. I think, unless if you're talking about just maybe over the last 5 or 6 years.

That's what I'm referring to.

But I mean, I'm talking about the activism in the classroom where the teacher is bringing their own political.

So the answer sounds like is yes. Yeah. Anticipate rollbacks. I thought

you meant like roll it back to, I don't know.

So let me re-ask, at this point, would you like to see a rolling back of classroom discussions based on the current events of the last 5 years? So LGBT issues for 1, certainly how race and history are discussed in the classroom is certainly another.

I think what we would hope to be done is just to adhere to the standards of providing each side without bias. So if you want to...

But do you see why I'm asking? Like if if you feel like something has gone to excess, it sounds to me like the remedy is to pull back.

Or you could say that they haven't been following what... Let's see, you got people going on the extremes, you know?

And you want to roll those people back.

Yeah, I don't know if rolling back is the right term. I have to agree with Amy. It's about getting back to basics and teaching the standards.

So getting back is the term you'd prefer to use.

Yeah, I think it's back to basics. We need like I said, we have so much learning loss that's happened because of the pandemic.

Right. But either way, it's a It's a

going back of something. You want to draw back on what's happened.

Yeah, I think we need to focus on what's important, and that's educating our children to be able to graduate from high school.

Why are you guys scared to say this? And I'm not picking on you. I'm genuinely confused. If you've both seen an excess, you've seen something go too far, why the fear around saying let's pull back from a thing that's gone too far?

Well, it makes it sound like you want to roll back to the times when you know like we're gonna go back to Jim Crow laws or something like that it just sounds like this negative connotation when actually all we want to do is have school be a place where you're focused on reading, writing, arithmetic. We're focusing on all of these other issues that could be addressed at home with the parents.

Well thank you for letting me dig into that. I always want to make sure that I'm totally clear on what's being said to me so I'm not misconstruing things. I don't want to lose sight of kids in this. I ask students what they thought of political battles finding their way into the classroom. I gave them no direction on what political battle that might be.

And here is 1 of them.

How is it that my existence is a threat to other people? Because my existence, my identity, my sexuality, my gender, that's me. And the same goes for everybody else in this world. And no 1 else should have the right to try to silence me or silence anyone else, no matter how young, how old. It's such an important part of myself and I know that for other trans kids it is an important thing for them too and I think the fact that we can't even express that in schools or we're supposed to be safe where we are encouraged to grow and be ourselves I just think that that is completely unacceptable.

What do you hear in the voice of a student like that?

I think that we're putting these kids under a microscope. And I actually think that by drawing more attention to the struggles they're going through, it's actually putting more pressure on them. I have a friend of mine whose son is gay and has come home and said, mom, it's all day, every day, it's nonstop. I feel like I'm being singled out and I really just want to be with my peers and go about my school day. And so I think there's a way to be inclusive without making it a spectacle.

And I think that's what it's become. And in turn, it's actually having a negative effect on these kids that are struggling with their gender identity. And I think if there was less focus on it during the school day and more focus on academics and just being a kid, I think it might lessen the pressure for her. I feel for her. I do empathize with her.

Here's what else students are hearing. For instance, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, right? He was speaking before the Moms for Liberty Summit over the summer in July. And here's a sample of that speech.

We also drew a line in the sand and said, you know, in the state of Florida, a parent should be able to send their kid to kindergarten without having woke gender ideology shoved down their throat. We're not gonna have some first grader be told that, you know, yeah, your parents named you Johnny. You were born a boy, but maybe you're really a girl.

What's your response to that? And I'll start with you, April, because you were among the candidates that he supported.

I think that a 5 year old who still believes in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny doesn't need to be taught about gender ideology. I think once you go through puberty and you start to figure out who you are and your hormones start to even out, then yes, if that's how you're feeling, and if it was my child, I'd be completely accepting of that child. But I think at that age, it's not necessary in the classroom. House Bill 1557 is about age-appropriate curriculum. Not 1 place in that bill does it mention anything about singling out children for their, you know, persuasion.

Right, I

mean it doesn't help if the governor goes out and is like, we're gonna stop this ideology from being shoved down your throats it's just being woke like that language is not I mean correct me if I'm wrong does that language feel as careful as you guys are being

you know I think I think he's speaking for a lot of parents that are tired

yeah

I just think that I think that he's you know he's a dad too he's got 3 young children and there's a there's a lot of folks out there that just do not agree with what's going on. And we can be accepting and inclusive of everyone without putting such a microscope over it. And that's what's happened. And it's being picked up by the media and it's being picked up on social media and it's being portrayed and pushed and pushed and pushed. And it's all you see.

And what

is I just want to make sure I'm following.

That lifestyle, the lifestyle of the LGBTQ community. It's... If that's what you choose to do, and that's how you feel in your heart, and that's who you are, that's completely acceptable. But it doesn't mean that the rest of the world has to be just like you.

Can I stop

you for a second? I want to ask you in particular because you're in Florida, What people are seeing is a governor backing some 2 dozen candidates. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. You actually had to say that you sort of agree with his agenda. This is something he's speaking about nationally.

It does not seem like it's just about helping out parents. He's backing candidates. It seems very political.

Well, I think that, you know, the reason why he and the first lady decided to do this is because people just simply weren't paying attention to down-ballot races.

But it's not that it's apolitical. Like, we are looking at a political movement.

Yeah, I mean, well, I think it's a parent movement, is what it is.

Amy, can I ask you about this as well? You ran explicitly as a conservative.

Yes. The idea that politics were not already in that and that it's bringing it in, I would disagree with because it has already been in there. The NEA, the teachers unions across the country are highly political.

Right, this is the National Education Association. So to you, it is about bringing,

I mean, you have an ideology as well. You're saying that you're not pretending you don't.

No, I'm not. I'm not pretending I don't, but what I would like in that ideology as a conservative viewpoint of that is to keep the politics out of schools. And I know that I run as a conservative, but that's 1 of the conservative views is that we...

So you can see how that's

hard to square, right? Like just as an average voter.

Well...

You have lots of political people saying they're being apolitical and they all want control of your students and syllabus, right? Like it seems all political.

I can see how you might feel that way on the other side, but I feel...

Not other side, but like objectively, right? Like if someone says, I am a conservative, I want to run for this position that's usually considered nonpartisan because I believe that my ideology brings something to this. It is explicitly political.

Well, the reason why I would say that I was a conservative is because that way it shows, you know, your values and your views on points. So those conservatives would have a voice. But as a part of a school board, I need to listen to all sides. And that can come back on on us, too. Like you have to watch for both sides being brought, you know, into the classroom.

I don't want the Republican side, if you want to call it that, or the Democrat side brought in. I want just the facts.

My mom ran for a school committee. This was a huge part of my growing up. So I'm sort of intimately aware of

how these battles can play out, right?

And I had school friends whose parents were teachers and they were in the union and it was a whole thing. What I learned from that time, though, is so much of this is about control. Who is in control? Who gets to draw the lines? Who gets to say what is appropriate or not appropriate?

Do you feel like, and especially after we started this conversation where you said in some ways you felt helpless, do you feel like you have more control now?

This is Amy. As far as myself, I'm still only 1 vote out of 7, but I do feel like at least I can assure that parents have a voice and when they bring those concerns to me, I do have that control where I can make that known to the board and-

And specifically conservative parents, right? I mean, that was part of your campaign to say I can be a voice for you.

It is conservative, but I've also had 2 or 3 recent issues that came up. These people, they were not for what I ran for, but they had some other issues that needed to be addressed. And I went to bat for them. I knew they didn't vote for me. I knew they didn't agree with me on a lot of these issues.

In fact, 1 had spoke out on that, but I'm happy to say I can set that aside because I have a job to do, you know, as a board member and it's about the kids and I did that.

I mean, honestly, I think that When you decide to run for public office, like I did, do I have my own personal values? Absolutely. Does that mean that I'm going to be biased when it comes to the overall district and what's best for our teachers and students? Absolutely not. And I am so glad that I'm going to get the opportunity to serve our community and that we're going to be able to have more robust conversations as a school board because now we're going to have more diversity of thought.

And I truly believe that when you have a more balanced school board, that those conversations will be more productive.

Going forward, what do you feel about school board races, which in the past were at least perceived as being kind of uneventful and maybe apolitical. How do you feel about the fact that they will become more explicitly partisan?

I would be fine with it being either way. And let's face it, the country is divided. I mean, our presidential elections were very divided. Our Senate is, you know, almost evenly divided, right? There's division all over the country.

And I don't think it's any shock that there's some in the school boards too now.

April, do you feel similarly? Is it okay to have a more hyper-partisan environment

at the school level?

To some extent, yes, because I think, again, as I mentioned about people not paying attention to down-ballot races. We can't just focus on the presidential election anymore. What happens on the local level is what's most important and it affects the most important citizens of this country and that's our children. And so are there a lot of informed voters out there? Yes.

Are there a lot that are not? Absolutely. And so to some extent, to make it a more partisan race, it helps those that are low information voters make a decision based upon what they believe. And again, it also...

It's sort of depressing. Like as a parent, I've got... No, I mean, I've got kids under the age of 5. And I turn on the news and I look out in the world and I do see, like, conflicts and history and they need a bunch of critical thinking skills,

which

I very much hope to give them. But it sounds like you guys are saying like, don't do that in school.

Oh, no, I'm a huge...

And

that's kind of sending them out in the world being like, wait, Do we talk about LGBT issues? What do you think about racism? I ran off of

having more critical thinking in the classroom. I think that's what we're lacking. We need more critical thinking. We need to be teaching our kids to think for themselves and to have their own opinions, and we need to be supportive of that.

Unless a parent thinks it's inappropriate. Then they can make a phone call to a tip line, right, and say, I didn't like the way that went down.

Well, and that's a discussion to be had between the school board and the parent. But we need to be having these discussions and it's it needs to happen and it's uncomfortable. But we need to be having discussions. I welcome parents' commentary. We have to be able to listen to 1 another so that we can come together.

It's the only way it's ever going to happen.

That was April Carney of Duval County, Florida, and Amy Covey of Lansing, Kansas. The assignment is a production of CNN Audio. Our producers are Alex Stern, Madeline Thompson, Jennifer Lai, Isoke Samuel, and Allison Park. Our Senior Producer is Haley Thomas. Our Supervising Producer is Steve Flicktein.

Mixing and Sound Design by David Schulman. Artwork Designed by Nicole Peserew and Jameis Andres. And our technical director is Dan D'Zula. Support from Adam Levy, Osman Noor, Sonia Tun, Aaron Mathewson, Katie Hinman, Lindsey Abrams, Tamika Valens-Kalasny, Rafina Ahmad, and Lisa Namoro. Special thanks to Theo Balcom.

Abby Swanson is our executive producer. I'm Audie Cornish, thanks for listening.

♪♪

you