- The founder of Frax, Sam Kasmian, discusses Frax v3 and its changes over the past year or two.
- Frax v3 aims to be a fully collateralized stablecoin that can act like real US dollars in any market condition.
- The goal is to become safer as Frax grows in size and importance in the stablecoin market.
- Frax is transitioning to 100% collateralization with exogenous collateral, and the governance token does not count as collateral.
- Frax has a lot of locked liquidity, ensuring stability and preventing a bank run scenario.
- The protocol has been transparent with a live balance sheet and regular updates on collateral.

- The speaker believes that markets are efficient and that pushing out as much information as possible helps towards efficiency.
- The speaker discusses similarities between MakerDAO and the Frax protocol, including the use of surplus buffers and distributing excess profits to token holders.
- The Frax protocol is described as being vertically integrated with multiple sub-protocols, such as FraxSeth and FraxSwap.
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of stability in the Frax ecosystem and the decentralized nature of the system.
- Frax v3 introduces mechanisms such as staked Frax and FRAX bonds to ensure stability.
- The Frax protocol has a real-world asset strategy that aims to tap into the risk-free IORB rate.
- The goal is to eventually have a Fedmaster account at a US Federal Reserve bank to access the IORB rate.
- The real-world asset strategy is focused on the US dollar and aims to avoid default risk.

- The speaker discusses the importance of the interest rate in the real world economy and how it differs from the digital world of blockchains.
- They explain that when interest rates are low and there is a bull market, people are more interested in digital assets and protocols rather than real-world assets.
- The speaker mentions the FraxV3's real-world asset strategy, which is based on the Fed rate and the yield curve of dollars and treasuries on-chain.
- They highlight the benefits of having one entity, FinRez PBC, managing the reporting and execution of the strategy, as it simplifies the process compared to working with multiple partners.
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of transparent reporting and discusses how they aim to provide a real-time balance sheet of both on-chain and off-chain assets.
- They explain that the collateral backing of the FRAX stablecoin can shift between crypto assets and cash equivalents based on market demand and the interest rate.
- The speaker concludes by stating that Frax is a hybrid model of both crypto collateralization and fiat collateralization, depending on the real-world interest rate of the dollar.

- Frax is a hybrid stablecoin that combines crypto collateralization and fiat collateralization.
- The FraxGov module has been developed to allow on-chain governance and decision-making for Frax features and proposals.
- The module is being gradually implemented in various contracts, ensuring decentralized control and preventing unauthorized actions.
- The trade-off of on-chain governance is that emergency fixes may take longer to implement.
- The Frax team aims to fully decentralize all new features and contracts, eliminating the need for trust in signers or developers.
- The duration mismatch issue in S-Frax, a collateralized stablecoin, is addressed through the use of instantaneous payment settlement systems like FedNow and FRAX bonds with expiry dates.

- Frax is considering issuing short-dated FRAX bonds through governance to address the issue of time duration mismatch for redemption.
- These bonds would be sold at a slight discount and allow the protocol to raise on-chain funds (USDC liquidity) for immediate liquidity needs.
- FraxBonds (FXBs) are flexible and can be used in emergencies or for other purposes such as creating a yield curve on-chain.
- The FXBs are utility tokens with a timestamp that can be redeemed for FRAX stablecoins at the specified maturity date.
- The protocol fees for FXBs and S-FRAX (short-dated FRAX) can be set by governance based on the spread between the target yield and the actual real-world asset strategy.
- The S-FRAX vault currently has a take rate between 0.3% to 1% of the total value locked (TVL).
- Frax is open to protocol integrations and sees potential in partnering with platforms like FraxLend and Curve for DeFi use cases.
- The relationship between Frax and Paxos is not fully disclosed, but Paxos has been helpful and innovative in assisting Frax.

- The speaker discusses the partnership between Frax protocol and PayPal to issue PYUSD stablecoin.
- They believe that working together will provide on-chain liquidity and reliable protocol-owned liquidity.
- The integration between Frax and PYUSD will allow PayPal merchants to accept PYUSD, potentially increasing the number of merchants accepting crypto by 80x overnight.
- The speaker expresses confidence in the partnership, as opposed to other hyped announcements in the crypto industry.
- The speaker also discusses the success of the two-token model used by FraxEth, which has resulted in high yields and a strong peg.
- They explain that FraxEth functions as an ETH-backed stablecoin and offers staking opportunities.
- The speaker highlights the similarities between FraxEth and other successful stablecoins like DAI and SDAI.
- FraxEth v2 will allow anyone to run a validator with collateral, similar to Rocket Pool's model.

- FraxEth v2 is a lending market where users can mint FraxEth and borrow ETH to put into validators.
- Borrowers must provide additional ETH as collateral in case of slashing or incompetence.
- The interest rate in the lending market is determined by the amount of ETH lent and the interest validators pay.
- FraxEth v2 is similar to the concept of an LSD (lending staking derivative) proposed by the ETH Foundation.
- The ETH Foundation's proposal aligns with the design of FraxEth v2, and the code base could be shared.
- The conversation also touches on the quality of Frax validators and where to find more information about Frax.

- Frax v3 aims to be a fully collateralized stablecoin that acts like real US dollars in any market condition.
- Frax is transitioning to 100% collateralization with exogenous collateral and has locked liquidity to ensure stability.
- The protocol is transparent with a live balance sheet and regular updates on collateral.
- Frax has similarities to MakerDAO, including surplus buffers and distributing excess profits to token holders.
- Frax v3 introduces mechanisms like staked Frax and FRAX bonds for stability.
- The protocol has a real-world asset strategy focused on the US dollar to tap into the risk-free IORB rate.
- Frax is a hybrid stablecoin that combines crypto and fiat collateralization.
- The FraxGov module allows on-chain governance and decision-making.
- The duration mismatch issue in S-Frax is addressed through instantaneous payment settlement systems and FRAX bonds.
- Frax is open to protocol integrations and has a partnership with PayPal to issue PYUSD stablecoin.
- FraxEth v2 is a lending market where users can mint FraxEth and borrow ETH to put into validators.

In this week's interview Frax Finance Founder Sam Kazemian joins us to dissect Frax and how he sees Frax becoming the future of onchain money. They dive into the shift to being fully collateralized, Frax's singular real world asset strategy of accessing Fed rates, and new products like sFRAX yielding near the IORB and FXB for creating an on-chain yield curve. Sam explains the mechanics ensuring the peg in different markets, integrating with partners like Paxos, and FraxEth v2 transitioning to permissionless validation. He shares Frax's vision of becoming a compliant, safe, and systemically important stablecoin protocol across layers and blockchains.
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Timestamps
(0:00) Introduction
(1:12) Frax V3 Explained
(4:18) Marginally Collateralized Stablecoin Design
(10:40) Directing Profits to veFXS Holders
(22:22) Reporting Offchain Asset Info Onchain
(26:08) Backing a Stablecoin with RWAs
(30:27) Hexeans AD
(31:32) Frax Gov Module
(36:47) Managing Duration Mismatches
(44:38) Revenue on FXB and sFrax
(52:47) FraxEth Performance
(57:19) Frax Eth V2
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Resources
FraxV3 Overview
https://docs.frax.finance/frax-v3/overview 
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Disclaimer: Nothing said on 0xResearch is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Dan, Sam, and our guests may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed.

Once this rate is super low, once everyone is pricing in growth really highly, right, like once there's a bull market, rates are super low, they're near 0, everyone is like making money hand over fist, right, like you guys remember everything, you don't need motorcycle loans, you don't need, We're actually in the greatest technology sector in the world.

Welcome back to another episode of ZeroX Research.

Before we dive into today's episode with Sam Kasmian, the founder of Frax, or 1 of the core contributors to the protocol.

I want to give a quick shout out to our sponsor, Hexens, the most hardcore security team in Web3, pioneering in ZK and novel cryptography.

Hexens is trusted by tier 1 protocols like Polygon, including their work on their ZK-AVM, Mantle, RiskZero, Lido, 1inch, NewBank, and more.

You'll hear more about them a little bit later in the show, but today is October 13th, and we're very excited to have this conversation with Sam.

It's always a pleasure to be with you guys.

So Frax obviously is definitely taking kind of the more vertically integrated approach, which is super cool to see.

Not many protocols in the space are doing that.

So I wanted to get your take on Frax v3, some of the changes Frax has undergone over the past year or 2.

And yeah, if you could just set the stage there, we can dive a little bit deeper into the individual components.

We have a unique view on how we build stuff as stablecoins or as stablecoin stability mechanisms.

So that's why there's a few of this stuff like FraxLend and the Curve AMOs and stuff.

But just for like viewers listening, FraxV3 is the new version of the Frax dollar peg stablecoin.

We like to call it the final stablecoin design, so to speak, or other people have said it's like an all weather stablecoin in terms of we think this completes the dollar pegged stablecoin design.

And what I mean by that is, if you have a stablecoin issued, that's pegged to the US dollar, what you want to do is you want the stable coin to act like real US dollars in every kind of market condition, right?

When the issue of the US dollar itself, the US government, the Federal Reserve, actually pays high interest rates for people to hold it, as well as in low rates, which when they pay near 0 or 0 for people to actually use the dollars as a medium of exchange.

And what we decided to do is we wanted to have FRAX v3 basically able to work exactly as designed before with a few new unique innovations, but as well as bring on the dollar yield curve from the near yield curve, which is like short data treasuries or just the IORB rate, the interest on reserve balances for people that aren't into finance and stuff, which is a federal reserve rate, that number that Jerome Powell comes out, you know, every month and he says, the rate will like rise by 0.2 or 0.25 percent or whatever.

That's called the IORB rate, the interest on reserve balances.

We wanted to design a stable coin that brings all of those things on chain in as decentralized but proper manner as possible, as well as have all of the innovations that the FRAC stablecoin has had in v2, basically protocol and liquidity, able to manage on-chain liquidity, able to have over collateralized safe crypto loans, the thing that MakerDAO basically originated and its different kinds of flavors.

And So Fraxv3 kind of neatly places all of those in like an elegant way that we think no one's done before.

That really sets the stage for just the vision of why you're kind of moving to this Fraxv3 model.

And I love that you're referring to it as kind of the end state, because that's always been a question that I try to ask is, you know, what's the end state here?

So it's fun to actually like really dive into what that's going to be.

And so 1 of the core ideas here is moving to a fully collateralized stablecoin.

And that kind of differs from the under collateralized nature of the token in the past.

And so I kind of want to get your ideas around like what drove the change in approach here, since it's a bit of a change in tune.

And what are the tradeoffs in capital efficiency, which was like long touted as this really, really strong benefit of having this, you know, marginally under collateralized stablecoin?

So FRAX did extremely well during the previous bull market or the growth phase of crypto because of our capital efficient nature, as well as just having A lot of collateralization, but also able to be capital efficient, but not too crazy and weird like Terra and then the way that that all ended.

And as we grow bigger and we grow more important and then people use fracks and these kinds of things, I think our view, or at least my view, is that if you want to create a very, very large stablecoin, you know, we're really a long-term oriented team thinking in the next 3 to 5 to 10 years, right?

You want to basically become safer as you get bigger, not the other way around, right?

You don't want to become riskier as you get bigger because that's not a recipe for a good ending, right?

You can kind of do these kind of growth strategies or like try to take kind of market share.

Like when we launched Frax, right, everyone was like, why does Frax need to exist?

Why don't we use Dai or use USDC and these kinds of things?

And because of Frax's unique design, we're able to propel ourselves up there.

And now like Frax is, you know, top 5 stablecoin.

Because more capital efficient, it's better, you can yield far more than and it doesn't go to 0 like like Terra.

And so but now if we're going to go up to the billions and tens of billions and in the coming years, hopefully with stable coins going to hundreds of billions and we want to be up there, right?

And that's actually an interesting thing to think about because as people use money, you want it to be safer.

You want the money itself, the thing that people use as like a unit of account that has their debt denominated in it, that they save in.

You don't want that to possibly go poof overnight, right?

It's the same issue that people criticize traditional banking and right, like without FDIC bailouts or something like that.

If a bank is not fully backed by real dollars and really long dated loans or mark to market if they're insolvent, like we saw with Silicon Valley Bank and a bunch of other banks earlier in the year, that's a recipe for disaster.

So the bigger you get, you want to be safer.

And I love that you mentioned kind of that duration mismatch because that's something I definitely want to get into later in the episode.

But if we look at CR today or the collateralization ratio, it's around 92%.

So what's going to be the difference maker to fill that gap?

And do you have like an idea for how long that should take?

So for people that don't know, Frax is, like you said, fully transitioning to 100% CR of exogenous collateral, which means outside collateral, the actual governance token and stuff does not count as collateralization.

Mainly protocol revenue, it's not like there's just a bunch of governance tokens being sold or anything.

As you said, Frax is a bunch of different lines of sub protocols.

MakerDAO actually has a cool term, sub DAOs.

It turns out we're kind of both working on similar concept the whole time.

So we have an LSD, we like to call it an eth peg stable coin.

We have Frax chain coming at the end of the year.

And even just in these markets, Frax makes about between 30 to 40 million dollars of annual revenue counting everything the CRV from protocol and liquidity lending all this stuff.

Hopefully that'll be even higher with you know FraxChain L2 and these kind of things But I think that 1 thing that's important is FRAX has a lot of locked liquidity, which means our like gauge system, slightly different from Curve, allows people to lock liquidity between 1 to 3 years.

And so if you actually just go on chain and look at it like you don't have to trust me on this call or anything.

And you look at the locked liquidity like FRAX paired with DAI, with USDC, with all these other tokens.

There's actually years, 1 to 2 and a half years of locked liquidity.

That means that in balance sheet reporting, it's an asset because the side that is like DAI USDC, users can actually sell that's guaranteed liquidity.

It's almost like a redemption through a third mechanism, right?

And so for years from now, even though I don't expect it to take years, yes, Dan, how long it'll take, there is no mathematical possibility of like a bank run or anything like that, barring, you know, obviously like smart contract risk or something really unexpected happening.

So that's why FRAX has been super stable because we've been very, very transparent.

We have actually a live balance sheet of all the FRAX collateral that literally updates every block.

And so if there was some kind of hidden problem where if enough market actors right now, as we're saying this or something, were deemed fracks and it would all come crashing down or something, that would have happened months ago.

I'm of the belief that markets are efficient.

We actually try to help and tend towards efficiency by pushing out as much information as possible.

And because the information is good, things are good.

And so yeah, you mentioned MakerDAO and some of the similarities between your protocols.

And 1 thing they do is they have like the surplus buffer.

And right now they're returning some yield to their SDI token.

And when the surplus buffer rises over a certain amount, then actually some of that will be used to kind of be essentially distributed back to the MKR token through a special mechanism that they're using.

We obviously don't need to go into the details there.

But if we fast forward to the state for FRAX where the CR is 100, Will that kind of see a similar relationship where in some form or fashion, some of those excess profits will flow back to the VEFXS stakers?

In fact, not only that, but I think because like you said, Frax is very vertically integrated and internally with a lot of sub protocols.

Maker actually has 2 and there's 3 or 4 coming.

We have FraxSeth, FraxChain itself, FraxSwap and everything here.

And there's actually more stuff that, you know, like BAM and things like that, that could be separate discussions itself.

But VFXS is the staking system, as you guys know very well for FXS.

I think it was like second major token after VCRV to kind of use that system.

Everything that is excess profit, as you said, above the CR right now, most of the revenue goes to on the balance sheet to actually increase the CR.

However, there's a small amount, you know, 20 to $30,000 of revenue that's pushed out on VFX as it does not have like a 0 yield, but it could have much, much higher yield.

Think about staking a governance token that has like a specific type of roll up.

It has a lending market issues, 1 of the largest stable coins itself, and also 1 of the largest LSDs.

I think FraxETH is number 4 largest LSDs.

And 1 thing that I like to say about these kind of sub protocols and all of this ecosystem is that they're entirely, they excel in any kind of economic environment.

And so, for example, during high rates, what's been doing really well?

Because they have a dollar pegged stablecoin.

They're able to access that off-chain IORB, that FedRate, right?

And they're giving out a good amount of it through the DSR.

And Maker, the governance token, has gone on a massive run, right?

During high rates, this is the exact type of protocol or business, however you want to term it, type of thing that you actually want to be in, right?

And during low rates, you want to be in the high growth, innovative technology business, right?

Like LSDs, like roll ups, like blockchains.

Remember when ETH, it cost like $30 to transfer ERC20 token and the ETH protocol every day was burning like, what was it like, tens of 8 figures or something crazy of like ETH per day, right?

And you know, the annual projected revenue was in the billions of like for the ETH protocol itself, right?

Now, thankfully it's super cheap to send tokens and stuff, but that also means at high rates the blockchain business so to speak right like block space is much cheaper but if you have a dollar business so to speak a stablecoin protocol you excel right And so if you look at Frax's spectrum of assets, what VFXS holders basically control, govern and essentially have a right to, you see that it's a very, very wide spectrum of things.

And so that's actually super important to us.

We wanted to make sure that no matter what happens, the FRAX kind of ecosystem is systemically very important.

And sometimes some people in crypto get kind of nervous when they hear systemically important or like too big to fail or something.

But again, it's a decentralized system, right?

You could argue maybe Ethereum is systemically important, but it's a fully decentralized blockchain.

If we build FraxLend, it's not like a centralized lending system, right?

It's an autonomous, decentralized lending system.

If FraxEth actually, the V2 is fully decentralized in every way, right?

So even though we're trying to be kind of everywhere, so to speak, in every kind of thing, it's all still built in fully decentralized permissionless systems.

Yeah, I really do love the approach you guys are taking by diversifying your product suite and kind of making the ecosystem more anti-cyclical, if you will, as blockchain and crypto is extremely cyclical so far.

But you mentioned how important it is to keep a stablecoin pegged to $1.

So under FRAX v3, what are the mechanisms in place to ensure that it is always trading at $1.

So, Frax v3, first of all, it works similar to Frax v2 in the AMOs, right?

Protocol controlled liquidity on like curve, minting Frax into lending markets like FraxLend so that people are able to over collateralize fracks up to points that like governance allows minting and lending caps very similar to a lot of the the same mechanics.

There's 2 new things that Frax v3 introduces that I think most people will be thinking about during this kind of high rate environment.

1 is the staked Frax, the S-Frax vault, which targets the IORB rate if you lend into it.

And then the FRAX bonds, FXB tokens, which are basically essentially kind of like 0 coupon utility tokens.

They convert to FRAX stablecoins at a specific time stamp.

So you can kind of think of them like treasury bills, but they're not tokenized in terms of that you don't have a right to treasury bills or anything.

They're just fully on-chain systems that convert to FRAX stablecoins.

And so 1 thing I kind of wanted to explain is that because Frax now has like a real world asset strategy, some kind of similar to Maker, a little bit different.

We actually have our own pipeline, our own partners, our own custodians.

So we have a public benefit corporation called FinRest BBC.

And the idea behind this is it actually can build the off-chain relationships, it can have brokers, it can have trust protected assets, it can have the same kind of relationships that a real corporation can have And the final goal with this is that once there's regulatory clarity, once there's like actual stablecoin bills that pass Congress or like the current way that stablecoins work or enshrinement to law, and I'm a believer that they will be right.

There's a there's a skeptical view that this will never be there, you know, super illegal or whatever.

I think if that's the correct view that happens in history, then we're all doing this wrong.

So our whole bet is that that that's wrong.

But so once this actually happens, our final goal for this public benefit corporation is to have a Fedmaster account, which means an actual depository account at 1 of the United States Federal Reserve banks that can actually get the IORB rate, which is what the definition of the IORB rate is, the interest on reserve balances that Fed banks pay.

And so that's our real world asset strategy for FRAGS v3, right, and just going forward.

And it's not a real world asset strategy of like deploying capital to emerging markets or like, I don't know, like now there's like the infamous motorcycle loans or something.

And, and the idea, again, like I was saying is for it to get safer over time.

That's why our goal is to get an FMA once there's regulatory clarity, once there's some enshrined stablecoin laws, whether they take years or not.

The whole point is that the real world asset strategy can tap into the risk free rate, the IORB rate and as close to possible.

We're not trying to fund, you know, renewable energy in different markets.

We're not trying to basically we're not trying to back the FRAX stablecoin with anything that can default on its debt, right?

The only thing that can't default on its debt is the issuer of the thing that the debt is denominated in, right?

So which is the dollar is issued by the US government, the Federal Reserve specifically.

The only thing that, you know, most likely cannot default, although there was an interesting scare with the debt ceiling earlier this year as well, is the federal government of the United States, right?

And so that's our real world asset strategy.

Our real world asset strategy is very narrow.

It does not mean that we're going to slowly try to expand to random like other things.

In fact, I might just, you know, I call it the single real world asset strategy, which is there's only 1 real world assets like you need on chain, which is the IORB rate, the risk free rate, right?

Because think about it, once the IORB rate is super high, it's like 5% right now, maybe it goes higher, maybe it stays really high for a while, you need that rate.

It's basically the most important interest rate that's grounded in the real world economy, that's grounded in the price of oil, the price of labor and all these things that blockchains are not, right?

It's the blockchains are just digital, like cyberspace, right?

And once this rate is super low, once everyone is pricing and growth really highly, right?

Like once there's a bull market rates are super low, they're near 0.

Everyone is like making money hand over fist, right?

You don't, You don't need, we're actually in the greatest technology sector in the world, right?

Like crypto, digital assets, all this stuff, the intersection of digital assets, AI and everything.

Once growth premiums come back and rates go very low, you don't need real world assets, right?

Like the best assets are here on chain, right?

If everyone remembers, like people were willing to pay like 10 to 15% to borrow USDC and stables on Aave and Compound because everyone wanted exposure to high growth, innovative, interesting digital assets, protocols and all these things, right?

Those are the environments that are super simple, right?

It's only during extremely high rates, like you were talking about, the cyclical type of situation where this part of the cycle, you need this singular rate that's efficient, scalable on-chain.

And if you can get that, you kind of complete the full loop, right?

And think about right now is not the time either that you want to loan to emerging economies and stuff.

That's when they're also all defaulting, right?

And so like 1 thing for people to take away from this is FraxV3's real world asset strategy is a singular 1.

It's the yield curve of dollars and treasuries on chain.

And there's like those 2 points you hit on.

And of course, we'll get definitely get into S-Frax and FXB after this.

But I like that you call it this like singular approach, Because it's singular in another sense too, in that everything is running through 1 entity with FinRez PBC.

And I find that super, super interesting.

Because again, if you look at MakerDAO, they have all these different partners and kind of pairing with these off-chain assets, and it makes reporting an absolute mess.

And that's kind of 1 of their big pain points.

And this seems to be really, really honing in on improving on 1 of these big pain points.

So I do have a quick question specifically on that, which is how does having just this 1 entity change the reporting?

Because, you know, obviously they're off chain assets.

And so how do you get that information about off-chain assets back on-chain?

So first thing, so, yeah, we have a Delaware C Corporation, very similar.

Again, our bet is that crypto will be great in the US and globally, everything.

And it's a public benefit corporation, the same thing like Optimism, PBC, or all of these kinds of things.

And the reason it's a public benefit corporation is it does not try to maximize revenue or profit by doing these deals with the FRAX protocol.

It basically is a public benefit of interacting with the FRAX protocol and DAO and then having real-world relationships that are able to execute on this singular real world asset strategy.

Like it's not trying to increase its equity value, do raises and these kinds of things.

And eventually, the reason the structure exists is, like I said, eventually the goal is if this can be a public resource, right, to get a Fedmaster account and be able to actually bring the IORB rates on chain in a compliant, proper manner, then this is a huge victory.

And you can't actually do that in any other kind of structure, like you said.

Otherwise, you'd have to work with just various third parties and things like that.

So that's what motivated us to do it like this, so first of all.

And second of all, the reporting is something we take super seriously, right?

Whenever, like you said, it's off-chain, it's never going to ever satisfy 100% of people just because there's no way to actually mathematically confirm everything, right?

People can be like, well, the auditors are in cahoots with them, or they didn't know this, or even just like the FTX thing, you could, you know, people can say you tricked the auditors or something like that, right?

But our goal is to actually basically have a real-time balance sheet of both the on-chain assets, which is super easy.

And then also integrate things like played and APIs that report bank balances, brokerage balances, and all these things, and then immediately have them and combine them with the on-chain balance sheet on fax.frax.finance.

So you can actually see literally day by day everything that is the assets.

And I think that's very important because you can't really do that if there's a bunch of different third parties that don't at least go through 1 final, you know, off-chain custodian like FinRisePBC or something like that, because they'll all report in some other different way.

They might post a PDF, they might have a monthly situation, they might do this or that.

But here, we can actually build the reporting infrastructure as we onboard like different types of partners and things with FinRest BBC.

We'll for sure put the link in the show notes to FRAX.frax.finance because it's an incredible site which you guys have built.

And the other thing I wanted to jam on really quickly was, you know, you mentioned that not only the protocol as a whole is kind of built for this cyclical nature of the industry, but if you zoom in on just the FRAX stablecoin itself, you know, like it too is kind of now getting built on the same spectrum of like high risk assets like crypto and low risk assets like T-bills and cash like equivalents.

And so 1 thing I'm just not like I haven't really grasped yet is how does the collateral backing of FRAX stablecoin change when the IORB rate increases, let's say.

Like how does the How do the assets actually shift from crypto assets and into these RWA assets?

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Inside Frax Finance: Designing the End Game Stablecoin | Sam Kazemian