Piers Morgan Uncensored is joined by best-selling author of 'Sapiens' and historian Yuval Noah Harari and Chief Executive of anti-piracy business TCAT Nick Stewart to discuss the current status of Artificial Intelligence and the potential threat it poses to humankind.

Yuval eloquently explains how AI would be a dictator's dream and could be the basis of some of the worst totalitarian states in human history, as it could monitor people constantly without needing human intelligence. Yuval tells Piers "AI could be the end of democracy" and suggests we slow down the deployment of it until we understand the true and full capabilities of AI.

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Now, they say the camera never lies, but is that true?

It's the winner of a Sony World Photography Award, but the artist who created it ended up rejecting his prize after admitting he made it using artificial intelligence.

Well, the use of AI is seemingly everywhere these days, but the more it's used, the more debate it creates.

Just this afternoon, a song that uses AI to clone the voices of Drake and The Weeknd, to the biggest selling artists in the world, has been removed from streaming services after singing criticism from their music company over copyright laws.

First, let's have a listen to what they normally sound like.

I guess we'll never know what Harvard gets us But seeing my family have it all Took the place of that desire for diplomas on the wall And really, I think I like who I'm becoming There's times where I might do it just to do it like it's nothing

Well, now here's the AI version of Drake of the Weekend.

My nerves she think that I mean her kick her to the curb all I know is you could have had the

Well joining me now is Nick Stewart, a music industry legend and now the chief executive of T-Cat or To Catch a Thief, an anti-piracy business, and from Israel, a historian and his best-selling author at Sapiens, Yuval Noah Harari.

And Nick Stewart, great piece in The Telegraph today, which you were quoted about this song and about that photograph.

Really, I think, demonstrating what a threat AI is to the creative arts.

My question for you is how serious do you think that threat is and should it really matter or is this in its own way another form of art?

Well the threat is huge, We're on the edge of a precipice and I'm not trying to be too dramatic here.

It's come across so quickly as well that's the point.

The 2 tracks that you played I think people need to understand the original it was done by by Drake and The Weeknd.

The AI generator listens to all Drake and all Weeknd and then put something together that comes out as the second track you played.

So there's no artist involved, It is completely generated.

I saw you tapping your fingers to the AI version.

Why couldn't Drake and Weeknd actually think, you know what?

1 is there's a British copyright law, which dates back to 1988.

So you could say it's a bit out of date and it's being tinkered with.

The other thing is passing off, which is not actually on the statute book.

Passing off has been handed down through precedence through judges and passing off is what this is.

But let me ask you this, what if Drake and The Weeknd, like I said, what if they decided to adopt this technology to save them having to come up with new songs?

Artists, and I'm sure if Drake was here, he would say, and he got very cross about another track that had been similarly dealt with.

Artists want to do their own stuff, that's what they're in the game for.

We've had situations in the past with groups who've been doing rip-offs and samples and all the rest of it.

But what about the photograph, which was a beautiful photograph, so good it won an award, before the guy who did it said, well, actually, AI created this.

As a lover of great photography, why should we care if that's been done by artificial intelligence or by an actual human being?

It was done from the Getty Library, wasn't it?

So what they did, they went into the Getty Library and they just picked it again, they scraped it all out, and up it came.

I want to start, if I may, Yuval, by playing...

This is a clip from Elon Musk talking to Tucker Carlson on Fox News last night.

I'm going to start something which I know you called TruthGBT, or a maximum truth-seeking AI that tries to understand the nature of the universe.

And I think this might be the best path to safety in the sense that an AI that cares about understanding the universe is unlikely to annihilate humans because we are an interesting part of the universe.

So Yuval, this came after he said that actually AI could lead to the end of humanity as we know it, if we allow it, because it would be a superior intelligent force which if it managed to break out from human control, could be the end of us.

And that reminded me of a conversation I had with Professor Stephen Hawking in what was his last television interview in which he said this.

Is artificial intelligence going to be the end of us?

And if it's not, how do we best work with it?

Ever since the start of the Industrial Revolution, there have been fears of mass unemployment, as machines replaced humans.

Instead, the demand for goods and services has risen in line with the increased capabilities.

Whether this can continue indefinitely is an open question, But there is a greater danger from artificial intelligence if we allow it to become self-designing For then it can improve itself rapidly and we may lose control

So really interesting that Elon Musk really is now saying what Professor Hawking told me.

How worried should we be about artificial intelligence actually taking control?

We should be very worried, because what we need to understand about AI, artificial intelligence, it is the first tool that can make decisions by itself.

All previous inventions in human history always empowered us.

They always gave us more power because the decisions were always made by humans.

If you invent a knife, the knife cannot decide whether to use it to cut salad, or to murder somebody, or to save their life in surgery.

If you invent an atom bomb, Similarly, the atom bomb cannot decide who to attack, and when, and where.

AI is the first technology that can actually make decisions by itself.

It can make decisions about its own usage and development.

Nukes cannot make better nukes, but AI can make better AI.

And also, AI can make and does make decisions about us.

Increasingly, when you apply to a bank to get a loan, you apply to get a job, It's an AI making crucial decisions about your life.

AI is just making its first tiny baby steps.

You know, to really think about it, think about it as like this is the beginning of organic life, 4000000000 years ago.

This is the first amoeba crawling out of the organic soup.

Can you imagine how Tyrannosaurus Rex would look like, or how Homo sapiens would look like and what we'll be able

Yeah, look, you successfully terrified me and probably all my viewers.

So, how do we save ourselves from the T-rex of AI?

Well, first of all, it can also, of course, be used for good.

And so far, we are still in control, but we don't know for how many years.

And therefore, we need to, first of all, understand the capabilities of AI and slow down its deployment to make sure that we use it wisely and safely.

You know, the same way that a drug company cannot just release a new medicine to the public without going through a very rigorous safety checks, it should be the Same with AI.

Here's the problem, it seems to me, which is it's fine to be well-meaning.

I mean, Elon Musk, I think a lot of what he does, he's a force for good in many ways.

All the stuff he's been involved with is to try and, I think, help rather than damage the planet.

But this AI intelligence is gonna get in the hands of some pretty bad people, or some pretty dodgy regimes.

And they're not going to have any qualms about trying to get the edge over the West or America, wherever it may be.

Is it a bit like nuclear weapons getting into rogue states' hands?

Is it once the wrong people have control of this, then all hell could break loose.

In the hands of the wrong people, AI could be the end of democracy.

AI could also be the basis for the worst totalitarian regimes in human history.

Because, you know, dictators always dreamt about following everybody and monitoring everybody all the time, but they could never do it because, you know, even the Soviet Union, you have 200 million Soviet citizens.

Stalin didn't have 200 million KGB officers to follow everybody around all the time and then to analyse, you need millions of analysts to analyse all the data you collect.

You don't need human agents to follow us around.

Our sound desk, which is 2 days old today, just crashed.

So that's why we went off air a little suddenly in the middle of that debate about AI, as my mother texted me, Oh, my God, has AI taken over?

Which actually was a pretty good way of looking at it.

So I'm rejoined, hopefully, by our 2 guests.

Nick Stewart is with me, and by Yuval in Israel.

Yuval, my apologies for the sudden departure from you there.

Yeah, I don't think it is AI, but you can never be too sure.

Nick, just to round off, you were telling me a story in the break about Oasis.

As I'm sure your viewers know, Oasis, the Gallagher brothers, broke up.

OK, there have been talk of a reconciliation, but at the moment that's not on the table.

If you go on YouTube, you will find something called ISIS, which is A-I-S-I-S, talking about a lost album an AI generator has made.

So if you're an Oasis fan, why would you not want that?

And so, I mean, in terms of bands that have ceased to record.

I mean, would people go down the route of trying to...

Yuval, end on some hope here for us, all right?

I need to feel more hopeful than I do right now, because I basically think the world's going to end quite soon when Terminator comes real.

Do you believe that the planet has the right people in the right place to actually stop that happening?

What we know about technology, that you can use the same technology to build completely different societies.

In the 20th century, some people used trains and radio and electricity to build totalitarian regimes like the Soviet Union, and other people used exactly the same technology to build liberal democracies.

It's the same with AI and with the technologies of the 21st century.

We still have a choice about how to employ them.

I think that AI is nowhere near its full potential.

But also human beings are nowhere near our full potential.

We don't really understand the full potential of our brains, of our minds.

If we invest, if for every dollar and every minute that we invest in developing AI, We'll invest another dollar and minute in developing our own mind and our own consciousness I think we'll be okay


Speaker 0: Welcome back to Peers Morgan Uncensored. Now, they say the camera never lies, but is that true? Take a look at this photograph. It's the winner of a Sony World Photography Award, but the artist who created it ended up rejecting his prize after admitting he made it using artificial intelligence. Well, the use of AI is seemingly everywhere these days, but the more it's used, the more debate it creates.

Just this afternoon, a song that uses AI to clone the voices of Drake and The Weeknd, to the biggest selling artists in the world, has been removed from streaming services after singing criticism from their music company over copyright laws. First, let's have a listen to what they normally sound like.

Speaker 1: I guess we'll never know what Harvard gets us But seeing my family have it all Took the place of that desire for diplomas on the wall And really, I think I like who I'm becoming There's times where I might do it just to do it like it's nothing

Speaker 0: Well, now here's the AI version of Drake of the Weekend.

Speaker 2: Absolutely fascinating. My nerves she think that I mean her kick her to the curb all I know is you could have had the

Speaker 0: world Absolutely fascinating. Well joining me now is Nick Stewart, a music industry legend and now the chief executive of T-Cat or To Catch a Thief, an anti-piracy business, and from Israel, a historian and his best-selling author at Sapiens, Yuval Noah Harari. Well, welcome to both of you. And Nick Stewart, great piece in The Telegraph today, which you were quoted about this song and about that photograph. Really, I think, demonstrating what a threat AI is to the creative arts.

My question for you is how serious do you think that threat is and should it really matter or is this in its own way another form of art?

Speaker 3: Well the threat is huge, We're on the edge of a precipice and I'm not trying to be too dramatic here. It's come across so quickly as well that's the point. The 2 tracks that you played I think people need to understand the original it was done by by Drake and The Weeknd. The AI generator listens to all Drake and all Weeknd and then put something together that comes out as the second track you played. So there's no artist involved, It is completely generated.

Speaker 0: So here's my question for you. I saw you tapping your fingers to the AI version. Spontaneously. You couldn't stop yourself, right? It's a good tune.

Why should we care? Why does it matter? Why couldn't Drake and Weeknd actually think, you know what? This saves us a lot of work.

Speaker 2: OK.

Speaker 3: 2 things. 1 is there's a British copyright law, which dates back to 1988. So you could say it's a bit out of date and it's being tinkered with. The other thing is passing off, which is not actually on the statute book. Passing off has been handed down through precedence through judges and passing off is what this is.

Speaker 0: Which is why it's been removed. Exactly. But let me ask you this, what if Drake and The Weeknd, like I said, what if they decided to adopt this technology to save them having to come up with new songs? Is that possible? Could it be a force for good?

Speaker 3: No. Artists don't do that.

Speaker 0: Even if it was a big hit? It's a good song. Well,

Speaker 3: I know what you're suggesting. Yeah. Artists, and I'm sure if Drake was here, he would say, and he got very cross about another track that had been similarly dealt with. Artists want to do their own stuff, that's what they're in the game for. We've had situations in the past with groups who've been doing rip-offs and samples and all the rest of it.

Real artists want to do their music

Speaker 0: and they

Speaker 3: don't want anybody else.

Speaker 0: But what about the photograph, which was a beautiful photograph, so good it won an award, before the guy who did it said, well, actually, AI created this. As a lover of great photography, why should we care if that's been done by artificial intelligence or by an actual human being?

Speaker 3: Because they've infringed... It was done from the Getty Library, wasn't it? So what they did, they went into the Getty Library and they just picked it again, they scraped it all out, and up it came. And they scraped it so well...

Speaker 1: So it's basically...

Speaker 0: So it's theft, basically.

Speaker 3: It's theft.

Speaker 0: Yeah. OK. Let me bring in Yuval. I want to start, if I may, Yuval, by playing... This is a clip from Elon Musk talking to Tucker Carlson on Fox News last night.

Very interesting, what he said.

Speaker 4: I'm going to start something which I know you called TruthGBT, or a maximum truth-seeking AI that tries to understand the nature of the universe.

Speaker 5: And I think this might be the best path to safety in the sense that an AI that cares about understanding the universe is unlikely to annihilate humans because we are an interesting part of the universe.

Speaker 0: So Yuval, this came after he said that actually AI could lead to the end of humanity as we know it, if we allow it, because it would be a superior intelligent force which if it managed to break out from human control, could be the end of us. And that reminded me of a conversation I had with Professor Stephen Hawking in what was his last television interview in which he said this. Is artificial intelligence going to be the end of us? And if it's not, how do we best work with it?

Speaker 6: Ever since the start of the Industrial Revolution, there have been fears of mass unemployment, as machines replaced humans. Instead, the demand for goods and services has risen in line with the increased capabilities. Whether this can continue indefinitely is an open question, But there is a greater danger from artificial intelligence if we allow it to become self-designing For then it can improve itself rapidly and we may lose control

Speaker 0: So really interesting that Elon Musk really is now saying what Professor Hawking told me. You're an expert in this field. How worried should we be about artificial intelligence actually taking control?

Speaker 7: We should be very worried, because what we need to understand about AI, artificial intelligence, it is the first tool that can make decisions by itself. All previous inventions in human history always empowered us. They always gave us more power because the decisions were always made by humans. If you invent a knife, the knife cannot decide whether to use it to cut salad, or to murder somebody, or to save their life in surgery. If you invent an atom bomb, Similarly, the atom bomb cannot decide who to attack, and when, and where.

AI is the first technology that can actually make decisions by itself. It can make decisions about its own usage and development. Nukes cannot make better nukes, but AI can make better AI. And also, AI can make and does make decisions about us. Increasingly, when you apply to a bank to get a loan, you apply to get a job, It's an AI making crucial decisions about your life.

And we haven't seen anything yet. AI is just making its first tiny baby steps. Yeah. It's something like 10 years old. You know, to really think about it, think about it as like this is the beginning of organic life, 4000000000 years ago.

This is the first amoeba crawling out of the organic soup. Can you imagine how Tyrannosaurus Rex would look like, or how Homo sapiens would look like and what we'll be able

Speaker 2: to do.

Speaker 1: OK, well, look, you successfully... This is the moment

Speaker 0: for AI. Yeah, look, you successfully terrified me and probably all my viewers. So, how do we save ourselves from the T-rex of AI?

Speaker 7: Well, first of all, it can also, of course, be used for good. And so far, we are still in control, but we don't know for how many years. And therefore, we need to, first of all, understand the capabilities of AI and slow down its deployment to make sure that we use it wisely and safely. You know, the same way that a drug company cannot just release a new medicine to the public without going through a very rigorous safety checks, it should be the Same with AI.

Speaker 0: Right, but here's the problem. Here's the problem, it seems to me, which is it's fine to be well-meaning. I mean, Elon Musk, I think a lot of what he does, he's a force for good in many ways. All the stuff he's been involved with is to try and, I think, help rather than damage the planet. But this AI intelligence is gonna get in the hands of some pretty bad people, or some pretty dodgy regimes.

And they're not going to have any qualms about trying to get the edge over the West or America, wherever it may be. That's where I see the real danger. Is it a bit like nuclear weapons getting into rogue states' hands? Is it once the wrong people have control of this, then all hell could break loose.

Speaker 7: In the hands of the wrong people, AI could be the end of democracy. AI could also be the basis for the worst totalitarian regimes in human history. Because, you know, dictators always dreamt about following everybody and monitoring everybody all the time, but they could never do it because, you know, even the Soviet Union, you have 200 million Soviet citizens. Stalin didn't have 200 million KGB officers to follow everybody around all the time and then to analyse, you need millions of analysts to analyse all the data you collect. Now it is becoming possible.

You don't need human agents to follow us around.

Speaker 0: Well, that was exciting. Our sound desk, which is 2 days old today, just crashed. So that's why we went off air a little suddenly in the middle of that debate about AI, as my mother texted me, Oh, my God, has AI taken over? Which actually was a pretty good way of looking at it. So I'm rejoined, hopefully, by our 2 guests.

Nick Stewart is with me, and by Yuval in Israel. Yuval, my apologies for the sudden departure from you there. I'm going to ask Nick...

Speaker 7: Technology never works when you need it.

Speaker 0: Yeah, I don't think it is AI, but you can never be too sure. I will come

Speaker 3: to you

Speaker 0: in a moment, Ivo. Nick, just to round off, you were telling me a story in the break about Oasis. Tell me what that was about.

Speaker 3: As I'm sure your viewers know, Oasis, the Gallagher brothers, broke up. OK, there have been talk of a reconciliation, but at the moment that's not on the table. If you go on YouTube, you will find something called ISIS, which is A-I-S-I-S, talking about a lost album an AI generator has made.

Speaker 0: And what's it like?

Speaker 3: It's uncannily good.

Speaker 0: Right. So if you're an Oasis fan, why would you not want that?

Speaker 3: No, well, the answer is, yes, you would. And so, I mean, in terms of bands that have ceased to record. I mean, would people go down the route of trying to... We've got

Speaker 0: a bit of it here, I think.

Speaker 2: MUSIC PLAYS

Speaker 0: I mean, it is fascinating. Let's go to Yuval, finally. Yuval, end on some hope here for us, all right? I need to feel more hopeful than I do right now, because I basically think the world's going to end quite soon when Terminator comes real. Do you believe that the planet has the right people in the right place to actually stop that happening?

Speaker 7: I hope so. What we know about technology, that you can use the same technology to build completely different societies. In the 20th century, some people used trains and radio and electricity to build totalitarian regimes like the Soviet Union, and other people used exactly the same technology to build liberal democracies. It's the same with AI and with the technologies of the 21st century. We still have a choice about how to employ them.

I think that AI is nowhere near its full potential. But also human beings are nowhere near our full potential. We don't really understand the full potential of our brains, of our minds. If we invest, if for every dollar and every minute that we invest in developing AI, We'll invest another dollar and minute in developing our own mind and our own consciousness I think we'll be okay

Speaker 0: fascinating you've all know a Harari. Thank

Speaker 2: you

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"AI Could Be The End Of Democracy" - Yuval Noah Harari On The Threat Of Artificial Intelligence