- The conversation is with Jared Kushner, former senior advisor to President Trump and author of Breaking History.
- Kushner played a key role in negotiations and achieving results on trade, criminal justice reform, and peace in the Middle East.
- The conversation was recorded before the Hamas attack on Israel, but a second part was added to address the current situation.
- The current situation involves Hamas firing rockets into Israel, infiltrating Israeli territory, killing civilians, and taking hostages.
- Israel has responded with airstrikes in Gaza and is preparing for a potential ground attack.
- The IDF is ordering civilian residents of Gaza to evacuate.
- Benjamin Netanyahu has declared war and ordered a complete siege of Gaza.
- The death toll is over 1,200 people, with over 130 hostages taken by Hamas.
- Gaza has been under blockade by Israel and Egypt since 2007 when Hamas took power.
- Hamas is a Palestinian militant group designated as a terrorist group by several countries.
- Kushner finds the situation heartbreaking and calls for support for Israel in eliminating or degrading Hamas's capabilities.
- He highlights the progress made in the Middle East under President Trump, including defeating ISIS and countering Iran's influence.

- The Middle East was left in a more peaceful state due to crushing sanctions that stopped the funding of terror groups.
- Hamas was originally founded by the Muslim Brotherhood and has attacked Israel multiple times.
- Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, but the Palestinian people's lives have worsened under Hamas's leadership.
- Hamas is holding the Palestinian people hostage and using resources to build military equipment instead of improving lives.
- Iran supports Hamas and wants the destruction of Israel.
- The recent attack is not specifically about the Al-Aqsa Mosque, but the mosque is used as propaganda to justify aggression towards Israel.
- Israel allows peaceful access to the mosque, but the message hasn't effectively disseminated across the Arab world.
- Israel lacks good public relations and needs to combat misinformation.

- The ability for people to connect and do business together can naturally lead to peace and combat misinformation.
- Haj Amin al-Husseini played a role in spreading antisemitism and violence in Israel in the 1920s.
- The Trump administration strengthened the relationship with Israel and created a paradigm for peace in the Middle East.
- The Abraham Accords and the economic plan titled "Peace to Prosperity" aimed to improve the lives of Palestinians and Israelis.
- The plan focused on resolving land disputes, security concerns, and improving governance in the region.
- The main obstacle to progress has been the leadership of Hamas in Gaza, which prioritizes violence over the well-being of the Palestinian people.

- The fear and lack of trust in Hamas has hindered the ability to rebuild and improve the lives of the people in Gaza.
- The Biden administration's policies have weakened the stability in the Middle East, particularly by insulting Saudi Arabia and Russia, stopping domestic oil production, and funding the Palestinians without conditions.
- The administration's approach has also damaged relationships with allies like the United Arab Emirates, who were not supported during attacks from the Houthis.
- The Trump administration's policies were criticized initially but eventually led to positive results in the region, such as the Abraham Accords.
- To address the current situation, it is important to show strength, support Israel, and send a strong message to Iran about the consequences of their actions.
- The focus should be on regaining security in Israel before considering progress towards Israel-Saudi normalization.

- Israel's top priority should be regaining security in the country and eliminating Hamas and Iranian threats.
- The Israeli-Saudi normalization could be a game changer for the region and a nightmare for Iran.
- The current situation calls for a pause in normalization talks with Saudi Arabia.
- Trust and deepening relationships are crucial for progress and safety.
- The end state should be a secure environment for Israel and a better life for the people in Gaza.
- The international community should unite behind Israel and hold Hamas accountable.
- A ground invasion by Israeli forces could have unintended consequences, so caution is necessary.
- The international community has rallied around Israel in response to the attacks.
- Benjamin Netanyahu is a strong and ambitious leader who understands the security apparatus.
- Netanyahu will likely be calculated in the risks he takes to avoid creating unnecessary risk.
- Internal political turmoil in Israel may impact the handling of the current situation.

- The speaker comments on the internal political turmoil in BBOE and relates it to the tragedy that occurred.
- They highlight the vibrant democracy in Israel compared to the lack of democracy and freedom in Palestine.
- The speaker believes that division leaves countries less prepared for situations and that unity is important.
- They discuss the Palestinian support online and believe that many supporters are ill-informed about the facts.
- The speaker emphasizes the distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people, stating that Hamas is the enemy of progress.
- They express hope for Donald Trump to be re-elected in 2024 and believe his administration can bring peace to the Middle East.
- The speaker sees potential for economic growth and development in the Middle East if the right policies and leadership are in place.
- They discuss the importance of defeating hate and promoting understanding and unity among people.
- The speaker believes that most people are good and have love in their hearts.

- The speaker believes that most people have love in their heart, but acknowledges the existence of evil people.
- They discuss their work on prison reform and the importance of giving people second chances.
- They express concern about the negative impact of social media and cancel culture on people's lives.
- The speaker emphasizes the power of connecting with and helping others, and the need for respectful discussions and debates.
- They highlight the importance of trust in negotiations and the need to understand the motivations and power dynamics of the parties involved.
- The speaker shares examples of successful negotiations they have been involved in, including prison reform and the USMCA trade deal.
- They emphasize the need for trust, respect, and a focus on common goals in negotiations.
- The speaker mentions their thoughts and prayers for the people in Israel and Palestine, and their desire for a safer world.

- Jared Kushner, former senior advisor to President Trump, discusses the current situation in Israel and Gaza.
- Hamas has been firing rockets into Israel, infiltrating Israeli territory, killing civilians, and taking hostages.
- Israel has responded with airstrikes in Gaza and is preparing for a potential ground attack.
- The death toll is over 1,200 people, with over 130 hostages taken by Hamas.
- Gaza has been under blockade since 2007 when Hamas took power.
- Kushner calls for support for Israel in eliminating or degrading Hamas's capabilities.
- He highlights the progress made in the Middle East under President Trump, including defeating ISIS and countering Iran's influence.
- The main obstacle to progress has been the leadership of Hamas in Gaza.
- The Biden administration's policies have weakened stability in the Middle East.
- To address the current situation, it is important to show strength, support Israel, and send a strong message to Iran.
- The focus should be on regaining security in Israel before considering progress towards Israel-Saudi normalization.
- The international community should unite behind Israel and hold Hamas accountable.
- A ground invasion by Israeli forces could have unintended consequences, so caution is necessary.
- Benjamin Netanyahu is a strong and ambitious leader who understands the security apparatus.
- The speaker believes that division leaves countries less prepared for situations and that unity is important.
- They discuss the Palestinian support online and believe that many supporters are ill-informed about the facts.
- The speaker emphasizes the distinction between Hamas and the Palestinian people.
- They express hope for Donald Trump to be re-elected in 2024 and believe his administration can bring peace to the Middle East.
- The speaker sees potential for economic growth and development in the Middle East if the right policies and leadership are in place.
- They discuss the importance of defeating hate and promoting understanding and unity among people.
- The speaker believes that most people are good and have love in their hearts.
- They discuss their work on prison reform and the negative impact of social media and cancel culture.
- The speaker emphasizes the power of connecting with and helping others, and the need for respectful discussions and debates.
- They highlight the importance of trust in negotiations and the need to understand the motivations and power dynamics of the parties involved.
- The speaker shares examples of successful negotiations they have been involved in.
- They mention their thoughts and prayers for the people in Israel and Palestine, and their desire for a safer world.

- Trust is earned by being results-driven and speaking truthfully on a human level.
- Being a good partner and learning from past experiences in business is important.
- Leaders are chosen by their country, so it's necessary to understand their strengths and weaknesses.
- The book "The Guns of August" influenced the approach to diplomacy, emphasizing the importance of picking up the phone and trying to find common ground.
- Political prognosticators are often wrong, and outcomes are driven by human decisions.
- The Trump administration took on hard problems and was willing to try and solve them, despite the potential for failure.
- Politicians should not be afraid of failure and should be willing to take on big, bold problems.
- Bringing business people into government can bring a different mindset and challenge traditional qualifications.
- The future can be optimistic if the right leaders are in power and willing to tackle challenges in the right way.
- The trajectory from a potentially catastrophic situation with North Korea to de-escalation and a meeting involved finding back channels and starting dialogue.

- The process of de-escalation and arranging meetings with closed-off countries like North Korea can be challenging but possible
- Operating below the radar allows for experimentation and trying different approaches
- Personal relationships and personalities play a significant role in negotiations and diplomacy
- Miscommunications can lead to unexpected outcomes, as seen in the example of Anwar Sadat's visit to Israel
- Actions and results matter more than words in diplomacy
- Being results-focused is crucial in both the private sector and government work
- Government employees are committed and capable but often need direction and support to achieve their goals.

- The speaker discusses their experience with building a border barrier and the importance of private sector project management skills in government.
- They emphasize the need for more people with private sector experience to contribute to government and serve their country.
- The speaker highlights the inefficiencies of government regulation and the negative consequences it can have.
- They discuss the accusations of collusion with Russia and the impact it had on their personal and political journey.
- The speaker shares their approach to maintaining a calm and clear mind in the face of adversity and not becoming cynical.

- The speaker emphasizes the importance of focusing on what one can control and how they react to situations.
- They discuss the challenges they faced in the White House and the need to stay focused on their job.
- The speaker believes that big challenges should be celebrated and encourages politicians to take risks and think big.
- They credit their wife, Ivanka, for their support and strength during difficult times.
- The speaker reflects on the lessons they learned and how it made them a better person.
- They express admiration for Ivanka's grace and moral compass.
- The speaker and Ivanka share a love for diners in New Jersey, which they see as egalitarian and nostalgic.
- They praise New Jersey for its recent turnaround and highlight its positive attributes.
- The conversation ends with a lighthearted discussion about the different aspects of New Jersey.

- The speaker discusses the positive aspects of New Jersey and the diverse range of people he encounters from the state.
- He then shares the personal story of his father, a successful developer who got into a dispute with his siblings, leading to a public scandal and his arrest.
- Despite the challenging time for the family, the speaker focuses on what he can control and takes on the responsibility of being there for his family and father's business.
- He describes the painful and challenging two years that followed, during which he balanced law school, dealing with legal issues, and supporting his father.
- The experience taught him about life, humanity, loyalty, and the importance of being a true friend.
- The speaker reflects on his father's advice about humility and realizing that one is not in control of everything.
- He attributes his own humility to his upbringing and his mother's teachings.
- The speaker believes that power and money can cloud judgment and corrupt people, but it is important to see the common humanity and not get consumed by the will to power.
- He suggests that keeping faith and staying grounded can help navigate the extremes of lows and highs in life.
- The speaker acknowledges the betrayal his father experienced and recognizes the potential for power and money to corrupt individuals in leadership positions.

- The quote "money just makes you more of what you already are" emphasizes how money and power can amplify people's behaviors, both positive and negative.
- The speaker believes that having the right leaders and good friends can help prevent negative behaviors caused by power and responsibility.
- The speaker discusses their involvement in passing the First Step Act, a prison and criminal justice reform bill, which aimed to provide rehabilitation and second chances for offenders.
- The bill allowed certain offenders to become eligible for earlier release if they went through training programs to reduce their chances of reoffending.
- The bill also addressed racial disparities in sentencing for crack cocaine offenses.
- The speaker worked closely with both Democrats and Republicans, as well as law enforcement and the ACLU, to pass the bill.
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of trust and building relationships in Washington, but acknowledges that politicians often prioritize their own interests over personal relationships.

- Trust is earned through results-driven actions and truthful communication.
- Good partnership and learning from past experiences in business are important.
- Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of leaders chosen by their country is necessary.
- "The Guns of August" influenced diplomacy by emphasizing the importance of finding common ground.
- Political prognosticators are often wrong, and human decisions drive outcomes.
- The Trump administration took on difficult problems and was willing to try and solve them.
- Politicians should not fear failure and should tackle big, bold problems.
- Bringing business people into government challenges traditional qualifications.
- The future can be optimistic with the right leaders willing to tackle challenges.
- De-escalation and arranging meetings with closed-off countries like North Korea is challenging but possible.
- Personal relationships and personalities play a significant role in negotiations.
- Miscommunications can lead to unexpected outcomes in diplomacy.
- Actions and results matter more than words.
- Results-focused approach is crucial in both private sector and government work.
- Government employees need direction and support to achieve their goals.
- Private sector project management skills are important in government.
- More people with private sector experience should contribute to government.
- Government regulation can be inefficient and have negative consequences.
- The speaker discusses accusations of collusion with Russia and their impact.
- Maintaining a calm and clear mind in adversity is important.
- Focus on what one can control and how they react to situations.
- Challenges faced in the White House and the need to stay focused on the job.
- Big challenges should be celebrated and politicians should take risks.
- The speaker credits their wife, Ivanka, for support and strength.
- Lessons learned made the speaker a better person.
- The speaker praises New Jersey for its positive attributes.
- The speaker shares a personal story about their father's scandal and arrest.
- Balancing law school, legal issues, and supporting their father was challenging.
- The experience taught about life, humanity, loyalty, and being a true friend.
- Humility and realizing lack of control are important lessons.
- Power and money can corrupt, but common humanity should be seen.
- Keeping faith and staying grounded helps navigate extremes in life.
- The speaker acknowledges the potential for power and money to corrupt.
- Having the right leaders and good friends can prevent negative behaviors.
- The speaker discusses their involvement in passing the First Step Act.
- The bill aimed to provide rehabilitation and second chances for offenders.
- It addressed racial disparities in sentencing for crack cocaine offenses.
- Trust and building relationships are important in Washington, but personal interests often take priority.

- Politicians are like gladiators, constantly facing competition and backstabbing
- Political dynamics are complex and require careful calculation to avoid destabilization
- Humility and willingness to let go of power are important qualities for a good politician
- Some leaders prioritize short-term or selfish actions for the sake of maintaining power
- The game of politics can bring out the worst in people, leading to dark actions
- Social media is changing the power dynamic and allowing for more transparency in information
- Mohammed bin Salman is a high-energy, well-read, and reform-minded leader in Saudi Arabia
- He thinks with a business mindset and has brought a different energy to the Middle East
- He sets ambitious goals and is willing to take on multiple initiatives to achieve them

- Jared Kushner was initially critical of Saudi Arabia but agreed to meet with a representative during the transition period
- He discussed the need for changes in how Saudi Arabia treats women, their relationship with Israel, and their financing of extremism
- A respected minister from Saudi Arabia proposed a partnership and Kushner agreed to consider it
- President Trump agreed to work with the deputy crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman (MBS), based on Kushner's recommendation
- Many people doubted the success of the trip, but Kushner believed in the potential for change
- Kushner and MBS worked together to plan the trip and negotiate agreements
- Kushner's willingness to break rules and his lack of historical context may have contributed to his success in solving complex problems

- The speaker believes in taking a different approach to solving problems rather than following the accepted way of doing things.
- The speaker discusses Vision 2030, a plan created by Mohammed bin Salman (MBS) for the future of Saudi Arabia, which sets goals and aims for economic and security integration in the Middle East.
- MBS takes responsibility for the Jamal Khashoggi case and promises reforms to prevent similar incidents in the future.
- The speaker acknowledges the impact of the Khashoggi case on creating tension between the United States and Saudi Arabia, but emphasizes the need to focus on creating safety, security, and opportunities for people.
- Achieving peace in the Middle East, particularly between Israel and Palestine, is difficult due to structural issues and flawed incentive structures.

- The speaker proposed a detailed peace plan for Israel-Palestine, but it was criticized without being thoroughly examined.
- The speaker created a slide showing the history of peace discussions and conflicts, highlighting the expansion of Israeli settlements and the increase in funds to the Palestinians.
- The speaker believed that the previous approach to negotiations was flawed and lacked a focus on actual solutions.
- The speaker developed a new approach by writing down a proposed solution and encouraging both sides to provide specific feedback.
- The speaker identified two main issues to be addressed: territorial contiguity and security.
- The speaker also emphasized the importance of resolving the issue of religious sites, particularly the Al-Aqsa Mosque.
- The speaker argued that addressing economic issues, such as ensuring money reaches the Palestinian people and creating opportunities for jobs and ownership, could contribute to peace.
- The speaker highlighted the need for transparency and conditions-based aid to the Palestinians.

- The international community needs to make aid conditions-based and fight for transparency in order to solve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
- The Palestinian Authority is corrupt and needs reform.
- The UNRWA was created to perpetuate the conflict and deflect from Arab leaders' shortcomings.
- Increasing diplomatic relations with Israel will benefit the economy of the West Bank.
- The divide in the Muslim world is between leaders who want to create economic reforms and those who use religion or fear to stay in power.
- Arab-Israeli normalization, such as the Abraham Accords, has brought Jews and Muslims together and transformed the mindset of the people.
- Normalization allows for travel, communication, and business between previously disparate worlds.
- The power of conversation and human interaction can bridge gaps and show commonalities between people.
- The current situation is a return to a time when Jews and Muslims lived peacefully together.
- This is the beginning of the end of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the start of togetherness.

- The speaker discusses the importance of religious respect and understanding as a means to reduce conflict.
- The speaker addresses recent attacks on his investment firm, explaining his decision to start a new business after leaving government and emphasizing his adherence to laws and ethics.
- The speaker praises Donald Trump's unpredictability, pragmatism, and desire for results as his biggest strengths as a leader.
- The speaker shares an example of Trump's willingness to listen and act controversially, citing the case of Alice Johnson's clemency.
- The speaker discusses how Trump's unpredictability in foreign policy negotiations kept other countries on their toes and led to successful outcomes, such as the USMCA trade deal.
- The speaker defends Trump's presidency, highlighting his avoidance of new wars, peace deals, and economic success.
- The speaker believes that if Trump had won the presidency again, the war in Ukraine would have been avoided, as Trump had no issues with Russia during his time in office.

- Politicians face competition and backstabbing in a complex political environment
- Mohammed bin Salman is a high-energy, reform-minded leader in Saudi Arabia
- Jared Kushner played a role in improving US-Saudi relations and worked on peace negotiations in the Middle East
- The speaker proposes a new approach to solving the Israel-Palestine conflict
- The speaker emphasizes the importance of economic reforms and transparency in aid for Palestinians
- Arab-Israeli normalization has brought Jews and Muslims together and is a step towards peace
- The speaker discusses the importance of religious respect and understanding to reduce conflict
- The speaker defends Donald Trump's presidency, highlighting his strengths as a leader and successful outcomes in foreign policy negotiations.

- Russia has played the US and China against each other in the past, but was not getting much from their alliance with China.
- Russia took Georgia under Bush, Crimea under Obama, and had no problems under Trump.
- The misplayed actions of Biden provoked Russia to invade Ukraine, which is unacceptable.
- Trust is essential for productive negotiations between leaders.
- Zelensky cannot publicly express the need for an off-ramp in the conflict.
- A mediator is needed to create a landing zone for successful negotiations.
- Leadership is necessary to bring Putin and Zelensky to the table.
- The US posture has made it difficult to gain Russia's trust.
- Countries can change alliances, as seen in history.
- Understanding Putin's perspective on Russia's history and security concerns is important.
- Allowing Ukraine into NATO has always been a red line for Russia.

- Ukraine's entry into NATO was a red line for Russia, so the US never offered it and instead focused on arming Ukraine and avoiding conflict.
- The book "Prisoners of Geography" provides insights into Russia's concerns about NATO expansion and the role of geography in conflicts.
- The first call between Donald Trump and Xi Jinping was set up to improve US-China relations after a phone call between Trump and the head of Taiwan upset China.
- The meeting between Trump and Xi at Mar-a-Lago was successful, with a focus on trade and North Korea, and a show of respect for Chinese culture.
- The Trump administration took a tough stance on China's trade practices, implementing tariffs and engaging in negotiations.
- The book "The 100-Year Marathon" offers a different perspective on China's rise and the need for economic parity.
- The hope is for the US and China to work together rather than against each other in the 21st century.

- The video discusses the perspective that China was working to reclaim its position as the global leader from 1949 to 2049.
- China strategically fought its way back to power after being a second-class country for 100 years.
- China used Nixon and Carter to gain access to US knowledge and technology.
- China engaged in unfair trade practices, stealing intellectual property and ignoring international trade rules.
- China became the world's manufacturing hub and implemented the Belt and Road Initiative to secure trade routes.
- Trump's goal was to maintain US advantage over China and create a level playing field in trade.
- China's dominance in industries like solar panels and rare earths posed a threat to the US.
- The speaker's low-key approach allowed for maneuverability and trust-building.
- The speaker recounts a funny story about wearing a bulletproof vest in Iraq.
- Communication was not the speaker's strong suit, but there were others in Washington who excelled at it.

- Jared Kushner discusses his approach to work and life, emphasizing the importance of hard work and continuous learning.
- He advises young people to step out of their comfort zones and say "yes" to new opportunities.
- Kushner shares a lesson from his father about being punctual and taking responsibility for one's actions.
- He emphasizes the importance of doing the right thing and being good to people in order to achieve long-term success.
- Kushner describes his process of learning, which involves talking to people, reading extensively, and iterating on his plans.
- He shares a story about seeking advice from leaders in the Middle East and the value of listening and asking questions.
- Kushner discusses the need for open and respectful conversations to address societal issues.
- He expresses hope for the future, citing the potential for technological advancements and improvements in healthcare and science.
- Kushner believes that anyone can make a positive impact if they have the courage to try and work towards meaningful goals.

- Russia has played the US and China against each other in the past, but gained little from their alliance with China.
- The actions of Biden provoked Russia to invade Ukraine, which is seen as unacceptable.
- Trust is crucial for productive negotiations between leaders.
- A mediator is needed to create a landing zone for successful negotiations between Putin and Zelensky.
- The US posture has made it difficult to gain Russia's trust.
- Understanding Putin's perspective on Russia's history and security concerns is important.
- Allowing Ukraine into NATO has always been a red line for Russia.
- The Trump administration took a tough stance on China's trade practices.
- China strategically fought its way back to power and engaged in unfair trade practices.
- Trump aimed to maintain US advantage over China and create a level playing field in trade.
- Jared Kushner emphasizes the importance of hard work, continuous learning, and doing the right thing to achieve success.
- Kushner believes that anyone can make a positive impact if they have the courage to try and work towards meaningful goals.

Jared Kushner is a former Senior Advisor to President Donald Trump and author of Breaking History.

Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
- InsideTracker: https://insidetracker.com/lex to get 20% off
- BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/lex to get 10% off
- Eight Sleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings
- AG1: https://drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil

TRANSCRIPT:
https://lexfridman.com/jared-kushner-transcript

EPISODE LINKS:
Breaking History (book): https://amzn.to/3QblTNk
Jared's Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaredkushner
Jared's Instagram: https://instagram.com/jaredckushner
Books Mentioned:
Prisoners of Geography: https://amzn.to/3tubxzf
The Guns of August: https://amzn.to/3FbWD3c
Thirteen Days in September: https://amzn.to/3Fb3EkM
The Great Degeneration: https://amzn.to/4921WQv
The Hundred-Year Marathon: https://amzn.to/3LRobP7
Destined for War: https://amzn.to/3rKwGEE

PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOdP_8GztsuKi9nrraNbKKp4
Clips playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrAXtmErZgOeciFP3CBCIEElOJeitOr41

OUTLINE:
=== Recorded on Mon, Oct 9 ===
0:00 - Introduction
1:17 - Hamas attack on Israel
4:10 - Response to attack
10:28 - History of Hamas
13:09 - Iran
14:55 - Al-Aqsa Mosque
21:20 - Abraham Accords
30:14 - Trump vs Biden on Middle East
39:15 - Israeli-Saudi Normalization
43:26 - How the Israel-Gaza war ends
47:44 - Benjamin Netanyahu
51:21 - Palestinian support
54:01 - Trump 2024
57:30 - Human nature
=== Recorded on Thu, Oct 5 ===
1:04:28 - Geopolitics and negotiation
1:13:10 - North Korea
1:21:50 - Personalities of leaders
1:28:25 - Government bureaucracy
1:34:11 - Accusations of collusion with Russia
1:43:50 - Ivanka
1:49:45 - Father
1:58:28 - Money and power
2:07:11 - Trust and betrayal
2:16:12 - Mohammed bin Salman
2:38:31 - Israeli–Palestinian peace process
2:53:01 - Abraham Accords and Arab-Israeli normalization
3:03:07 - Donald Trump
3:08:13 - War in Ukraine
3:13:29 - Vladimir Putin
3:20:48 - China
3:39:04 - Learning process
3:45:34 - Hope for the future

SOCIAL:
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman
- Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman
- Reddit: https://reddit.com/r/lexfridman
- Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman

The following is a conversation with Jared Kushner, former senior advisor to the president during the Donald Trump administration and author of Breaking History, a White House memoir.

He's 1 of the most influential and effective presidential advisors in modern history, helping conduct negotiations with some of the most powerful leaders in the world and deliver results on trade, criminal justice reform, and historic progress towards peace in the Middle East.

On Thursday, October 5th, we recorded a conversation on topics of war and peace, history and power in the Middle East and beyond.

This was about a day and a half before the Hamas attack on Israel.

And then we felt we must sit down again on Monday, October 9th, and add a discussion on the current situation.

We opened the podcast with the second newly recorded part.

My heart goes out to everyone who has and is suffering in this war.

I pray for your strength and for the long-term peace and flourishing of the Israeli and Palestinian people.

And now, dear friends, here's Jared Kushner.

We did a lot of this conversation before the Hamas attack on Israel and we decided to sit down again and finish the discussion to address the current situation which is still developing.

If I may, allow me to summarize the situation as it stands today.

On Saturday, October 7th, at 6.30am Israel time, Hamas fired thousands of rockets into southern Israel.

The rocket attack served as cover for a multi-pronged infiltration of Israel territory by over 1,000 Hamas militants.

The Hamas militants went door to door in border towns, killing civilians and taking captives, including women and children.

In response to this, Israeli Air Force began carrying out strikes in Gaza, also fighting on the ground in Israel to clear out Hamas militants from Israel territory and preparing to mobilize Israeli troops for potential ground attack on Hamas in Gaza.

Now, of course, this is what it appears to be right now, and this, along with other things, might change, because the situation is still developing.

The IDF is ordering civilian residents of Gaza to evacuate their homes for their safety.

Benjamin Netanyahu declared war in several statements and warned Israelis to brace themselves for a long and difficult war.

Just today, Israeli ministers ordered a quote, complete siege of Gaza, interrupting supplies of electricity, food, water, and fuel from Israel to Gaza.

As of now, October 9th, the death toll is over 1,200 people and over 130 hostages taken to Gaza by Hamas.

So as I said, the events are rapidly unfolding, so these numbers will sadly increase.

But hopefully our words here can at least in part speak to the timeless underlying currents of the history and as you write about the power dynamics of the region.

So for people who don't know, Gaza is a 25 miles long, 6 miles wide strip of territory along the Mediterranean Sea.

It borders Israel on the east and north and Egypt on the southwest.

It's densely populated, about 2.3 million people, and there's been a blockade of Gaza by Israel and Egypt since 2007 when Hamas took power.

I could just summarize that Hamas is a Palestinian militant group which rules the Gaza Strip.

It originated in 1988 and it came to power in Gaza in 2006.

As part of its charter, it's sworn to the destruction of Israel and it is designated by the United States, European Union, UK, and of course Israel as a terrorist group.

So given that context, what are your feelings as a human being, and what is your analysis as the former senior advisor to the president under the Trump administration of the current situation in Israel and Gaza.

So I think you did an excellent job of summarizing a lot of the context, but watching what's unfolded over the last 48 hours has been truly heartbreaking to see.

We're still in the early stages of what's developing, but seeing the images on X of militants, terrorists going door to door with machine guns, gunning down innocent civilians, seeing beheaded Israeli soldiers, seeing young 20-year-olds at a rave dance party to celebrate peace with militants flying in and then shooting machine guns to kill people indiscriminately, seeing young children captive and held prisoner, seeing 80-year-old grandmothers, a Holocaust survivor, also being taken captive.

These are just images and actions that we have not seen in this world since 9-11.

This is a terror attack on the scale of which we have not seen, and it's been incredibly hard for a lot of people to comprehend.

My heart goes out obviously to all of the families of the victims, to the families of those who are held in captive now, and to all of Israel, because 1 of the beautiful things about the state of Israel is that when 1 Israeli is hurting, the entire nation comes together.

It's a shame that it's taking an action like this to unify the nation, but I have seen incredibly beautiful signs over the last 48 hours of a country coming together.

The Jewish people have been under oppression before.

And seeing people rally together to fight for their homeland to try to reestablish safety is a very beautiful thing to watch.

I wish it wasn't something we had to watch, but it is.

With that being said, though, the backdrop, I've been speaking to friends over the last couple of days.

1 friend I spoke with last night who was saying that, you know, a good friend messaged him saying I'm going in, we're gonna do some operations to try to free some of the hostages held in 1 of the kibbutzes, messaged him the next morning, he was 1 of the first through the door to try to free these hostages.

And sadly, we're gonna be hearing many, many more stories of brave Israeli soldiers trying to get these terrorists out of Israel, trying to free innocent civilians who unfortunately are risking their lives to do it.

And, you know, they're all heroes, but some will have a less good fate than others, sadly.

So it's a very, very heartbreaking moment.

And I do think that it's very important at this moment in time for the entire world to stand behind Israel.

I think that Hamas has shown the entire world who they really are.

I think what their aim is, what they're willing to do, and all of the strong security that Israel's put in place over the last years, which in some instances was criticized, I think is now being validated, that there was a real threat that they were looking to deter.

So short answer is my heart is broken, praying for peace, praying for strength, praying for Israel to do what it needs to do to avoid being in this situation again, which is either eliminating or severely degrading Hamas's capabilities.

There cannot be peace in Israel and in the Middle East while there is a terror group that is being funded by Iran that is allowed to flourish and is allowed to plan operations that are gonna aim to kill innocent civilians.

And so as somebody who was formerly in this position, who was intimately involved with Israel, with the strategies to minimize attacks from Hamas and to try to turn the region around.

And I think we did do a very substantial job under President Trump.

The Middle East went from 1 of the most chaotic regions in the world.

They were planning attacks all over the world from their caliphate.

They were using the internet to radicalize people.

We had the San Bernardino shooting in America.

We had the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando, and there was real threat.

And then you had Iran, which was given $150 billion in a glide path to a nuclear weapon.

And they were using their newfound riches to fund Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, different rebels all over the region that were looking to destabilize further.

Syria was in a civil war where 500,000 people were killed.

And it was just a mess and all of America's allies had felt betrayed.

We rebuilt the trust and the relationships with all of our traditional allies.

We were able to eliminate ISIS, the territorial caliphate, and then we were able to project strength in the region, really go after Iran's wallet.

We were able to stop through crushing sanctions a lot of their financial resources, which they were using to fund all these terror groups.

And so we left the Middle East with 6 peace deals and a fairly peaceful world.

So seeing what's happening, I think it was completely avoidable.

I think it's horrible to see that it's occurring.

And I pray that those in power will make the right decisions to restore safety, but also to potentially create a better paradigm for peace in

So I have a lot of questions to ask you about the journey towards this historic progress, towards peace with Abraham, of course, but first on this situation, to step back and some of the history, is there things about the history of Hamas in Gaza that's important to understand, and what is happening now?

Just your comments, your thoughts, your understanding of Hamas.

I think you did an excellent job, Lex, of really giving the summary.

Just a couple things maybe I'll add to it is that Hamas was originally founded from the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which is a group that's caused a lot of issues in the region.

They've attacked Israel many times in the past.

There's a lot of discussion about how Israel is an occupying power.

Well, in Gaza in 2005, they withdrew from all the land, and then they say Israel's an apartheid state.

Well, Israel then gave governance of the region to the Palestinians.

And then what's happened is, is the Palestinian people's lives have now gone down, not up since then.

I will say that under Hamas's leadership in Gaza, the people who have suffered the most are the Palestinian people.

And I see, I've watched cries throughout my time in government from people saying, we wanna see the Palestinian people live a better life.

I think that the Palestinian people in Gaza are essentially hostages in Gaza.

You have basically 2.2 million people that are being held hostage by 30,000 Hamas terrorists.

And I would just encourage people to push their attention and energy in this moment and their anger towards Hamas.

Those are the people who are killing innocent civilians, who are murdering indiscriminately.

And those are the people who have held back the Palestinians from having a better life.

And just finally, what I would say is, you know, what we saw with Hamas was that if you go back to 2007, they basically had just 1 plan that they did over and over.

And we were very careful to try to monitor very closely and stop the Iranian money and the resources from coming in.

And again, we took a little bit of criticism from the international community from keeping the border tight.

But unfortunately, every time you'd allow construction materials to go into Gaza, they'd use them to build tunnels, not homes.

You would have equipment that would come in to build pipes, they'd turn it into bombs.

So it was very, very hard to figure out how do you get the resources into Gaza to help people have a better life, while at the same time the leadership in Gaza was taking all those resources and turning it into military equipment to attack Israel.

What role does Iran play in this war, in this connection to Hamas?

Can you speak to the connection between Hamas and Iran that's important to understand, especially as this most recent attack unfolds.

Sure, so the correlation, I mean, there's reports that Iran is behind the attack.

Hamas has thanked Iran for their support, And it's been very well known that Iran supports the destruction of the state of Israel.

And I won't say Iran as a country, I'll talk about Iran in the leadership.

There's actually a beautiful thing I saw on the internet where at 1 of the soccer games in Iran, they were trying to rally support for the Hamas terror attacks.

And a lot of people in the crowds were chanting, you know, FU to the regime, because I think the Iranian people, the Persian people generally are peace loving people who don't wanna see this focus on destruction and annihilation.

when the Iranian government had resources, the region was less safe.

And since now there's been more resources allowed to go to the Iranian regime by lack of enforcement of sanctions.

And as a result, Iran is funding Hezbollah, Hamas, they were funding the Houthis, now there's a little bit of a detente between Saudi and Iran, which has led to that going down, which only further proves that Iran was behind the Houthis, which is what the Saudis had been saying for years and Iran was denying.

So there's a very strong relationship between the 2.

And we always knew that the way that Iran fights wars or fights conflicts is never directly, it's usually through its proxies.

And in this case, Hamas has been a proxy for Iran, who wanted to obviously see the destruction of Israel, but also does not want to see the Israelis and the Saudis come together for a peace agreement.

So the name of this operation, of the Hamas operation is Al-Aqsa flood, referring to the Al-Aqsa mosque.

How much of this attack is about the Al-Aqsa mosque?

In actuality, I don't think any of it is, but the Al-Aqsa mosque is something that all of the Shia jihadists have used for years in order to justify their actions that are aggressive towards Israel.

So this is something I'll maybe even take a step back and go through.

When I was working initially in my first year on the peace plan, I was doing a lot of listening.

And quite frankly, a lot of what people were saying to me didn't make sense.

And the reason why I was trying to figure out, they were talking about sovereignty over Al-Aqsa Mosque.

The Al-Aqsa Mosque is a mosque that's built in the holy of Holies, the Haram al-Sharif in Israel, where the Jewish Beit Hamikdash, the holy temple, was built in a very religious place about after the temple was destroyed.

Then there was a big mosque built there, and it's 1 of the more holy places in Islam now.

So the big thing everyone was saying is what do you do with this land where you have a mosque built over a very big Jewish site?

And I was hearing all of the experts, and I always say experts with quotes because only in Washington can you work on something for a decade and continue to fail, and then you basically leave and are considered an expert.

But that's 1 of the problems with Washington, which maybe we could talk about later.

But the notion here was I went and I said, let me try to understand what the issue is with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with the people, right?

I always felt the politicians were a little disconnected.

So I commissioned several focus groups, 1 in Amman, 1 in Cairo, 1 in Dubai, and 1 in Ramallah.

And I asked people, Muslims, what is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict about?

And time and time again, the most popular thing that they said was that Israel was not allowing access to the mosque for Muslims to pray.

And what was interesting was, is that Israel's policy is to allow anyone who wants to come and pray peacefully at the sites to come and pray.

Sometimes they have security issues when there's provocations, but by and large, since 1967, when Israel was able to take back Jerusalem in a defensive war.

Just to be very clear, they were attacked in the South and they were attacked from the East and they basically were able to beat back the Jordanians and the Egyptians and then reconquer the old city of Jerusalem.

And during that time, immediately after Israel then passed the Protection of Holy Places Law, which was they basically took resources they didn't have and they said, we're gonna restore the Christian sites, the Muslim sites, the Jewish sites, and they've worked to allow everyone access to the mosque.

So today, any Muslim who wants to come can come and pray at the mosque.

The mosque is, Israel's acknowledged that King Abdullah, the King of Jordan, is the custodian of the mosque.

And as long as people wanna come to the country and pray peacefully, they're able to do that.

But if you look at a lot of the propaganda that's been used by ISIS or Iran to recruit terrorists or to justify their incursions, they often say they're doing it in the name of liberating the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

But from an operational and pragmatic perspective today, any Muslim who wants to go to the mosque, you can book a flight to Israel now through Dubai because there's flights between Israel and Dubai.

And as long as your country has relations with Israel and they'll accept your passport in there, you can come and pray and that's what Israel wants.

Israel wants Jerusalem to be a place where all religions can come and celebrate together, but you have a lot of actors that look to find ways to use these religious tensions in order to sow division and justify violent behavior.

I wonder how it's possible to lessen the effectiveness of that propaganda message that a lot of the war, a lot of the attacks are about access to the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

Is there something you can speak to why that message hasn't disseminated across the Arab world?

They're not very good traditionally with public relations.

You know, after the Abraham Accords, you know, We made the first Abraham Accords deal in August 2020, and then we made 5 other deals.

We first did United Arab Emirates, then we did a deal with Bahrain, then we did a deal with Kosovo, then we did a deal with Sudan, then we did a deal with Morocco.

And then we got the GCC deal done as well, the tension between Qatar, Saudi, UAE, Egypt, and Bahrain.

And that was allowing us to create a pathway to then pursue the Israeli-Saudi normalization.

So we had so much momentum then that the goal was just keep getting more countries to normalize relations with Israel.

Once you create the connection between people and create the ability for people to do business together, the ability for flights to fly between, then you would just start naturally having people coming and everyone has a smartphone today so they can then post and combat the misinformation that's been out there.

But this misinformation is not something that's new.

You know, 1 of the characters who played a very big role in spreading the antisemitism and the violence in Israel in the 1920s was a guy named Haj Amin al-Husseini, who was known as the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

He was very close with Hitler and Mussolini, and he was working with them to try to get some claims to the Middle East once the Jewish people were annihilated.

And what he did for a very long time was he did the same shtick, only it was before you had smartphones and YouTube, where he would say, the mosque is under attack, these imperialist Zionists are coming in to try to destroy the mosque.

And he would use that to raise money from Indonesia, from Pakistan, from all over the world, and then use that threat to justify recruiting, you know, groups of young vulnerable Muslim men and then, you know, getting them in the name of religious rights to go and kill people, which is not, which really is more of a perversion of the religion than I think the true essence of what Islam is.

I think Islam at its core is a peaceful religion.

And I think that's where a lot of the great leaders in Islam wanna take it.

But the people who use Islam or the mosque or as a justification for violence, those are people who I think are really, they are disrespecting the Islam religion.

As you said, you helped make major strides towards peace in

the Middle East with the Abraham Accords.

Can you describe what it took to accomplish this?

And maybe this will help us understand what broke down and led to the tragedy this week.

Yeah, so, you know, I always believed in foreign policy.

I learned very quickly that the difference between a political deal and a business deal is that In a business deal, you have a problem set, you come to a conclusion, and then if you buy or sell something, you either have more cash or you have a company, so you have more to do, less to do.

Political problem set is very different, where the conclusion of a problem set is essentially the beginning of a new paradigm.

So when I would think about how do you move pieces around the board, you couldn't say, let me just solve the problem.

You have to think about what happens the day after the signing and how do you create a paradigm that has positivity to it.

So the biggest piece of what President Trump did during his 4 years in office was he really strengthened the relationship with Israel, number 1.

And he did things like recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

We did an economic conference in Bahrain where we brought Israelis to meet with Saudi and Emirati and Qatari businessmen and everyone came together.

And each 1 of these instances were unthinkable previously.

And everyone said that if you did it, the world was gonna end.

And every time President Trump did 1, the next morning, the sun rose, the next evening, the sun set, and things moved on.

And so by doing that, what President Trump did was he slaughtered a lot of the sacred cows of these false barriers that people had erected and showed people that the vast majority of the people in the Middle East, whether they're Jewish, Muslim, Christian, whatever religion they are, they just wanna live better lives.

And so what we basically did was create a paradigm where the voices for peace, the voices for together, now finally had a forum where they were able to do it.

The way we were able to be successful was we severely limited the resources of Iran and they were focused more internally and they couldn't cause the trouble that they were causing everywhere else.

Since we've left, obviously the dynamics have changed, but the way you get to peace is obviously, number 1, through strength and number 2, by finding a way for people to be better off tomorrow than they are today.

And what I found was that most of the voices looking for violence or trouble were people who were just focused on what happened 2 years ago, 20 years ago, 70 years ago, a thousand years ago, people who are trying to solve those problems in that context, often we're looking more to use those past grievances as a justification for their power and for the bad behavior that they were looking to perpetuate.

So managing, as we have talked about extensively, managing the power dynamics of the region and providing a plan.

This is something you did with the economic plan titled peace to prosperity, a vision to improve the lives of the Palestinian and Israeli people.

Can you first of all describe what's in the plan?

I was working on the political framework between the Israelis and the Palestinians and trying to understand what were the issues.

It basically was you had a land dispute, you had to figure out where do you put borders ultimately.

You had a security paradigm, which I was much more favorable to Israel's perspective on.

And obviously the events of the past 48 hours have fully justified that bias.

See all Lex Fridman transcripts on Youtube

Jared Kushner: Israel, Palestine, Hamas, Gaza, Iran, and the Middle East | Lex Fridman Podcast #399