This is a clip from a conversation with Chris Urmson on the Artificial Intelligence podcast. You can watch the full conversation here: http://bit.ly/313K4Rf If you enjoy these, consider subscribing, sharing, and commenting below.

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Chris Urmson was the CTO of the Google Self-Driving Car team, a key engineer and leader behind the Carnegie Mellon autonomous vehicle entries in the DARPA grand challenges and the winner of the DARPA urban challenge. Today he is the CEO of Aurora Innovation, an autonomous vehicle software company he started with Sterling Anderson, who was the former director of Tesla Autopilot, and Drew Bagnell, Uber's former autonomy and perception lead.

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You said LiDAR came into the game early on and it's really the primary driver of autonomous vehicles today as a sensor.

So How important is the role of LIDAR in the sensor suite in the near term?

But I also believe the cameras are essential and I believe the radar is essential.

I think that you really need to use the composition of data from these different sensors if you want the thing to really be robust.

The question I want to ask, let's see if we can untangle it, is what are your thoughts on the Elon Musk provocative statement that LiDAR is a crutch, that is a kind of, I guess, growing pains.

And that's much of the perception task can be done with cameras.

So I think it is undeniable that people walk around without lasers in their foreheads and they can get into vehicles and drive them.

And so there's an existence proof that you can drive using passive vision.

So like there's there's an example that you know, we all go do it many of us every day In terms of LIDAR being a crutch Sure, but but you know in the same way that You know, the combustion engine was a crutch on the path to an electric vehicle, in the same way that any technology ultimately gets replaced by some superior technology in the future.

And really, the way that I look at this is that the way we get around on the ground, the way that we use transportation is broken.

And that we have this, I think the number I saw this morning, 37,000 Americans killed last year on our roads.

And so any technology that we can bring to bear that accelerates this self-driving technology, coming to market and saving lives, is technology we should be using.

And it feels just arbitrary to say, well, you know, I'm, I'm not okay with using lasers because that's whatever, but I am okay with using an 8 megapixel camera or a 16 megapixel camera.

You know, like it's just, these are just bits of technology and we should be taking the best technology from the tool bin that allows us to go and you know, and solve a problem.

The question I often talk to, well, obviously you do as well to, the sort of automotive companies.

And you know, if there's 1 word that comes up more often than anything, it's costs and, and, trying to drive costs down.

So while it's, it's true that it's, it's a tragic number, the 37,000, the question is what, and I'm not the 1 asking this question because I hate this question, but we want to find the cheapest sensor suite that creates a safe vehicle.

So In that uncomfortable trade-off, do you foresee LiDAR coming down in cost in the future, or do you see a day where level 4 autonomy is possible without LiDAR?

I see both of those, but it's really a matter of time.

And I think really, maybe I would talk to the question you asked about the cheapest sensor.

I don't think that's actually what you want.

What you want is a sensor suite that is economically viable.

And then after that, everything is about margin and driving cost out of the system.

What you also want is a sensor suite that works.

And So it's great to tell a story about how it would be better to have a self-driving system with a $50 sensor instead of a $500 sensor.

But if the $500 sensor makes it work and the $50 sensor doesn't work, who cares?

The longest you can actually have an economic, there's an economic opportunity there.

And the economic opportunity is important because that's how you actually have a sustainable business and that's how you can actually see this come to scale and be out in the world.

And so when I look at LIDAR, I see a technology that has no underlying fundamental expense to it.

It's going to be more expensive than an imager because you know CMOS processes or FAB processes are dramatically more scalable than mechanical processes.

But we still should be able to drive cost down substantially on that side.

And then I also do think that with the right business model, you can absorb more, you know, certainly more cost on the bill of materials.


Speaker 0: You said LiDAR came into the game early on and it's really the primary driver of autonomous vehicles today as a sensor. So How important is the role of LIDAR in the sensor suite in the near term?

Speaker 1: So I think it's essential. But I also believe the cameras are essential and I believe the radar is essential. I think that you really need to use the composition of data from these different sensors if you want the thing to really be robust.

Speaker 0: The question I want to ask, let's see if we can untangle it, is what are your thoughts on the Elon Musk provocative statement that LiDAR is a crutch, that is a kind of, I guess, growing pains. And that's much of the perception task can be done with cameras.

Speaker 1: So I think it is undeniable that people walk around without lasers in their foreheads and they can get into vehicles and drive them. And so there's an existence proof that you can drive using passive vision. No doubt, can't argue with that.

Speaker 0: In terms of sensors. Yeah.

Speaker 1: So yeah, it's pretty sensors, right? So like there's there's an example that you know, we all go do it many of us every day In terms of LIDAR being a crutch Sure, but but you know in the same way that You know, the combustion engine was a crutch on the path to an electric vehicle, in the same way that any technology ultimately gets replaced by some superior technology in the future. And really, the way that I look at this is that the way we get around on the ground, the way that we use transportation is broken. And that we have this, I think the number I saw this morning, 37,000 Americans killed last year on our roads. And that's just not acceptable.

And so any technology that we can bring to bear that accelerates this self-driving technology, coming to market and saving lives, is technology we should be using. And it feels just arbitrary to say, well, you know, I'm, I'm not okay with using lasers because that's whatever, but I am okay with using an 8 megapixel camera or a 16 megapixel camera. You know, like it's just, these are just bits of technology and we should be taking the best technology from the tool bin that allows us to go and you know, and solve a problem.

Speaker 0: The question I often talk to, well, obviously you do as well to, the sort of automotive companies. And you know, if there's 1 word that comes up more often than anything, it's costs and, and, trying to drive costs down. So while it's, it's true that it's, it's a tragic number, the 37,000, the question is what, and I'm not the 1 asking this question because I hate this question, but we want to find the cheapest sensor suite that creates a safe vehicle. So In that uncomfortable trade-off, do you foresee LiDAR coming down in cost in the future, or do you see a day where level 4 autonomy is possible without LiDAR?

Speaker 1: I see both of those, but it's really a matter of time. And I think really, maybe I would talk to the question you asked about the cheapest sensor. I don't think that's actually what you want. What you want is a sensor suite that is economically viable. And then after that, everything is about margin and driving cost out of the system.

What you also want is a sensor suite that works. And So it's great to tell a story about how it would be better to have a self-driving system with a $50 sensor instead of a $500 sensor. But if the $500 sensor makes it work and the $50 sensor doesn't work, who cares? The longest you can actually have an economic, there's an economic opportunity there. And the economic opportunity is important because that's how you actually have a sustainable business and that's how you can actually see this come to scale and be out in the world.

And so when I look at LIDAR, I see a technology that has no underlying fundamental expense to it. It's going to be more expensive than an imager because you know CMOS processes or FAB processes are dramatically more scalable than mechanical processes. But we still should be able to drive cost down substantially on that side. And then I also do think that with the right business model, you can absorb more, you know, certainly more cost on the bill of materials.

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Chris Urmson: Is Lidar a Crutch? | AI Podcast Clips